Deploying Agentic AI for Legal Support with Logan Brown of Soxton | The Innovators & Investors Podcast

Speaker A: Welcome to the Innovators and Investors podcast. I'm, um, Christian Marquez, founder and CEO of Finstrap Management. At Finstrap, we provide CFO led accounting, finance and reporting services to assist clients monetize their business. Stick around to the end of the podcast and I'll share how you can be our next guest. Now, uh, on to the show.

Speaker B: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Innovators and Investors podcast. I'm your host, Christian Marquez, founder and CEO of Finstrap Management.

Speaker A: With us today, got Logan Brown.

Speaker B: Logan is the founder of Soxton.

Speaker A: Logan, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker C: Thank you. Super happy to be here.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, so why don't we start with Soxton? What problem is it solving in the marketplace?

Speaker C: Yep. So Soxton is an AI powered law firm and we position ourselves as an AI powered outsourced general counsel for early stage startups. And so before a startup has any sort of in house gc, we're able to do the routine legal tasks for a fraction of big law prices. And so we charge $100 per contract with the lawyer in the loop always.

Speaker B: So I was going to ask what was the inspiration, but I saw on your CV that you went to this little unknown law school called Harvard. Uh, yeah, that had something to do with it, but I'm all ears. What inspired you to start the company?

Speaker C: Yeah, so, I mean, the story is a little bit longer than that. So I grew up in Lawrence, Kansas. I'm going to tell the abbreviated version, but when I was 12, um, I walked into the DA's office of my hometown with my 12 year old middle school CV and I asked for a job because I wanted to be a lawyer. And there was a secretary there named Dolores who let me be her personal intern for the summer. And that became an internship I did throughout my middle school and high school years. And at the same time I taught myself how to code and was loving to like technology and computer. And so I wrote my common app application when I was applying to undergrad about the gap between technology and the legal system. And so I mean, obviously AI did not exist then, but this has kind of been a problem that I've been interested in a long time. And so when the time came for me to go to law school a few years ago, I was still interested in the intersection between law and technology. While at Harvard, I started a couple companies and really started hanging out at Harvard Business School and MIT Sloan. And I became very invested in folks that were starting companies and inspired by them. And so after I graduated I went to A law firm called Cooley. And Cooley is the largest law firm in the US for startups. And while I was there I was seeing like innovations in technology and how AI was really transformative for my clients work, but I was seeing how little of it was being used in law firms at that time. This is different now. I think that law firms are stepping it up, but I think that there is a different way to be a lawyer. And I left to be able to provide more access to legal services for early stage startups. And just from first principles viewpoint of what it means to be a lawyer

Speaker B: in a law firm, uh, I'm curious, do you remember what, what it was that sparked uh, the interest in working for Dolores?

Speaker C: It was I think like many middle schoolers, I think it was a combination of Law and Order, SVU and Legally Blonde. I think I saw it on TV and I was like, that's very cool. But I am appreciative of my parents that they encouraged me and like drove me to the DA's office. And I'm like forever grateful for Dolores, for, for letting me participate in the, in the DA's office. Throughout my childhood. It's like truly, what I did, it's where I would go after school, school. It's. There was a hearing that I wanted to continue to listen for like an entire course, uh, cases, the course. I would miss school and I would go watch it. Um, I would like. I was, I learned how to drive with the DA's office attorneys. It's like truly where I grew up. And that's a very unique opportunity that I had and I'm forever grateful for the Douglas County DA's office for, for letting me do that. It changed my life.

Speaker B: M. Well, shout out to them. That's fantastic. Yeah, so, okay, so now fast forward. Um, you know, you start to get exposure to the law technology in the Boston area, obviously no shortage, um, in the ecosystem. And uh, then you spend time at Cooley. So when you were at Cooley, obviously great law firm, number of clients use them, uh, what were, what were some of the biggest takeaways that you had working, uh, there and then as it relates to startups?

