Episode 215: The missing link between creativity and commercial impact, with Omne

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Hello everyone and welcome to the B2B Marketing Podcast in association with Omni. My name is Kavita Singh. I'm head of Growth Solutions content at B2B Marketing. And today we are, uh, joined in the studio with UK Agency of the Year and the food service marketing agency Omni. I'm joined with Anna Massey, the strategy director over at Omni, as well as Andrew Green, the creative director over at Omni with. Welcome both. How are we doing today?

Speaker C: Hey, Kavita. Yeah, great, great. Good to be back.

Speaker A: Nice to meet you.

Speaker B: Yeah, really great to have you both on. Um, well, I've had you on Anna, obviously. Um, and Andrew, you're new, but just um, for the sake of our audience, can you introduce yourselves and tell me a little bit about your roles?

Speaker C: Uh, hi. Yeah, so, um, I'm Anna. I'm the strategy director at Omni. Uh, my role is, uh, pretty much in the title, uh, but I head up, uh, and oversee the strategy, uh, content and performance division, uh, of Omni. I've been in food service marketing, which is our industry, as you've said, uh, for nearly 20 years, which is quite shocking. Uh, but yeah, great, great to be here today.

Speaker B: Awesome. And Andrew.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm M. Omni's creative director, um, been with the agency now about four years, which seems to have flown by. But, um, I'm the bridge sort of between Anna's strategy and the, the creative team. The kind of connects it all together and, yeah, outputs the work.

Speaker B: Amazing. Yeah. Well, um, I guess it's quite fitting because today's topic is all about the role of creativity and commercial marketing. I, um, think in our industry there does seem to be a clear tension. So why does B2B marketing sort of still treat creativity and commercial results as a trade off? And you know, do you think that tension is sort of increasing?

Speaker C: Well, first of all, it's good to know it's not going to be a fight between myself and Andy on creativity versus commerciality. We're pretty, uh, joined up in that. Uh, no, I think, um, it is, it is increasing. I think really when we think about that trade off of creativity versus commerciality, I think it's a, it's a false choice, but I do think it's one that B2B has almost trained itself into. Um, certainly something that I feel, I know others do, is over the last decade we have as an industry become much better at performance marketing and proving what marketing is doing, which is super important and very helpful to the cause. But the side effect that we, I'd say That we have felt is that we're starting to see that clients potentially are valuing the things that we can prove quickly more than the things that people actually remember us by. Um, and I think the challenge is when we think about our client set, you know what, what marketeer has come into this world is not believing in creativity. No one consciously sets out to trade off for commerciality, but it does often like it does often happen. And actually performance first can feel safer. So the numbers performance can end up being your quick win because it creates that defensibility. Um, but the issue isn't really measurement, it's often permission. We find within our client base being able to say this might not be the safest route, but it is a creative route and it's a thing that's going to actually make people remember us by, you know, that's. We understand that, we see that, we see that challenge.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think the irony is a lot of it can feel Quite safe in B2B marketing and you know, it's safe inside the business. Um, but in the real world that just disappears and it becomes invisible because of lack of creative cut through. So sort of like from the point of a creative point of view, it's like the treated like the risky bit maybe, um, the color, the polish, the thing you had after sort of the real serious commercial thinking's been added and it's happened. But you know, reality is that's backwards. You know, good creativity is commercial thinking made memorable. Um, uh, B2B buying is rational, of course, but uh, budget, stakeholders, procurement processes, risks, all of that. Um, people don't stop being human because they're buying for a business. They still remember stories, they still need to feel that a brand understands the pressure they're under. Um, so I do think the tension is increasing. Tighter budget, sales, team want leads and they want now everyone wants proof faster. Um, but that makes creativity even more important. Um, because when everyone's under pressure work that sounds like everyone else, it just becomes invisible.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's the key point. More measurement should make us braver because we have more ways to understand what's working. But in reality it can also make people more cautious. You default to what's easiest to defend rather than actually truly what's the most effective.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I definitely agree with that. I think people can kind of fall into that mindset of wanting that quick win. So I guess when, when clients come to, how often are they already leaning too far towards that performance piece over brand?

