Why reputation alone is no longer enough in legal marketing with Tricia Weener, Chief Marketing & Business Development Officer at Linklaters

B2B has the potential to be electrifying. But the industry is paralyzed by a culture of conservatism, scared stiff in a straitjacket of rational ideas. It's time for change. It's time to make B2B marketing visceral. Join us as we uncover and explore the Truth with leading B2B marketers. This is B2B Marketing the Provocative Truth. Hello and welcome to B2B Marketing the Provocative Truth. I'm. Hi, I'm Benedict and today I'm joined by Tricia Weiner, who is Chief Marketing and Business Development Officer at Linklators. Tricia, a very, very warm welcome to the podcast. How are you doing? Thank you, I am very well. It's great to be here and it's a nice sunny London day. Doesn't happen so often. It'd be a rare treat. We're going to be talking about marketing within the context of law firms now. I think that there's been, it's very, very well documented that the legal profession is going to, going through quite a transition. It's facing quite a lot of disruptive forces. There's been a lot documented about how fee structures need to be reevaluated. The whole billable hour is often questioned. So huge amounts of disruption. But one element which I don't think has necessarily been given enough attention is how law firms not only win business, but actually grow and maintain business with clients. I think that the sort of the traditional understanding of how a law firm works is that you have partners that have those really, really, really deep client relationships. And as a result of that there is almost an unquestionable loyalty that is built up. But we're seeing changes in the way that business is one within law. And also we're seeing a number of other sort of disruptive factors which I think is actually bringing that sort of traditional model under threat. So where I'd like to start this, this podcast is to get your perspect perspective on how changing buying behaviors are maybe putting stress on that traditional sort of partner led client relationship model. Yes, no, it's, it's a great question and it's a reality in the market. The market is for sure becoming complex and more competitive. And I think law firms are quite unique, in fact, that this has remained such a consistent, I guess, buying approach for so many years when many other sectors have been disrupted in a similar way to the disruption that we're seeing today. So I think the greater sort of evidence of procurement departments in again, legal services buying is changing things up. There are Much more formal processes as there are in many other buying processes. We've seen change way before this. So I think procurement is more visible in that buying process. That does then have an impact in terms of the sort of level of expectation around pitching and the sort of competitive side of how you ensure that you remain front of mind for clients and winning that all important for us most complex work in the market. I think the other thing for me, and you mentioned this before, is reputation alone, which has been so critical, is not enough any longer. You've got to have the breadth across your firm to be able to win, particularly in our environment, that highly complex cross jurisdiction, cross practice work. And that becomes an expectation for clients. And you've got to be able to demonstrate that deep expertise that you have across either all those practices or those jurisdictions to be able to be credible with those very large clients. And why do you think. And look, maybe it's me simplifying this from the outside and it's actually, it's been a gradual process, but it does seem that almost law is a bit of a sort of a last bastion of sort of a traditional model. Why do you think that maybe it's taken longer for law to be sort of impacted by some of these changes than maybe other other sectors? I'd say probably because of the importance of that partner or that team and their deep expertise in the area that the client is looking to buy and that that doesn't change drastically today. But I think the globalization of a large number of our clients, a continued globalization and the globalization of law firms to be able to bring the very best of the whole firm to clients means that that single deep relationship is no longer, it still remains important, but it's not the only relationship that you need to have across your client's business. You need to be able to build out that deeper coverage across the client's entire business and align with their structures to enable you to do that. So. So in terms of the model, it's probably more similar to how investment banking would work with their larger client relationships. You would have a global relationship partner, but then you have a significant client team that is there in support to make sure that you are building those deeper relationships and demonstrating your expertise in the different jurisdictions that you're doing business in. That's fascinating. I think that first I just want to sort of acknowledge there's the two parts, isn't it, that you talked about in terms of winning this bigger, complex work. You've got to bring that whole firm sort of proposition so that the role of the master brand is becoming more important. But I think what I'd love to sort of explore further is what you were just saying there around how relationships need to become multi level and different people need to have different roles. Now clearly it's unfair for me to ask you to sort of characterize how the law firm was sort of set up and now what sort of roles are necessary and what that looks like. But you know, as much as possible, would you be able to sort of talk about what does that need to look like in, in practice now for law firms and by almost draw on your sort of experience, you know, from banking. I mean, I think what you absolutely need to be able to do is understand what matters most to your client to be able to service their needs in the most effective way. And to do that you need to deeply understand the sector in which they operate. Yeah. The markets that they're operating in. And then to be able to apply that deep legal expertise to their needs. And that will be being much more proactive. And again, law firms have been very good at that historically in terms of providing that proactive advice around regulation change. But actually you need to be doing it in a more, I guess, cohesive way around those broader