What I Wish I'd Known About Sales with Fred Copestake

Speaker A: Hi, everyone, and welcome to what I Wish I'd Known About Sales, the show where we learn all about the highs, lows and lessons from the front lines of selling. I'm Martin from Lead Forensics and today's guest is someone who's dedicated his career to helping salespeople stop doing what used to work and start doing what actually works today. Fred Copestej is a sales trainer, uh, coach and Author with over 25 years experience helping teams around the world sell more effectively. He's the founder of Brindis, host of the Sales Today podcast, and the author of books such as Selling Through Partnering, Skills, Hybrid Selling, and most recently, Ethical Selling. If you're early in your sales career or leading people who are, this episode is going to be packed with practical takeaways you won't want to miss. So, uh, welcome to the show, Fred.

Speaker B: Thank you for inviting me.

Speaker A: Good stuff. So you've worked with over 10,000 salespeople. Looking back, what's something you wish someone had told you before you stepped into your first sales role?

Speaker B: Something I wish they'd told me. I actually got some very good advice very, very early. Um, and that piece of advice was, which I'm pleased somebody told me, sales is about making the customer look good. Um, and I'm pleased I had that early from this individual who became a bit of a mentor to me because there was a lot of stuff going around at the time of late, late 90s, uh, yeah, mid-90s, which was all that kind of pushy, hard sell, greed is good type stuff because consultative selling was only just coming into the. Into, into the. For. So I guess I probably really looked out there getting that as advice early, um, rather than kind of. I wish you told me that five years ago.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So make, make the, the buyer the hero kind of thing.

Speaker B: Well, that's how we would describe it now. You know, we talk about the whole hero's journey, why that works so well, how you can sort of use stories kind of aligned to that as a, a way of telling people stuff. But that was just, you know, make them look good. The thinking around sales wasn't as advanced then. Like I say, consultative selling had only just really started to be, to be sort of, uh, taking hold. Everyone's still in that kind of close, close, close. Objection. Handling. Learned 30 different ways to sort of get someone in a headlock and hobble them into submission.

Speaker A: Fair play.

Speaker B: Don't do that.

Speaker A: So was there a time early on in your career when you fell into the trap of being, uh, busy, busy Busy. I know that's one of your phrases. Um, and what were you focused on that, in hindsight, didn't really move the

Speaker B: needle early in the career yesterday? It is something that we fall into with, and that's why I talk about it so much, is that we catch ourselves doing it, you know, busy, busy, busy, where we're running around doing loads and loads of stuff. We're being incredibly industrious. Yeah. We feel as though we're doing lots of things. End of the day, knackered. Loads of things crossed off the to do list. Uh, a good day. I've not really actually achieved anything though, or what I've done was to cross things off lists rather than the stuff that's really going to have the impact. Um, so, yeah, I mean, early in career I probably did that even more so. But it is absolutely something I'll hold my hand up and say, we all fall into the trap of. Yeah, anyone who thinks they don't are doing. They just don't realize.

Speaker A: So how do you. How do you spot that in yourself? And what, uh, tips. Have you got any tips for kind of getting back on track?

Speaker B: Yeah. So it's. I mean, that, that is one that literally that kind of writing something on a list so you can cross it out.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You've just literally done an extra piece of work too. But it, it is that. It's like, yes, I've done lots of things, but are they having an impact? Um, so one of the things, actually, I would say if you've just been running around all day and you've not actually stopped and thought about something, you are probably falling into that trap. Yeah. Or if you're in an environment where it's encouraged to be that, oh, what are you actually doing? I'm sat here thinking about. No, Right. You are probably falling into that trap. Because more and more. So just thinking about how we can have the conversation, how we could send the information that's going to be adding value to the person because we're helping them to think. And that involves kind of having insight and a perspective that they've not really got. That will be something that'll be a bit of a clue that you're just activity, activity, activity, activity, which might not really be doing what you need it to or what the customer needs you to do.

Speaker A: Yep. So I guess being a bit more strategic and taking the time. Taking the time to be more strategic.

