The IPA Making Sense Podcast: Tessa LeGassick

1 - > SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of 2 - > the IPA Making Sense podcast, where we'll be making sense of 3 - > the complicated things in advertising, media, and 4 - > marketing today, and also hopefully just making them a 5 - > little bit more fun. 6 - > I'm Simon Frazier. 7 - > SPEAKER_01: And I'm Molly Bruce, and today we're joined by the 8 - > brilliant Tessa Legassock. 9 - > Tessa is Chief Planning Officer at Hearts and Science UK and 10 - > founding member of the agency, where she's played a leading 11 - > role in shaping attention-led, inclusive, and 12 - > effectiveness-driven media planning.

13 - > She's widely recognized for her work connecting data, 14 - > creativity, and culture to real business growth, and was 15 - > recently named Campaign's Media Planning Leader of the Year. 16 - > Tessa, it's great to have you with us. 17 - > SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for inviting me. 18 - > SPEAKER_00: Firstly, congratulations on your new 19 - > role, Chief Planning Officer.

20 - > That's wonderful to hear. 21 - > And one of the things I wanted to get started with asking is 22 - > just how do you define that role in a media agency today? 23 - > We know with the where the landscape's becoming 24 - > increasingly complex. 25 - > How do you think that that definition has evolved over the 26 - > last few years as well?

27 - > SPEAKER_02: I think the first thing to say is I'm actually 28 - > Hart's first chief planning officer. 29 - > So the role for us has definitely been shaped by what 30 - > the agency needs from planning right now and what I can 31 - > deliver. 32 - > And for me, this might be oversimplifying, but I really 33 - > think that's it. 34 - > So that kind of the intersection of both craft and creativity.

35 - > So at its core, my role is about making it easier for all teams, 36 - > like not just specialist teams, but all teams to do great 37 - > planning day-to-day across all clients. 38 - > And that's not just at the big moments, though it is also at 39 - > the big moments. 40 - > That means kind of setting the ambition and standards for 41 - > planning for the whole agency, also leading specialist teams. 42 - > So I specifically look after a group of specialised planners 43 - > and I also look after the creative solutions team as well.

44 - > But also making sure that planning is being pulled through 45 - > to really actually shape decisions. 46 - > So how budgets are set, how channels are chosen, how success 47 - > is measured, and making sure all of those things deliver kind of 48 - > impact for clients as well. 49 - > A core point is obviously championing the craft of 50 - > planning, which obviously you guys know a lot a lot about, but 51 - > also kind of connecting teams around that and galvanizing 52 - > that.

53 - > And in practice, for me, that means taking kind of strategic 54 - > thinking and best practice and then translating that into kind 55 - > of action and what it actually can mean for clients so we can 56 - > really use it. 57 - > Planning kind of really only has started to earn its place, I 58 - > think, because it is it is that space where we start to move 59 - > from theory into practice in media. 60 - > I think, in terms of evolution, for me personally, I sort of 61 - > started in a specialism, so I've had to kind of kind of on this 62 - > journey to being a more broader planner, I guess, had to let go 63 - > of that comfort of being a specialist because I quite I 64 - > quite liked having all the answers and being the expert on 65 - > everything in the room, and that that's quite a nice place to 66 - > operate from as a kind of like professional.

67 - > But planning obviously spans all channels, and planners have to 68 - > be super strong specialists in planning, but also kind of 69 - > strong generalists as well. 70 - > And that definitely felt really uncomfortable for me at first 71 - > because you sort of have to accept you can't know absolutely 72 - > everything about everything in media. 73 - > But like our job really is about connecting those things 74 - > together, and essentially, like, I might not immediately know the 75 - > answer about everything, but I back myself enough to know that 76 - > I know the right people or the places to go to find out or 77 - > figure out the answer at this point.

78 - > I actually find the learning aspect of it or that kind of 79 - > complexity or the ever-evolving space really energizing and 80 - > enjoy the challenge of kind of figuring it out, and I think 81 - > that mindset is really important in being kind of a planning 82 - > leader. 83 - > I think the biggest evolution, kind of broadening out to the 84 - > wider media ecosystem, is like how applied and integrated the 85 - > role of kind of chief planning officers have become. 86 - > Planning really does kind of show up everywhere.

87 - > It is in new business, it's in senior client conversations, 88 - > it's in product development, it's in creativity and 89 - > innovation. 90 - > So that can span such a huge wrath of things from like 91 - > attention-led planning, retail, gaming, influencers, new 92 - > measurement approaches, like all of those things, like need a new 93 - > new approach to planning them. 94 - > And as kind of those channels fragment and consumer behaviour 95 - > continues to shift about the place, our role is kind of about 96 - > navigating that complexity without making it really complex 97 - > for clients.

98 - > So providing some simplification and making sure we're still 99 - > delivering on kind of strategic direction. 100 - > And I think the kind of context we're operating in, the reason 101 - > why the planning roles become more prevalent at agencies, is 102 - > because that context is changing at pace faster, the pace is 103 - > increasing, and clients are definitely under kind of greater 104 - > pressure from a commercial and cultural and technological 105 - > perspective.

106 - > So that CPL role is really about translation. 107 - > How do we take all these complicated things, that 108 - > complexity, whether it's like data platforms or AI or whatever 109 - > the next thing will be, and making it into like kind of 110 - > really clear choices. 111 - > So like ultimately, the role is about facilitating making kind 112 - > of better decisions more often. 113 - > SPEAKER_00: And it's great to hear being the inaugural chief 114 - > planning officer, you're able to start from a position of what's 115 - > really best for going forward rather than, you know, in some 116 - > structures it might be, well, this is how it's always been 117 - > done.

118 - > And it it's it's nice to open it up and to go, well, actually, 119 - > let's focus on the best things for us going forward. 120 - > And I guess when you mentioned about going from that position 121 - > of being a specialist in one thing, like it's comfort, yeah, 122 - > it's not necessarily comfortable because it's obviously taking a 123 - > lot of things. 124 - > But it's really hard, but it's kind of nice. 125 - > I know, you know, I know where I fit.

126 - > And then moving into that generalist, what would you say 127 - > is a good way for people who are very specialist to increase that 128 - > general knowledge across a variety of different areas? 129 - > Is it about building relationships with the right 130 - > people or is it about doing lots of homework? 131 - > What would you what would be your top tip, do you think? 132 - > SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's obviously about those things, but I think 133 - > it's about having a curiosity about how your specialism fits 134 - > into that kind of wider ecosystem because you don't want 135 - > to get set in a mindset of like just in platform and just in 136 - > channel, because that is quite reductive, especially when we 137 - > move to a world where just thinking tunnel first isn't 138 - > particularly helpful anymore.

