How brand drives growth in reputation-led legal markets with Lee Grunnell, CMO at Womble Bond Dickinson [Special Edition: Law Firms]

B2B has the potential to be electrifying, but the industry is paralyzed by a culture of conservatism, scared stiff in a straitjacket of rational ideas. It's time for change. It's time to make B2B marketing visceral. Join us as we uncover and explore the Truth with leading B2B marketers. This is B2B Marketing the Provocative Truth. Hello and welcome to B2B Marketing the Provocative Truth. I'm Benedict and today I'm joined by Lee Grinnell, who is CMO of Womblebond Dickinson. Lee, a very, very warm welcome. Welcome to the podcast. How you doing? Yeah, very good, thank you. Good to be here. Looking forward to it. Well, thank you very, very much for traveling down from. Is it Leeds where you're based? It is Leeds. Home Office. Been down in London for a couple of days visiting the team. So now this works perfectly with my travel plans. Brilliant. And for those people that aren't familiar with Womble Bond Dickinson, they are a law firm. And this, excitingly is kicking off our little mini marketing within law firms, which is something I've been looking forward to tremendously. And the conversation that we're going to be having today on a sort of prima facie level is all around differentiation in law and why that's important. But I think that why this is going to be a particularly fascinating conversation is it maybe exposes an underlying tension or dichotomy perhaps that exists within law, that lawyers, and I'm being slightly general here, are trained in many respects to minimize exposure, minimize risk. In many respects, actually, success is measured by how little you get noticed rather than how much you do generate attention. And there is an interesting shift for lawyers as they then sort of graduate into running law firms and ultimately having to start thinking like a business is that that sort of modus operandi isn't necessarily compatible with driving forward a successful firm when you think of it as a business. Now, whilst obviously people do make that transition, I do sort of get the feeling that instincts are still there and that sort of caution remains. So what I'd be really, really fascinated to get your perspective on is are law firms understanding the importance of differentiation within the market place? Because my hypothesis is they are not fully embracing it. And in an age where increasingly sort of the buying decision is changing, I think such caution does risk law firms becoming obsolete. What's your response to that? Well, that's. Yeah, that's diving straight in, isn't it, to the big questions? I think. So to use a really tired cliche I think we're on a journey, I think so. I entered The Workplace in 2000. Working at EY was my first sort of proper job and then joined my first law firm, Beechcroft, as was now DAC Beechcroft in 2006. So I've got about getting on 20 years sort of insight into how things have shifted in the world of law firms. I think if you go back to let's say 2006, it hadn't been that long that law firms were really actually allowed to do big publicity and any form of marketing. So you've got people got lawyers and partners in a law firm in the mid noughties that entered the profession in the 80s maybe when the world was very, very different for actually how you went about building a business. And the idea of having clients, you know, just harks back to those days of patronage when actually, yeah, you know, effectively you just sat back and people came to you and you deigned to decide whether you wanted to out for them or not. So I think you say so you fast forward to now and absolutely things are changing and I think firms are beginning to recognize, I say the world is a very different place, it's a very competitive place, but there's absolutely still nervousness because it's an industry that I say is still kind of evolving. I was doing a bit of a count actually over the course of this week thinking about, okay, what are we seeing from not just in law firms but Wider Professional Services, B2B organisations generally when it comes to big advertising. And like I said, I think even compared to three, four, five years ago, we're in a very, very different place. So there was an advert for Amazon web services on Sky Sports. Yeah, the rugby last week. You've got Allianz, Capgemini, Quilter doing the big advertising there, coming out of Leeds station, PwC doing sort of big advertising pieces. Michcon Durea launched their new campaign Outdoor on the Underground. So yes, I think we're seeing firms starting to do a lot more, but I think we're kind of at the starting point of it becoming a bit more commonplace. And you talk there actually almost from, if I'm understanding correctly that from a regulatory standpoint there were restrictions on what law firms could do, sort of historically that has slightly opened up in terms of what we're seeing. Are we also seeing, and potentially in response to that or maybe just because of other sort of market pressures, that there are changes in the sort of the way that people buy legal services. It's something I alluded to in my quite rambling introduction, but I'd be fascinated to get your perspective on the changes you've seen in the way that people are buying Legal services. I think this actually is almost possibly at the