Speaker B: Yeah, just more strategic, if you want to use that word. More thoughtful. Just getting yourself into their world and the stuff that they're going to care about. Yeah. And look, you might have an avatar, you might have kind of a very clear understanding because you're talking to lots and lots of very similar people. Unless you've done that. Great. But just, you know, stop and check and go. It is still that stuff, isn't it? I am talking about the problems that they've got, the challenges that, the stuff that they really care about.

Speaker A: Yep. Um, so obviously there's some old fashioned sales habits that are still surprisingly common. I know, you know, kind of spoke about, you know, mid-90s and that kind of high pressure selling kind of kind of thing. Can you tell us a bit about what you typically find when you're doing sales coaching?

Speaker B: Yeah, again we're alluding to it. So let's just underline that. It's that people are too self centered. Yeah. So you know, the, the old, the outdated tactic is, look, let me explain to you how bloody brilliant we are. Yeah. And if I do that, you'll be absolutely over, you know, in awe of us and want to talk to us because we will clearly have all the stuff that you need. Now all information's out there, isn't it normally. So people uh, are starting to figure out their own, their own solutions, their own problems and somebody coming in, talking about themselves. It's just you're making noise, you're getting in my way of solving something. I'm already down the track. Uh, right. You're distracting. You're actually distracting. You're stopping me. Do my job. So it's that kind of, hey, look at us, Map of the world. Aren't we ace talk about their problems. Yeah, that'll be what I'd say there.

Speaker A: Okay. Um, and what kind of made you have that realization? Because obviously at some point you were in sales and then you became a sales trainer. So you must have. What kind of was it that was there like a, a real moment that the light bulb went on or.

Speaker B: I'm not sure, there was a kind of lightning strike and you know, I saw the light. There's been quite subtle, I, uh, don't know and some not so subtle, but there's been shifts over time, you know, and you can sort of look back at evolution of sales and how things have sort of moved forward where certain things have kind of been on the spotlight as, oh yeah, let's do this, let's do this, let's do this. Which we should, uh, we should learn when I talk about this quite a lot, you know, the 50s, we take process, 60s, we take psychology and adapting behaviors. 70s selling benefits. 80s oh no music move on. Well, you still have to close but it's how you do that you've got to get commitment to next step. 90s consultative Naughty's value based. So there's these shifts have been taking place and what a smart salesperson would do now is be sort of looking back and going, is my sales approach pulling all these things into play? Have I benefited from that evolution or have I been taught something? Because sales has to be taught. I don't think you can be natural. You can't, you know, born sales, uh, that is stuck somewhere in the past. Yeah. So it's, there's no kind of light bulb moment. I don't think it's just that, yeah, these, these, this is a constant evolution. And then just keep on top of it because I think it's getting faster. The changes are getting faster.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, so you talk about um, the muddled mindset. How does this show up in early career salespeople and how can they build clarity faster?

Speaker B: Yeah. Organization has a lot of responsibility around this. Yeah. So maybe it's like saying, am I in the right place? Because, because what happens is it kind of cascades down. Organization says we are customer focused, we are buyer centric. This is how we operate. Nobody. Yeah, wonderful. Happy days. And then it gets the end of the month and it's like, ah, uh, well it's old enough. Get out there, push this discount that flog. And the manager's like, am I supposed to be a coach here or do I have a big stick of a spreadsheet saying come on, do this stuff. And the salesperson, what am I supposed to do here? You're telling me do this on one hand, but then you're asking me to do this on the other hand. I am confused here about what I'm supposed to be doing. So organization needs to be uh, to be picking up on that. And if you're finding your organization, do that regularly, I mean, ask yourself a question.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I suppose, um, carrot versus stick in terms of management or kind of. Can you tell me a bit more about your thoughts on that? Like um, well,