Speaker C: Yeah, quite often. But it's completely Understandable, because if you're, you're under the pressure to deliver results this quarter, you're going to gravitate towards things that look measurable in this quarter. Clicks, leads, the engagement. I mean, it's the pipeline. Those things, of course they matter, but I guess they don't tell the whole story. If you only optimize for the format or uh, through the channel or what is immediately visible, you can slowly strip out the things that make the work effective in the first place. And for me that's that distinctiveness and memorability. So I guess from a performance perspective, you know, the work might become more efficient and effective, but is it, is it becoming less impactful in that process? Are we losing something special?

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. You ask, um, you end up asking the bottom of the funnel to do all the work. Performance is brilliant at capturing existing demand, but the brand creates the future demand. If the brand isn't distinctive or memorable, then what's performance? Even working with a practical example would be a campaign that gets a decent number of clicks. But when sales follow up, the conversation is cold because the brand hasn't created any real meaning beforehand. The buyer M might have interacted, but they haven't remembered you or connected you with a problem that matters.

Speaker C: I think that's where it's so important to have the right systems around the creative work as well. Because when you can see how creative engagement is connecting to audience behavior, it becomes much easier to then defend better creative work in the future.

Speaker B: M. Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, I get, I guess with that being said, what does commercially effective creativity actually look like in B2B marketing? Because you guys do a lot of creative work. Um, so I guess it'd be great to know, like where does that sort of lie?

Speaker C: For me, it just remains to be the fact that it's, it's work that people notice that they remember and fundamentally they act on. I, ah, appreciate that's an incredibly simple way of looking at it, but I'd say a lot of B2B work that is out there doesn't quite clear that bar. Um, and it can, it can be accurate, it could be well targeted, it can say all the right things, but if it's forgettable, it does become weak.

Speaker A: Um, I'd say it's got to have a job to do. Um, sometimes it's got to make someone stop. Sometimes it's got to make the really complex feel simple. Sometimes it's just to give a stronger sales story. Um, and sometimes it's to make the buyer feel understood. Um, but it really has to earn its place. You know, if creativity is only there to decorate a message, it's not really creativity. It's just styling, coloring in coloring, uh, in gorgeous place. Yes. The best B2B2B creative usually moves from the brand saying, here's what we sell to, here's the problem. We understand better than anyone else. That's a big shift.

Speaker C: Yeah. Commercially that matters because it gives marketing a clearer story and fundamentally that then it gives sales a better sales conversation and the buyer a stronger reason to give a. Well to care.

Speaker B: Um, I guess it'd be interesting to know what are brands sort of getting wrong when they separate brand and demand generation.

Speaker C: So you're saying when one part of marketing is focused on making people aware of you, another part is focused on generating leads? In that sense, yeah. I think that's where brands can get into trouble because we often talk about marketing in these really neat funnel, linear, uh, stages. But customers don't experience it that way. You know, it's much messier and they just experience your brand. So you can't treat brand and demand as two separate things. Brands should make demand easier and demand should reinforce the brand. They're interconnected, for sure.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: They should feel like one and the same thing, like one conversation. Brand gives the people a reason to care, but demand gives them a reason to act. Um, but they need to come from the same idea. Otherwise the work starts to split. You can have a brand campaign that looks great, um, but sales can't really use it. Or you can have a demand campaign that gets clicks but nobody remembers who it was from. That's the missed opportunity. The best work builds recognition before someone's ready to buy and then gives them a clear reason to move when they are.

Speaker C: Yeah, and that's especially important in B2B because you can't just show up at the point of purchase. We know that you can't expect to be chosen. It's pretty serendipitous. You need to have earned a place in that buyer's mind before that moment.

Speaker B: I think a lot of people sort of see brand and demand as that same tension with sort of creativity versus commercial marketing. So I think if they just see those two as like working together, I think it'd be more effective, for sure. Do you think that there's still a perception problem around creativity in B2B? Sort of being seen as nice to have and not essential?

Speaker C: That's a really good question.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Creativity is still seen as the bit you add at the end of the sort of campaign, you know, to make it look a bit better. Um, but proper creativity is much more strategic than that. Um, it's how you find the sharpest way to sort of tune into the audience. It's how you make the complex message simple. It's how you turn a business problem into something people can actually care about. I think that problem often comes from how creativity is presented. If it's framed as taste or it becomes personal, like one person likes it, another person doesn't. Suddenly, that's really subjective. Um, if you frame the idea around a problem, it's solving the audience attention, um, answering the commercial job it needs to do, it becomes much harder to dismiss.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, so creativity is not a nice to have. It's the way of sort of creating clarity, difference and memory. Um, and those are the commercial assets.

