When Culture Is the Strategy: Lessons from Elite Leaders in HR

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome, everyone. This is a podcast about leadership. I'm your host, Jonathan Kirschner, and it is a fantastic day to have three, three of my favorite people on this podcast here today. Um, there are some common denominators. Um, clearly hr, Chro, that's going to be a big topic for us. But what we really want to get at, at the core, is leadership. Because leadership, as we all know, is one of the most consequential variables. It might be the most important thing when it comes to shaping a better future. Um, and what an incredible position the chro sits in in order to influence, um, and in order to, um, make things happen from a leadership standpoint. So we're really privileged to have Maxine, Bill and John Tuohy here with us. Maxine Carrington, the chief people officer at Northwell Health, little small hospital system of 106,000 employees. Um, it is actually New York state's largest healthcare provider. Um, and Maxine, you've been with Northwell since 2008.

Speaker C: That's right.

Speaker B: So that's a little bit of time and covering, uh, a lot of ground. Covid. Um, AI transformation, just tremendous amounts of change. Um, Maxine is incredibly well regarded and known within the industry and recognized by modern healthcare as one of the top 25 women in healthcare. So thank you for joining us. Um, I'm considering all things going on in 106,000 employee organization. I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us today on this podcast. Thank you. Um, and thank you for all the incredible work that Northwell does. We have Bill Strahan, um, I don't know, four miles away from where I'm sitting right now, um, in Center City Philadelphia at Comcast headquarters. Bill's the EVP of human resources for Comcast connectivity and platform businesses. Um, oh, my goodness. I mean, Comcast, what an. I mean, our, Our. This podcast is happening because of Comcast. All of our Internet on this call is. Is Comcast, uh, supported? And thanks, uh, for the business, John.

Speaker C: Of course.

Speaker B: But I mean, talk about complexity and, and moving from sort of, you know, kind of a traditional, should I say traditional cable company. In some ways, you guys were the, you know, our cable. Um, but, but from that to, uh, a technology powerhouse, I should say global technology powerhouse. Um, so it'll be really, really interesting to hear from you, Bill, what that journey has been like. Um, and then, uh, we have John Tuohy, um, who is the managing partner at Trilogy Talent Advisors. And John's been, um, doing incredible work for the last 25 years. Placing CHROs and C suite leaders,

Speaker A: um,

Speaker B: for some of the biggest organizations, um, around the world. And um, really, really looking forward to hearing his perspective. Not just uh, you know, hearing as a chro in the chro seat, but what is it like to place chros and what are CEOs and boards asking for right now? What kinds of trends are you seeing, John? So we've got Bill, Maxine, John. This is like an all star crew basically. Um, and uh, I delighted uh, to dig in. So I want to start with just with you, Maxine and Bill, um, between both of you, responsible for over 150,000 employees in your respective organizations. Um, when you wake up on a Monday morning right now in 2026, um, what's the first thing on your mind?

Speaker C: Uh, so you know, I'm chuckling to myself. First of all Jonathan, thank you certainly for the opportunity but also for the impact you and your organization uh, have had on Northwell, right, all of your coaches helping our leaders to grow and uh, evolve and uh, deliver greater value and impact. So thank you. Um, so I chuckled to myself because the first thing is, you know, thank God I'm breathing is the first thing that comes to mind these days, you know, uh, when you wake up. Um, but the other thing I've sort of trained myself to think about certainly is, you know, what's on the agenda for today, uh, who do I need to connect with. But then there's also this concept of seeing around corners, you know, um, what might I not be thinking of that I've gotta, you know, make sure I'm thinking of what might I not anticipate today that I may want to think about and be ready for. Um, and so sort of training myself. And that's what a Monday morning looks like today. And I don't get the Monday scaries by the way. I get really excited actually, ah, for the week and what we get to do. So grateful, um, to be in that place as well.

Speaker B: I love that, I love that, um, this metaphor of looking what's around the corner and it's so easy. I know my Monday morning if I just sort of default to opening um, up the sort of fire hose of my email and slack, you know, it becomes essentially just this like reactive catching up. Um, and you can easily, you know, just spend the entire day um, sort of reacting and um, trying to play catch up. But uh, this notion of sort of seeing beyond the corner, that's like the super skill I think leaders need to possess. It's how do you live in the now but also be proactive and sort of see what's around the corner, what's ahead. I appreciate that. Also, Maxine, interestingly enough, somebody asked me earlier this morning, he's like, what advice would you give a leader today? I'm like, breathe. I'm like, um, you know, you mentioned, like, breathing and, and, um. But. But, yeah, with the, the. The sort of torrent of change that we're all experiencing, like breathing being. Being pretty important, intentional breathing, that is. Um, so, wow, thank you. I'd love to be with you on a Monday morning. That sounds so peaceful.

Speaker C: You're welcome. Um, I'm nicknamed Out of here Bill.

Speaker B: How about you? What's a Monday morning look like?