Speaker B: I don't know. Is carrot coaching? I'm not sure. I mean that's really what we want. Managers who've got time to spend with salespeople to help them get better. I mean we know that's going to have biggest impact. Yeah. Managers don't get paid for what they do. They get paid for what other people achieve. Okay. We end up with a model Mindset when managers say, yes, but I'm also a bag carrier and say all this, I'm in the trenches. Well, that's stupid language that they use. Um, because actually it means you are proud about being in a position where you can't actually do your job properly because your job is to help other people. And I know people push back and say, oh, you need to experience it, blah, blah, blah. Your job's to help people do their job better. That is what a manager is. If you don't want to do that, will be a salesperson, that's absolutely fine. But being a salesperson, because we know when the pressure comes on, they will revert into, yes. Well, I've got to do the selling bit, haven't I? M. No, you've got to get all the other people doing the selling bit.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So people might not hearing that, but hey,

Speaker A: so what role can a good sales coach or manager play in helping a rep stay aligned and focused?

Speaker B: Well, we've touched on it, just haven't we? Give time, give them time. Um, put time aside. And this can be scheduled stuff, but it could be impromptu. A water cooler coaching, I think it's called in the U.S. but yeah, we're all working virtually. We don't have water coolers. So anyway, um, but yeah, those, those impromptu kind of asking people questions, helping them get their head around stuff, because the answer is probably there. Maybe you prompt a little, you give more information, but that time that you give people to, to help them figure out the best way to do stuff, that's, that's, that's just so, uh, that's invaluable and so kind of, you know, using questions to help people think. Well, back to what a good salesperson is, actually. You are using your scale sales skills, but you're using them in a slightly different, slightly different way.

Speaker A: Yeah. So just, um, I can see the, the books behind you. So selling through partnering skills. What does a partnering mindset actually look like in action for someone who's new to B2B sales?

Speaker B: Yeah, so. So this is the secret to becoming more collaborative. I probably should have. Probably. I should have called that book collaborative selling. Hindsight is 2020 vision, is it not? But it was this partnering skills thing that I'd come across. Pq, the lesser known cousin of IQ and eq, where if we bake these into the way that we work, we will be sat more alongside the customer rather than trying to sell at them. And that's what's more conducive to success today. And I Came across these six elements of the skills which can be trained well, we can learn them, we can train them, we can, we can measure ourselves on them. And, and they are, ah, trust, okay. I mean that's the center of communication, relationships, everything else. And we talk about trust in sales a hell of a lot. Win, win, focus. Okay. I tend to talk about win, win, win now because our conscience is also important. That's the ethical selling piece. Uh, comfort with interdependence. Shorthand on this is the customer. Success is our success. We, they need to be successful. We are selling them an outcome, we're selling them results. Let's get head around that. And actually you're probably interdependent with some other people in our own company as well. Uh, transparency, open, honest, giving information, being clear. Again, tapping back into ethical stuff there. Comfort with change. We're often asking customers to do stuff differently, aren't we? Do different things. A lot of sales people aren't very good at this themselves. So you know, that's a bit hypocritical. And understanding what sales m. Change means for people is key and then having a future focus. So we're aiming towards certain goals, certain uh, results and how we sort of work towards that rather than always kind of looking backwards. So there's a lot going on in those six elements. But if you get your head around those and wrap them into the way that you sell, the way you go about doing stuff will be a lot more conducive success today.

Speaker A: Yeah, there's a, obviously a huge amount of insight there in a very short amount of time. So when someone's just starting out, how do they balance kind of learning that process and how to deal, balance that kind of stuff with building rapport and just the day to day getting the job done?