Speaker C: Yes. So I think that I was also coming from the unique perspective of having started multiple companies when I was in law school and I interned for like a Sequoia vaccine stage startup. And I had all of this like operational experience and then suddenly I was on the lawyer side of things. And I think that when you're a lawyer acting as a startup attorney, especially when you're first starting out if you, it's easy to just like be like legal like eyes only. And I think when you're a startup attorney there's so much business takes that have to be taken into account for whatever a uh, startup is trying to do. But I had a phenomenal time at Cooley. I'm like forever grateful for the attorneys there also. I think it is a great place to start your career. I think I was trained by the best attorneys in the business. I uh, left with like a very deep appreciation for my clients. I think that I am and I in my, in my current practice now we have about 500 customers of Stockton that are all uh, early stage startups and being able to witness folks that could otherwise do some, some other lucrative career, just something else with their time really to be like I'm going to change this world and I'm going to give it a go. I think that that's so inspiring and I think that at Cooley I really learned how to be a partner to those folks and how to think about using the law in the best way possible. I ultimately left because I think that there's a better way to do it now that AI is a technology that is transforming what it means to be a lawyer and that's important. But I think also what needs to be disrupted within the legal system is the business model itself. Like the billable hour I think no longer makes sense. I think it hasn't made sense for a while and it's something that isn't tolerated in a lot of other industries. And so that's why I left. And I think I'm not trying to displace coolie. Like we're really focused on being a more equalizer type of company. We want to like allow more people to get access to high quality legal than the previously they did because the coolie rates while in excellent firm are very high. And I want to bring that type of quality uh, wiring to everyone.

Speaker B: Well, I mean it makes really good sense. I mean obviously there are great lawyers at regional uh and national firms alike but there's still a uh, long pole on the 10 of what's their early stage company's budget. Yeah, uh, and so you know the problem you're, you're looking to solve by making it affordable to bring best in class uh, expertise uh, to founders is meaningful. Uh, I can't tell you how many times you know I've, I've seen after the fact founders accept uh, a term sheet or enter into a note where it's Just so lopsided. And had they, you know, hired a CFO or engaged a lawyer and had someone tell them don't sign this, um, you know, they might not have found themselves in the position that they were.

Speaker C: I think that that's a problem that we see. Do we actually do term sheets and side letters for free? Because I was also recognizing that this was an. I think sometimes founders, especially first time founders, they're so grateful that somebody is investing in them and they view it as like a favor and it's not a favor. I think that there it is a business agreement. People are investing in you because they believe in you, but also because they think that there'll be a return on their capital. And I think that side letters, often investors at first pass will include as many possible rates and privileges for the investment firm as possible. And it is expected and very common that a founder will uh, negotiate those and make sure that the company is in the best spot to go forward and removing any sort of administrative headaches. Just like thinking through all of that. And I think sometimes first time founders don't do that because they're just so happy to be receiving a check whenever they should be. And so if you go to stocks and like we will like look at it, at it for free and we will tell you like we ascribe percentages and like we're keeping track of what's market. And so like these information rights are like 80% more um, administratively burdensome than other companies at this type of stage. And so that's just a favor that I wanted to do to all founders because it's like I think I want to create the startup world that I would like to exist in. And that's like one piece of it.

Speaker B: So it makes, makes great sense and I would imagine too it also, you know, for it's so fun. I'm amazed how I continue to meet people who have not yet, you know, opened up their own chatgpt or claw Gemini account yet and you know, maybe not have accumulated experience in that. While the technology is really powerful, it is, uh, it's still not perfect. And uh, specifically it requires context. Um, I'm sure no one's ever asked you about, you know, the stories you read in the news about lawyers submitting briefs that contain hallucinations and the judge take it into.

Speaker C: Yeah, judges are frustrated, but I'm curious,

Speaker B: so how are you controlling for that? And then, you know, how do you, how do you see this, how do you see the role of a lawyer