client needs as opposed to perhaps specifically in relation to a practice or a country or region. And I think it is still important, if you look at Europe as a region and regulation change there, we do need to be able to serve that to our clients where they have that European focus. But equally we've got to be able to draw on our expertise in the Middle east if there is a change that's going to affect a client of ours in the US So really understanding actually their business and where their business is operating and where they are going to have the greatest need for the sort of advice that we can bring to them so that we can be proactive in the information that we're sharing. Ultimately that builds trust and that builds that sort of, I guess, deeper relationship that enables our clients, those legal teams, to be successful in their role. Because ultimately they've got to be advising their boards, their executive teams in relation to these things. And that's something that we do hear from our clients very regularly, that that's the bit that they really value. And we need to be able to do that very consistently across our entire platform. Yeah. And so what I'm hearing there is that the proposition still needs to be built around that really, really deep, very specific skill set and understanding of the industries because fundamentally that is why they will choose linklators over, you know, another firm. That's what builds the trust. That's what's built. Builds the reassurance. But is there increasingly sort of a role for somebody or a group of people within the team to be thinking more sort of commercially in relation to how do we grow clients? And, you know, I came very close to saying the word growing, growing an account, which might be a bit of an alien term within law firms, but I think it's possibly sort of an analogous. Are you seeing an increased sort of commercial strategy within. Yeah, I mean, I think it's really important for every company, whichever company it is in the world, to have a really clear client strategy in terms of the clients that will benefit most from the services that you offer. And ultimately, that is a commercial strategy. Right. It's around thinking about those clients that actually are best suited to the services that you can provide. But through their lens, you are able to offer them a service that is distinctive and that is actually delivering to their needs because of the type of firm that you are. So I think having that clarity around your client strategy, that aligning to the firm strategy or the, you know, corporate, if it were in my old days, that corporate strategy is really important because then you can focus and create the prioritisation within the firm around that. I think if you don't have that, it's really hard to focus attention on exactly where it is you want to put your resources. And that's just. That's not just from a practice perspective. That's actually about thinking about all of the business services teams that support it because you want them align around those priority clients. And in terms of. Because you've talked there about how everything has to be, you know, ultimately there has to be the alignment. But this, this idea of having, you know, almost a documented client strategy, which has a very, very clear sort of connection to what the sort of the firm strategy. Is that something that has always been the case within law, or is it actually something which has been a bit of a. A difficult shift over the past sort of decade or so? I can't comment on that, actually, I think because I haven't been in legal services as you know, for that long. I mean, it's a core part of any really strong marketing strategy that you start with client segmentation, that you absolutely understand your client base and then you're able to align your services to that. So this is absolutely not a new concept. This has been around for decades. I think, in terms of how mature law firms are in applying these Principles because of where we started, and I think we started this conversation around partnerships in and of themselves are highly entrepreneurial. That historically absolutely growth and profitable growth has come from those individual partner relationships based on their specialization with clients. And the strength of that relationship has then enabled those partners and their practices to be very successful. I think today really understanding those clients at their macro level so very holistically and being able to open up those relationships where it's relevant for the client. Because of course you really need to understand their business to be able to then align your client strategy with their needs. But having that clear client segmentation, understanding where you want to deploy your resources in support of those clients. And that will be both at a practice level and for example with business development and marketing in our case. And do you see a tension, I think it's really interesting you the word entrepreneurial in relation to sort of how partners work. And I think that that's possibly not a word that maybe you'd automatically associate in terms of within law firm. I think it's absolutely right because I think that partner did have a high level of discretion. But we also talked about how ultimately this needs to be lined up with the firmwide strategy and there needs to be a really deliberate effort to segment and target. Do you find that there's any tension that exists between how partners want to manage entrepreneurially and how the firm wants to orchestrate the business? If you see what I mean? For sure. I mean, it is, it is very different. And I think the consultancies have been on this journey probably for a longer period of time than law firms. And I still don't think it's perfect there. I was talking to somebody from a, a consultancy business yesterday and sort of from my own perspective, having worked with a number in my different roles, sort of saying it always appears that they are operating client first and that they don't have this very sort of specific, you know, profit target that each partner is working to. The reality is it's a mix of both. Of course it needs to be client first. But there are very real targets that partners have to achieve in terms of, you know, revenue and profitability. So I don't think it's one or the other. And I think that on entrepreneurial flair has to be really brought to the fore. Yeah. Because it, you know, it's a critical part of a partner's role. And