139 - > So I think having that curiosity about where your specialism kind 140 - > of like bleeds into other specialisms because there is so 141 - > much overlap these days, is probably the way to sort of 142 - > stretch out of your specialism a little bit and become a bit more 143 - > kind of strategic and well-rounded. 144 - > SPEAKER_00: And I I guess as we move more into the world, 145 - > increasingly conversations are around AI and kind of its 146 - > changing, you know, the place in the landscape.

147 - > And I think the more I read into it and the more I kind of 148 - > observe or have conversations about it, it seems that it's 149 - > more it it encourages almost a crisis of confidence where 150 - > people go, actually, if we focus on what we really know well, AI 151 - > is not really that big of a threat because we're confident 152 - > in our abilities. 153 - > It's kind of AI has a unique ability, I think, to undermine 154 - > your own confidence in things because it shows you the 155 - > vastness of the things that you don't know.

156 - > And actually, we've survived perfectly well not knowing a lot 157 - > of stuff stuff. 158 - > So it's quite uh But it's great to have that kind of overview 159 - > perspective as well. 160 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well that's the good thing about being a 161 - > planner. 162 - > You get this opportunity to sort of get get into the weeds of of 163 - > different things constantly, and I've been doing this for the an 164 - > amount of years I won't actually put a number to because it's 165 - > quite aging at this point.

166 - > But like that's I still find that super energizing that I can 167 - > turn up this week and be like, I'm definitely gonna learn 168 - > something this week, and I'm definitely gonna be getting into 169 - > something that I I don't know that much about, or there's 170 - > gonna be something I need to solve for, and you have to see 171 - > that as being exciting and an opportunity rather than like 172 - > terrifying and scary because otherwise you wouldn't enjoy the 173 - > job.

174 - > SPEAKER_00: And and I must say it's hugely inspiring from 175 - > guests that we've had on previously, and and and and 176 - > equally what you've just said there, people like Vicky Fox, 177 - > Caroline Manning, they have so much excitement about what they 178 - > do. 179 - > And it's really inspiring to see people who've maybe been in the 180 - > industry for a number of years, but still every day is the most 181 - > exciting day they've ever had when they come in, even if it's 182 - > a big client challenge or whatever it might be, that level 183 - > of enthusiasm.

184 - > Because it it really filters down into teams and is very 185 - > inspiring. 186 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean I'm lucky to work quite closely with 187 - > Vicky and Caroline's kind of obviously the IPG agencies are 188 - > kind of new to the Omnicom family, but having that 189 - > engagement with other planners who are also really kind of 190 - > passionate about the discipline is kind of really inspiring. 191 - > SPEAKER_01: I think it's also easy to forget sometimes that 192 - > behind your job you've actually you're bringing the context of 193 - > your like your everyday lives.

194 - > And this is, I think we've had really nice conversations. 195 - > Yeah. 196 - > We've had nice conversations with like with Caroline, Vicky, 197 - > and also with Sarah about sort of the impact that that context 198 - > outside of work brings on their professional life. 199 - > Is that something that rings true for you?

200 - > SPEAKER_02: I think really good planners are a bit like magpies. 201 - > So like a lot of our work is iterative, but we're sort of 202 - > like select stuff and borrow stuff and curate things and 203 - > build things from both from what we've done before, but also what 204 - > we've seen, like culture, experiences, like other 205 - > conversations that you might have that might spark something, 206 - > and then like reconstituting that and reapplying that and and 207 - > building on that in a different way, dependent on the problem 208 - > that you can solve.

209 - > And but there's like there's kind of a flip side of that as 210 - > well that you need to be kind of aware of. 211 - > Like you can't just stay in your own little bubble, and like that 212 - > can be really limiting. 213 - > Like, no one person is the average consumer, you know, you 214 - > all have your own kind of little biases. 215 - > So I think having that kind of consumer-first, like common 216 - > sense, I think, viewpoint is really critical, and always 217 - > bearing in mind, like we obviously care a huge amount 218 - > about the work we do and we take it very seriously, but like 219 - > consumers really do not feel the same way about advertising and 220 - > media, and uh and and sometimes you can get quite lost in that.

221 - > So I think bearing that in mind is really important, and I think 222 - > having the fundamentals of marketing effectiveness there 223 - > really matter, and Hearts have a kind of um sponsorship with the 224 - > Ehrenberg Bath Institute, and kind of that type of evidence 225 - > and best practice give you the guardrails to able to stop that 226 - > kind of intuition turning into that bias. 227 - > And and to your point earlier on how kind of AI can perhaps 228 - > undermine the role of the specialist because it shows you 229 - > all of the the sort of vast array of potential data and 230 - > options that are out there, it kind of allows you to still 231 - > apply those kind of principles with judgment across wider kind 232 - > of data sets.

233 - > And I think in terms of like personally, like my mum was a 234 - > teacher, my dad was like exceptionally well read, and I 235 - > think they've one of the things that I think helps me in my job 236 - > is like I have a huge passion for reading, and I read super 237 - > indiscriminately. 238 - > Like, I like it's of all the things I've failed in as being a 239 - > parent, one of the things I take actual real pleasure in is both 240 - > my children really love reading and getting lost in that.

241 - > I think what I like about reading is understanding 242 - > different people's perspectives and like understanding how 243 - > stories are told and reading about kind of a vast array of 244 - > subjects, and having that is is really important in in kind of 245 - > planning as well. 246 - > So having that kind of curiosity about stories and other people's 247 - > experiences and how those stories are told and and and how 248 - > you're gonna tell the story of the plan essentially is really 249 - > beneficial.

250 - > And and then also personally, like I've as I said, I've got 251 - > two daughters who are kind of eight and nine, and they expose 252 - > me to like a whole new like generation of failures and 253 - > culture that otherwise I would have had no idea about 254 - > whatsoever. 255 - > And I'm like, I am actually super jealous of them because 256 - > they have they get to have such a like wide array of influences 257 - > and access that I would have absolutely loved when I was a 258 - > kid.

259 - > Like them into things like I don't know, we all watch like 260 - > beast games together because we love that. 261 - > They're into like K-pop demon hunters, like they can be into 262 - > like cinema that's influenced by career or like stuff that's from 263 - > the internet, whereas my access like growing up was limited to 264 - > like four and then five TV channels. 265 - > Yeah, I remember and whatever my sisters and I recorded on like 266 - > VHS and relentlessly replayed.