Speaker D: Yeah, not to take the question too specifically, um, but I bet Maxine has the same experience that I do, that we both run operations that are 24 7, 365. So sometimes Monday is the day after you worked on Sunday. Um, um, if there's a flu epidemic in upstate New York, I bet Maxine's watching the numbers and you don't always get to take the time off. So the first thing about Monday, is it the first day after Friday, or is it the first day after Monday? Uh, and I don't say that sarcastically as much as, um, the rhythm of time. And it's going to really go to my substantive answer, but it's different depending upon the business you're in, too. And when you are in a service business where important things depend on you, like, oh, by the way, saving your life through remarkable, caring healthcare, um, the rhythm's a little different. Um, for me, though, to get to what the question's really trying to get to, I think, um, for me, it's about the tensions. Meaning that the tensions between. How do I both go faster and then have the focus to think about the particulars that I need to be on? How do we innovate and yet keep the stability for people to have the rocks and anchors and pillars that they need? And it's not about how do you get any particular thing done or necessarily what's like, the item priority, uh, for the week. It's about constantly managing the dynamism of trying to find the balance again. But I'm gonna say the tensions. I like that word. Uh, cause it's almost like a gravitational system of the planets going around sun. You're just trying to make sure things stay in orbit, uh, at least for me, on a kind of those moments, like a Monday morning when you're reflecting, uh, rather than the to do list or something. Like that. Or, hey, let me remind myself of the values it's living in, the dynamism of all the various forces that are simultaneously at play.

Speaker B: I love that metaphor. And I'm thinking. I mean, the way you painted this picture of, like, ah, almost, um, you know, an. An orbiting system of planets. And you've got, you know, that the interesting thing, though, is, like, what happens when you get a little, you know, sort of like curveball, you know, that throws off the balance. Right. So, you know, that's a, um.

Speaker D: Um.

Speaker B: But. But this dynamism, it's interesting to think about the, like, the paradoxical nature of what we do. You know, like, do we need to solve for now or the future? Um, short term, long term. Uh, it is this constant. You can think of it as a juggling act. Um, but, um. But it. But. But even more eloquently, like, to your point, Bill, about dynamism, um, like, you're in that. And then it's about how do you shift and constantly prioritize and reprioritize? That's really. Um. So, okay, that. That brings me into, like, the. The seat. I'm, you know, I'm kind of like, empathizing and. And the seat's getting hot. You know, the Chro. Seats getting hot. Um, this is a question really for. For the. For the three of you. And, um, you know, I'm kind of fascinated. So Ayer's been, you know, um, in doing leadership advisory for, um, 17 years now. And, um, you know, I remember the first time I met a Chro, and I, you know, very blessed to have many, many great relationships and a network of senior leaders and many chros. And it feels like the role has shifted a little bit. Um, and, um, you know, in some ways, you know, there's nothing new under the sun. In other ways, it feels like this role has changed. And, um, in some ways, even if you look at just the last three to five years, it feels like the role has changed more in that period of time, say, Covid to now. How has the role shifted? How has it changed? Um, and to the extent that you have a crystal ball, um, where is it going from here? Right.

Speaker D: I guess, first of all, it's a great question, and I do think your instincts are correct. Um, for me, I think the role has continued to grow and evolve by kind of broadening and deepening. Um, I think if you go five, seven years ago, it was, how does the company manage the competition for labor? Both attraction, uh, from the outside, retention from the inside, and then kind of running the systems that made you uh, an effective competitor for labor. And I think now effective chros are by definition multifunctional players and are more than ever are C suite executives first. And thinking about those particular levers and in competing for labor, a growingly distant second. Um, so being part of the decision, um, decisions about if we're going to go and invest in this business, are we going to be able to deliver the talent if we have these functions and tasks and value creation opportunities, um, how are we going to fulfill them? Are we going to go sort of external contractors that we're sort of managing? Are we going to uh, should we just shop this out? Should we invest in um, automation and machines? Should we uh, uh, invest in um, employees to do those work? Thinking more long term, you're balancing um, a lot of different functions simultaneously. It's finance, it's brand in general, it's sort of operations purely, uh, and you're bringing and delivering expertise around the people side of it. But you don't get to escape from looking at the business problem from every angle along with the cfo, the cmo, the CTO and uh, everybody else.

Speaker B: So the evolution then if we think about the from to, it's like from a place of say, you know, we, we need more talent, we need to attract the right talent, we need to retain that talent. Um, and it's almost like your job, this is in, in the sort of the from state is, is to sort of uh, be a steward of talent. Right. All things talent. Um, and, but, but what I'm hearing from you is that like increasingly, um, if not fully like you're, you're in the business decisions that themselves, right. In terms of the strategy, um, you know, if we're going to go into an M and A or if we're going to do a pivot here, you know, whereas maybe 10 years ago CHRO is like no, no, I need, just need you to keep figuring out how do we get the right amount of people and retain those people. You're being brought into those meetings. Does that, yeah. Capture.

Speaker D: I think that's a good summation.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I, I do think you're, you know, you're thinking still about competitive advantage, but certainly more broadly, you know, not just within the context of, you know, the war for talent only. And then in the context of the war for talent, you know, you think about growth. Uh, so healthcare has lagged, you know, lagged for a period of time. You know, that was the narrative. Uh, and we had to go out and Learn really from all industries, uh, a lot of for profit. Right. And start to bring some of that thinking and that speed and that agility and that, you know, those ways in. So now we continue to grow, we grow rapidly. And so you're thinking or design, you're thinking operating model, what needs to shift. But then you're thinking still competitive advantage and brand. And now healthcare is getting this wrap of big healthcare. Affordability is a big issue. So how do we buffer that? How do we counter that? And everyone's gotta be thinking about it. You know, I think one shift for us is, um, there's a greater focus on the external in HR today. And I've been with this organization since 2008. There wasn't a whole lot of pressure on us years ago to be engaging with public officials, elected officials. Now I think there isn't a month that goes by when I'm not in front of a senator or a representative or um, trying to talk about workforce, trying to talk about the brand, trying to talk about the challenges we foresee, how we're thinking about AI, uh, we're educating them so that they become more informed, you know. So I think that's a, ah, that's been a, ah, definitely evolving expectation.