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I mean, and we're kind of coming to sales training which, which is my world again, strong opinions on this. And it's stuff that I've done, you know, the, the 2, 3, 4, 5. I've done five day training courses. You know, it's a lot of stuff to give people and then you ask a silly question at the end like, what are your three learning points? It's like, well, after five days, you know, then here's, here's a ton of stuff which we need to implement. So that's eating an elephant, isn't it? Break it down into small chunks. It's, it's sort of do a little bit at a time and that's how I've reconfigured All training I do now, which is, yes, there is a hell of a lot of stuff we need to cover. Uh, usually 15 elements that we need to get in place and locked in sort of people doing well. But actually we can do those through the course of a sale. So we can start off, we can identify real life opportunities, we can start to apply that first piece of thinking real life, because that's where real learning takes place anyway. Get ourselves ready to be comfortable with this so we can move on to the next bit. So we're kind of building on, building on, building on, um, and taking ourselves through that. So think about sort of spreading the thing out and just be realistic about the fact that you ain't going to learn stuff on a 90 minute lunch and learn session or what. You are going to learn stuff, but you're not going to learn everything. So having a plan to spread that if you're dead serious about kind of ending up in a better place.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I suppose you have to kind of test as you go. Right. When you're new to the role, you.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, yeah, that's what you're doing, isn't it? And that's where your coach comes into play. So it's okay, here's the thing that's new to you and actually if you're brand new, it's probably easier because you're not going to try and fight and say, yeah, but the way I do it is this. Okay, well you're being told to do it in this way for a reason. Yeah, let's put it into play, let's try it out. How are you getting on in that? What's working for you there? What changes might you make? I mean, this is coaching stuff. So again, that's how I build an accelerator. 90 days. There's sort of the training element. Week one, week two is the coaching element. You know, have you applied that? When you're getting on with it? Good. Right. We're ready for week three, bit of new stuff. Week four, coaching. So just get a plan like that, uh, little bit at a time and stick with your plan.

Speaker A: Yep. Um, and then in terms of the kind of the sales, training, coaching side of things, what kind of the best results that you've seen from kind of week one through to the end of the process?

Speaker B: Um, I mean, it's interesting how you define results, isn't it? I mean you, when you talk in actual sales, which I suppose we would, and I am very keen on making sure the training pays for itself. Uh, if it doesn't, I Mean, it doesn't make any sense, does it? You know, but I think it can. I do. I, I put my money where my mouth is. I, I wind a lot of people up by talking about guaranteeing sales training. Oh, you can't, you can't, you can't. No, you can't. You haven't worked out how to split the stuff up and drive the result to getting the fact that you've actually covered costs. Ideally you've got a, ah, multiple of it. So 10x is a classic, isn't it? We don't love 10x. Yeah. Um, but is that really the results we should care about or is it that actually we've now got somebody who, over the course of this, while selling and paying for themselves to do that training, are a better salesperson who's more equipped for going out and doing this with a solid framework again and again and again and again. I'd say that's the result really, isn't it? But uh, that's the outcome that we're looking for, that we future proof somebody and they're, you know, they're ready to rock and roll.

Speaker A: Absolutely. So from. Just talk a little bit about your books from selling through, um, partnering skills.

Speaker B: Let's talk a lot about them.

Speaker A: Let's give a little plug. So which, which idea from your books do you think would be the most surprising or challenging for someone who's new to sales? M. Or let's say more challenging for them to grasp. Um, but probably the most valuable if they do

Speaker B: someone new to sales. Uh, not everyone's a customer. Not everyone is a potential customer. Yeah, it takes two to tango. We're thinking from this partnering mindset and disqualify, qualify out, don't speak to people, don't waste your time. Get out of there early. That, that feels so counterintuitive to somebody who's never learned what Zelda is about actually trying to find who you don't want to speak to as much as you do so. Well, no. Shouldn't you convince them that. No, you're utterly wasting your time? Um, so to do that, then understanding kind of paying prize of the ideal customer, looking for them, seeing whether they actually feel like and care about it and kind of advancing the conversation based on it. That's probably what would surprise people who've never had any kind of exposure to sales at all. Because sales people actually try not to talk to some people.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, 100%.

Speaker B: So should we, should we turn them into customers? Oh yeah. Should find a way of doing that then. I don't know, maybe we should write another book, but I don't think that is ever going to be the case. Yeah, we're getting further and further from that, actually. That was the 80s stuff. And if you look at easy evolutions, we're more towards ethical and informed decision making and kind of all the rest of it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, how would you say your personal definition of success in sales has changed over the years and what should early career reps take from that? Or has it changed?