267 - > I think that's a constant reminder of how quickly kind of 268 - > culture moves and how different audience context is today, and 269 - > that kind of keeps you like rooted in that. 270 - > I tried to explain to my eight-year-old the other day 271 - > what like Blockbuster was as a concept. 272 - > Oh it was she honestly couldn't understand what I was talking 273 - > about. 274 - > She was like, but then so do they have all of the films 275 - > there?

276 - > And I was like, No, you'd only have like five copies, and then 277 - > be like, Well, what if someone had taken them all out? 278 - > And I'm like, Well then you'd have to choose something else, 279 - > and then she'd be like, But then how do you know if you like it? 280 - > And I was like, Well, you just have to choose something, and 281 - > she was like, What? 282 - > Because they've grown up with that, like this ability to have 283 - > everything so kind of like on demand, and that that kind of 284 - > woo-out that I grew up in is so different to that.

285 - > SPEAKER_00: It's funny because back then, like going to 286 - > Blockbuster, that was a destination, but now it's like I 287 - > guess the choice thing. 288 - > We've got such an abundance of choice that the process of 289 - > selecting a program in a house invariably is the complete 290 - > opposite of a happy experience, isn't it? 291 - > It's kind of just like everybody's just like, I don't 292 - > want to watch that, I don't really see that. 293 - > SPEAKER_02: You know, that sort of Yeah, that choice paralysis.

294 - > Like I've got too much choice. 295 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this Blockbuster, that was a great 296 - > Yeah, oh, haven't you? 297 - > SPEAKER_02: In my mind of like flicking through and being like, 298 - > oh no, we don't have sandlock kids, we're gonna have to choose 299 - > something else now. 300 - > So yeah, but like I think that does help me in my kind of job 301 - > because it does connect me to things that I otherwise would 302 - > have no connection with whatsoever.

303 - > And I think also it's not just theoretical and personal, it's 304 - > also practical. 305 - > So I think my advice would be planners that are working on 306 - > brands, it really sounds really obvious, but like actually to 307 - > experience those clients' businesses firsthand and their 308 - > competitors too. 309 - > Download the app, go on the website, go into the shop, and 310 - > like you'll get so much of a better understanding of how the 311 - > business works, the consumer journey that people will go 312 - > through.

313 - > And I guess the same thing sort of applies to media. 314 - > So, like experience those like new emerging platforms, like go 315 - > on them, mess about a bit. 316 - > And it will uh even just the act of doing that will really 317 - > elevate your kind of understanding of how they work 318 - > as well, which kind of will help help keep you kind of grounded. 319 - > SPEAKER_01: Another thing that Hearts and Science talks a lot 320 - > about is linking media to real commercial outcomes.

321 - > Do you think that there is anything that the industry is 322 - > still underestimating when it comes to driving true business 323 - > growth for your clients? 324 - > SPEAKER_02: I think underestimating is kind of a 325 - > difficult thing to quantify, but I I think the industry still 326 - > probably underestimates how much short-term measurement is 327 - > shaping those longer-term decisions because if you push 328 - > together all of the short-term decisions, you've sort of 329 - > ultimately made a long-term one without even trying to.

330 - > Um, we've got better, there's whole businesses that are really 331 - > focused about in optimizing what's kind of easier to measure 332 - > in the moment versus what might be more important in the long 333 - > term, and that can really quietly pull investment away and 334 - > chip investment away from like things that actually grow 335 - > businesses over time. 336 - > And kind of a part of that is in the kind of more complex media 337 - > landscape is like confusing perhaps reach and scale with 338 - > impact and kind of understanding and you know, starting to 339 - > understand like how we've got kind of new languages and new 340 - > technology and new data points that allow us to kind of 341 - > understand and start to quantify and unpick how all exposures are 342 - > kind of like not equal.

343 - > Like two campaigns that have bought exactly the same 344 - > impressions right across a different in in different ways 345 - > will deliver two completely different outcomes. 346 - > Yes, it's still very important, but it's not the only thing to 347 - > to think about. 348 - > I think there's still a gap in terms of really is it 349 - > incremental? 350 - > Like how much of those numbers that you're seeing that feel 351 - > really comfortable maybe would you've got anyway.

352 - > So, like so thinking about what is really the real impact that 353 - > it's making and really kind of pushing on that and challenging 354 - > yourself to make sure that those kind of people that you're sort 355 - > of taking credit for, I guess, with that type of media have 356 - > really come through the door because you've put money there, 357 - > what would have come through the door anyway? 358 - > And I think there's probably a tendency to to underestimate how 359 - > kind of growth works in kind of a wider ecosystem.

360 - > So like most buyers in any category aren't in market at any 361 - > one time. 362 - > So really understanding that kind of growth depends on 363 - > building that mental availability over time, being 364 - > easy to think about across key category entry points, and kind 365 - > of hearts have done a lot of work in that kind of category 366 - > entry point space. 367 - > But that's about it's essentially about the kind of 368 - > those moments or kind of cues or triggers where people will start 369 - > to think, oh, this is the kind of situation where I need a I 370 - > need a brand, essentially.

371 - > And the flip side of that also is kind of physical 372 - > availability. 373 - > So the brand also needs to be kind of easy to find and buy 374 - > when those moments arrive. 375 - > And if you don't have both of those things, then you're 376 - > probably not going to be as effective as you could be. 377 - > And I think one thing that is underestimated is kind of still 378 - > kind of media retail owned and sort of can operate in quite 379 - > distinct silos.

380 - > So, how do those touch points all kind of work together and 381 - > how they plan together? 382 - > So they're not like isolated incidents, I guess. 383 - > And I think probably something that's underestimated isn't 384 - > necessarily data or tools, it's the measurement framework in and 385 - > of itself. 386 - > So that that being really disciplined about agreeing up 387 - > front, what really will this campaign do?

388 - > Like what what is our expectation here? 389 - > What is everyone's expectation here? 390 - > And agreeing what what success would look like, and and being 391 - > specific over what time frame that success will be, like what 392 - > leading indicators we'll take to sort of satisfy us that we're 393 - > going in the in the right direction, and how different 394 - > metrics might kind of ladder up to to those commercial outcomes. 395 - > If that's missing, kind of teams both internally and externally 396 - > can start to m end up moving towards like proxies that don't 397 - > really drive growth, and then then kind of media plans will 398 - > struggle to be as good as they can be.