Speaker C: Absolutely right. It's all in the framing. And, you know, it's kind of, kind of our job within the agency. But I think, let's have it. I mean, clients aren't usually rejecting creativity because they dislike creative work. Back to that point, you know, we all believe in creativity, but they are increasingly so. I believe in this market, you know, I won't die on this hill. But they are often rejecting uncertainty because their own defensibility, because of all the challenges that we face in the wider, uh, marketing industry. So part of our job in the agency is to make that creative leap, feel grounded, to give them that, that confidence. And we need to show why the IDE is right, not just subjectively why we, as an agency, like it.

Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, you know, if you're going to be brave and sort of push, push the creativity, then, you know, you need a real good reason why, you know, you can be bold. But, um, you need to have that thinking behind it to back it up. We're not asking them to sort of, you know, take a creative gamble, um, just for fun. You know, it's helping them avoid commercial risk. Um, if they were just being ignored.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's interesting because, yeah, I would agree that, you know, people aren't rejecting creative ideas. It actually probably stands out to them and they want to be able to use them. But there's probably like the. Is it the left side of their brain that's probably telling them like, oh, like what, what's the impact? What are we proving in terms of the roi? So I think that's sort of where those commercial results and those commercial metrics can kind of come in.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that can kind of anchor the creativity. So um, yeah, definitely agree with that. Um, I think you mentioned before that you see insight as sort of, um, a missing link, you know? What do you mean by that in practice?

Speaker C: Oh, I think I might have said that before as well. Yeah. Um, yeah, I just think that insight is one of those words that does get banded about quite a lot. Um, and I think we often use it incorrectly when we really just mean we have information. Um, and for me, and for many, a proper insight isn't just a statistic or a trend. It's. It's a thing that actually makes you go, all right, that's, that's what's going on here. Right. Okay. It helps you see the problem differently. Ah. And fundamentally. And the intent of it is. It is, it changes what you do next. Otherwise, strategy is just. It's a deck of full of information and the creative becomes the thing that just happens afterwards, the wrapper. Uh, and it's Rule 101 in marketing. When you've got a strong insight, it gives the whole campaign a reason to exist. It gives you the story, the angle, detention. And I, I think the tension is something that the creative can actually build from. So keep searching for that true insight in every brief.

Speaker A: Yeah, for me, it gives, that gives the creative perspective is what. It gives the idea its edge. Um, if your insight is obvious, the creative will probably be obvious too. Um, you end up saying the same thing as everyone else because it's no different, just with a different rapper, a different visual treatment. Um, good insight gives you attention. It gives you something to creatively push against. Um, and that's where work really starts to get interesting and, and you can have a lot of fun with it.

Speaker C: Yeah. That's why we have to be careful not to confuse information, data trends with insight. Um, information might explain the market, helpful, but insight should change the work. That's the tension.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. Um, we talk a lot about how insight skills are one of the six skills to becoming the commercial marketer. And it's not about having all the data. It's about having, you know, what is the specific data that's sort of informing whatever it is that you're trying to achieve? Um, you know, do you find that organizations fall down at a certain point when it comes to uncovering or using insight? And then I guess as a second question, how do you sort of turn that insight into something that can help sort of shape that creative output?

Speaker C: I think a lot of organizations to that earlier point is that they do fall into the trap of stopping information. I think it's Our job to constantly interrogate and build value into that insight generation. Ah, process. You do need to translate information into something in something usable in the context of our world. Omni, um, you know, our audience, we are talking to chefs, we are talking to restaurant cafe owners who are facing the most unbelievable market pressures right now. You know, we all see the headlines with regards to restaurant closures. You get statements like, operators are under pressure, Buyers want value. Decision makers need confidence. And all those things are absolutely true. But that's not yet insight, and we need to be careful of that because that doesn't actually tell you what to do creatively. We need to dig deeper into that. We need to interrogate that actually have to keep asking ourselves as an agency, why. Why are they under pressure? What are they afraid of getting wrong? What would make them feel more confident in their decisions? What would make them trust one brand over another? And, you know, proof of that insight is, is often the winning formula, uh, for us as an agency.

