Why Self-Compassion Is Your Secret Advantage

Speaker A: In a world that tells us to hustle harder and keep on our game face, self criticism has become endemic for many people. But what if that voice in our heads is making us more anxious and less effective? Hi, I'm Chester Elton, and with me is my dear friend and co author, Adrian Gostick.

Speaker B: Well, thanks, Jess. You know, we've talked a lot on this podcast about the power of connection, compassion in the workplace. But often the hardest person to show compassion to is ourselves. Well, our guest today gets that better than most, and his story is one of burnout, breakthrough, and then learning to thrive by changing that inner narrative. As always, we hope that today's conversation will help you shift your own self talk and lower your anxiety at work and beyond.

Speaker A: And, and joining us today is our new friend, Matt Kovaches, the founder of Purposely Present Coaching and Consulting. Before becoming a certified coach and mindfulness speaker, Matt spent seven years in corporate banking at multinational firms, chasing external success while feeling empty on the inside. That led him on a journey of self healing and transformation. Today, Matt empowers students and emerging leaders across the country to live more authentically and, and enjoy their own company. He's also a comedy improviser and a podcast host. We're delighted to have you on the show, Matt. Thanks for finding the time. Go ahead and say something funny.

Speaker C: You know what, I wish I could, Chester. I'm not naturally funny. I always say that I am more naturally funny. I can't just think of things on the spot, but I appreciate it. It's great to be here. Uh, and those. Can't see, but Chester's got some awesome glasses on right now.

Speaker B: They are orange as. Yeah, you can't lose those glasses. You know, we're, you know, it's like they're going to glow in the dark. So, hey, Matt, tell us a little bit about your journey then. I mean, that's a, that's a great intro. Um, I met you when you. You hosted me on your podcast, and, uh, so tell us about your journey working in the corporate world. You know, you're saying you're burning out, you're just not feeling that ennui that we say it just wasn't the right thing. So tell us about how you maybe stop beating yourself up and then how you got to this journey where you're teaching others the same.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, I would like to start by saying that I am not perfect. And I still find myself occasionally being critical of myself. And I think the important thing is to understand that you're human. And that doesn't Mean like, don't shame yourself for shaming yourself, uh, because that's quite a vicious spiral that I fell victim to for a lot of my life. So I graduated from school, from University of Illinois, always felt that I wanted to go into corporate finance. Hindsight, I think that was kind of what was mapped out for me rather than maybe exploring who I truly was. And so landed what I thought was my dream job in corporate banking, leveraged lending. I'm super pumped, I'm super excited, super motivated, and pretty early on after that, realized that for me at least, my dream job wasn't so dreamy. Didn't like what I did, wasn't fulfilled. But unfortunately, like a lot of us, I think we know what we don't like in life. I knew everything wrong with my job, the people in it, my personal life, but I didn't know what I did like because I didn't have a clue in who I was. And so I stuck it out. I thought, that's just what you did. Make money during the week, you're unhappy while you do it, you live for the weekends, you self destruct, you get the Sunday scaries, you rinse and repeat over and over and over again. And I did that for the better part of six years. And eventually I hit kind of my version of rock bottom and was really struggling, not just professionally, but personally as well, and accepting myself. And I was constantly at war with myself, constantly very critical of myself. And so I did something I thought I would never do and I sought help, started going to therapy, uh, embarked on this journey of healing, self discovery, self acceptance that is, of course, everlasting. But for the first time in my life, I got clear on who I was. And ultimately what I wanted to do was help people with the same thing that I struggled with for so long, meaning my mental health. Feeling chronically stressed, unfulfilled, purposeless, directionless, and so stumbled upon. I was 28 at the time. I said, you know, what if not now, when I finally found something that I'm passionate about that gives me energy, like, I gotta run at this. I don't know how I'm gonna get there. And so, long story short, I left the corporate banking field a little over a year ago and I've been running, uh, my business purposely present ever since. And so today I'm a certified coach, mindfulness facilitator, uh, improviser, like Chester said. And I'm, um, a keynote speaker and really speak on things that I wish I had. When I was sitting in those student shoes, when I was sitting kind of early on in my corporate career. Um, not that I would have listened at the time, but things that I definitely wish I would have had nonetheless.