399 - > SPEAKER_00: And I absolutely love obviously I won't go into 400 - > specific naming specifically, but like the work that you guys 401 - > have done on high on um category entry point-led planning is 402 - > fantastic. 403 - > I remember seeing it first, I think it was at the Future of 404 - > Brands maybe two years ago. 405 - > And I was like, wow. 406 - > Like some of the examples that they were given there, and then 407 - > there was some work that was presented at one of our media 408 - > planning strategy summits.

409 - > Again, I won't mention the specific client, the the case 410 - > studies I think are on the IPA website. 411 - > But yeah, it was really, really innovative innovative stuff. 412 - > SPEAKER_02: I think what's really interesting about it is 413 - > like all really great insights is when you start to to have a 414 - > way of identifying and prioritizing and activating kind 415 - > of category entry points for specific brands, they are 416 - > obvious in that when you you're like, oh yeah, yeah, that is 417 - > kind of that does make sense, yeah.

418 - > And like a truism, essentially. 419 - > But what's really useful in terms of the kind of the 420 - > approach that we use is that we have kind of a method and 421 - > approach that allows us to kind of quantify that and scale that 422 - > and identify the the kind of right opp right category entry 423 - > point for any brand to be going after at any given time. 424 - > And we've done some really great work with the national lottery 425 - > in this space. 426 - > So a couple of examples, so Euromillions, so one of its core 427 - > category entry points is unsurprisingly life-changing 428 - > prizes because they have really wonderful huge jackpots.

429 - > You know, an example of how we've kind of activated 430 - > specifically within that category entry point, and it's 431 - > allowed us to kind of unpick some of that kind of messy 432 - > middle, is we've been able to kind of tap into a culture with 433 - > more specific partnerships with like the likes of Guardian and 434 - > ACAS content, which is kind of built around like a viral meme 435 - > insight that it's kind of like I wouldn't tell anyone, but but 436 - > there would be signs.

437 - > Yeah. 438 - > So it's like a really fun way of making that that real for 439 - > people. 440 - > Or for, for example, for the Olympics and Paralympics, it was 441 - > about bringing kind of the impact of of the funding that 442 - > that T and I was able to do towards good causes to life. 443 - > So that's kind of alignment across that paid-owned and 444 - > earned piece that we talked about.

445 - > So, for example, there was like a Channel Ford following 446 - > athletes and their kind of like path to Paris. 447 - > But then we also had really kind of reactive social digital 448 - > out-of-home, which allowed us to kind of update assets in real 449 - > time and kind of most up-to-date kind of like medal wins and and 450 - > standout moments. 451 - > So there's kind of different ways in which we can bring those 452 - > category entry points to life in media when they're kind of 453 - > really rich to start to activate within.

454 - > SPEAKER_00: I love that it's it I think it's the set for life, 455 - > the National Lottery Set for Life, some of the work that you 456 - > did around that, because it's some of the things that you, as 457 - > you said, seem obvious, but actually like you miss them, 458 - > like automatically just in everyday living, you miss the 459 - > universal human truths of why these things work. 460 - > And then when I can't remember who it was, I think it was uh 461 - > was it Vicky Fox or somebody, but they said, you know, we're 462 - > to some extent like a we're like archaeologists like dusting away 463 - > with a fossil brush to find actually these unique insights 464 - > that really let really reveal a characteristic or a trait of of 465 - > an audience that may be apparent, but suddenly that 466 - > changes everything.

467 - > And I think I love that. 468 - > I just think that that work is fantastic. 469 - > SPEAKER_02: It's an interesting analogy. 470 - > Like, what are the bones?

471 - > What are the things that like make up the brand? 472 - > And then sometimes brands don't even know that themselves. 473 - > And yeah, the Seth Life one is a is a good one as well because 474 - > the the mechanic of that game is different, as in like it's not 475 - > one big cash prize, it's kind of graduated prizes. 476 - > So the CEP there was about daydreaming about the future.

477 - > So we did kind of a content, like social first content series 478 - > with Channel 4 and Lab Bible, which kind of showed celebrities 479 - > like living out that those kind of moments in terms of what they 480 - > would what they would spend their their sort of money on. 481 - > But we also used a sort of plug, I guess, like stuff like touch 482 - > points data. 483 - > The mood data, how do we use kind of that sort of audience 484 - > insight to sort of tap into kind of those daydreaming moments?

485 - > And how do we pull that across different kind of platforms and 486 - > strategies as well? 487 - > So there's there's like a number of ways in which we can use 488 - > category entry points really effectively. 489 - > SPEAKER_00: From our perspective at the IPA, we obviously we work 490 - > day in and day out on touch points and we absolutely love 491 - > touch points. 492 - > But one of the things that for us, like when we see people 493 - > using touch points and doing amazing innovative stuff, look, 494 - > we could never come up with that.

495 - > Like the stuff you guys come up with is is fantastic. 496 - > But it's almost like seeing your kids go off to college, you 497 - > know. 498 - > SPEAKER_02: You feel really proud, you're like, that's the 499 - > use case I don't think of. 500 - > SPEAKER_00: And that's that's the thing, I think it it really 501 - > demonstrates why such great strategists, planners, insight 502 - > professionals are so important because they come up with stuff 503 - > that you would never in a million years think of, but and 504 - > do such innovative things, and it's yeah, really exciting to 505 - > see.

506 - > One of the other questions I wanted to ask you is obviously 507 - > we're in that time now where it we've got more data than we've 508 - > ever had. 509 - > And as we said, the more you know, the more you know you 510 - > don't know. 511 - > What would you say? 512 - > You know, many brands are, of course, data rich but insight 513 - > poor.

514 - > What are the practical ways agencies can help clients sort 515 - > of move from like dashboards to decisions? 516 - > How do you when you've got so much to work with, what's the 517 - > particular kind of skill or tip that you would give to where to 518 - > stop? 519 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I think that's being a good 520 - > strategist or planner is about making choices. 521 - > And sometimes you will definitely go down an 522 - > exploratory avenue and it's like, no, no, that's not okay.

523 - > But I think any brand that's obviously running kind of a lot 524 - > of media channels and has got a significant investment is going 525 - > to be generating a lot of media data. 526 - > So there's that, and you know, dashboards are fantastic at kind 527 - > of triangulating that data into like one source of truth, so 528 - > loads of people can access it, you can sit in one place, and 529 - > that it makes it easier to kind of extract insight from that. 530 - > But clients often sit on kind of rich data that kind of sits 531 - > outside media as well, and I think that's really interesting.

532 - > Like they're gonna have such a good understanding and a deep 533 - > customer and audience knowledge, they're gonna sit on loads of 534 - > business and sales data, they're gonna know about their product 535 - > pipelines, they're gonna know what phasing means for their 536 - > business, they're gonna know how pricing works, they're gonna 537 - > understand a level of competitor dynamics as well. 538 - > And all of that context is like hugely valuable in shaping 539 - > effective media plans, but it isn't always always applied to 540 - > media decisions.