heart of the tension that still exists that you mentioned in your intro. I think the core way that people decide which law firms they're going to instruct, I don't think that necessarily has changed in that fundamental psychology of decision making. I think that what's shifted is our understanding of how those decisions are made, but also the different ways in which we can influence those decisions. So yesterday afternoon I was sharing our latest sort of brand tracking results with the board and we'd asked sort of an additional set of questions almost just to get much more into kind of the market dynamics of kind of, yeah, how people decide which firms they're going to use. And Legal services actually is pretty much a classic repertoire market in the way that, say, the Ehrenberg Bass Institute would talk about it. So what's clear is whether it's an in house lawyer, HR director, an FD IT director, whoever the decision maker is, they will have a repertoire of firms that they know and trust, however big that might be. Four, five, six firms, when they've got an issue, when they've got a need that they need an external firm to advise on, their starting point is always, okay, who am I already working with? Because those core issues of trust and risk, and I can't get this wrong, I default to people that I know, that I understand, who they are, what they're good at, where their strengths are. So you've got that first dynamic of actually it's that, okay, who do I already know? If they need then to look outside of that existing group of firms, then that next step is, okay, who can I ask for recommendations? Who are those peers, acquaintances, colleagues, membership bodies that I go to almost to then start building that long list, okay, then extra additional research into those long list of firms that I've been recommended, where the website becomes critical, narrowing down into that short list of okay, right now I might get a proposal from them. So I think those dynamics haven't really changed. And I think those fundamental issues of let's say, can I trust these people to do a good job? Is the technical quality and experience there, Can I work with them? And those patterns actually follow most other B2B industries. And I think what's changed from the law firm side, the market side, is realising, okay, maybe we can't just sit back and wait for that phone call. And wait for that message, wait for that email from someone. Actually, we need to just be more proactive and there's things that we can do. So I think maybe the underlying fundamentals haven't changed a huge amount. We're probably seeing more competitive tendering. I say the influence of procurement, but broadly, I think the decision making is kind of the same. It's more just understanding that at a bit more of a fundamental level and understanding. Right. What are the things that we can do that can influence that buying decision. That's really interesting. I think in my head I almost, I think, I thought that maybe there'd been more disruption in the way that people bought legal services, which might be sort of catalyzing this, this shift. So within that context, which, I mean, what you have described there is still very, very much based a sort of relationship referral type sort of model there. What do you think would have, I mean, you spoke about Michonne's campaign that they had when you. I don't know which station you walked out of, but a station you walked out and you saw, you saw the campaign there. What do you think would have been the business case that they would have put forward for investing in something which is a big brand awareness campaign? How does that sit within that sort of relationship referrer sort of model? Yeah, so that is difficult. So for me. So I suppose I'm kind of a marketing traditionalist, if that's a phrase. Classicist. Classicist. I like the. Go for classicist. That's my first idea. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Sort of, yeah, my sort of Byron esque smoking jacket that I'm wearing in that idea of, okay, you know, diagnosis, strategy, tactics. So, you know, the research, what's the competitive position? So again, so actually if I think about yesterday, sharing the board research, we can say, okay, right, this is against the competitors that we benchmark against. This is our overall awareness, this is, you know, our consideration, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And you combine that competitive position with, okay, what are the market dynamics? How do people decide? And you start to be able to build that picture of, okay, right, if we want to grow next year, what do we need to do? Where are the points where maybe we're a little bit weak in terms of the purchase funnel? Actually, the importance of that, just raw awareness of potentially entering that consideration set. So if people have got. And the firms that we're benchmarking against, I think the highest awareness is still only around 50%. So amongst those people that we include in our quant research, there's still only 50% sort of max awareness that a firm's got. So realizing, okay, this is a market where again, people don't necessarily have a huge number of instructions they're giving out each year. They're working with a number of different firms, they typically default to firms they already know. So, okay, if we want to grow, we need to constantly