Speaker A: Yeah. Because, you know, in our experience, the first answer is usually obvious one. Um, the more useful question is, what are they actually worried about? Is it margin? Is it waste? Customer complaints, protecting their reputation, looking like they've made the wrong decision? That's when sort of creative gets more interesting. Because you're not just saying, we understand your pressure. You're showing that you understand what pressure actually means to them, and that changes the headline, the tone, the visuals, and the whole story.

Speaker C: The insight needs to shape the story, the creative idea, even the channel activation plan, and onwardly, the sales conversation to have to have real value.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, I think it's interesting because sometimes I think you can almost like, start with, like, a conclusion or, like, where you're heading, and then you almost have to work backwards of like, oh, what is that drawing from? Why are we doing this? And then people kind of like, are looking to draw from a certain insight rather than starting with the actual insight.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, I find that a lot. And I find sometimes I'll be guilty of doing it myself because I already have, like, a perceived idea of where I want to go with something.

Speaker C: It does happen. I think we can all. We can all agree that does happen.

Speaker B: I guess it'd be great to know from sort of a strategy perspective, how do you ensure creative ideas sort of stay anchored in commercial objectives?

Speaker C: Honestly, it's getting around the table early, isn't it? I think it starts with getting the strategy and the creative around the same problem in the room, around the table with the coffee. Um, and before we get to ideas, we need to be clear on what, what are we trying to change, what do we want the audience to think or feel or do differently. And I think that's, that's what gives creative something then to push against. So that commercial objective shouldn't sit separately from the creative. It does need to be part of the conversation from the beginning.

Speaker A: Yeah, it does. It, it doesn't actually limit us, it sort of, it helps us a lot. Um, that objective gives us an idea to push against, tells you what we, the work has to do, um, not just what it has to say. If, you know, if the brief is vague and the objective is raise awareness or drive engagement, you can end up stuff, it looks fine. Um, but we don't really know what success looks like. You know, the sharper the problem, the sharper the creative can be.

Speaker C: Tailors all the time. Give me the freedom of a tight brief. Right. And if an idea, if an idea is beautiful, but it doesn't move the audience closer to the objective, I hate to say it's probably not the right idea. Um, but if an idea is commercially relevant and it stacks up and it's creatively distinctive, that's when you really get that value.

Speaker B: M. You know, to kind of turn the tables a bit. Um, from a creative perspective, how do you protect bold ideas while still delivering against those sort of measurable outcomes?

Speaker A: Yeah, um, I said goes back to what I said earlier about sort of protecting bold ideas by giving them a job to do. Um, make it anchored in insight and be objective. Um, then you're not just saying trust us, this is creative. You're saying this is the strongest way to solve the problem. Bold work can make people feel nervous. There's lots of stakeholders, there's lots of ass covering. So the idea has to feel brave but not reckless. And this is possible when, you know, has a clearly defined job.

Speaker C: Yeah, complete, I think defensibility. It goes back to that earlier point. Um, you have to show that thinking behind the work and help the client and take them on that journey. Give them the confidence to be able to drive that agenda, uh, internally as well.

Speaker A: You do? Yeah. If you can connect the idea back to the commercial outcome, you give a reason for people to support it. You know, shift in perception, creating demand, helping the brand stand out in a crowded category. If you can say yes to those, then you should fight for it. Um, but you also need to be honest. Not every bold idea is a good idea. Distinctiveness without discipline is just noise.

Speaker B: Um, I'd love to ask how closely do strategy and creative teams need to work together. Um, because from what it appears, it seems like you guys work quite closely together. And what does that collaboration kind of look like day to day? Um, for Omni?

Speaker C: Well, we're not perfect every day, are we, Andy? In all fairness, but I joke very closely. Um, the we, we all know that weaker model is in the instance that the strategy team write the deck, they hand it over and creative is expected to bring it to life. Um, and that can work at a really basic level, but it does, it rarely produces the strongest ideas, but it does happen though. So it is about early collaboration. Um, again, I said it earlier, locking in a room with coffee. Um, people are free to leave if they wish. But, uh, we talk about the brief at length, we kick it about, we chew on it, but we make sure before the ideas, um, come too fixed. What is the client really trying to change? What does the audience currently, uh, believe? What's sales struggling to get across when they have those conversations? And also, um, particularly with some of our client base, is what language is everyone else in the category using and how do we really cut through and understand for our clients? Where is that real tension that's going to make a difference?