Speaker B: That's really. So Maxine, is that like. I'm trying to think about like, what's the, the um, the underlying like, reason, you know, why this.

Speaker C: Trying to influence, policy.

Speaker B: Influencing. Yeah, right, yeah.

Speaker C: And just the greater expectation that uh, you will have a key role in that, um, as we think about cost, as we think about, uh, perspectives on healthcare, uh, and reputation and what we do, um, versus this narrative of uh, big, bad, unaffordable, not transparent, can't be trusted healthcare. Uh, so, uh, that's been definitely an interesting shift and I would say that more broadly beyond the chro role, but certainly HR is definitely in the room each and every time.

Speaker B: That's fascinating, John. You know, you're sitting at a unique vantage point here because you're placing chros, you know, for a living, um, and CEOs and CFOs. But, um, I am curious, like, what are boards and CEOs asking for, like right now that maybe they weren't asking for five, seven years ago. You know, are you seeing any difference?

Speaker A: Yes. And you know, I would characterize it more as a yes and question versus a from to question. Because everything that Maxine and Bill said that they needed to do incredibly well six years ago, they're still expected to do incredibly well today. Right. So those are.

Speaker B: So it's not like that went away. That's just become more like table stakes.

Speaker A: What happened was it became the table stakes. Right. So that's the how you gain credibility to have the broader strategic conversation. So, you know, what I would say is, you know that what I've seen, and I think Bill and Maxine have both, uh, either addressed this directly or implicitly, uh, is that the HR lead has moved from being a functional leader to a business leader who happens to be very, very strong on the people stuff. Right. So that is kind of their, the competency that they bring to the business conversation. But really it is the business conversation that CEOs and boards are expecting that their heads of HR will be literate in and be able to participate as an equal with the cfo, with the head of sales, with the chief operating officer and whomever else might be in the room. So it's a little bit more from how do we keep workforce engaged, how do we optimize labor, uh, uh, to how is our workforce strategy helping us from a competitive advantage standpoint? And that is a much broader conversation, is a conversation that requires all of the things that made Maxine and Bill great HR leaders in 2019.

Speaker C: Please.

Speaker A: Plus an ability to see around the corners that Maxine had, uh, talked about, uh, uh, as one of her Monday morning goals for the week and also, uh, had the capability to really drive execution. So, um, there was always a knock on HR, let's say in the early 2000s, maybe into the teens, that it was very hard to measure what HR's impact was in an organization. Now it's probably seen as one of the most measurable functions that you can find within an organization. But, um, Bill and Maxine have to be very literate in their ability to show tangible impact. So I think it's around, uh, moving from functional to business, uh, uh, leadership. And also an understanding that the Chro is probably one of the few enterprise leaders that a CEO has on their team. Everybody else has something else they're probably responsible for. You have a business unit leader, you have a regional leader. Um, I would say the cfo, the CEO and the Chro are really the three executives that are looking at the entire enterprise on a constant basis. And that's really, I think, been a change and it has opened up kind of what we look for in HR. Ah, leaders versus what we may have looked for 10 years ago.

Speaker B: And John, presumably Trilogy Talent Partners, the Trilogy is Chro, cfo, CEO. Based on the comments, you.

Speaker A: Yeah, Aside from the fact that when we started the firm all the good names were taken. That certainly, uh, is a big part of, uh, why we decided to name the business trilogy.

Speaker B: I love it. I mean, all roles are incredibly valuable, but there is this sort of disproportionate value in here because of the enterprise leadership of those three roles. Um, first, uh, you know, you said this term. Yes.

Speaker D: And so people who are training to be actors and spend time. And a lot of them do. In improv, you're told that when the person on the other side of the exchange says something, the worst thing to say in improv is no. You have to say yes, and. And you build the seed from there. So it's a. It's a technique within improv, and I

Speaker C: think it can be helpful in negotiation.

Speaker D: Exactly. Part of it is, you know, a lot of what we're doing now. You know, you talked about, um, Covid. You talk about your political environment, you talk about regulatory change, talk about AI. A lot of what we're doing is improv. How many times during COVID did we say we're sort of making it up as we go along? Because we have never done this before. The analogy between improv acting and the way sometimes you're managing, um, is pretty similar. The Venn diagrams kind of cross over. And I think that's one of the reasons that this. Yes. And, uh, concept, which I think is more like decades old, has kind of come in. So I'm going to put out a plug for an NBC show. If anybody remembers 30 Rock.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And remembers, you, uh, know, the characters there, Liz Lemon, talking about, uh, improv. That's where I first heard it. Subscribe to Peacock. Watch it. You'll love it.

Speaker B: Well, I. I mean, you're going exactly where. Where, um, my head's going, Bill, which is. It could very well be like sort of a timeless concept. And. And, uh, and certainly sounds like it's a. A very important concept in improv. But, um, I'm seeing a. A higher frequency of that verbiage.

Speaker A: People are.

Speaker B: Yes. Ending me all over the place. And I think it's a function of exactly what you just said. Like, change is happening, um, in. In bigger, more unpredictable ways in an accelerated pace. I would even argue, um, as I've made this argument, that. That we're in a. In a context of constant change.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: It's not even that we're in this higher frequency or an accelerating change. It's like constant change. And when that happens, it forces more sort of paradoxes. Um, More. Yes. Ands. Like, are you focused on top line or bottom line?

Speaker C: Both.