win new clients, expand the size of that customer base. That means getting in front of people that don't already know us, maybe don't know we exist, or maybe only have a superficial understanding. So then you come to the, okay, so there's that raw awareness piece is super important. And also it starts to give that chance to start to sort of build some of that perception, that whole sort of building and refreshing memory structures that VBI would talk about. I think that's where you start to build the case for that piece almost just by just working people through just the realities of the market dynamics. So just to give you an idea, we kind of generally look at the idea of, okay, we need to do something top of mind awareness. And I think the other actually slightly pausing, going back, I think the other thing that's interesting from that perspective is in that idea of how do you assess the quality of a product, a service, a good that you don't know? And also how do you assess the quality of an intangible service that. You know, the analogy I used yesterday with someone was it's not like buying a tv. You know, if you get the TV home and you switch it on if it's going to work and if it's any good, you don't know that when you instruct an accountant or a wealth manager or a law firm. So I think as well as that helping you build awareness with potential new clients, it also has that impact on starting to influence some of those perceptions around quality, trustworthiness, all of those things that are fundamentally important for someone making a big important decision potentially on something that is high risk, strategically important as well. So I think those are often the two sort of key pieces where that big awareness sort of awareness work comes in and you talk there around quality and trust. And clearly they are hugely important not just within law, but within professional services and potentially beyond, but certainly certainly within that world. Now, I framed the conversation earlier around this idea of the need for differentiation to be sort of slightly obtuse. Is it actually just trust and quality that law firms need to communicate, or is there the opportunity and maybe necessity to look at some other different dimensions to create that distinction? I think there's a really tricky balance to strike in legal services and probably in professional services as well, because you absolutely need to, I say, convey kind of above all else that actually, yeah, the technical expertise is there, the track record and experience, that trustworthiness, they're absolutely kind of fundamental and you cannot ignore those at all. The challenge is there are loads and loads and loads and loads and loads and loads and loads and loads of law firms that are really good and have great experience. So you're trying to sort of pull that neat trick of conveying that. But also what else is it that you need to layer on top of that? And I often sort of think of kind of three layers. You've got those parity elements as those foundational pieces, superiority and then distinctiveness, differentiation. So you absolutely have to build in all of that trust and sort of quality piece. But then what else is it that either is going to get someone's attention in the first place, but also is maybe going to convey those core elements in a way that is different and in a way that sort of stands out because most law firms do the same kind of things in the same kinds of way for the same kinds of clients. It's very rare that someone will have a genuinely differentiating unique factor. But relative differentiation I think is important and is achievable. But again, it's almost that I always used to say, does it pass the rad test? Is it relevant to the audience that you're talking to? Is it authentic and true to you and is it distinctive? You know, and I think that's kind of the, the holy trinity that you're, that you're looking for understanding. Yeah, those, those key fundamental things that are critically important. And I'd be fascinated to, because I think that it's, it's almost maybe the way that one needs to look at it is it's you, it's a, it's a triangle. And you have to have your trust and your quality. Those are your table stakes if you want to be a successful law firm. And it's probably about finding one additional accent or ingredient that gives you that sort of like that point of difference. So it's a slightly two part question, but I do do just want to get your opinion first on how, how successfully is the, the legal sector at the moment in terms of finding those points of difference or is it broadly homogeneous? And then my, the follow on sort of question is going to be finding out how Womble Bond Dickinson, how you found your, your point of difference. So I'll let you Sort of, yeah. Your judgment on the industry first. I think the legal industry is. What we're seeing is a fragmentation, but still fragmenting into quite large fragments, if that's not a completely horrific sentence. So the lawyer do every year that top 200 report. So the legal market is massive. There aren't many markets out there where there are 200 sizable, credible sort of players. I think we're seeing a bit of fragmentation into. The big, big, truly global elite firms that are only interested in doing the biggest, most complex, most difficult deals and transactions and