Speaker C: evolving alongside a Soxton Yeah, so we control for, for hallucinations, any sort of errors. With ChatGPT or Claude extensively, we have a proprietary tooling built on top of the existing models and we have a number of agents, like we have 17 different quality control agents that are able to detect specific issues that are regularly reoccurring. I think that the main thing is that we are large. We never use AI to draft a contract from scratch. We have our own template database. I think that Claude and ChatGPT are excellent tools for folks to get context and understanding of broader legal concepts. But whenever you get into the minutia, there's a joke that lawyers are. The answer to everything a lawyer asks you is, well, it depends. But that's because the law is complex and nuanced and so lawyers are usually trying to get something at that. Whereas like chat bots are um, expected to be concise. They're trained to be concise and determinist and like present things confidently. And so, um, our tools will pull from our own like attorney reviewed and vetted templates, update it with company information, and then we have a whole suite of quality control. But I think that the most important thing is we have lawyers in the loop for everything. Two lawyers, all of my lawyers have worked at one of these top name startup, um, law firms for at least five years, four and a half years. And we're just double checking everything to make sure that the types of stories that you're seeing online don't happen here. And I think that that's one of the things that we can do because we're building it from first principles, like we're like AI first, like how to use this in a very responsible way and also pass along that savings to a startup. And I think that that's like some of the issues that folks at bigger law firms and I feel for these associates that are making these types of mistakes. I can see how it would happen. It's like a new type of typo and they're getting roasted online. But we're very conscious of Stockton. I think that as attorneys progress in the next five years, I regularly say that I think that we're in like the yellow Pages era of being a law firm. I think that the legal field hasn't been disrupted in 100 plus years. There has been real, no meaningful innovation like the Internet came, it was adopted within big law, but the practice, like the business model and what it meant to be a lawyer fundamentally stayed the same. And I think technology is changing what it means to be a lawyer. And we're also seeing like unprecedented levels of investment in legal technology. And so I think there's no way, um, the legal industry looks the same as it does in five and 10 years. I think that some law firms will be skeletons of what they were. I think that some law firms that do things that ultimately doesn't make sense for humans to be doing at $1,000 an hour are not no longer around. I think that there are more lawyers than before because I think that there are now more people that are able to access the judiciary and more people that are able to generate contracts and start businesses. And so I think just what it means to be a lawyer is changing. And right now at Stockton, um, being a lawy lawyer means double checking AI and like really thinking through how to make this a better product and experience for our customers alongside product feedback loops and also just like copying on calls with our, our clients. But I think that in five years it'll also be a different, a different type of role. And I tell lawyers all the time there's never a better time to be a lawyer because the uh, boring soul sucking parts of this job are going away.

Speaker B: I admit I look at MSAs and just investor docs and I'm like oh my gosh, God bless you.

Speaker C: I think that there's a reason why lawyers are so unhappy. Like it's such a stressful job with like very high stakes. Mistakes are not tolerated. But you're like in the fine details of things and like it largely doesn't end up mattering because the con, like a lot of things have to go wrong for the contracts to matter. They do matter. Like folks should pay attention to them. But there's a reason that lawyers are unhappy. But it's going away like now the advisory, the thinking part of being a lawyer matters far more than ever before.

Speaker B: Yes, we see the same exact thing on the CFO side. 100%. Um, so, and I think you may have alluded to it, but let's, let's if we can unpack your go to market strategy. So obviously you have your, the tech, the core technology and I heard lawyers on the staff. But have you structured. This is exclusively a software or is it software as a service?

Speaker C: It's. We are a law firm and so we're, we're delivering outcomes as a service and so we don't sell to other lawyers. We, we exclusively excel to startups and so in small businesses we engage startups. We are, we represent you as a lawyer. We have malpractice insurance, we have lawyers that are Directly providing legal advice. And I think that whenever like whenever I think of legal tech is very hot right now in the VC world I kind of put it in a few different buckets. Like there's like the Harvey and Laura which has like they're like the darlings of Silicon Valley that sell into the big Amlog 100 companies and like there's the GCI which are also getting the most investment right now selling into in house legal teams and then there's a new wave of startups and I'm amongst them of like the AI powered law firms and I think that that's also a fad where it's like we're delivering the results. I've raised ventures so I'm on the venture train and I'm really going for it. But it is very much we, we have the propriet software but folks can expect to just like treat it like they come onto my platform, they are able to email my platform and be like I need X contract and within 24 hours and $100 you will get a attorney reviewed contract back to you.

Speaker B: Love it. So and you're coming. Uh, this is year two for Stockton.

Speaker C: Uh year one we're ten months in two months.

Speaker B: Oh wow. Oh okay. And so um, let's talk about how you think about, about go to market. Um, you know distribute agency around distribution is core for successful founders. How have you approached it right now?

Speaker C: I mean we're leading into product led growth right now. I think that we're pretty unbeatable on pricing to be able to get the type of like all of my lawyers are a lot of experience and they have created our contracts and so to have a contract that mirrors big law review by a big law attorney for a hundred dollars is unbeatable in this market. And so we average, we have a very rob um referral network from our existing customers which I'm very proud of. We have a pretty long wait list at the moment. But I think that as I think about actively having a go to market motion which is something we haven't invested in but we're about to it's really just working with founders to be where they are and make sure that sox like known in the industry. I think that this is a new way to practice law but like Stockton's not known yet. And so I think that we're obviously just being the solution to the problem that lawyers are expensive and that folks don't necessarily want to spend money on templates or for things that should not be thousands of dollars totally Makes sense.