Speaker A: Yeah. Isn't it interesting that everybody has a journey, right? Everybody has their way forward. You know, you talk and you do a lot of work with college students, students with younger people, and often we think, you know. And your story is quite similar to this, right? Early on you were happy, go lucky, you were chasing your dream job. Everything was great. When does that self doubt start to creep in? And why does it creep in with so many people at a young age when you think that, hey, you've got everything in front of you, you've got everything to be excited about and yet you've got this negative self. Talk about that a little bit.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, I think for me personally, and then I'll share kind of more broadly, but for me personally, I achieved all the things that I was told were going to make me successful and happy. You know, I got the dream job. I was very privileged. Like I had been on all the vacations, I'd been on yachts. I became very materialistic. Like I drove the nice cars. I was in what I thought was supposed to be a good relationship. Like I did all these things that I was told were going to give me the happiness that I was seeking and I did them. And I'm like, well, what's going on here? You know, something's not right because I did all these things and I'm still very alone, empty, lonely, so that I kind of have to go through it. For myself personally, when I think about the younger generation and people I speak with more broadly, I think there's a number of reasons. Um, I think comparison is, is one of the, one of the hallmark reasons, especially for, you know, the, the younger generation, given they grew up with phones and there's just always access to seeing what other people are doing. And obviously people post what they want them to see. And so there's this constant comparison. Um, there's also, I think we learn from our caregivers or from. Maybe it was a boss or maybe it was from a professor. And oftentimes they can be quite hard on ourselves, quite hard on us. And when we're young and impressionable, we internalize that. We don't understand that people are all going through their own stuff. And so, well, that means there's something wrong with me. And if I've only achieved recognition, encouragement, love and support when I'm achieving something, when I'm doing, quote, unquote Good. Well, then we start to develop perfectionist tendencies. I feel like that I got to be perfect in order to receive love and the validation that I need. And so, um, that leads to some, you know, perfectionism tendencies growing up. And so there's a lot of different reason, I think, why doubt creeps in, but I think at the root cause of it for I would say the younger generation. But honestly, I think this work is agnostic more broadly for everybody is there's a fear of being judged, there's a fear of being rejected in some form, and there's a fear of not being enough. And so we'll go at great lengths to prove our worth. And oftentimes we think that in order to prove our worth, to achieve, to succeed, we've got to be really hard on ourselves. In order to push myself, I've got to be hard on myself. In reality, that often stresses us out and hinders our growth.

Speaker B: Well said, Matt. I mean that captures, I think a lot of the zeitgeist right now is uh, yeah, where people are, especially younger people coming in. I remember I was at one conference and I was about to speak after the principal of the year, uh, for the US and he worked in an inner city and stuff. And he says, yeah, I get. Kids mess up all the time. They come in, I tell them, look, if you mess up, look, I'm going to be tough with you, but I'm going to love you. And so he had his. But he says, you know who I worry about is the kids who never come into my office, he says, because they've never messed up and they're going to get out in the world and they're going to mess up and they're going to realize they can't be perfect. But they're. But they're trying so hard and we all mess up, as you say, you know, and so then we get. Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker C: No, I was going to say it's one of. You know, this is a lot of what Kristen Neff and her work talks about on self compassion.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: But this idea of common humanity, which is recognizing that, you know, to fail to make a mistake, it doesn't mean there's anything that needs to be fixed. Doesn't mean you're broken. It means you're human like everyone else. And I just remember the first time that I really embodied that and truly like sunk into the. To what that felt like. It was transformative because I always felt so alone, like no one would care. No one understand. And I get it. You Know, when there's people that are struggling, it always feels like, well, it's just me. They wouldn't understand. My situation is unique. But there are people that are going through entirely the same thing. And at least for me, that was very, that was very liberating.