disputes. And I think that's beginning to emerge. And I think that's where we've seen the influence of historically purely US headquartered firms entering into the UK market principally to have that kind of London to New York link, I think you're seeing. So I think that's that sort of one group. I think then you're seeing sort of other international firms that aren't necessarily chasing that. Okay, the biggest, most complex stuff, but are about scale in lots and lots of different countries. And then it kind of filters into different ways. Okay, sort of national UK firms, regional, you might have kind of niche specialist players in particular sectors or markets. See the big four accountancy firms sort of moving in, looking at alternative legal service providers. So I think it is beginning to fragment a little bit. But even within those fragments, they're still sizable and there's still sort of competition. And that's where again this idea of differentiation, you start to almost see that segment of the market is differentiated from this segment of the market. So it's quite useful in that sense of, okay, you've got your point of difference within that grouping and then it's okay, so within that group, within if you're say just national UK firms, right, what is it that firm A might emphasise over firm B over firm C? And is there different? Because I think definitely the macro differentiation you've just. That is always clear. But when you're getting into the, the fragments, as you, as you said there, what's that level of differentiation that's being achieved at that level or is it actually quite homogenous? Law firms, the legal market. Sorry, rather than law firms, legal market. You know that there are the classic stock words, phrases that everyone uses. And one of the ones that everyone uses, you know, is it's our people that make us different. It's our culture that sets us apart. And it's one of those things that is a truism and a cliche because it's true, there will be a group of people that work in firm A, that have gravitated there for a reason and stay there for a reason, and that is the culture of that firm. And the same will be true for firm B, C, D and E. And that does feel different. And if you talk to clients and this came through in all of our kind of research, that they will say, yes, I know I can get good advice and solid advice from a range of different firms. But then it is that culturally thing that I enjoy working with those people because they just have a, maybe a style about them that fits for this particular type of work. And I enjoy working with these people over here for, excuse me, similar sorts of reasons. But that's really, really hard to define. I think that's the thing that every firm is searching for. How do we define this cultural thing that exists and is the reason why people choose to stay here rather than go somewhere else, part of the reason that that is so difficult? So if I take our firm and we look at 150 odd partners, again, to use a cliche just for the purpose of this analogy, you've got 150 different views on how you define what that thing is. And that's almost impossible. So what you end up with is actually the only thing that everyone can agree on is quality, trustworthiness, expertise, experience. So that's where you then start to see that homogeneity of messaging and so forth. So it's really, really hard to do it is there? And to an extent, the job of the marketer, I think, is to. Is to almost like sort of bully people beyond saying, actually, no, we're going to ban these words and phrases. That isn't what our culture's about. That isn't what sets us apart. How you find it out. Again, if I go back to my classicist piece, it's the research. You go out and you talk to clients and you keep talking to them until you keep hearing the same things. You pull all that together. You talk to all the people internally. You talk to random other people in the market that know you other referrers, and you kind of trawl through it and you compare it to what other firms are saying, and you test it against what's particularly important to clients. And you kind of keep narrowing it down and refining it until you get, okay, this is the thing. And you know, and people will call it positioning, DNA, cultural values, whatever you want to call it. There's that thing. And it is inevitably messy and it is hard to define and it's intangible and it's loose and it's woolly, but you try and put as much definition and tightness around it and that becomes that. That kind of consistent thing, that through your messaging, your official identity, your tagline, your imagery, you just keep referring that. And that kind of trawls through all of your advertising, for example. So people, you know, you look like you and you sound like you and you build up that familiarity. I mean, it sounds like you're very much talking from experience. I can hear you almost narrating an anecdote there when you've gone through that experience with Wimbledon. Dickinson. What was that insight which really sort of started to coalesce when you'd been through these conversations? One of the things that stands out about the firm and the people, I think, is we have a really interesting. I use that word deliberately rather than just in the bland way that you can't think of anything else to say. A really interesting mix of people that have