Speaker B: Uh, and let's talk about. So on that note, um, you know, you have to make decisions around your budget. Usually on these conversations, I find the big ones are, you know, do you focus on product, uh, development or sales and marketing? And definitely different opinions, uh, from different founders. But love, love your perspective.

Speaker C: I think that this is one of the areas where AI has really made it less of a choice. Like, I think that my. We have an engineering team and they are excellent. Like, I'm very proud of the. The employees that we have at Sox. And I think everybody here is like a 15 out of 10 a plus player. And so we have an engineering team and they are able to like, really utilize the tools to have 15 weeks worth of old development ways of, uh, updates in a week. And so I'm very. I've been very proud of our product. And we have implemented product feedback loops that are pretty extensive with the lawyers. And so we've been really able to deliver on services. I think that whenever you're delivering results and outcomes, that has to be the primary focus, like, delight customers and it will continue. Um, but that thus far has been very fruitful. But I do not. I also subscribe to the belief that, like, you can have a great company if nobody knows about it. You don't have a company. And so focusing on distribution also really matters. And I don't have. I'm like, splitting down the middle. I think you don't have to choose anymore. I think you need both. And I think that that's why being a founder in the AI world is so hard, is because the product has to be there because everybody can get the product to where it should be. But then breaking through the noise of everybody having this type of product is challenging.

Speaker B: Uh, I think your assessment's spot on. Okay, so now you're coming up on two months away from your first anniversary. What are some of the beliefs that you held when you started the company that has sort of been challenged and changed?

Speaker C: Oh, my goodness. I think that you. I think that like, like planning for six months ahead, uh, is no longer the right move. I think that, like, the technology that people that exist and the way that founders operate. Like, I'm meeting founders at the earliest stages of their. We. We service anybody that does not yet have a gc. So half of our customers have raised and they have, um, like a series A, series B companies and they have like, a cool lead that they've engaged and they use us in conjunction with them. But half of our customers have never raised before. First Time founder. This is like the entry point and the technology that is change, changing what it means to be a founder, how agents are able to do things. And so like the services that we need to provide are also changing month to month with every sort of upgrade and new wave in tech and startups. We have to be able to adapt. And so I think that I have like my overall goals for 12 months and six months but they need to be loosely held because I, as I reflect back on the last 10 months, the, the day to day has changed significantly. I think that I also like we're uh, a pre seed company where I'm raising seed. But like we're a pre seed company and, and my, I think as people say, like the overall goal you built, you build the company to figure out what you should have built. And so we spend. So all of. I spend the vast majority of my time talking to my customers and figuring out like the best way to create solutions and so a lot of those types of things. But I don't necessarily have regrets. Like I think that we, we have tech debt, we have like things that don't. People don't use that we've built that I think that you have, we have to do. Whenever you're figuring out what works and what doesn't work.

Speaker B: Oh, 100%. I mean, yeah, I mean action is just key and an appreciation that nobody knows the answers to every single question. And so there's a tremendous amount of iteration that takes place.

Speaker C: Yeah, I've learned that.

Speaker B: Yes, well you touched on my next question. That was just your own uh, the company's own financing. So I heard you say you're in the midst of a sea. Did you do any uh, friends or family before that?

Speaker C: I raised two and a half million at pre Seed. I was lucky enough to like I quit my job and had a term sheet really fast like same day. And so I raised the seed round, a precede round very quickly and that's what we've been operating out of and and we are getting ready to go at it again. I think that we are in the era where you have to move very fast as like everybody is. And so I'm fully on. On the venture train.

Speaker B: Was the pre seed venture?

Speaker C: Yes. Yeah, it was uh, like 6, 6, 5 institutional funds and a number of angels.

Speaker B: And what was the experience like? I mean getting a term sheet one day. Super high five.