Speaker B: You know, are you focused on the short term or the near term?

Speaker C: Both.

Speaker B: You know, is it execution or strategy?

Speaker C: Both.

Speaker B: Yes and right. So it's just interesting to think about that concept as a function of the dynamic times we're in right now. Um, but something that really, um, has been on my mind. It's interesting. I'm an executive coach, a leadership advisor. I like to do this podcast and get, uh, out and speak a little bit. Um, but I'm also CEO, right. So I'm a leader myself. And I'll tell you one of the most humbling, um, variables. You know, we have 45 skills in the air leadership framework. One of the most humbling skills is culture building. Because you think, you know, you roll out a culture initiative and, you know, you get up and. And do something that's, like, very powerful for the culture. You. You crystallize and redefine the culture, and you're like, I did it.

Speaker C: I did it.

Speaker B: Right. Um, and there's this sort of tendency just like most things, like, you do it and then you move on. Right. Like I said, it's. And forget it kind of thing. But that is not how culture works. Um, it's that 247 invisible thing. And that also is, um, harder. I think. I experienced this as a leader. And I'm curious, your experience when everything is moving so fast and there's so much change or constant change, um, culture, which is many ways the thing that helps people stay grounded, um, and orients people, um, I feel like that can be, um, at risk. And, um, I'm just curious, from your perspective, a, any sort of thoughts on, on the, you know, the importance of culture, on your level of prioritization and, and b, um, what. What are you doing, um, to, um, enhance and build culture when we're in a time where everything is changing?

Speaker C: Yeah. You know, we. So at Northwell. You will never have any leader at Northwell on a stage without them referencing culture. It is in our DNA to talk about culture. It's funny, if you can see behind, there's a, ah, little sign there. And it's our values. At Northwell, we call them the trulies. Uh, so it's everything from compassionate, truly compassionate to truly innovative to truly inclusive, truly together, et cetera. Um, and we try to give that language to everyone when they have to describe culture, to anchor it back to those values. If you need a simple way to not get overwhelmed and describe our culture, we could talk about the unofficial stuff too. Right. In each, um, entity. But by and large it's those values because compassion is the thing that we sell in healthcare. We have to be compassionate, but we also have to innovate. We have to make sure we're providing cutting edge care, delivering, uh, the most competent expert care that we can to save lives, to improve quality of life. So we have to be innovating. And so I think about the context Bill described earlier too, because you're trying to direct culture, but then you're also sensing it at the same time to make sure that all the artifacts, all the signals you're sending are for the time. Right? Because we talked, uh, you know, I mentioned the broader environment recently. So politics, you see the shift there, right? We're talking about the environment, we're talking about the economy, all of those things Bill mentioned. Tension can stress culture because it's people who, uh, express your culture, your decisions and your processes and policies express culture. But you have to, at the same time, you're trying to drive it, retain it, fight for it. You have to be sensing, is it still relevant, is it still going to help us achieve our goals, is it going to give us competitive advantage? So we're always doing both at the same time, and who we recruit for, what we celebrate, what we reinforce, what we communicate, the signals we send, but at the same time sensing who is the workforce today, what are their unique challenges, what do patients want, what do communities want? And do we need to shift things in the culture to be responsive and relevant? Um, so it is a fascinating time to your point, in the context of so much change, uh, for us. You mentioned Covid earlier, indigent and AI. You know, we're implementing, uh, epic, which is a well known electronic medical record system. We are their largest implementation ever. So we're in the middle of that. We just changed our CEO and COO and Chief Nursing Officer and Chief Development Officer and Chief Strategy. Uh, I could keep going all at the same time. And then we decided, let's integrate a new health, another health system in at the same time, right? And et cetera. So I'm so grateful for the culture we've built through the years because there's no way we could be as stable as we are and still thriving, not perfect, without having focused a whole lot on culture through the years. Um, and the last thing, because I can't help it, I'll mention, I always talk about when culture gets tested. So during COVID as we come out of the acute phase, other health systems are reaching out, you know, asking how come your turnover never Went as high. How come you didn't experience this, that or the other? And we would always respond with culture. And it was built through the years, but it wasn't built for, you know, a pandemic. Uh, we didn't have a pandemic in mind when we were building the culture. It was about making sure we're delivering the best patient care. Right? But intro Covid. And that is the biggest test. People are dying. Team members are dying. Talk about being stressed. But I mentioned truly innovative. I will give you just a quick story, and then I'll stop. There was a moment we had to stand up. Team member testing, right? Because Covid hits. We've got to develop the test for it, and we need the infrastructure and the plan for it. We set everything up. Team members and their families are going to come and get tested. I get a call the day before, and at this point, I'm the deputy chief people officer. I get a call, max, we can't open up tomorrow. We don't have the swabs. We don't have enough swabs. So we have to pause operations on opening the next day, expecting people to come get tested. Later that day, I get a call, uh, from one of our innovation center. Max, we're going to be able to open. We were able to 3D print. Print swabs for you, right? And so in that moment, I say to myself, this is our culture. That no one said die. No one said, we're gonna give up. It was. We're gonna figure out a way. And they 3D printed the swabs, and we were able to open and begin testing our team members. You know, so you look at those moments and just, uh, gratitude for the culture, but then always worried about it too, because of all the pressures, everything we're going through right now, that you want to preserve it, but make sure it's the strongest and most relevant.