come to the firm from different places and in different ways. They've maybe taken different qualification routes into the law. They've maybe come to the law as a second career. We've got people working in the firm, lots of people working in the firm that aren't lawyers. Our private wealth team has a wealth management FCA regulated part to it. Our WBD advance division has project managers and legal technologists. I say we have people that have taken a conventional route into the law. We actively recruit from different talent pools, which is one of the benefits of having offices throughout the uk. So it is that kind of mix of. Actually, yeah, you bring all of these different points of view and perspectives together and that belief that, again, with that underlying foundational point of quality and expertise and experience, you bring all of those different perspectives and interests and passions together and you get better solutions for clients. And that is one of those core kind of things of that we kind of say, yeah, this is what we believe at Womble Pond, Dickinson. And is one of the things that we think sets us apart and is a differentiating factor. You combine that with. I say there's no other UK firm of our size that has the US presence that we do. So that becomes almost quite a tangible sort of point and various other things that kind of link around to that, which is kind of how we then get to that sort of external tagline of a point of view like no other. That is kind of almost that external expression of those things that. Yeah, this is what makes Womble Bon Dickinson. Womble Bond Dickinson. No, no, I like that. Funny enough, when you were sort of describing it. What came to mind as a, almost an analogy is there's, there's, you know, there's the criticism about the career politician and that they don't have experience of the real world and therefore can't bring that perspective that you're referring to. And I can imagine that that is actually quite compelling within law because you will have so many career lawyers that don't have that real world experience. And so, yes, I think, you know, it's a lovely example actually there about, we've been talking about the problem of homogeneity and you've talked about heterogeneity in terms of, in terms of that. So just to sort of maybe sort of conclude us here, I'd be, be interested to know. And of course you can, you can sidestep this if you wish. Are there any other law firms, whether it's a direct competitor or not, you know, it doesn't matter. That you feel has come up with a really interesting point of difference that that's working. And maybe on the flip side, is there anyone that stretched it too far? No. Okay, so I'm going to preface what I say by saying I think law firms are fascinating and I think they're far more interesting and exciting than we give them credit for. And I think there are people working in law firms who do fantastic work that is important to, yeah, every aspect of people's lives and kind of building the country and what have you. So I think, and I think for a long time we kind of, we haven't given law firms the marketing they deserve because we've, we've kind of thought of it as always just like boring legal stuff. And actually this is one of the, I think this is one of the challenges of finding that interesting point of difference. I remember when I first joined 11 Dickinson. I will come back to the question, I promise. It's fun. To my sort of Billy Connolly esque detour around, I was talking to one of the partners at Warwon Dickinson about some work that they were doing. And I'd kind of said to them, this is really interesting. This is kind of like. And actually this seems like it's really new and kind of important. And they were slightly kind of bemused by this and they were like, but it's just like what we do, we don't necessarily think of this as exciting or dull. It's just how we do things. And I think often the lawyers don't necessarily recognize how good what they're doing actually is. And that's where that somehow that external perspective or the role of the marketer is to kind of tease those things out. So I think generally we haven't given firms the marketing they deserve but I think that is changing. I think so firms that I think are doing really interesting stuff. So Hill Dickinson is the firm kind of on everyone's lips at the moment in the legal market sponsoring Everton's stadium which I think has left a lot of people bemused and a lot of marketers really excited to kind of see. Okay wow, that's a bold move and a huge investment. And a huge investment and is doing wonders for the name recognition of Hilda Kinson and people kind of recognizing it and it's spot on for them their heritage in Liverpool. It's absolutely the right thing to do. I think Micha have been doing really good stuff for a long time. I remember when they launched their kind of its business but it's personal tagline just kind of thinking that's really cool and really clever and again how do you communicate that you do sort of B2B commercial law and B2C private client. Bravo. That's great. I think Adolf Goddard are doing some really, really great stuff. Leeds firm, isn't it? So they. So yeah, so they definitely have some heritage. Heritage. So they were one of what used to be known as kind of the Leeds Big six way back when but again kind of national Indian