Speaker B: Okay, so now they come to the workplace and um, you say, look, self compassion again is going to be sort of key in this, but it's not about letting yourself off the hook. It's rather more showing up fully is what you've said on your podcast. So, um, but, but a lot of people who are listening are going, look, if I stop being hard on myself, I'm going to lose my edge. So, so what do you say when somebody fears self compassion means losing their drive?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, it's one of the things I hear probably most often from leaders, from students, from anyone when I talk about compassion. But I think it's very important to differentiate compassion from permission. Like compassion is not about indulgence. It's not about being more complacent, lowering our standards, avoiding responsibility. It's quite the opposite. I mean, there's been studies that have shown that those that are more compassionate with themselves have been proven to be more resilient. There's been studies that have shown that those that have compassion for themselves have been proven to take more risk. And so while I think fear and criticism can be motivating in the short term, it is kind of dirty fuel, if you will, and it might get you going for a little bit, but inevitably we burn out. It's exhausting. Uh, so I always think about compassion as, uh, the. It comes from the place of love and criticism. Being self critical comes from the place of fear. And there's. The desire is different. So because I only know this to be true because I experienced this myself. So when we, when we are often critical of ourselves and beating ourselves up, it's driven by fear. And fear produces anxiety. It makes us feel anxious, insecure, jittery. It activates our amygdala. It floods our body with stress hormones and cortisol. And the desire when we're operating from a place of fear and criticism is to not feel inferior. You know, I don't feel like I'm enough as I am. And if I just get that promotion or I just get that raise, whatever it might be, then then I'll feel like enough. And the desire, when we operate place from a place of loving compassion, the desire is not to feel inferior, but the desire is to be superior. Meaning we already recognize our Birthright as human beings to be worthy of love and acceptance. And so, because I love myself, of course I want to be driven and ambitious and achieve my goals and take risks, because I know on the other side of those risks, we might fail, but on the other side of those is someone that's got their own back, is someone that's going to support themselves and recognizes that again. Uh, some of those things we just discussed. So to sum that all up, to summarize, I would say that I'm not going to sit here and say that shame and fear hasn't been motivating, but I'm more compassionate than I've been in my life, and I'm more driven. I can say it's more sustainable. And beyond all of that, Chester and Adrian, it's just more fun. Like, it's just more enjoyable. We get one life. Like, at the end of the day, like, this is not a rehearsal. This is the real deal. I don't know about you guys. I want to enjoy my time here as much as possible. Connecting with other people and. And I promise those listening that compassion gives you the best opportunity to do that.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Although I do have a friend that believes in reincarnation. So that one life thing is always

Speaker C: depending on what you believe on comes after this. I know. It won't look like this.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: At any rate. Okay, brilliant. Love that. You know, compassion actually empowers you to take more risks. I think that's really a great message. Um, so let's flip the script a little bit. You're a mindfulness facilitator. Okay, so help us get a little mindful right now. Do our deep breathing, you know, go to the breath, as they say. Um, what are a couple of, uh, practical strategies for bringing more of that into the workplace, Especially for people who say, look, I just haven't got time for this. You know, often people say, oh, yeah, I meditate for three hours a day. Go. Look, I have tough time staying asleep for three hours a day, let alone, you know, meditating. I don't have time. I need a mindfulness practice. You're the expert. Help us out.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I'll share a very short story. I was catching up with someone at my old firm, and she had mentioned that last year was the first year at their conference that they brought in someone to do some mindfulness work. And she was super excited because, you know, she's. She believes in the work and. But in the corporate banking field, I'll tell you what, most bankers are not concerned about whether they are present. Uh, they are living in a state of constant stress and most don't even realize it. But beyond that, she said that the people that did a ton loved it. But most of the conference attendees to use that time to go and get on calls like that was their time to step away. And uh, it's ironic because the people that say I don't have time for this are also probably the same people that could benefit from it the most. And in terms of like strategies, it doesn't have to be. I think people hear mindfulness and it's like, well, that means I'm sitting cross legged in a dark room with the candle lit Buddhist music playing, playing. And you can do that. I've done it. It's great. But that's just one form of mindfulness. In fact, that's just one form of meditation. And so it could be something as just standing up from m your office and just stepping outside and taking five minutes to go on a walk and doing it without your work phone, meaning you're actually trying to be present, you know, actually listening to the birds chirp.

Speaker A: Let me get this straight. Go for a walk without your phone. Come on.

Speaker B: What? What? Yeah, I'd be paying that. Where's my phone?

Speaker A: You know, I, I'm, I'm kidding you. But it is interesting, isn't it? Uh, where we've had the occasion where we forgot our phone. Yeah. And we went for a walk and we didn't know what to do with ourselves. You know, where's my podcast? Where's my thing that those moments of peace really are impactful, even just for five minutes, aren't they?

Speaker C: It's really just training your mind. I mean, that's the way I like to talk to leaders, emerging leaders, students about it because I understand that the mindfulness woo and all that type of things. But when I frame it as just like you would train your physical body to exercise, you train your mind to focus. And that is what mindfulness is. Especially in today's day and age when we have so many things vying for our attention. Our attention is like the most valuable resource for advertisers and things of that nature. And so taking a few minutes to just unplug it could be going for a walk. I always think one of the best things a workplace could do is encourage a bring your dog to work or having kind of an office dog. I'd love to see the research behind it if anyone's done any research. But having anything that is going to Bring your body and your mind to the same place, and you got a dog right there for those that can't see. And what a great way. I mean, I have a dog as well. And if I'm working away and starting to feel myself getting stressed, I mean, I'll just give my dog a pat, you know, for two minutes, pet her. And she loves it. And it brings me back to just a little bit more presence, so that instead of reacting to whatever's going on or a bad email I got, I can create just a little bit of space to create some awareness, you know?