Speaker B: What's fascinating for me and listening to you speak about this is that culture is not just this thing that, um, like a feeling. Um, it is. You're describing it as like the enabler. Like, the reason why you're able to change isn't because of some change management program or some brilliant person. Um, here. It's the intentional sort of strengthening of that Culture is what has served as the platform for allowing you to move so quickly and do the amount of change, um, that you've done. That's really a different way of looking at it. So m. It's a different paradigm, um, for orienting to culture. Culture as an Enabler. Um. Uh, that's a beautiful story, Maxine. Um, Bill, when we, you know, one of the first times we met, you were actually on stage doing a keynote on this topic of culture. So, uh, you know, I'm curious to get your perspective, um, especially, I mean, taking what is like, essentially like an aircraft carrier and, and like moving it from traditional cable to a technology powerhouse, like, what were the implications there, um, when it came to culture? How did you manage that? And what are some of your learns about culture?

Speaker D: Yeah, sure. Um, well, the first thing I'd say is, I think the shift in, um, first off, we just got a master class on culture, uh, from the chro perspective. So, uh, whatever I'm going to say is sort of the footnotes and the, you know, around the edges. Uh, I would really just sort of stop, go back. You know, you can go back 3, 4, 5 minutes, listen to what Maxine said again. And I mean that sincerely. Um, so I'll add mine just sort of in the context of that, first off, um, secondly, um, because the idea that, you know, culture, I think it's a little bit like when you're teaching somebody to drive and their instincts are to, you know, just squeeze the life out of the wheel. Uh, and, you know, it's not that. Right. You have to understand that culture needs to. Needs to shift. And it's a living, breathing thing. And if we see or if we really take seriously this notion of the trilogy, that you're kind of a broader executive, you've got to take all the aspects of how to be competitive and deliver your purpose as an organization into account. So culture is going to evolve along the way. And it's really the management of the development of culture, rather than trying to hold on to, uh, a particular manifestation or expression of it so hard that you just choke the life out of it, um, it's sort of point one, uh, and that's been the case with us, I think, um, as we've moved more from the purpose and what we do for a living is the delivery of service, which obviously that remains. But it's actually the design and engineering of new services and new technology. It's meant a respect and an appreciation for a whole other kind of talent and employee base and making sure the culture is responsive, uh, to both sides. So more and more focus on innovation as something culturally celebrated as we grow the proportion of engineers relative to other people in the company higher and higher. So that's sort of point one, um, point two that I'd make. Um, and it's a carry on to what Maxine said about COVID Covid was just so interesting and, and obviously what people in healthcare industry did is the first and primary heroic story of those few years. But um, I'll use a provocative phrase. Um, in the years that followed I talked a lot to our employee teams about. I think Covid was when we, a little bit of a early 2000s term, we weaponized culture. Meaning um, if you think of one of the things that a clear culture does for you is it instructs people what to do when they don't have time to ask for direction, right when push comes to shove and you're choosing between two great outcomes or two lousy outcomes, or you're trying to prioritize scarcity, culture tells that person what to do when they don't have the luxury of asking. And during COVID while the healthcare folks were delivering physical care, they were also delivering telephonic and video care. I talk about our frontline employees, put the country on their back. We increased the capacity of our network by 30% in about four months, which is stunning. That would have been a three year run rate. But it had to happen for people to get to work, get to school, uh, to be able to see their loved ones, to understand what was happening in the world. All of those things happened through broadband. And the capacity of the country had a big punch and um, point towards center city business districts, downtown business districts. We had to build out the capacity in residential neighborhoods for 24, 7 capability that just wasn't there. Broadband capability is a physical thing that gets delivered in space. And so having to build that out and when I talk about weaponizing the culture, people's understanding that what we do is important, how we do it with integrity, with safety, with respect for our customers, respect for ourselves, all including the development of innovation, um, all of that fueled people making the right decisions, knowing when to just drive, when to take a risk, when to take a chance. Um, and then we've been able, I think to use that period as an educational tool to then tell that story and talk about now. What does that mean going forward as we face other kinds of challenge, some of which are merely commercial as opposed to uh, existential, uh, but it remains the best teaching moment and asset that we will have, I think for a few years.

Speaker C: Capability, ah, ability, capability and space speed. You know you described and that was the other thing for us that things we had talked about doing in the past we had to do in a short, so we were capable of the speed, you know, now, it also helped that some regulation was relaxed too for us, and that certainly helped. But.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, but I mean, so many organizations, every organization in the world was challenged by this common threat. And um, some were able to rise to the challenge and do extraordinary things and some got totally just like toppled or near toppled. And um, there's all sorts of underlying reasons, but I would say leadership and um, culture building and the culture that existed going into that storm, um, probably played a pretty significant role role in determining whether you rose to the occasion successfully or sputtered out or got toppled. Um, yeah, we don't usually think about who wants to think about COVID times. It was so hard and so traumatizing and yet, um, the heroic and acts of leadership that we saw, um, were just inspiring. Straight up, um, um, Bill's point, you

Speaker C: know, not wasting a crisis, right, that yes, it happened. Yes, it's hard to return to, but what did we learn from it and how can we continue to. Right, so just love the way, by the way, Bill, yours was a masterclass.

Speaker B: Just FYI, we have two masterclasses on culture here. Um, uh, John, I mean, when you're doing a search, are. Are you. Is culture fall into the criteria? Or they're just like, hey, we just want an enterprise HR leader who can, you know, move and shake or, or who can be incredibly strategic. Like, do you ever get that specific ask, like, we need somebody who's an incredible culture builder or.