Speaker B: Yeah, it has changed. Um, I guess there's elements of helping people to be better. So because of what I do, that. That is a success for me. I mean, I've said it, haven't I? You know, customer success is your success. Well, you know, salesperson's my customer. If I help them get better, then, you know, I'm successful there. Um, I've got a lot more aware of time. Maybe as you get older, you've got less of it left. I don't know. Um, but how I use time and am I able to be successful in sales to make money? Yeah, that's why we do it. But with that money, am I able to buy myself more time? Can I get people to do the stuff I don't really want to? So I could do all the stuff I want to. I like trading people, you know, I like these kind of conversations. I like getting my head around concepts. Some stuff I don't like doing. So, you know, I can. I can. I can get the money to make myself the time. And I think that is different to how I would have been.

Speaker A: So is it you value time now a bit more than you did when you first started out?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. It's. I mean, it's. It's the most valuable resource, isn't it? We can control most other stuff, but we can't really control polymers. Time is fleeting. It doesn't look the song go.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So we just need to be dead, dead careful how we're using that and, you know, be smart about ways in which we can sort of leverage stuff to give ourselves more. If you like, or use it better, probably better way to do it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you've said, uh, that your goal is good people doing good things in a good way. What does that look like in practice for a new SDR or ae, who, you know, maybe they're under pressure to perform?

Speaker B: Um, under pressure. I mean, there's a couple of. If I just go through that phrase and why I use it, there's two levels to it, right? So the first level is having competent people who deliver results because they follow a process. Right. I mean if you're struggling to, if you're struggling to, to perform, it's like kind uh, of follow the process. It probably adds to that. But what would help you do that better? That's the sort of the deeper uh, definition of it which is having a. So decent folk who are doing things which have an impact because of the way they go about doing it. Yeah. Which is in a good sustainable, ethical way, which has led me to that. So yeah, I mean first definition isn't shallow but the kind of, the more deeper one, um, is, is kind of where I, I focus quite a lot and where that sort of leads us. Uh, and what sort of my thinking has taken me to with the ethical selling stuff is that it's checking that you're aligned with your values. And again, I wouldn't have Young Fred would be going, what on earth are you going on about, man? Just talking wibble. But I get this now. I'm quite sensitive to if I start to probably, well, not perform because I don't really want to do something or I stop feeling grumpy or I get grouchy or I just turn into a bit of a dick, to be honest. Sometimes it's because what I'm having to do or where I'm going doesn't sit with what I'm m all about. It's outside of my value. So I'm just way more aware of that. Keep myself in my lane. When actually even in the back of that book there's like a little values test or you can go online and find this values alignment stuff where you just understand what they are and just make sure that you're staying kind of consistent with what you're all about and then life is a lot easier. You don't fight, you don't fight against yourself, let alone everything else that's going on.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that sounds like absolutely great advice.

Speaker B: Now I'd have thought that's really woo woo before.

Speaker A: No, it's been like what. It does sound good.

Speaker B: Get yourself down the pub.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, and I know we started off kind of at the top with some sales advice. Um, one of my questions is what's the best sales advice you've ever received? So apart maybe apart from that one,

Speaker B: It's all about customer problems and ah, that, that's, that's. I don't know if that's the advice ever received or advice I would pass on, you know, because it's make Customer look good. Well, okay, let's just define that or take that into how we can practically apply that is understand what the customer problems are, help them solve that, then you know, you can be on a. On a good, On a good track.

Speaker A: Yeah, I kind of take the pain away.

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Understand the pain. So you have the conversation about the pain to take that away.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, now I think I might know the answer to this one. So I'm going to say excluding hybrid selling, selling through partnering skills and ethical selling, what's one book every salesperson should read?