Speaker A: And I think on the other side of that, if you feel like you're getting too caught up in yourself and you're feeling too good about yourself, go spend time with a cat. You know, cats will bring you down a notch, especially trying to tell them

Speaker B: m. To do something. Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker C: You know, there's, uh. Actually I went through this little course. It's called on, um, Positive Intelligence. And he didn't frame it as such, and maybe he did this for a reason, but he didn't frame it as mindfulness throughout the day. But he called them PQ reps, Positive Intelligence instead of eqpq. But all it was is throughout the day, you'd get a little reminder maybe every couple hours to do some sort of. Really what it was is a mindfulness practice. So it could be just rubbing your fingers together and just paying attention to what that feels like. And all that's doing is just creating a moment of presence. And so, yeah, you can go meditate three hours per day if that's your jam, and that's what works for you. But sometimes I meditate for five minutes a day. Sometimes it's 35. But I make sure to get it in because there are times when I'm super stressed, and that's when I need that practice more than anything.

Speaker B: And, uh, those, those grounding practices are, uh, terrific, Matt, that you're, you're bringing up there. Whether it's. Yeah, like you say, if you got five minutes, walk outside, breathe, leave the phone. Uh, it could be, you know, rubbing the, you know, your sleeve. It could be, you know, just kind of bringing yourself to the present is the idea. I love that. I think people are going to be real, uh, really interested in learning more about you. Where would you send them? What's the, uh, best place to find you?

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, Super Easy website www.mattcavajes.com super simple. But you can find all my information there. I'm a Keynote speaker. I speak about a lot of this stuff, stress management, mindfulness, both to university students as well as organizations, particularly with a focus kind of on the younger generation. Uh, consider, I still like to consider myself part of the younger generation. People call me a Cusper. I got called a Cusper because I never know what to call myself because I'm right on the border of a Gen Z millennial. So. But someone called me a Cusper and that stuck. So I'm a Cusper, uh, so I tend to relate to that, that group as well. Uh, and I'm also a coach. So I coach, uh, students, whether individual, uh, and also work with organizations both at an individual level or sometimes group coaching as well.

Speaker B: Awesome. I'm probably a Cusper too, but the older Cusper. Yeah, much, much older. So, hey, good. Okay, give us the last thoughts here. We've, we're boy, our time has flown by. We've learned lots of love learning from you. Ah. As you look at people, you know, and probably a lot of people listening right now, they're struggling when maybe when it comes to their self worth, their identity, give us some last thoughts that make, help us feel like we are enough in a world that's demanding more and more of us.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean one, I would say it's a never ending journey. So I mean, I do this work for a living. Like I said, I practice mindfulness every single day. I work out, I take care of myself. And yet, you know, there are still days where I'm finding myself critical. And I think the biggest thing is just being aware. If you can just bring more awareness to different patterns, behaviors, thoughts, emotions, you've already done half the battle. Because the more that we can create just some awareness so that we now have more choice, more, more ability to respond to situations rather than just react instinctively, I think the better off we'll be because I think at the end of the day we all know what we need to do in life. Like students, uh, will ask me questions while I'm up there and I usually just say, what do you think? And they have an answer. And I'm like, well, you just answered the question. You don't need me. You just answered the question yourself. And so I think we all know what we need to do, but it can feel overwhelming. And so to take just baby steps, set uh, realistic goals, any progress is good progress. And then I think it's really important. Easier said than done. But the earlier on you are in your career to detach your productivity from your worth, meaning that they are two separate things. Your worth as a human being is not reliant on how many promotions you get, on the number of positive feedback forms that you get your worth as a human being is tied to. I mean, you're here for a reason. You showed up here. You didn't choose to be here. You showed up here. So you're here for a reason. Um, and I get it. I struggle with that same thing. But I would tell people that you are enough as you are. Uh, be a little bit more kind to yourself, because the more kind you are to yourself, the more kind you are to other people. And we all want to be nice to other people. We all want to be kind to other people. But what I realized, at least from my experience in my life, is, boy, that was exhausting. It was so exhausting to try to be nice and kind to other people. But what I realized, it's because I was going to war with myself every single day, and I was exhausted. That is exhausting. But when you're kinder to yourself, when you offer and extend more love to ourselves, it becomes effortless to give them love to other people. And so that's kind of what I would say.

Speaker A: That's great. Well, his name is Matt Kovachis, and he's got a podcast. And, uh, find him@mattcovaches.com. what's the name of the podcast man?

Speaker C: Well, I've got two. I got Men in the arena, which was on Mental Health, which I started kind of right after my journey of. So I came out. So I struggled with my sexuality, and, uh, I came out, and my life kind of changed overnight. Now, it was a gradual process, but, uh, the other one is called beyond the Office, the one I had Adrian on. Chester, I'd love to have you on as well.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker C: Uh, which is all about creating a more authentic, emotionally intelligent culture in a place where people actually want to come to work.

