Bricks, Culture & The Building Blocks of Leadership with Brickworks' Steve Bell & Jamie Ramsden

Hello, I'm Jonathan Kirschner, and this is a podcast about leadership. And today we have Steve Bell and Jamie Ramsden, both leaders, uh, both CEOs and, um, but it's unique to have a leader and his or her coach together to discuss that. Um, and so we're really going to hone in on that as well as some timeless lessons from Steve on leadership. We're going to talk about something that is, um, pretty foundational Literally, no pun intended, a brick foundational to civilization, to the world. And Steve, for his living, leads an organization that makes many, many, many bricks. And we're going to learn about the interesting paradoxical nature of the brick, which is timeless, and yet leadership in today's time, which is quite dynamic and full of change. And so it's wonderful to have you both here today. I'll formally just share a little bio. So Steve is, is the president of Brickworks North America, which is a subsidiary of Australia's largest brick manufacturer, Brickworks Limited. And his path to the top is slightly unconventional. So Steve actually made his way to leading HR and then went from HR to leading the business as president. And that is an unconventional path. I'm definitely very interested in understanding that more. And, and Jamie is a former CEO, CEO of Adastre Leadership, an incredible leadership advisory firm. I have the incredible privilege of working with Jamie and Jamie working with AIR Consulting as, um, one of our elite executive coaches and leadership advisors at AIR. Uh, Jamie was also a former CEO himself, in the hot seat at one point in time, um, managing an automotive parts organization. And so, um, he's sort of been there experientially and, um, is there, uh, through Adastra and guides and advises many, many CEOs today. And so it's really fantastic to have you, Jamie, on the call. It's great to be here. Okay. So, you know, I brought this prop. This is actually not a brickwork brick. If it was a brickwork brick, it would look much nicer. This is just— this is a brick from my place. And but, you know, these have been around for thousands of years, presumably. And, you know, it's sort of like the building blocks to civilization, from the pyramids to the Great Wall of China. I don't know, the ancient roads of Rome. So what is it about a brick that made it endure when so many things have come and gone? Since you spend a lot of time with this, Steve and Jamie, if you have any you know, insight into this as well. But Steve would be a subject matter expert in bricks. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on it. Oh, absolutely. And actually, you hit on it. You know, it's foundational. It transcends generations. And that's what's interesting about brick. And it lasts a lifetime, a lot of generations' lifetime. And what we found— we've been in business for over 135 years. And one of the things that has allowed us to be relevant is that as, as the generations go on, so do— so does our society advance and change, and we have to change with it. And so what you see there in your hand was a paver. It was a simple, solid brick, and it can be used in many different ways, whether it's in the wall or down in the sidewalk or even in the street. But often people think of a brick as a red brick. We grow up in the city and you see a lot of, a lot of red brick. We grow up in, in different, you know, in institutions, in schools and in universities. And what do you typically see? Red brick. And that gives us some comfort and a sense of heritage. But what people don't realize is it's not just red brick. There's— we make bricks of different colors in, in over 300 to 400 different colors. There's different sizes, there's different shapes, there's different textures. And so you blow that out and, and all of a sudden you have a portfolio of an offering of over 3,000 different types of brick that we could sell. Over 3,000 different types of bricks. Absolutely. When you start mixing and matching color and texture and size and shapes and what has happened over our history is that we have been able to stay relevant with the market by adding different colors, helping architects and designers as they imagine what that building and that structure is going to look like. We've been able to provide them with brick that will fit those, those inspired buildings and structures that they're coming up with. Even as trends change with glass and metals and, you know, different, building materials, we've been able to stay relevant because we've, we have innovated and come up with bricks that, that match any style and any trend over, over the generations. How do you make a brick? It comes from the ground. It's core. It's a quarry, right? So you're pulling shale and clay and, and out of the ground and, and you're mixing different seams. You know, we have geologists on staff that are looking in, looking for quarries that have different types of, of raw materials allow us to make a brick that has a red body or a buff body, you know, depending if you're using clay or shale. And then you're putting additives into that and you're grinding that down. So