541 - > And some of that might be because like clients' businesses 542 - > are a little bit siloed in some ways. 543 - > Like that might be information that sits elsewhere. 544 - > So I think one thing an agency can put into it is like 545 - > connecting those dots and like taking that information and 546 - > applying it. 547 - > I think clear aligned measures of success, but like what are we 548 - > looking for in this dashboard, like or what the data points 549 - > that are interesting, because you can track loads of things, 550 - > but what things are important is really critical.

551 - > And if you've agreed what success looks like and what data 552 - > points you're gonna use to know whether you've got there or not, 553 - > that's really important. 554 - > But then the question I think you should always ask yourself 555 - > if in terms of a practical tip, and I've probably say this 556 - > enough to like teams internally that find it annoying, but it's 557 - > like, so what? 558 - > It's like just because you're right, great, you find it 559 - > interesting, cool, but like what are we gonna do with it?

560 - > Yeah, like because because you can sometimes get a bit sucked 561 - > into the like, oh, I found something, oh look at this. 562 - > And it's like, okay, fine, but like, so what we're gonna do? 563 - > If it doesn't make any difference to anything, if 564 - > there's nothing we can apply for, then it then ultimately it 565 - > might be interesting, but it doesn't matter to what we're 566 - > doing right now. 567 - > I think the way in which we've talked to AI is relevant here as 568 - > well, in that it's a useful starting point because it can 569 - > obviously like quickly scan huge data sets and start to pull out 570 - > like initial hypotheses and and shortcut some of the the time it 571 - > takes to sort of go through those kind of big data sets.

572 - > And then the kind of human judgment is about okay, so what 573 - > what one of these hypotheses do I find interesting? 574 - > Which avenue I'm gonna explore further, which ones am I gonna 575 - > stress test? 576 - > And how can I take the the kind of hypotheses that it's pulled 577 - > from that and then apply it to kind of wider contexts, either 578 - > from like a business or an audience or a media choice 579 - > perspective. 580 - > So like the dashboards might organize the information, but 581 - > the value comes from applying that information for kind of 582 - > better decisions.

583 - > SPEAKER_00: Caroline Manning said on it was on the last 584 - > review we talked about a little bit on the podcast, where she 585 - > said AI is like kind of an Iron Man suit, but you've got to have 586 - > the person, like Tony Stark, I think it is, who sits with the 587 - > internet exactly. 588 - > And that's where I think that it's that harmony. 589 - > Because AI, in many ways, is is another tool in our Arsenal for 590 - > better understanding things or perhaps breaking down things in 591 - > ways that we weren't able to do before.

592 - > You've already mentioned some examples there, but where do you 593 - > think it genuinely is adding value in media planning strategy 594 - > right now? 595 - > Or or where do you think it's still more kind of promise than 596 - > practice? 597 - > SPEAKER_02: AI's already been adding value in kind of media 598 - > activation for quite a while now, particularly within 599 - > platforms where it does stuff like automating bidding and 600 - > pacing and optimization and at scale and use well, that can be 601 - > really helpful, especially for more kind of performance-led 602 - > activity.

603 - > But even then, I think it works best with kind of really human 604 - > oversight and clearly defined objectives and guard vials 605 - > rather than set it and then forget about it. 606 - > Yeah, yeah. 607 - > Solutions. 608 - > And I think where it adds value is managing that kind of scale 609 - > and complexity.

610 - > It takes large data sets, it can distill them into patterns or 611 - > scenarios that you perhaps might not have thought about 612 - > immediately. 613 - > And that means that as kind of planners, we can react more 614 - > quickly to stuff. 615 - > So that's that's really that's kind of accelerating thinking 616 - > rather than replacing it, is really critical. 617 - > And you know, it's talked about a lot, but like freeing up more, 618 - > we're all very busy, so like freeing up time to do the kind 619 - > of pieces of work which will actually make a difference and 620 - > add add value.

621 - > Omnicon, we use kind of AI within Omni, which is our kind 622 - > of unified operating system. 623 - > AI, including kind of a Gentec AI systems, operates kind of 624 - > end-to-end across that client life cycle through insight and 625 - > planning to activation and measurement. 626 - > But the the role of these systems is kind of orchestration 627 - > rather than autonomy, like you're still the person in the 628 - > suit in your analogy. 629 - > You're connecting the data, you're kind of surfacing the 630 - > options, you're running different scenarios, you're 631 - > stress testing the output.

632 - > It's not and keeping that human judgment and like accountability 633 - > at the forefront. 634 - > I think one of the places we're seeing it really add value is 635 - > through synthetic audiences. 636 - > So having that really obviously more complex, uh detailed 637 - > audience work is still hugely valuable, but having that kind 638 - > of super fast, accessible route to an audience insight that 639 - > previously would have perhaps not been available for many 640 - > brands is kind of really useful as well and really good for that 641 - > kind of hypothesis-building exploratory stage.

642 - > I think what's kind of important is AI is still best used when 643 - > you bring like thought and experience and vigour to what 644 - > you're doing. 645 - > And it's like any brief, really, in terms of prompting and your 646 - > interaction with kind of AI agents, the stronger and more 647 - > specific and well thought through the brief, the better 648 - > the output. 649 - > So a clearer brief will give you a better answer. 650 - > And how good you are at writing a brief is sort of also how good 651 - > you are at your job.

652 - > I think having that is really important and having the kind of 653 - > critical thinking skills to like stress test all the outputs as 654 - > well, rather than just moving to a world where you're putting 655 - > something in and accepting the answer immediately. 656 - > I think that kind of sense checking, that look at accuracy 657 - > is is more important, not less, really. 658 - > I think I don't think we're in a space where there's kind of like 659 - > autonomous decision making across channel campaigns, yep, 660 - > because there was so much complexity and like things to 661 - > consider when interpreting a brief or like making trade-offs 662 - > between different channels or short-term efficiencies with 663 - > kind of longer-term effectiveness, and media 664 - > decisions are still really context-dependent as well.

665 - > So there's kind of commercial, cultural, forward-facing things 666 - > rather than retrospective things, which is often what the 667 - > data sets are going to be based on. 668 - > So it still needs that. 669 - > So fortunately, I think we've we've still got a job. 670 - > Oh, certainly.