Speaker B: Uh, that's a good one. I will say. I've forgotten what it's called. Um, I can picture it. To sell is human, right? Um, yeah, it's the Daniel. Daniel Pink one. Yeah. A little bit different. Everyone lives by selling something. It's. It's that type of. That type of thing. I mean, all. There's some brilliant stuff out there. I know a lot of other authors don't know Daniel Pink. Which one safe saying that because I said, what of the people I know who also knows. I know some of the others and I'm seeing some tomorrow.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Why do you call me up? Um, no, they went to no. Oh, I can say no. Look, there's tons of good ones. Um, what, what I would say if we take. I know these are supposed to be quickfire, but I would say you're better reading one a couple of times. And if, particularly if you get into it and you like what it said and going into it and extracting the goodness and doing something about it than kind of reading one because you're trying to read one a week and you want to put a picture on LinkedIn with 52 books stacked up. Hey, look what I did. It's like, well, yeah. What have you actually applied?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Implementation beats information every time. That's another of my little maxims.

Speaker A: Very, very true. Um, what's the biggest sales myth you'd like to bust?

Speaker B: Gift of the gab.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: Yeah. Look, people. People still say, oh, he's got the gift of the gab. He's going to be really good at sales. It's nice. It's listening, it's. It's asking good questions. Um, so I think, I think that one closely followed by, you know, the sales natural thing. Oh, they're natural salesperson. No, they're not sales. A lot of sales stuff is counterintuitive. Yeah. Um, and unless you have figured this, I mean, some people. Yeah, I guess they can figure it out. There are some people who Are disposed to doing the sales stuff very well, but. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. Favorite, um, metaphor you use when teaching sales.

Speaker B: Oh, I've just used it.

Speaker A: Okay, fair enough.

Speaker B: Oh, no, no, that's. That's a maxim. I said implementation beats information. Favorite metaphor. You know, I've got so many, and I now can't think of any. Uh, I mean, two takes, two to tango. I used that one a little bit earlier without just conversation. So I guess I use that quite a lot. Is the hero's journey a metaphor or a structure? I suppose you could, you know, I, I like journey. What I will tend to do again, if you're looking at a full training program that will crop up nearer the end when we're talking about presentation, um, because we're talking about a way to tell stories, is using that hero's journey structure. Um, where's the hero? And they're in the known and they don't know they're here. And something happens, call to action, ton of fights, challenges, different things, and come back bigger version of themselves. All Disney films are that, all Star wars films, all Harry Potter films back. And I tell it like that. Ah, because then we can structure how we put information forward. But actually what we then talk about is that you're not the hero. It's. You're the. You're the guide, you're the assistant. You're the one who's bringing the lightsaber or the magic wand, the invisibility cloak, the red slippers, the. Whatever it is. And so that, uh, actually, uh, is quite a good metaphor for what sales is about. You are the guide because you understand what their journey is going to be, and you're bringing the things to help them get to where they want to be better.

Speaker A: Very, very well explained. Uh, what would you say? Yeah, I thought it was great. What's one thing about salespeople that only other salespeople understand?

Speaker B: What's one thing about salespeople that only other salespeople understand? That when they're trying to think of something to say, they repeat the question back. And they all knew what I was doing there. Um, I don't know. Um, it.

Speaker A: I suppose what looks strange from the

Speaker B: outside work than a lot of people think it is. And, you know, I am from, um, a background where, you know a lot of. A lot of field sales, you know, going out and visiting customers and all that sort of thing. And, you know, back in the day, we had a company car, we had a credit card. We'd be in and out the office, taking people for lunch. My case, I was probably traveling from going abroad and this, and people just thought we were on a massive jolly. Okay, some stuff was quite fun, but. But what? It was. But equally there's the pressure because they didn't have targets. They were able to rock up at 9, leave at 5. It'd be like, well, yeah, you know, when, uh, I'm leaving here, I'm actually going to meet somebody. I probably were getting till 10 o'. Clock. You know, there's that sort of stuff that on the, on the outside it can look quite kind of glamorous and gorgeous, but there is, there's quite a lot of hard stuff that we've got to, we've got to do. Not least the pressures of hitting target and, you know, doing all the, all the stuff that we have to do, spinning the plates and everything else.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Um, right, well, that's it for today's episode of what I Wish I'd Known About Sales. Big thank you to Fred for bringing loads of value to this conversation. If you found this useful, don't forget to share this with the rep on your team who really needs to hear it. Thanks for joining us today.