the more senior a partner becomes, the greater the expectation there is on being able to build those deep relationships and essentially drive business development. So the sort of core skill set of being entrepreneurial is still highly relevant. But I think what we need to do, as you've just said, is to make sure that it's focused in the right areas. And that means that you do need to have that clarity around your client strategy and segmentation. But feel free to say no, no, no comment to my next question, but have you ever, is there an almost an anecdote you could share of where there's been a bit of a difficult trade off, where there's been a short term incentive in terms of, well, look, there's an opportunity to, you know, get more revenue from, from this particular client. But that didn't align with the long term strategy of the firm. And obviously you could anonymize as much, as much as you want. But I'd almost, I'd love to be sort of just taken behind the scenes, you know, in a partnership model, specifically what that dynamic might look like. I can't and won't share specifics in relation to that, but I think, yeah, that that happens on a weekly basis and we have a process through which we will be assessing that new business. Yeah, those new business requests. And there are difficult conversations that happen and you know, both cases are heard. So it's, I don't think it's, you know, in all instances that there isn't any openness to consider a specific partner's desire to work with a client or work with a specific, you know, part of a client business. But I think you have to have those difficult conversations because otherwise behavior doesn't change. And in reality you won't get to the ultimate outcome because if all business just gets passed through, then ultimately you won't get to a point where you're being more focused and you're prioritizing as we discussed before. I mean, it was an eloquent and beautifully diplomatic answer. But you also did actually segue to, I think, which is where I was keen to go there because it's about having the right governance structures ultimately in place to make sure that those occasionally competing needs can be reconciled. Again, you can avoid the details, but linklators who absolutely are elite, as we were discussing at the beginning, in terms of a law firm, what does that sort of governance structure look like to make sure that we are reconciling partner priorities, firm priorities, what's the structure like? And also I'm really interested who are the individuals in terms of job roles that are involved in making those sort of decisions? That's quite a lot of information there. Sorry, I'll Simplify that governance structure. What is the government? No, I mean, I think there's two parts of this for me. One is making sure that there is clear alignment around the client strategy in the first instance, because I think if you have that, you are less reliant on the governance structures and actually those difficult conversations. So. So that's the first and probably most important thing. And then essentially what you're using governance for is it's really a sort of. It should be third line of defense. Yes. You know, and I always say this sort of first line of defense is, is your partners naturally knowing the clients that we should be serving and the type of business that we are best suited to deliver. I think second line of defense, I would say, is business development and marketing. Right. If these opportunities are coming through and the team is there supporting with pitching or, you know, proactive materials for those discussions, then again, that should be a point at which you can have a discussion about whether this is aligned or it's not aligned. And I think that the third part is what we were just discussing as part of the last question, which is actually, then there's a go, no go decision through a sort of formal body. Excellent. Now, I apologize, I often have a habit of getting greedy and overloading a question which is clearly what I did there. But you talked there for the. I think, for the first time and really importantly, around sort of, you know, marketing, within that sort of that conversation. What. What sort of, you know, voice have. Do you think that marketing needs having that conversation? And, you know, how have you managed to negotiate that within linklators? So we are, I think, midway through quite a significant transformation within business development and marketing. And one of the big shifts that we were looking to deliver as part of this was moving from being a much more reactive function. Yeah. That again, was more aligned at a practice level to a more proactive advisory role to the firm. And to do that, we have had to look at our operating model, we've had to look at the detailed design of the function, we've had to look at our data and our systems. And I think we're on a journey to getting there. But assuming that we get there, which is absolutely our desire, I think where. Where we would expect to be able to add more value is to be having those sorts of deeper conversations about our client targets, where we're spending our time, where there are opportunities within a client or where there are opportunities within a market to target other clients as a consequence of, you know, the business that they're doing or the Opportunities or challenges sometimes that we're seeing and that could be specific to a sector or it could be very specific to, to a client. So. So I think we recognize the need for change within our function to align to the needs of the firm. And with that change, we are also looking at the types of roles and the skills that we need within our function to be able to do that. And that has required quite a significant shift, which is challenging for the partnership and challenging for the business development and marketing team because it's really different to how it was before and changes. Change is hard. So really managing through the upskilling, we are investing heavily in data and infrastructure, but that takes time. That's not something that happens overnight. And you know, even with AI and I think AI is phenomenal and we're absolutely starting to apply. We have a number of different use cases in business marketing. But the reality is unless you have your data organized in a way that you can maximize the value, you can't scale. You can often do things on a more on a sort of smaller basis so you can pilot and prove that something can work with, you