Speaker A: That's great. Yeah, you know, we're caught up in that. I'll be happy when. Right. I'll be happy when I get to a promotion. Uh, be happy now. Matt, it's been a delight to have you on the podcast. Thanks for finding the time.

Speaker C: Thank you both.

Speaker A: What an interesting guy. You know, uh, mindfulness coach. He went through the experience. Podcaster, comedian. You know, he found humor in his pain, as often, you know, comedians do. But I'm really interested, Adrian. He shared a lot of stuff. I got a page and a half notes. What?

Speaker B: Gosh, what stuck with you that excites so much? Uh, first off, his story. I mean, how many of us have been through that where he's saying, lucky's unhappy, but that's what work is supposed to be. You go, you're miserable all week. You rinse and repeat, you start over. Um, and why. How many of us are really reflective and you and I went through this process when we were working for a big corporation. And remember, we sat in a room, we wrote down what we really, you know, what we're passionate about, and none of them were things we were doing. Even though we had, you know, good salaries and lots of mastery, autonomy and all the things that, uh, Dan Pink writes about in Drive, we had those things, but we were miserable because we didn't have the things that we needed in our lives. So. So, yeah, get over the self talk. Comparison. Exactly. Figure out what it is that's gonna, you know, give you joy in your life. I love that.

Speaker A: Yeah. Find your joy. He had all the stuff, you know, and, uh, to your point, I love the expression in, uh, comparison is the thief of joy, you know, because there's always gonna be somebody's got more, you know, it's more talented, has got a nicer car or whatever. Uh, I thought it was really interesting when he pointed out, he said, look, being more compassionate and kind to yourself doesn't mean you lose your edge. If anything, it makes you more bold. It makes you, you know, able to take bigger risks, to handle failure better. And I thought that was a really big takeaway. Uh, because, you know, I was, you

Speaker B: know, I was born in England and an Englishman's only goal is to get to their grave without embarrassing themselves.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: That is our whole goal in life. So. Yeah, it's a different way of thinking.

Speaker A: Yeah. So different from the Irish, which is never, uh, pass a bar. Yeah. But, um, no, the, the idea too, that, you know, the positive talk comes from a place of love, the negative talk comes from a place of fear. Um, you know, and that. And that. Just remember that you are always of worth, you know, from a spiritual standpoint, you know, that's very much a tenant, you know, that you're of a divine nature and you're of value. Interesting that he would, he would come up with that as well.

Speaker B: Detach your productivity from your worth. I love that.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Um, yeah.

Speaker A: And then just simple things, you know. Mine was a five minute walk. Rub your fingers, stand up, walk around, leave your phone behind. Uh, that is going to be one of the toughest things for most people listening because we're just so tethered to our phones I don't know what's going on with my phone right now, but you know, from my Apple watch, you know, when you hit find your phone, it doesn't beep. I can tell you how much stress that has brought you my phone. But those breaks are just really needed. And to his point, it doesn't have to be a three hour meditation session.

Speaker B: Right? Exactly. I mean, it can be. You know, grounding can be as easy to push your feet into the ground. Well, it's hard to be somewhere else when you're doing that, you know, because it takes some concentration, you know, and things like that. We hear people saying, like, I'm about to go into a big sales call. I do these little. I tap my fingers, I rub my, my shirt sleeve, whatever it is, just to bring myself present and quit spiraling, you know, to the past. Oh, I've messed up these calls before. Or to the future. Uh, they're going to ask questions I don't know the answers to. No, bring yourself present. You'll do just fine. So.

Speaker A: And I'll tell you, if there's one guy that keeps us from spiraling, you know, when it comes to our podcast, I. I mean, there's one name that comes to mind for me. It's Brent Klein.

Speaker B: There's nobody better in the business. Brent Klein. Brilliant. Brilliant. And, uh, to Christy Lawrence, who helps us find amazing guests. We appreciate her and all of you who listened in. Hey, if you like this podcast, share it, download it. We'd also love you to visit TheCultureWorks.com for free resources to help you and your team thrive.

Speaker A: Yeah, and we love speaking to audiences, whether it's virtual, in person, small groups, big groups, uh, we do it all over the world. We talk about culture, teamwork, resilience, gratitude. Give us a call. We'd love to talk to you or your organization. And as always, Adrian, you get the final word.

Speaker B: Hey, thanks everybody for joining us. Another great kind of self reflection here on, uh, are we being kind to ourselves? So until next time, we wish you the best of mental health.