671 - > For a while, yeah. 672 - > SPEAKER_01: You've mentioned there that as we increasingly 673 - > move towards automation, or we have had a lot of things 674 - > automated that judgment, human judgment is obviously still 675 - > completely vital. 676 - > Are there any other human skills that you think become more 677 - > important with AI, or is that sort of things that you've 678 - > basically just touched on, like sense making and judgment and 679 - > common sense and judgment, absolutely, but definitely kind 680 - > of grounding that in the fundamentals.

681 - > SPEAKER_02: Like if you have a really solid understanding of 682 - > kind of marketing science, how brands grow, how people are 683 - > going to buy stuff, what drives effectiveness out of time over 684 - > time, without that grounding, it's gonna become really hard to 685 - > know if the output makes any sense or not. 686 - > So no matter how ad advanced the kind of tool or data or how it 687 - > ends with years. 688 - > So I think they need to be able to kind of sense check and like 689 - > stress test that that output and knowing when something's sort of 690 - > like strategically questionable, even when like maybe the data 691 - > says that it's the best thing, because it's not going to 692 - > replace that kind of creativity either.

693 - > That that's really another critical part of that role. 694 - > And when I say creativity, I sort of mean it in like a number 695 - > of ways. 696 - > Like there's creativity in designing kind of a truly like 697 - > media first, innovative, never done before solution for 698 - > clients, and that's absolutely absolutely still got a space. 699 - > But there's creativity in how you connect complexity and and 700 - > different data sets, and how and that's still super valuable.

701 - > So, how do you use kind of different data points, different 702 - > signals, different research, different constraints to arrive 703 - > at a kind of a strong recommendation that's backed by 704 - > rigor, but also that kind of creativity? 705 - > And I don't I also don't think it's like that different. 706 - > Like planners love tools and data and tech. 707 - > Like we love getting into it and like figuring out what the 708 - > outputs are based on, like what assumptions sit beneath them, 709 - > like what the blind spots might be, what the methodology is.

710 - > And you sit in a meeting with a planner, they're gonna be like, 711 - > sorry, what's the source on that chart? 712 - > Talk me through the axes here. 713 - > And I think that's kind of where you can use automation really 714 - > intelligently, but like not be led by it. 715 - > Um I think the human role is kind of perhaps shifting a 716 - > little bit from like doing the the do on some tasks, but I'm 717 - > I'm sure there are jobs that kind of things that AI and 718 - > automation will create that I couldn't even guess what they 719 - > are right now.

720 - > So it's also about when you're in a world where actually you 721 - > can surface a lot of information really fast. 722 - > Like what are the things you're not gonna do is just as 723 - > important as things that you are gonna do. 724 - > So understanding what you're not gonna chase and being being able 725 - > to be confident enough to say, yeah, it's kind of interesting, 726 - > but it's not the answer, and it's not gonna help me show the 727 - > answer, is a differentiator.

728 - > So I I don't think it's that different in terms of the like 729 - > secret source of being really good at planning isn't just your 730 - > ability to use a tool and pull out a data point. 731 - > It's like the judgment, the experience, the creativity that 732 - > you apply over the top of that. 733 - > And how do you like navigate through all the complexity in a 734 - > way that makes it much simpler for for clients and delivers 735 - > plans that will actually drive kind of businesses forward 736 - > remains the same.

737 - > SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're gonna come now on to a little bit more 738 - > uh things about related to kind of like traditional planning 739 - > models in kind of an increasingly fragmented world as 740 - > time goes on. 741 - > You you're dealing with more and more, not just media properties, 742 - > but also more and more options within that, more and more data 743 - > sets and so many different things to pull you in so many 744 - > different ways. 745 - > I mean, do you think traditional planning models are still I mean 746 - > we we always use that phrase fit for purpose, but you know, are 747 - > they are are they still fit for purpose?

748 - > Everything's evolutionary, right? 749 - > SPEAKER_02: When you say planning models, are you talking 750 - > like reach, frequency, phasing, like to a voice, like that that 751 - > that sort of thing? 752 - > Because obviously those things are still in course, absolutely, 753 - > yeah, yeah, yeah. 754 - > But there are to your point like evolutionary ways of of thinking 755 - > of them.

756 - > Like I think they are still foundational, like what 757 - > audiences are doing, how many of them are there, how are they 758 - > spending their time? 759 - > Like they're still obviously critical in kind of driving how 760 - > advertising works and how brands grow. 761 - > But like the the environment, I guess, is is constantly 762 - > changing. 763 - > So the way in which we think about those things and and how 764 - > we apply them across a kind of more fragmented platform-led 765 - > ecosystem kind of has to evolve.

766 - > Yes. 767 - > And I think that's probably always been the case. 768 - > But audiences are obviously kind of spending more time in in 769 - > different spaces than ever before. 770 - > Scale on its own probably isn't enough.

771 - > Attention's a really good example of how perhaps it's not 772 - > just thinking about reach, it's thinking about attentive reach 773 - > to give us kind of a language to understand the complexity of how 774 - > people actually consume media rather than one impression being 775 - > exactly the same as one impress somewhere else and and they're 776 - > all and they're all equal. 777 - > So it it sort of you know allows us to think a little bit widely 778 - > about not what just we think they might have seen, but 779 - > actually to to what they potentially have seen and also 780 - > noticed or heard.

781 - > So kind of re that doesn't mean to say that reach isn't still a 782 - > fundamental, obviously it is. 783 - > When we can start to use things like attention as a kind of a 784 - > proxy for kind of quality reach and making sure that we're 785 - > driving those outcomes so that the ads aren't just delivered 786 - > and viewable. 787 - > Yeah, yeah. 788 - > They're they're also kind of registered at scale.

789 - > But even with that, that comes with a lot of complexity as 790 - > well, because attention is kind of used in a lot of different 791 - > ways. 792 - > And and I think even the conversation in that space has 793 - > sort of moved on. 794 - > And I don't think it's a case now, really, where there's this 795 - > idea that just get more of attention. 796 - > Like that's it.

797 - > Just get more. 798 - > Doesn't matter what it costs, it just has to be more. 799 - > Like, and it just that's better. 800 - > Like whatever you're doing, that is better.

801 - > SPEAKER_00: Sometimes if something's measurable, then you 802 - > optimise towards maximizing. 803 - > I just want the most. 804 - > And and actually, like, I mean, a particularly good media that 805 - > that really resonates with me is like radio. 806 - > Because actually, radio is a is theoretically a lower attention, 807 - > direct attention environment.