Speaker A: Yes. Um, but I think the more impactful thing that we're seeing from a search perspective is how much the of a more important variable within a candidate's decision is based on the culture of the organization that they are going to join. So yes, we all want people who are strong at managing culture, um, and defending it and helping it evolve as necessary, but you're getting much more cultural due diligence from candidates today than you did previously. And, um, I won't as a non chro, uh, presume to be able to add much more than Bill and Maxine did on culture building. But, um, if you can't clearly articulate your story and if it doesn't hold up under scrutiny, you're losing great people who otherwise could be incredible contributors to your organization.

Speaker C: By the way. Uh, sorry, Bill. I just wonder also, when you think about acquisition M and A and through the years, we had to learn to start with culture because I think back in the day we started with, you know, you've now adopted our policy, you're now adopting our process, you know, the light switches and you have our name. But now we start with relationship first and culture first. And let's compare our values first. And you know, so I'm not sure how just your perspective on that evolution as well. Or maybe you were starting with culture in the beginning as well.

Speaker D: Just wondering, you know, I know exactly what you're, you're saying, I think. And, um, I can't say that we always started with culture. And to be direct, I can't honestly say that we start with culture now. Uh, what I think it does is there gets to be a fork in the road pretty early, but a fork in the road that says, okay, we need to acquire this, but why is it going to be just an integrated extension of our footprint? And they have to be able to fit in culturally because they're going to be just like us, but in a new place or maybe in a new market or because. And then we're going to keep all the people, or do we really want the assets, the technology, do we want the market share? Something along those lines. And then we're going to maybe cherry pick the folks against the standard of culture. It tells us, I think, as much how to do the M and A or whether, depending upon how we want to do it, is it going to work or not? Because if it is, that notion of it's going to be just like us but in a new place. And so they've got to think and they've got to be culturally aligned to us. If the culture's wrong, then we're probably not going to do it. Um, we're going to be much more selective about how we get it done. But that's an excellent point. And if anybody's working in M, M and A and you're not thinking about that, you're making a mistake. Uh, how do you think about that? Or how do you know, Maxine, when you're looking at a target, whether they work for you or not? Culturally.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's a great point. And obviously we're looking at the dollars and their performance and then the way we build the relationship too will vary. In some contexts, it's an affiliation, it's a partnership, um, with maybe a view toward full ownership in the future. And sometimes we've had to walk away because we couldn't get the financials there, or we were so culturally misaligned that we said this is going to be more pain than value. Um, so it plays into the beginning of the conversation. And those conversations can take years. Nuvance. I mean, that's a seven plus year conversation before we Said yes. Uh, we're going to bring New Vance in and then of course having to clear every regulatory hurdle. Um, but we spend a whole lot of time up front going out. We do these big celebrations at the sites, we do a lot of dinners, we do a lot of gatherings. And we're not leading with. On this day, your paycheck is going to change. On this day, the brand is going to change. It's leading with listening and getting to know. And then we work a whole lot on what we call cultural immersion. So we assess what we call their cultural artifacts. How do they make decisions, who are the decision makers? Right. So all of those things, um, and then we go on a journey together. So a lot of high touch in person sessions around the values around the mission, uh, those types of things to get to know our identity in that regard for first. Um, now behind the scenes we have folks assessing and determining a timeline of when we make certain changes, but we don't lead with that.

Speaker B: Bill, this reminds me, you know, you were talking earlier about you can't like squeeze it, you can't like push it too hard or, you know, kind of like backfires. Um, and you know, Maxine, it's, it's really another masterclass, um, in strategy, you know, with regard to culture and particularly in M and A, like connect, understand, prior, do all that first before kind of saying, and here's how we sort of operate and here's how things might change. Right. Um, that's, that's really, really beautiful. Um, I do, you know, going back to, um, that orbit system, Bill, that kind of that dynamism, um, that as a leader we have to sort of somehow find a way to keep it in balance. There is actually a new planet that was discovered called AI. Okay, so let's like get that little elephant under the, you know, under the rug and, and just, you know, let's just call it out. Right? This is on everybody's mind. Um, we're all using it, all of us. Um, and it's tremendous. It's not just like, ah, a new cool technology, um, or like a calculator. It, it's arguably, um, something that, that will be transformational, if it hasn't been already, um, will be transformational to every sort of paradigm, um, within work and outside of work. Right. So, um, you know, I am curious to get everyone's take on what is your greatest hope and what is your greatest fear with regard to AI.

Speaker A: So probably not a function inside of an organization that has more opportunity and more disruption, uh, within a company than HR related to AI. You know, it's, uh, because AI is going to change the way we work. It's going to change who does the work, it's going to change where they do the work, it's going to change how many people we need to do the work, et cetera, et cetera. Also, AI loves data, and HR is one of the largest repositories of data that an organization has. So there's a lot to work with there. I think my fear is that without a lot of thought, um, there may be a, a rush to use AI to kind of hollow out HR processes before really understanding what it is that you're losing. So, um, you know, you get headcount reductions in HR that are labeled as AI efficiency, and then six months later, you know, you're in a cultural crisis because there's no one left who knows how to address an issue. Right. There's not a human there. Um, I think my greatest hope is kind of on the flip side. Uh, HR is forcing boards, forcing CEOs to continue to elevate the function and take, uh, the work of the chro more seriously than they ever have before, because it is that human AI integration, which I think is what's going to drive businesses forward. Those decisions are genuinely consequential to an organization, and they probably touch every part of your business. Um, so I think more than any other transformational change that I've seen in business, the chro is driving the AI conversation at a general management and a board level, much more so than I've seen in other transformational, uh, uh, initiatives. And that's a real shift. And I think the HR leader is the ghost in the machine here. Um, so, you know, you can have wonderful AI transformation that still has soul to it, um, but not if your human capital leader a significant voice in that process.