Speaker A: Yeah, it definitely shouldn't feel like a relay race. The best work happens when we're sort of both solving the problem at the same time from the start. M in day to day, that means creatively pushing back on the strategy as well. Is the insight sharp enough? Is the proposition actually interesting? Are we saying something people actually care about or are we just arranging the expected messages in a nicer way?

Speaker C: Genuinely, that pushback process is healthy whether we like it or not, I have to say. Um, but in the moment when you're able to push back on each other as well, um, that's what keeps sharpening that idea to the, to the perfect pencil point.

Speaker A: It definitely works when we kind of bounce it backwards and forwards.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Be sort of super critical.

Speaker B: That, that sounds like a really good, um, you know, approach to things. Sort of poking holes as much as you can in the beginning, I think is so important. I'd, um, love to take it a step further from what we've been talking about. One of the biggest challenges in B2B is obviously measurement. How do you sort of prove that creativity is driving commercial impact?

Speaker C: That's a killer question for you. Yeah, I think the thing to accept is not all value shows up in the same place or at the same speed. We often measure what's easiest to see the clicks, the leads, the engagement. And those things are Important. But they don't tell you whether that work is building memory, whether it's creating uh, a uh, level of distinctiveness, whether it's giving that confidence or that preference for the brand. So the challenge is to connect the signals, of course. Um, and for us that's why something like Omni Connect becomes useful for our clients. Because as a system we, it doesn't magically prove every creative decision overnight. Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing? But because it does help us to see what people are engaging with, what's landing, um, and what content is actually having the impact, you know, what's creating that action. We're able to react to that behavior in real time, optimize what we do and drive them to a better quality sales conversation. And that's the value that we offer with Omni Connect. And that's how creativity does become something you can optimise, not just justify. You do need the systems that sit around it.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Like create from a creative point of view, measurement should not be there just to kill the idea, but it helps you understand how the idea is working. Sometimes the most useful question is to, did it make m people care enough to continue? Not just did it get a click?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I definitely agree with you guys and really well said. Um, I am going to be a little bit nosy because Anna, I know you referenced um, Omni Connect a few times. Can you share a little bit of context of what that is?

Speaker C: I love you to be nosy, that's great. Of course, I'd love to share. I think it starts, let me give you a bit of context um, because Omni Connect really came from two problems that we kept seeing in our market. So we work in the away from home market. So the audience we're trying to reach is, is fundamentally is hospitality operators. So that can be anything from big restaurant chains on the high street to independent pubs, cafes, bars, food service businesses. I mean at uh, stretch it even goes to kind of primary school caterers or healthcare caterers to give a sense of it.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: So it's broad. So the first challenge, should we say it's incredibly hard and fragmented audience to grip properly. So the first thing that Omni Connect does is give visibility to the data of the market, which is 400,000 outlets in the UK to give it again a little bit of shape. Um, so we have access to the whole data that allows us to build much sharper data enriched audiences through our targeted efforts. So we know where to focus and we know where to prioritize for Our clients. The second challenge is one that I think that many B2B marketers will recognize and will relate to. And it's agnostic to industry. But we find a lot of client data sits in different systems. It's often siloed different spreadsheets and not everyone knows where it is. And so sales and marketing quite commonly are working from different versions of the truth. So even when campaigns are generating engagement campaigns that our clients have invested in, that value of the investment can get lost before it ever turns into a meaningful sales conversation because that data isn't in a centralized place. And that's the frustration. That data just sits there, uh, unused on the shelf, getting dusty. And there's so much value that's lost between campaign investment and sales conversion. So this is why Omni Connect exists. It's our data driven CRM system and it's uh, an expertise managed service. So it's built specifically for the away from home market. It starts with enriched audience builds which supports better campaign deployment. It keeps a close eye on engagement tracking. It makes sure the right customer journeys are in place to turn that demand into action. Whether that's just whether that's nurturing a, uh, marketing qualified lead or whether actually it goes right through to the sales handoff for a warmer, more prioritized opportunity. Yeah, in simple terms it sounds a lot like CRM. And it is. But the difference is for Omni Connect, we bring the industry data, we bring the sector and marketing expertise that sits around it. So it's not just the tech and it's not just the agency service. It's both built around the realities of the away from home market that we serve at Omni.