international firm doing some really good stuff. CMS have done some really great bold outdoor advertising recently. So yes, I think there are lots of firms beginning to do this. It's kind of an increasingly. Yeah that competition is kind of is ramping up and I think people are kind of looking around saying actually yeah, there are loads and loads of good firms here. The market is fragmenting in these different ways. We've got to work even harder to, to stand out and growth is hard. Winning new work isn't easy. But yeah, I think we're starting to see more and more firms doing some really, really good stuff and setting precedents. If we're going to sort of riff on the legal parlance a little bit there which does open it up for other firms. I think also just with the Hill Dickinson one as you described it, it's such a bold move but also that first mover advantage that they have just because it was unprecedented before, I mean really will have just made that reach exponential. Now you did sidestep the second part of the question. So I will, I will, I will rephrase it to, to allow you the appropriate diplomacy but so we don't need to name names at all. But do you feel that there are almost the limits which do need to be observed that are peculiar to law in terms of how much you do stand out? Yeah, I think there are, but I think that goes for any category, actually. And again, this goes back to that, you know, that rad test. Is it relevant, is it authentic, is it distinctive? And the importance of that relevance bit and understanding who your audience is. Because if you ground everything in that sense of, okay, this is, you know, the in house legal community, this is the HR community, this is how they buy, this is what's important to them, that will inherently act as a bit of a break on pushing it too far. I think as well, the interesting thing as well, and I think this is where law firms can afford to be a little bit bolder than maybe we think we can. Because you're a law firm, you instantly have that thing of people, well, I kind of automatically assume you're technically excellent and trustworthy and really good and have strong expertise because you're a law firm. If you ask the general public what they think of a law firm, it probably will be quite boring and a bit dull. And it's like, okay, great, so that's the starting point that you're coming from. So I think that instantly gives you a little bit more leeway perhaps because you automatically have that pull of those standard associations of being a law firm. But again, and then if you ground it in that market research and that market insight, that should automatically help you find the right balance. I don't think I've seen anyone, I would say, pushing it too far. And I think it's good for all of us when we see firms doing interesting stuff. I'm always sort of thinking about in the NFL when they talk about these exorbitant contracts that quarterbacks sign and they always justify on the basis of, well, if I push the contract forward, the quarterbacks that follow me will be in a better place. And I think, yeah, the more we see firms doing what Hill Dickinson are doing, or what mishcoms or what Adelshaws are doing, it makes it great for the rest of us as well to kind of think, okay, great, yeah, we're seeing peers doing exciting, cool stuff. That gives us permission to do exciting, cool stuff as well. It's interesting actually, what you're finally saying there in terms of that paradoxically, the fact that there is a certain perception of lawyers and law firms, it means that law firms potentially have more license to be a little bit experimental in some of the ways that they communicate because they are anchored ultimately so much in that sort of implicit trust, quality, expertise dimension. And I think that the sort of, the concluding sort of thought that I would have is that it might be at the beginning very, very difficult to see what could be a compelling, differentiated story to tell. Especially if your starting point is, well, our point of difference is our people. It does sound generic. It also is difficult to scale. But if you do invest in a process and as you talked about, it's going through that research, it's repeating it, and then you're finding out, where do we see these trends appearing in terms of how we behave, how we are perceived? There is that opportunity to craft an authentic story. And that was a word that you sort of used. Very, very important, but also one that is actually quite interesting to your target audience. And that is, as you said, the role of the marketer is to be that narrator for practitioners, whether it's law firms or otherwise, and to see how technical expertise and capability actually can be connected into something which is in a compelling external narrative. So I feel quite optimistic about the future of advertising in law firm. I think this might be the next big, exciting growth area. So, Lee, thank you very, very much for joining the podcast. It was a really fascinating conversation. No pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. B2B Marketing the Provocative Truth is brought to you by Allen Agency. To find out more, head to allen-agency.com you can stream B2B Marketing the Provocative Truth on Apple podcasts, Spotify or anywhere else. Great podcasts are found. 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