Speaker C: Thank you. Um, I don't like to phrase it like that. So like I knew I wanted to be a founder. Like I started companies when I law school, I worked at Cooley. Like, I had always, like, engaged going back and forth with being a founder. I think that now that I'm in this role, sometimes founders are like, oh, because there's been some articles about how I race super fast. And I don't think that that's. I think I really raised for, like, six years. Like, I, like when I was at hls, I was making friends with my friends at hbs who became VCs, and I was staying in touch with them. And whenever I had ideas, I would be like, what do you think about this one? And so I had a number of people that, like, knew me and then, like, like, were, like, ready to back me whenever the time was right. And so it wasn't like, one day I just, like, decided I was going to do this. I'd spent a lot of time in the industry and, um, I, I am very grateful for my, for my funds and, like, my cap table. I'm a huge fan of everyone on there. I think something I really prioritized was making sure that I had operators. I wanted folks that had been in the trenches before and could be like, the folks when things are hard, as they often do. Like, I think being a founder is just solving problems and, like, a disproportionate number of bad things happen every week. And finding folks that, like, have some empathy from lived experiences is something I prioritize. I also spent some time at Cooley, so, like, I had represented a bunch of startups there and I had done. And also funds. And so I had, like, done the paperwork for funds to, like, fire founders. And so I was really paying attention about, like, how folks speak to founders and, like, figuring out who would vibe with my personality and all of that. But overall, it was a pleasant experience. I mean, I got my fair share of rejections, like everyone does, but. But it ended up in a positive spot.

Speaker B: Well, you know, I think you highlighted on something that, uh, maybe doesn't get talked about. We read the headlines and you don't appreciate what's taking place in the background.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So high five to you for having the wherewithal to play a long game. I think that's great. Uh, and thinking ahead, uh, and so. Okay, so I, I know you touched on that. The world is going to change in the next five to 10 years. I agree 100%. And we may be totally, uh, off base, but let's just say we go to this world where we approach superintelligence. Uh, how do you see the role of the human Lawyer evolving.

Speaker C: I think that there will be more lawyers than ever before. I think that that will the introduction of superintelligence. I think even with where AI is at now, there's more AI generated contracts, there's more inner AI generated legal needs. I think that we will not have enough litigators in this world to be able manage what happens to our court systems. Like there are already a number of like pro se, like individuals representing themselves using AI to act in the court system. And I think that as that becomes easier and more accessible and you have like bots that are crawling looking for specific issues related to plaintiff lawsuit, I think their courts will be inundated and also not probably the last to adopt any sort of technology to manage it. And so I think that that's like a real issue that we'll solve. I think there'll be new types of law that is created. I think that like whenever I start thinking about agents and agents using Internet like that, using web, um, like financial services and credit cards, I'm starting to think about all the contracts that should probably exist and how like none of the websites, terms and conditions really take account for this and what's going to happen and what if an employee misuses an agent? There's all sorts of new laws that is going to exist. I think that what will go away is the boring stuff. So like I tweeted about this, it got some attention but it was like uh, when I first started at Colby, my literal first job was to go through a pay signature packet list and make sure that signature lines like the length of the signature line were the same length and all of them were bolded. That was my job and I had no. There's so much stuff like that and somebody paid, I think it was like $600. I think somebody paid $675 an hour for me to do that. And it's mind numbing if you mess it up. Mid levels are upset. It's like it's a horrible. That kind of thing is going to go away and rightfully so. And those are things that people shouldn't be paying for anyway. And so I think that that's like what folks is like if you're like pretty broad, like the number, what it means to be a lawyer is expanding their job. Like I am hiring lawyers for jobs that did not exist whenever I was graduating from law school. There's going to be more types of jobs, they're going to be more interesting. You'll have to think more and you won't have to do that portion of the work. And so I think that looks like that. But I do think that things that previously required a lawyer won't anymore. And so it's just in a change field like many things do. And I think that. But I think that to the extent that we can embrace that and not get upset by it, that would be good. But I also understand like there's a lot of anti sentiment and it is scary and the headlines are scary. So I am sympathetic to that. But I think that the solution on my mind, but I is to still embrace it and learn and like it's happening whether we like it or not.

Speaker B: I agree with you and again, I think you're spot on. Um, as I was listening though, you gave me some inspiration, but I presume this may already be on your roadmap. So one of the things I think about are, you know, financing terms.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Uh, uh, obviously they vary deal to deal. But uh, now you, you over time will be in this great position of having a repository.

Speaker C: We do, we do financings, we charge very little for them. And we also have the, we have a critique. We have a very good understanding of what terms are being accepted by which funds and who is caring about what.