Speaker A: Yeah, and creatively that's super helpful because you get a clearer sense of who you're speaking to and how they're responding better. Data doesn't replace the creative idea, but it can make m the creative work more relevant, more timely and more useful to sales.

Speaker B: Yeah, actually I think it's really interesting. We, we talk a lot about B2B marketing, almost to my annoyance about having a single source of truth, but like it's actually so important to have that alignment between teams. So I love that you've created something that sort of addresses, you know, different marketing challenges. Which I think leads me to my next question. You know, how do you sort of balance short term performance metrics with sort of that long term brand building? Because I know that could be a challenge.

Speaker C: I don't think you balance them by treating them as opposites to start with. Um, short term Activity helps you Dr. Action Now, long term brand building makes that action easier next time. The problem comes when you've got short term metrics become the only definition of success. And if you only optimize for what converts now and immediately, you can start removing the things that make the brand recognizable or memorable. You're engineering too much for the purpose of the format that sits in front of you. Um, and you may improve the short term number, but are you also weakening the brand's ability to create future demand is the question. So you need both sets of measures, I think. Kavita.

Speaker A: Yeah, from a creative side, the balance is all about consistency and freshness. You need enough consistency for people to recognise you, but enough freshness for them to keep paying attention. That's where a strong creative platform is useful. It uh, gives you a distinctive world to build from rather than starting again every time. If every campaign looks and sounds different, you may get activity but you don't get to build memory.

Speaker B: I find that um, I think especially in our industry right now where marketing is under such intense pressure to deliver, I feel like they sometimes are so far down sort of the brand building path that they're not willing to make those short term pivots when they need to. And then I think in addition to that, when they're under a lot of pressure, they could follow a different path which is just focusing on those quick wins. So I could imagine, um, it could be you kind of have to have both working in tandem together.

Speaker C: You do, you have to be quite disciplined around that. I think that's the key thing. It's, it's easy to get, to get lost in it, but you have to keep yourself grounded going back to that point of what is the action you are trying to create, what is the objective, what is the insight that you're trying to land. And again comes back full loop back to you can do that. Get to the commerciality. M just discipline.

Speaker B: Absolutely. One, um, more question and I do love ending on sort of a predictions question for some reason. I always find that in my podcast. Um, what do you think will separate the most successful B2B brands over the next sort of three to five years?

Speaker C: Well I guess back to the conversation of why we're here today is I think the most successful B2B brands are going to be the ones that aren't trading creativity for commerciality. Um, but they are keeping them closely connected. And uh, I also think we need to be smarter in how we invest in longer term. How do you invest in building that? Always on distinctiveness and memorability. How do you win that mental availability when it's needed most? Because the Day 1 shortlist is a thing. I was at a great agency summit a couple of weeks ago, um, and um, what I mean by the day one shortlist, um, is the buyer always starts their search with a small set set of brands and evidence shows that more than likely, kind of 90 plus, they will end up choosing from within that list. So you have to earn your place on that list before search begins. And let's face it, you know, especially with AI, we're up against more content than ever, thanks to, you know, Chat Claude, whatever your preferred model be. And um, so that content does need to be distinctive and it needs to be memorably useful. Again, that point around, kind of getting back to the objective that sits around it.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I agree. I think B2B is only going to get more noisy. Uh, more content, more AI generated sameness, dare I say it. So the human bit comes more valuable. Insight, emotion, storytelling, they all count. The best brands will understand their audience at a human level. Not just their job titles and sectors, but the pressures, fears and ambitions and decisions behind the role. Being visible just won't be enough. You'll need to be memorable, meaningful and clear about why someone should care before you ask them to buy.

Speaker C: The job is not just to make B2B content louder and produce more. I think in summary, it's about really getting under the bonnet and really making sure that those connection moments are relevant and you're making them matter more. And I think that'll be again to that point is that creates that distinctiveness that we need to keep striving for.

Speaker B: Awesome. Well, I think that's the perfect note to leave things on and I think that is about all the time we have for today. Uh, thanks so much both for sharing some of your expertise and if you'd like to find out more about Omni, I'm sure Andrew and Anna wouldn't mind you messaging them on LinkedIn. Thanks so much everyone. And I will see everyone again soon for another podcast. Thanks both.

Speaker C: It.