you're grinding a mix of, of stone from a quarry. Yes. And then, and, and, and then you're either extruding it or pressing it through a machine to give it its shape. Right. And then what, like, and then you're cutting it and, and then you put it through a drying and a heat heating process through a kiln. Okay. And after it comes out of the kiln, you, you, we call it dehack, or you unpack the kiln cars and, uh, put 'em on, uh, in cubes or on pallets that then eventually go to a job site. That's amazing. How many, like, how many bricks do you sell a year? So we will make up to 300 million bricks in a year. 300 million bricks. Yes. In a year. And we do that across 8 manufacturing facilities in the northeast quadrant of the United States from Sioux City, Iowa, all the way here to Pennsylvania. That's incredible. Yes. That's incredible. So like, so tell us about the business. I mean, it, it like, what's it like working in a brick company? Is it just sort of this stable, steady eddy thing? 'Cause bricks have been around for 1,000 years or Is it, you know, what's it like being a brick company in 2026? It's actually— it's interesting because I started with the business 9 years ago. Okay. And we have a group of people that have been with the business their entire career. So we actually have people in our team that have been with us 30, 40, 50 years. And the pride that our people take when they go down the street and they say, oh, That's our brick. And, and our employees can identify brick in the wall. I wish I was that good. Whether it was— it's whether it's your brick or somebody else's or the— but there's a pride that, you know, so a salesperson sells a job. Yeah. And they know that they sold that complex or that school. And so they drive by it in their own communities and can point to, I sold that job, I sold that job. Some of our employees, even in the production, in the manufacturing facilities, know certain jobs that they are made in their plant. So we try to make sure that even our people in the factories know some of the projects that the brick is going on, so they can also have that same pride because they're building our communities. They're part of building the communities that we live in. And that's actually our first value when you look at our values, is care. One, care for the safety of our employees, care for our environment, care for our communities. And we are making a product that goes into our communities that lasts forever and it becomes a part of our, our community, our society and our heritage. That's— does a brick last forever? Does it, does it degrade? I mean, this is a technical question, but like it can. Yeah, I mean, it's coming out of the ground, right? So Yes, can it over time come? But it is one of the longest lasting building materials that we have. And so for example, in New York City we do a lot of restoration work because with the brick being on high rises, sometimes it's the mortar that might deteriorate in between the brick. So you have to repoint brick and you know, when, if water gets in there, then it could damage a brick over time if not set right. So we come in and we'll match brick And a big, a big part of our business is, is Match Brick into New York for restoration. Wow. Now that's really— you look at the Chrysler Building, that's our brick. That's your brick? Yes. That's your— oh my God. And finally, one last thing, just to kind of give you a sense of the pride. We had worked with an architect in New York and they had a special shape. They imagined this special building in New York City, and we had the architect for an event, and we had the employees who actually handmade these special shapes for this, this building. And we brought them to New York for this event so they could meet the architect, go see the building in person. I mean, these are, these are, these are people in the factory who use their hands to make each one of these brick. And then when they go to visit the site, who comes walking out? Melissa McCarthy. She happened to live in that building, huh? And these, these employees had the most incredible experience. But that's, that's the connection that our people have with, with what we produce and the communities that we live in. And it's really so special that— I mean, it's like you said, you're building communities, literally, like homes, buildings that we work in, that we go to school in. That is— that's really special. So Brickworks itself is one of the largest brick companies in the world, presumably. Yes. So Brickworks in Australia is the largest— is the largest manufacturer in Australia. Brickworks North America and Big Langieri manufacture brick products is number 4 in the United States. She's number 4 in the United States. Okay. So to get to that size and to, and to be, you know, such a substantial organization in this, in this space, I'm sure required lots of mergers and acquisitions, a lot of M&A. And in addition to these sort of organizations being integrated into the larger organization, there's also an additional sort of culture, I imagine, because Australian culture is a little bit different than, say, US culture. So you have, I guess, many— there's, there's, you