know, agent application. But ultimately you can't scale unless you have your data in a way that it is accessible to those agents. And do you think, because I was going to ask you, actually I said like almost what would be one, your one piece of advice to make sure that marketing's voice is heard and respected in a partnership model. And as we've been talking about like the. The partner is still royalty because of. They own the relationship. They've got that deep in the business, they. And then they quite literally own the business. That's the reality. So, so do you feel that it's that, that market data, that customer insight that is the, the unique quality that, you know, marketing can bring to the conversation and therefore be at the table by merit? I think it's credibility and experience as well as that. I think you've got to, you know, ensure that you have the very best talent within the function so that they can really use those tools. Because ultimately they are just enablers. And I say just, they're very important enablers that ensure that we can be successful but ultimately experience in a specific practice or with products or within financial services. If you're working in, you know, banking, actually those things count for a lot because you've been able to build your career by developing the expertise. I think, you know, we are highly reliant on our partners for business development themselves. They are really critical part of that business development process. But I think we need to be aligned around how we can best support them. But that shouldn't be reacting. That should be actually working in partnership with our partners to ensure that we are supporting them in the right places and that we have the right tools to do that. And in the same way that, you know, partners are expert in their specialization, we shouldn't expect them to be expert in business development. Some are phenomenal and others really require and actually seek more support. So it's then also adapting how we are providing that support and advisory service accordingly. And what do you think's been the, almost the most difficult shift, as you say, it's an ongoing process, the sort of the transformation that you're talking, talking about. But what's been maybe the most difficult shift or the one that's been met with the most resistance within a big partnership model like linguistics. I have to say we have been really supported through this. And I, I think it's because there is an acknowledgment that the world is changing. Because if we go right the way back to the beginning, you know, the world is changing so quickly. The impact on AI in relation to not only the sort of way in which, you know, clients are going to buy, but how we offer our services, the impact on pricing, as you mentioned previously, how, you know, I mean it's not pricing at its core, but actually how you price matters. There is, there is going to be, there's been huge change to this point that's only going to accelerate further as we move through the next few years. So I think there is a, an absolute acknowledgment that we have to align our business services teams, not just business development and marketing, but actually our business services teams around that shift. So it feels very supportive. And I don't want to, you know, not say that there are issues. Of course there are. I think that the biggest challenge is going to be this behavior change to truly seek advice and proactive guidance versus the sort of could you please do this? Or you know, I'd like to do X event or activity. And that is a shift that I think happens over time. You've got to get to a point where, and I would talk about it in terms of our ability to have a strategic plan in business marketing in terms of how, you know, that aligning to our firm wide strategy and to really clearly articulate that if people have that visibility, it makes it easier then for that change in behavior to happen. But I don't think it happens overnight. This is probably a two to three year period that I think would expect to see that change happen over. So it's almost, and I'm being slightly facetious when I sort of say this, but it's been, it's changing that sort of perception of marketing being a service center, again, I'm facetious, forgive me for it, but to be actually a true business partner and actually when I say business, I mean capital B business and small business because it's about being. I'm a partner to the firm that from an integral part of firm strategy but also when it comes to winning and growing business business, I'm an essential component within. Within that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the other, the other critical piece is the connectivity across the rest of them. So if you take sort of knowledge community. Yeah. You take some of our other business services teams, you need to make sure that that's all connected and that you're collaborating really effectively because actually any one part can't do that successfully. It's really important that we're collaborating and also that we're opening up any of the insight that we have so that we have transparency around data that ultimately might sit and be managed within bdm. But that transparency is there across the firm so that people can actively understand what matters to clients. They can get that insight, it's at their fingertips. They can see the frequency with which, you know, client meetings are happening, what's been shared. And it's really important that that is visible to everybody so that you're not creating logjams and people being able to successfully do what they need to do as. As part of their role. Yeah, yeah. And bringing the firm together. And do you think marketing almost has a unique place that they can do that? Yeah, I think, I mean this is something I talked about a lot before joining, but I think we're really the glue. Yeah. I've always said that we're in a very privileged position as marketing or business development and marketing in this instance because you have this true visibility across the company as it was before for me or the firm. Yeah. And so really helping glue together the other parts of the organization that perhaps don't have that visibility is a core part of our role. The bit that we need to be able to do really effectively is to ensure that that's strategic because I think sometimes there can be tactical needs which do seem to be very important in the moment, but actually it's holding TR to why we're doing certain things