Speaker C: Wow.

Speaker B: Uh,

Speaker A: wow.

Speaker B: Uh, John, thank you. Um, Bill, where are you at with AI?

Speaker D: Yeah, so, you know, like, like other organizations, you know, we're within hr, within company. Obviously we're using it sort of. I'd say we're using it in big places, you know, some, some material rebuilding of processes, you know, big, big tools. Um, if, when we, if you're a customer of ours and you engage with us, there is AI running that instructs whether it's an online interaction that you're having with an automated tech spot, or it's a human being who's writing or a human being who's speaking to you. If you go into a retail store and the person Knows who you are, they're being fed AI driven tools to talk about how to retain you as a customer. That's a big deal for us. And it's working pretty darn well. And then using it small, where every day people are uh, kind of accelerating their work, whether it's first drafts or uh, finding information more quickly within the company's systems, uh, using AI sort of search as opposed to other things. So it's being used a lot. My, um, hope is that we actually use it well and we kind of don't get dumber because of it. Um, and uh, I say that a little smart alecky, but a little bit like, yeah, I hope we don't get dumber, um, meaning, um, to think that all the answers are already there, all the solutions are there. I just need a bot to quickly organize it for me because I don't want to have to or not going to think about it. I'm not going to bring my experience, my humanity to it. That's my biggest fear. Um, and I guess my biggest, um, hope, um, is that we do it well. So it's maybe just like John, it's the opposite sides of the coin by doing it well. I mean things like, and I think this is a cautionary tale for HR leaders, um, because every day somebody's trying to, excuse me, everybody's trying to sell you some AI. I think to buy it well, to use it well, to build it well, you have to have some fundamental idea of how it works. You don't have to be a data scientist, you don't have to be a mathematician, you don't have to be a computer scientist. But if you don't understand the basics of, you know, what a, you know what a frontier model is versus a LLM versus machine learning, if you don't understand how training data is used, all of those kinds of things, if you don't know how to properly structure prompts, um, you're really on the verge of, ah, HR malpractice because all you're doing is getting a kind of a gussied up faster version of asking for a random answer to probably an important question. And John, I'll throw in a commercial for AEHR Consulting here. Um, one of the first places that I saw a serious attempt at that conversation was with you. You partnered at the time with Microsoft and had just a wonderful. We were here in Philadelphia at the

Speaker B: Four Seasons about a year and change ago. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker D: And I have to tell you, I was first, I was like, what the heck is he doing this for. Because I. At that point I'm thinking, well, that should be a technology company. This should be, you know, any of the big technology consultants, the strategy consultants, not a leadership company. I couldn't have been any more wrong about the importance of you leading with that. And, uh, you couldn't have been any more right or, uh, insightful, uh, in bringing that to the market and bringing that to the service of your client community. Um, and I was grateful for it then. I remain grateful for it now.

Speaker B: Bill, thank you so much. And, um, we're still at it. Um. M. More. More than ever. Uh, huge, huge interest in how do we help our leaders become AI Ready. Um. And, uh. Wow. I totally agree, though. It's.

Speaker A: It.

Speaker B: And John, to your earlier point about, like, because. Because it's so much fun and you see how much time it saves, and. And you think about what that translates into from on the bottom line. And so you get into this sort of, uh, AI Euphoria, and it's like, I want more. I want more. I want. And then six months later, you know, you're like, oops, where's that person? Or, uh, oh, I forgot. We forgot how to do that. Or.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker B: So. And, And. And Bill, to your point about, like, you know, m. And this. This is my biggest fear, is that we essentially delegate our critical thinking. Right? That's. That's the.

Speaker A: And.

Speaker D: And.

Speaker B: And as this becomes more sophisticated by the week, by the way, by the. Um. You just argue, say, by the day. But, um, it's like, oh, well, I'll just ask AI And. And then what happens to that part of our brain responsible for critical thinking? That. That scares me.

Speaker C: You're just working on improving your prompts. You know, it's like, I have to have better prompts. But that's it.

Speaker B: Maxine, what's. What's going on in your world with A.I. uh, what's your hope and fear?