Speaker B: And so building on that, one of the things that I think is, is in the cards for every industry is transparent.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: It will be a lot easier to understand where. What the average is. Um, how do you think about that in, in terms of uh, the work that you're doing?

Speaker C: I think. Okay, so one of the. This has been an issue that I've had with the legal system in the judiciary since I was in law school. And one of the cultural tenets it's like written into our thing at Saxon is like no, Latin. Like the legal system is a protected profession and part of that profession is built on potentially creating, confusing, obscuring what things actually mean. Whenever you boil down what's happening within most contracts and most of the law, it's just English. Like you can get to a point where it's pretty simple. Like none of this stuff is really that hard. It matters a lot. Like the consequences are real, but it's not that hard to understand. And so I think that this is like a great thing for society. Like the laws that were built upon more people will be able to understand and have access to and things explained well. And so I think that, I think that we're still a bit off from people like entirely doing that. Like, I think that that's one of my goals with Stockton and is like AI is wrong. I think it's great at explaining ideas, but whenever you're like, having that deal on the line or it's like that type of contract, you probably want somebody to look at it just because of, we know all the issues with it. But I think that we're getting to a point where people feel more comfortable expressing their rights in having the technology, which I think for me, like within sox, then the benefits of that are like, the, um, entry point to entrepreneurship has never been lower. Not only is it easier to pull things, but to get to the permits and the incorporations and making sure, like a baseline of like, oh, like, can I do this? Never lower. And that's awesome. Like, I think that allowing people to start their own thing and not be fearful because they don't understand something, it is a benefit that we should all be celebrating.

Speaker B: Agree 100%. All right, so let's talk about, um, the lead in to soxton. You, um, mentioned that you started some companies while you were in, in Boston. What did that. What. What were the companies? What was the experience like, and how did that inform how you run the company today?

Speaker C: Oh, my goodness. Uh, every bit of it. So I'm very proud of, like, the first company which still exists that I started while in law school. It's called Spencer Jane. It's a machine washable pantsuit. And so when I was in my first year at law school, I needed a pantsuit and I was like, this is an incredibly frustrating experience. Like, where does one find this? Why are they all ill fitting? What's the what? Where do my friends go? Apparently this is a common problem. And I really just like, couldn't get my mind off of it. And I started across and rolling at hbs and I ultimately created a pantsuit that is machine washable. The arms are intentionally longer than other than other sleeve links because folks don't want to get them tailored. And so they're designed to be rolled. They create an hourglass figure. Like it's like a whole thing. But I learned so much in that process. I learned how to like source fabrics. I found a fabric that I liked from a fancy brand. I added everybody on LinkedIn from this brand until somebody told me the Fabric Method mill, which is place in Italy. And they connected me with a factory who had a son my age who spoke English. And then the parents, like, were like, so nice. They're like, okay, well, like, take a chance on you. And so my factory is the same factory that does like Dolce and Gabbana and Montclair and all these fancy brands. And um, so I learned like, the actual process of how to do something like that, how to source fabrics, about sizing, like, numerous things that I couldn't even think about, how to get things in through cut customs, and then also how to do distribution, like how to learn how to like, market pr, how to figure out how to get customers, what people like, managing inventory, all of these types of things. And so, uh, I'm so grateful, I think, for that experience. And I tell folks whenever they're like, how do you start a company? Or like, can I do this? Just do it. Like, I think that, like, the process of doing it and figuring it out teaches far more than just like asking people about how to do it. Like, you just gotta figure it out and then you'll, you'll make the mistakes and learn from it as you go. And so I think we were talking about this earlier. This is like what I tell my team here is like, whatever, like, let's just do it. We'll either learn that it works or we'll learn that it doesn't work. And then we'll figure it out after.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: Yeah. There's no substitute for doing. And I, uh, it's interesting. I mean, we probably devote an entire episode as to why more would be. Entrepreneurs don't take the first step. I suspect the answer is that part of it is a fear of the unknown, not knowing the outcome or having answers to all the questions, but appreciate nobody does. Uh, and even, even if you did, the business is going to look different tomorrow.

Speaker C: Oh, my God.

Speaker B: Yes. So, and please look in the show notes and we'll include, uh, a link.