808 - > But actually, in terms of driving brand consideration or 809 - > some of those really important sort of campaign synergies there 810 - > can be really, really valuable. 811 - > SPEAKER_02: I think then it's about thinking about what are 812 - > you trying to do with your campaign and like where are you 813 - > in that life cycle of your campaign. 814 - > So, like different types of attention, like audio, if it's 815 - > more secondary, are really valuable, but they have to be 816 - > fit for fit for purpose, I guess, and attention can play 817 - > different roles.

818 - > So, like shorter attention can be really valuable if you're in 819 - > the point of a campaign where it's right near the point of 820 - > purchase, you want to prompt or nudge people, but there might be 821 - > other contexts or campaigns where actually it's a brand new 822 - > product, no one's ever heard of it in it before, they don't know 823 - > what it does, and they it really needs explaining, then that 824 - > potentially would need more attention. 825 - > So you at uh we're sort of focused on finding the right 826 - > type and like optimal level of attention for each campaign, so 827 - > balancing that to make sure we're we're staying cost 828 - > effective.

829 - > But like interestingly, I mean we've we do we've been doing 830 - > some quite quite a lot of work with Karen Nelson Field, and she 831 - > talks a lot about this, but like, and then there's like a 832 - > step below that. 833 - > Yes, you can use that to sort of shape channel decisions and like 834 - > the shape of your plan. 835 - > But then when you get down to more kind of platform and 836 - > formats, there's essentially kind of a sort of corridor of 837 - > attention that that each platform can only deliver at the 838 - > top and the bottom of.

839 - > And our job is to obviously make sure that we're more towards the 840 - > top end of that corridor, but there's nuance within attention, 841 - > even when you kind of unpack it to that level. 842 - > We do a lot of work with amplified intelligence in kind 843 - > of generating our own attention data across platforms and 844 - > formats so we can really understand down to that kind of 845 - > impression level, like what is the right format on what 846 - > platform to deliver the X objective.

847 - > And you you do need that level of scrutiny, I guess, to really 848 - > unpick that. 849 - > And I guess the same sort of thinking applies to category 850 - > entry points. 851 - > Category entry points isn't necessarily in- I think oh, when 852 - > did Half Browns go come up? 853 - > Probably don't know the date.

854 - > But the principle hasn't changed, in effect. 855 - > But brands need to be kind of mental, mentally available at 856 - > moments that they will matter in. 857 - > But those moments are like really disparate and across 858 - > loads in terms of like media across lots of different 859 - > platforms in a really complex media system. 860 - > So, like, how do you connect those all together becomes a 861 - > harder job.

862 - > So the fundamentals still stands, but the application in 863 - > in practice, the turning the theory into practice becomes 864 - > perhaps something a bit different. 865 - > So it's probably not about starting from scratch, it's 866 - > about kind of holding on to those fundamentals, but 867 - > understanding like the the truth of the ecosystem that you're 868 - > operating on and how you have to adapt them to be meaningful now. 869 - > SPEAKER_00: Do you find that increasingly as maybe digital 870 - > pure play media channels are eminently reportable?

871 - > Like in terms of there's easily reportable data on the potential 872 - > impact of campaigns. 873 - > Does it become harder to get sign off or to justify channels 874 - > that maybe don't have that? 875 - > More traditional channels, should we say, that perhaps 876 - > don't have those fast metrics available to them? 877 - > But is there a tension there, do you think?

878 - > SPEAKER_02: Like I think it depends on the client. 879 - > There's not a one-size answer to that and what you're trying to 880 - > do. 881 - > Like there is obviously a kind of tension for clients, I think, 882 - > to sort of prove out marketing's worth, I guess, a lot more than 883 - > in the past. 884 - > And I think you have to recognise that often our clients 885 - > have media as part of their job.

886 - > It's probably not their whole job, I imagine. 887 - > And they operate with kind of lots of different remit across 888 - > lots of different things. 889 - > They're probably not just like a custodian of a media budget. 890 - > So they're responsible for kind of like growth and demand and 891 - > like generating those sort of things, and you know, how 892 - > customers experience their brand and media is kind of one lever 893 - > they have to pull within that.

894 - > And I think where we as agencies can support clients is about 895 - > making sure that they can like operate at that commercial level 896 - > in their businesses. 897 - > So, like talking in a language that kind of finance and 898 - > leadership understand and framing kind of marketing as 899 - > that investment that drives demand in the long term, that 900 - > future demand, rather than just harvesting existing demand, 901 - > perhaps, which is the distinction. 902 - > And you know, the impact that that kind of that future brand 903 - > spend can have on things that sit outside of immediate 904 - > response, like pricing power, like brand strength.

905 - > So that's not a cost that's just tied to short-term metrics, 906 - > which are often quite media-based as well. 907 - > I can't imagine many chief finance officers really give a 908 - > shit about like how viewable something is, or like that's not 909 - > a language that they're gonna be particularly impressed by. 910 - > So making sure that you're talking talking in that in that 911 - > language is is really important. 912 - > Often some of that disconnect comes from like misalignment on 913 - > like what on realistic expectations about I think you 914 - > have to have a real conversation about what what you're planning 915 - > to do and whether it will deliver what the client wants to 916 - > do.

917 - > And if it doesn't, you need to look at a different plan. 918 - > Like and and being really clear, clear-sighted about that, and 919 - > making sure you don't end up in a pickle where like brand 920 - > investment is going to be judged by what it's done like the first 921 - > day it's launched or something, because that that will end up 922 - > creating kind of friction and a focus on kind of more 923 - > short-termism. 924 - > So kind of setting realistic timelines and expectations is 925 - > super important, and I think also supporting clients to bring 926 - > the rest of their organizations with them.

927 - > So, like, how can you be clear on what marketing's going to 928 - > contribute and help them develop that understanding in a business 929 - > to make it easier to kind of hold the line on doing things 930 - > that are more focused on long-term investment when 931 - > obviously there are kind of a lot of shorter-term pressure 932 - > pressures for clients. 933 - > So I think like having those confident evidence-based 934 - > conversations earlier on is super important, and making sure 935 - > that they're kind of communicated more widely to the 936 - > rest of the business.

937 - > SPEAKER_01: Talking about long-term impact brings me on to 938 - > my final future-facing question. 939 - > But obviously, no one can make concrete predic predictions 940 - > about what the future's gonna look like, especially when it's 941 - > ever changing at the moment. 942 - > But if we were to have this conversation again in a few 943 - > years' time, is there anything that you think may have changed 944 - > considerably about media agencies and and the roles that 945 - > they play for brands?