and then being able to. And this is not, you know, in relation specifically to partners or or the partnership, but actually also being really clear about why we're doing certain things and ensuring that that context is understood so that others can align accordingly. Happy to, you know, have conversations to be challenged around that. But, but actually are bringing people with you for me is a really critical part of that change curve. Because if you don't, I think particularly within a partnership model, things can stay very much the same and you won't see that sort of significant momentum around the change that you're trying to drive. That's interesting. Yeah. It would be great to talk about marketing as the disruptor, but where I'd just like to sort of close is maybe to. I mean we're clearly in a transition. I don't just mean the LinkedLaces transition, but that we're in a transition within law and I think it's a steeper transition than maybe other industries. As we discussed before. I'd be, I'd be fascinated to hear your sort of perspective on what you think almost the model might look like and maybe actually the law firm, maybe it's that big in sort of like five, five years time. I think we're going to restrict it to sort of like the marketing and business developments role. But what do you think the sort of the trajectory is? I mean I do think it will be quite different and quite similar. Yeah, so. So I think we will be able to automate a large number of activities that we currently do as a function, but the human element is going to remain absolutely critical. So I think that there is an opportunity around end to end process to look at actually how we can automate elements of the end to end process. For sure, AI we can apply in many instances to create efficiencies and improve productivity. That goes without saying. But I think what I would like to see is that the business development marketing function is then really driving more value around things like client strategy, client and market intelligence where the biggest opportunities are helped and supported by really good infrastructure and tech. But actually ensuring that we are targeting our resources so our people very specifically in the places that we are going to be able to drive the right sort of growth. Yeah, no, that's really, really interesting. And first, thank you so much for the conversation. I think it's been, it's been absolutely fascinating and I think almost a bit of the recurring thing or maybe how I'm sort of thinking about it is, I mean you described, you know, marketing as glue and actually I feel that we probably can offer a bigger compliment and a more exciting future. And I'm Going to borrow another word that you talked about and you talked about architecture, but actually in many respects what I'm hearing as we go through this transition that if not marketing, then who provides the architecture for growth within an organization? Now that's not to say that marketing has all the answers, although clearly it does need to play a very important role in terms of bringing that insight but recognizing that it's, it's partner expertise, partner skill sets, partner reputation which is going to ultimately win business. The role of marketing is to create that sort of architecture and infrastructure within, within a firm to allow them to operate successfully and also to bring together the disparate components in order to make sure that we can sort of. I say we, I'm not in law, but that we can, you know, drive forward and sort of realize that corporate or firm wide strategy. Yeah, I mean I, I used a glue as a. Because I'm going to sort of align around what you're saying then. Yeah, marketing has a much bigger role. No, no, no, I know but, but I, you know, I think in terms of one of the important opportunities that we have is to be able to provide that more holistic view. So coming back to your other point, I, I think yes, marketing is there as a support in terms of being the growth, the, the support to the growth engine if you like, for the firm. I think it is absolutely critical that you have all other parts of the firm aligned around that. Which is why I come back to the importance of a firm wide strategy. So really sort of clear strategy for the company and then specifically within that clarity around client strategy and a BDM plan, a means by which you know how you are going to be able to deliver what you've set out to deliver and also a really clear way of actually assessing the impact of that and then iterating because you're not going to get everything right. And I think that again is something which is quite, it's quite new. I think there have been elements of that, but I don't think that there has been that really clear alignment for business development as a function in terms of what we are there to do, what we are going to be highly ambitious around and then how we're going to I guess hold ourselves accountable around that. And that for me is a really big opportunity and that will include some of the enablers, the things that we have to have in place to enable us to get there. Yeah, I think it's a really, really exciting role to play and you know what the right sort of analogy is. But you know exactly what you said there, which is about how marketing has that responsibility to take that firm, one strategy to make sure that that is translated across the organization and actually to an extent, I think driving it as well. You know, I think that there is a really, really important role which you are the sort of the people that are pushing to make sure that that edge realized. So I think it's a really exciting future. I think there is going to be a hell of a lot of change within law firms for a number of different reasons. And I actually feel that it will be to the advantage of marketing and business development within the sort of the context of the overall sort of firm hierarchy as well. I very much hope so. Looking forward to leading the charge. Indeed. Indeed. Well, thank you so much. That was a really, really fascinating conversation. Thank you, Manny. Great B2B marketing the provocative Truth is brought to you by Allen Agency. To find out more, head to allen-agency.com you can stream B2B Marketing the Provocative Truth on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or anywhere else. Great podcasts are found and don't forget to click subscribe to ensure you don't miss out on any future episodes. 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