Speaker C: You know, it's so interesting what Bill said, um, because I think sometimes, you know, about all of the stakeholders that were managing through this, right? From the board to, in our case, even union. So we've got about 30% of our population. And even when you saw the screen actors and, um, you know, some of the strikes and that whole debate, uh, over technology. And, you know, I was meeting with one of the unions the other day, and it was, we don't want it replacing the clinical judgment of our nurses, right? And I'm saying to them now, think about the burden on nurses today because of all the administrative they have to do. Do you think their clinical judgment is best positioned and enabled today. So the way we're trying to look at it is can we create capacity so that they, it can actually improve their judgment. That's how I want you thinking about it. But they're asking the right things and they're challenging us in the right way. To Bill's point, we have to be thinking about it. So yesterday, um, on our enterprise wide HR town hall we had at one of the consulting firms present specifically on HR and ay, AI, excuse me. And there are these, you know, these different levels. So the exploring level, the experimenting level, the establishing the scaling and the uh, innovating and then you know, tested the team on where would you say Northwell HR is? Right. And we've got the integrated sites coming in with where they are in the journey as we pull them into where we are in the journey. So it's interesting to see the feedback from the team. Team. A couple years ago we, from an HR standpoint because we've got AI in the rest of the system happening, but we actually led um, with a digital assistant because I had to start to change the HR service delivery model because Northwell was scaling, getting bigger. We're growing for profit, we're growing into other markets but I can't grow HR at the same scale. And then I also needed to upscale our people so that I'm not paying people a whole lot of money to answer PTO questions that honestly, you know, an agent or something can answer. Right. And so we led with the digital assistant and now you know, it's uh, from recruitment to the support center and HR to other areas. But now with teams experimenting and having contests around building agents so we're allowing them while we've got formal uh, platforms but also saying it's okay to experiment. So go ahead, build your own apps. And we've done that. Go ahead, build your own agents so that we can rely less on the outside and build a lot internally as well. Of course passing. Every New York City's got laws and regulations around this stuff, et cetera and we have to comply and we want to ethically do the right thing too. So that's where we are. Um, and then we are thinking about the broader workforce is we project shortages in certain areas if we can for sure. And we've done a whole skills analysis in the org of all the skills at Northwell. We've got a team that's been scoring the impact of AI on those skills to be able to say to the organization, we believe this work can be not just augmented, but maybe even done using technology. Now let's look at these people. Can they be. We have a corporate university. Can they be reskilled through the corporate university? If they've got a passion into some of those areas where we project shortage that pay very well as well. So that's sort of our. The narrative. We are socializing right now and trying to get the org ready for that.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's really. And what's your, uh, greatest hope and fear?

Speaker C: Yeah. So, you know, honestly, the fear is. I've been reading more about the environmental impact, um, you know, even when you. Thank you. Even just that, please and thank you.

Speaker B: Make me a bunny rabbit that plays hockey. That just, like, burned down a tree, right? Yeah, that's right.

Speaker C: And the water for the cooling. And so, honestly, from a macro standpoint, that's my biggest, uh, fear. And then, you know, the opportunities around capacity. But I mean, the societal shifts, the cultural shifts beyond the workplace, that this is going to, like, affect. It's going to be very, very interesting as we create more capacity for folks. Does the workday, the work week become three days? Does it become four days? I mean, and then how does comp get? So my brain is trying to contemplate all of that. Those are some of the conversations we're having as we try to be futurists. Yeah.

Speaker B: Thank you, Maxine. Okay. There are a lot of HR leaders. There's a lot of leaders, but, um, within that, a subset of HR leaders and CHROs who listen to this podcast regularly. And, um. And it's hard out there. Like, it's. I don't care whether you're an HR cfo, any function. It's just it is not an easy time to, um, to work in this world. What's, um, one thing. I'm sure there's many, many things, but what's one thing you'd want our HR listener to remember tomorrow morning?

Speaker D: I'm happy to go first. Um, so we talked a little bit about competition and about the John's Wonderful Company, His Name trilogy. These three, uh, entities. I think, um, the need for people leaders, uh, HR leaders, CHROs, to sort of think of themselves as part of this triumvirate that you are in the competition business. You're not in the interior design business of just thinking inside the four walls of your organization. You've got to think about what I do makes us more competitive to achieve our purpose as a, as an entity. Um, sometimes I think that's lost on hr, and I think it's a Critical driver to help you prioritize and actually frankly to choose, uh, the HR talent around you.

Speaker C: Love that. So Bill is in this class of chros I call elite chros, uh, kind of fanning out. Uh, same thing with John. And um, you know, coming back to the seeing around corners, the thing that's going to distinguish you is, um, you know, John described the table stakes before, but the ability. Yeah. To be reading, uh, to be learning, to be scanning, um, to be a bit of a futurist. Right. Um, I think that's important. Uh, the seeing around the corners and making sure you've got a voice in that and that you're educating folks on that I think is going to distinguish and, and better ready your organization for any change.

Speaker B: I love that. So we gotta be an enterprise leader. This is not about just leading within your sort of four walls. Like you have to transverse across the organization.

Speaker C: Um,

Speaker B: uh, and you used the word actually sense making, um, earlier on the call, Maxine. But also like sitting around the corner, taking that time to really think beyond the next quarter or the next even year. Um, it's always been important to do that, but, but wow, is it very important right now? Um, amazing. Uh, John, what, what, what's a parting message from your perspective?

Speaker A: You gotta be a better leader. You have to be a better leader in your own teams because your people currently and historically are being trained for jobs that are not gonna exist five years from now. They are being trained to run steam engines in an electric powered world and your training programs are outdated. The way that they're being educated is outdated. And you really need to start looking at that. Um, because you're just going to. Maxine's issue around labor shortage and talent shortage. It's going to be exacerbated by the fact that the people that we do have are trained to do the wrong things.

Speaker B: Wow. Um, I appreciate that message. Uh, of course this is a podcast about leadership. So, uh, that's a great parting, um, advice John. And I do think that there is a huge risk in getting stretched too thin, um, being that enterprise leader and maybe perhaps spending over indexing on strategy and um, and, and trying to forecast at the expense of spending time with the team. Right. And leading through others. Because that is ultimately, you know, if you're just doing it yourself, it's not leadership. Right. It's through others. So, uh, I mean that's a yes and. Right. So you gotta do what you're doing, Bill, what you're doing, Maxine, and obviously, um, to hold it all together.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: We've got to be, um, not just good leaders, but great leaders. This was just a fascinating, rich discussion, and just so appreciate you all being guests on this podcast. And, um, that will conclude now, but thank, uh, you very much. And, um, we'll look forward to, uh, more great episodes on a podcast about leadership. Thank you, Bill, Maxine, and John for an amazing episode.