Speaker C: Um, I'm very. Yeah, it's fun. I'm very glad that I did that. My parents, I think everybody in my life is like, what is going on? God. Like, why are you doing this? Law school? But I learned so much. And, um, my, my customers are primarily female law partners. Like, that's my, that's my icp. I initially thought I was designing for, for people my own age. Um, but that's not. It didn't turn. That didn't turn out to be who purchased it and who really liked it. And so it's a good customer base. There's a couple law firms that buy them for their female associates every year still. And so there's like, reoccurring revenue. They're stored in my parents basement in Kansas and my mom mails them. So I also have free labor.

Speaker B: Who would have thought that Kansas, Italy had a Connection.

Speaker C: There's a bit. Yeah. I'm also really grateful the factory, like those folks, like spend an extra amount of time with me to like, there's something like I'm making sure I understood the pattern process and there's like some different types of factories that you could use and like, they helped me, they helped me more than they probably should have. But I am very appreciative for them. It's like a factory right outside of Milan. Awesome.

Speaker B: Fantastic. Have you had a chance to go over there yet?

Speaker C: I haven't. They told me I could stay with them, um, if and when I go and so I will be taking them up on that. But they are excellent. Uh, we also do some like, cotton goods, which I use a factory out of LA for, um, because LA is really good at cotton. I can tell you, like the best countries for all sorts of fabrics these days. But the factory in Italy is just so much better with quality control than my LA Fact factory.

Speaker B: You know, it's, it's interesting. I don't know if you, if you intentionally said it, um, but you made a comment about how the group in Italy said they liked you and decided to take a, take a shot. Um, you know, I'd be curious because, only because I was reading this, we're recording this second, uh, half of April. I was just 20, 26. I was reading earlier in the day someone was commenting on founder dispositions, on how, you know, maybe there's this ideal that found founders are, you know, just asses or just hard. And that, that hasn't been my experience. It sounds like it hasn't been yours either. Would love if you can just give us your perspective on how you think about culture, you know, attracting and retaining talent and you know, while at the same time dealing something with as high stakes is, is the law.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think that I, I agree that most founders, I think are kind. I, I, I work exclusively with founders as, uh, you often like. I think that there are people that are not kind and have erratic personalities and it is a certain type of person to be able to do this job uncertain and you have a lot of people depending on you. And so I understand the stresses and I think that all types of personalities can succeed here. But I think that I'm very intentionally kind. I think that my philosophy is I would like to be, treat everyone with respect and at the end of my days as a founder, at uh, the end of his life is I want to be able to like say, yep, uh, I'm proud of how I did that. Because most of these companies fail and like there's such a shot of being able to make it that I want to say I did it the right way and I'm not playing small. I'm taking every risk and being, being as aggressive as I can and like working incredibly hard. But I think that that also attracts like right type of people and I am very proud of the people that work at stocks. And I think that the number one thing that determines whether this company is successful or not is the people that I get to work here. And we have an incredibly high bar for talent. I say that we subscribe to the Netflix model where it's like ah, if you have a average gets you a generous severance policy. And that's true. Like you have to have a very, you have to be very talented and very driven. And I don't want to spend my time managing people. And so you have to also want to be in that zero to one environment and a real go getter. Um, but I think that the way that I'm able to attract folks is also by being nice and having it be a fun place to work. One of my favorite things about the difference between tech and big law is I think that within tech like mistakes and issues and problems, it's just like part of the journey. Like I think that I wake up every day and I'm like, they're like problems are just assumed, that's what's going to happen. And so I think creating an environment where people are can come to me with mistakes. Like I don't encourage but like it is just a problem that we solve as a team. Like I think when the issue, I never want the question to be who who did this? I want to be the question to be focused on how we solve it. And so I think that that's really the environment that I try to create. And I think that going forward that's like why we have like so many humans in the loop and whenever we see mistakes occurring like we create processes to like make sure that they never happen again. Um, but that's something that I care deeply about is making sure that we're, we're a good place to work.

Speaker B: Are you a delegator by nature?

Speaker C: I, I am, but I think that not in this role as much as I used to be. I think that I am involved with most, most decisions but I encourage folks to disagree with me. I think we have like very, very large disagreements. But I don't think that I am the type of manager where I'm like Incredibly in everybody's work all the time. But I. I am around and I have a pretty good grip on what's going on.

Speaker B: And how much of that do you think is. Um, it's funny. Uh, wow. You remind me another. Another founder. I know. And you sound exactly. You guys are both. She's really successful. Both sound the same. But I want to ask, um, obviously, a whole host of personalities.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: But my. My experience has been is that there is a pattern amongst founders to ensure their vision gets executed.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and it could be walking a line. I'm curious if you ever thought about that. And if so, you know, how do you. How do you make decisions of where you're going to insist it has to be the Soxton way versus or your way versus, you know, the rest of the teams.

Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, I think that I listened to a podcast once, and they described it as like. As, like the CEO as the founder. Like, you're kind of like the airline pilot. And so whenever, like whenever there is some sort of turbulence happening, if there's somebody in the back screaming like, we need to do what X, Y or Z, People would freak out if the, uh, if the. The pilot actually did that, because the pilot has the full context into everything in the business at the same end. So I think I kind of view my role in that type of way is like, I have more context on what's happening with my board, with investors, with customers, with the engineering team, with my lawyers than anyone else. And so there are some choices that I just have to make based off, like, that full context. And I think that that's also what. I would lose respect of everybody around me if I just bid to. Of my employees all the time. I think that one of the management styles that I try to be is like, uh, very fair, but also like, I have very high standards and so, like, hard to please. And I think that that works really well. I think that folks know that if they're going to tell me something's impossible, I need to know that that's true. Like, if I'm told that something won't work. But I think that we also. I view my job as also running a lot of tests. Like, I am willing to be wrong. I'm willing to let my employees try things and be wrong and in. That's celebrated and not discouraged.

Speaker B: Uh, I think that's. That's a great, great, great, uh, perspective to. To come from. Uh, I want to be mindful. Unfortunately, we're coming up on the end of our time before we do

Speaker C: love,

Speaker B: um, asking retrospective as you reflect back anything that you, you know, obviously a lot of the decisions got you to this point right now, and I'm really excited with the success that you had. But, you know, key lessons learned. Anything you do different, anything, um, you can share with, with our audience. Uh, you know, as you think back of how you got here from Dolores

Speaker C: to Saxon, I think that I wish I had stayed in touch with more people throughout my life. Like, I have such a need for really high quality talent now. And I have met so many talented individuals throughout my time at the institute, the places I've gone to school and programs I participated in that I wasn't being thoughtful about how much I would like to those people's input and advice now. And so I think that that's the number one is I wish I stayed in better contact people I. I know.

Speaker B: So then today, how much time do you carve out for relationships and network?

Speaker C: Oh, I, I don't necessarily go to a lot of events, but I think that I am far more willing than I used to be to just like shoot off emails to people I talked to like seven years ago and be like, hey, like, I'm doing this now. I know you talked. We talked about this this one time at a party. You have five to 15 minutes. Um, and so it's a good chunk of my time.

Speaker B: I love it. I think that's why wise part of our thesis around AI is that it's going to increase the impact, uh, or the significance of relationships because intelligence will become ubiquitous, but networks, you know, are still going to have a human element. There's just. No, I don't see, I don't see us escaping it. I think you touched on it too. Is that even we get more comfortable with the technology, we're going to want a human.

Speaker C: I agree.

Speaker B: Um, awesome. Love it. Um, before we wrap up, one of my questions I'd love to ask is just extend you an opportunity to recognize anyone personally, professionally, who's had a real impact on you, uh, over the years.

Speaker C: Yes, I think I'm going to go with Dolores. I think that having a secretary who we talked about that, like when I was 12 years old, let me hang out in her office every day through her multiple summers, profoundly changed the course of my life. And there's been a number of teachers like that throughout my. I am very grateful with the number of people that have cared and I always try to pay that forward. And so if, when folks reach out to me, especially folks that are young, I always make time to do calls and because there's so many people that did that with me, I love it.

Speaker B: Logan, there's anyone in the audience who wants to learn more either future employees?

Speaker C: Yeah, if you're a startup lawyer, I'm m actively hiring, um, stocks and AI or you can find me on Twitter LoganBrown 799. My DMS are open.

Speaker B: Fantastic. Logan, thank you so much. Uh, genuinely appreciate your time. I enjoy this podcast a lot.

Speaker C: Likewise, it was great chatting with you.

Speaker B: My pleasure. And again everyone, Logan uh, Brown, founder of Saxon. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Innovators Investors Podcast. Take care.

Speaker A: Christian Marquez here. Thank you so much for listening to the Innovators and Investors Podcast. If you are a successful founder or an investor would like to be on the podcast, please visit podcast.finstratmgmt.com podcast guest

Speaker B: if you've got something out of this

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