946 - > SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't think any of these things are 947 - > gonna be particularly surprising because they're kind of we're at 948 - > the sort of inflection points on some of these things already, so 949 - > they're they'll just build as we move move forward. 950 - > But discoverability is gonna be a huge shift, particularly in 951 - > search, like how how people like that convergence of platform 952 - > essentially, how people are using lots of different like 953 - > people use social to search, people use kind of retail sites 954 - > to search, people like the way in which those those interact 955 - > are gonna be really important, especially also around the kind 956 - > of greater use of AI and large language models, and how that 957 - > surfaces data within within search mod models and kind of 958 - > that more conversational search behavior that we're all starting 959 - > to.

960 - > It's not one or two words anymore, it's like strings of 961 - > sentences. 962 - > So, like search isn't just something you Do on like one 963 - > platform, it's happening across lots of different platforms and 964 - > formats and contexts. 965 - > And that's that's really important because that is a 966 - > space where people both discover brands but also convert to 967 - > brands as well. 968 - > So that's a really interesting space.

969 - > I think that links quite closely with category entry points. 970 - > Like what's really interesting is to start to unpick like, how 971 - > do you make sure that you are showing up in those spaces? 972 - > And there is a whole mix of kind of different data sources for 973 - > different different AI models that that uses different data 974 - > sets to surface brands. 975 - > How do we get smarter about the way in which we use media to 976 - > show up in those spaces?

977 - > And that might change the types of decisions that we make. 978 - > So one decision might not make sense just from a reach 979 - > perspective, but then if it's like actually this will mean 980 - > that you're top of the list when someone does a search query in a 981 - > sort of copilot or a chat GPT, and that will deliver X. 982 - > Like that then becomes a different kind of data point we 983 - > have to consider when making decisions and understanding how 984 - > kind of consumers when discovery fragments, how we can connect 985 - > with consumers in that world.

986 - > I think that's super interesting and a space that will continue 987 - > to evolve. 988 - > I think we're already seeing loads of channels hit like kind 989 - > of digital tipping points, digital, even as a kind of word 990 - > or being channel-led is sort of a bit unhelpful now because like 991 - > what isn't? 992 - > TV's continuing to become addressable. 993 - > There's kind of releases this year that's going to see that 994 - > rise pretty quickly.

995 - > I think we'll see the continued rise of kind of meet out media 996 - > as more things become more shoppable, more instant, more 997 - > buyable from a consumer perspective. 998 - > I'd spent some time recently in the kind of influencer space, 999 - > and that's a really interesting space as well, because there is 1000 - > so many overlaps with loads of different things. 1001 - > Kind of paid on demand, it's kind of also creative, it's kind 1002 - > of also sort of a brand ambassador, and it's kind of 1003 - > also sort of media, and the ways in which you guys are in that 1004 - > space have shown that there is kind of a really rich 1005 - > opportunity in terms of driving kind of longer-term ROI, but 1006 - > there is also a huge disparity in the types of results that you 1007 - > can get from influencers.

1008 - > So I think that space will continue to evolve, and I think 1009 - > we'll continue to see more kind of robustness, I guess, and and 1010 - > more kind of measurement and data in that space because as 1011 - > sort of it becomes a bit more grown up, I guess, if we're 1012 - > going to think about it like that. 1013 - > Um but from a consumer perspective, I don't think they 1014 - > really care. 1015 - > Like it's just all video, it's all entertainment, it's all 1016 - > whatever.

1017 - > It's not really channels, so I'm not sure. 1018 - > I think the way in which we need to think that kind of broken 1019 - > down silo thinking just isn't super helpful anymore. 1020 - > So I think we'll continue to see a move to being more kind of 1021 - > consumer-centred rather than organized around kind of media 1022 - > silos, I guess. 1023 - > And it like as addressability grows, like, how do we do that 1024 - > in a way that isn't just about precision, it's also about 1025 - > scale?

1026 - > I think that that's going to be a really important thing moving 1027 - > forwards. 1028 - > And I think the agency's role will remain relatively similar 1029 - > in that it will be our job to sort of connect the dots across 1030 - > that complexity and make it meaningful for clients and make 1031 - > sure that they can benefit from the scale and diversification 1032 - > and opportunity that might have without, but also balancing that 1033 - > without chasing every single new thing that will come up in the 1034 - > next three years.

1035 - > So I'm sure there will be new stuff that we don't even know 1036 - > about yet. 1037 - > So I don't think the kind of fundamentals will change, but 1038 - > how confidently the industry kind of applies them in that 1039 - > kind of more complex, addressable, AI-driven world 1040 - > will probably change, and how we design kind of planning systems 1041 - > to make sure we're connecting with people across these 1042 - > different spaces will evolve too. 1043 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's so much exciting stuff going on.

1044 - > But also, like the more we we talk to people kind of in the 1045 - > planning and strategy space, the more you kind of realize, you 1046 - > know, there's never been a more exciting time to be a planner 1047 - > than right now, because there's so much change. 1048 - > Compare being a TV planner in the 80s, you know, versus what 1049 - > what being a planner like to today. 1050 - > It's there's never been a more exciting time. 1051 - > And the wonderful, I think, I think the more people that we 1052 - > talk to on the podcast is that level of excitement and 1053 - > enthusiasm for those challenges which may be coming down the 1054 - > line.

1055 - > We don't really know what they're going to look like, what 1056 - > the industry's going to look like, or how things are going to 1057 - > change, but it's that embracing that curiosity, which I think 1058 - > seems to be the the fundamental skill of what makes a great 1059 - > partner. 1060 - > SPEAKER_02: Curiosity, that appetite for learning, that 1061 - > appreciating that we get to do a really fun, interesting job. 1062 - > Like my dad was a metal sheet engineer and had to go to a 1063 - > factory every day that he absolutely hated.

1064 - > I get he could never even get his head around that this is 1065 - > what I did. 1066 - > Like I'd go to meetings and there'd probably be a hot drink. 1067 - > There might even be some free snacks. 1068 - > And what I wouldn't be like making anything with my hands.

1069 - > I would be I'm essentially paid for what's in my brain and like 1070 - > what I can come up with. 1071 - > And I I think that is a real privilege that I'm sort of in 1072 - > that position and I get to do that, so I do sort of bear that 1073 - > in mind. 1074 - > And I do find it really energizing to be able to kind of 1075 - > learn stuff constantly. 1076 - > And you know, I was a TV planner, but not quite in the 1077 - > 80s.

1078 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, Tessa, honestly, thank you so much for 1079 - > coming in today's talk. 1080 - > It's been really, really fascinating and really exciting 1081 - > session. 1082 - > Yeah, it's been a great conversation. 1083 - > Thank you so much.

1084 - > Thank you.