know, a natural sort of, um, situation where you have all these different, say, subcultures within a larger culture. How do you, you know, so First of all, maybe you could just help me understand, you know, what that, what that looks like experientially. And then I'm very curious about how you lead effectively, you know, when, when you're bringing different cultures together that, you know, maybe have slight nuances, maybe not so slight in, in values, in priorities, in, you know, what behaviors are acceptable, rewarded, encouraged versus not? Help me understand that. So let's start off with the basic cultures. And sometimes we think about the fact that, you know, language is the biggest difference and barrier at times, right? And so then we assume that because another culture like Australia, they speak English, so, oh, this is a good match. Not necessarily. They have some very strong values and their culture, no different than we do here in the US. So right then and there, just because we speak the same language doesn't mean we're the same. And we have to recognize that. We had to recognize that right from the beginning. You met— we mentioned a minute ago in Australia, the largest brick manufacturer, and they're— and there's only one other competitor. So they, they control a great deal of the market here in the United States. We're just one of 35 brick manufacturers. And our— every state is like a different country and there's different needs, different markets. So it's more complex. When Brickworks came over, we began to acquire a couple of other brick manufacturers, Sioux City Brick out in Iowa, and then Redland Brick from the Beldens, which is basically based in in Maryland. Okay. And so immediately we recognized the fact that even though they're different brick manufacturers, they have a, a very long line of heritage, no different than Glengarry did when Brickworks bought Glengarry. And so while we've all been successful in our own right, um, we don't necessarily do things the same way. Mm-hmm. And we served different markets, served different purposes. No two brick manufacturing plants are exactly the same. And so what you have to realize very quickly is that, all right, what's your commonality? Where can you find, you know, common space? And the thing that you find is, oh wait, we all want to make money selling brick, right? And there's different ways to do that. All right, so now let's talk about how we do that. And, uh, all right, so are there some values instead of, of operating principles and ground rules that we can agree upon that we're gonna— how we're gonna— how we are going to operate. And so, you know, you start to think through and, you know, Jonathan, your company and David and Jamie and the team have been very helpful in us making sure that we're taking into consideration all the different points of view and the heritage. And then how do we identify and agree on a set of values and principles that allow us to operate collectively. So sort of figuring out like what's that common ground, right? And, um, and then I, I, you said use the word operating principles. So, so is like, you know, here's what we can all agree on, um, in terms of how we, you know, how we execute together, how we coordinate together. And then do you allow for you know, variance in other things? Like, you know, or is it like, here we're all gonna row very tightly together in a highly cohesive way? How do you think about— The trick is, and so you just even look at our values, and the values, so we care, right? Then the next thing is we collaborate. You gotta bring everybody, you gotta bring people together around what we're trying to accomplish and a set of clear goals and expectations. But you have to also make sure when you collaborate, you include. So who you include in that collaboration, what that— depending on what the situation is, you do need to be inclusive because you want to hear from people who have different perspectives. And that's where the cultures come in. You know, I want somebody who was, was legacy Sioux City Brick. I want somebody who is legacy Redland. I want somebody who is legacy Glengarry or Brickworks, uh, in Australia. Because all of, all of us bring a different experience and ideas to the party. And if we're going to exceed, which is our next value, it's going to be collectively and then coming together and, and coming to an agreement on our path forward. And that's where you get alignment. And if you have alignment and clear goals and expectations, then you start to exceed. All right. And then once you exceed, our next value is to lead. Now you're, you're exceeding it and now you want to— now you have the right to, to lead and you want to be on the forefront. If you're leading, that gives you the license to innovate, which is our next value. And we want to make sure that we're innovating and staying current with what the market needs are and the trends and the styles so we stay relevant. Right. And then finally, if you do all that, the last one is you do it with integrity. Then, then you have relationships that you build over time, not only internally but externally. And it shows. And so that's been our, our secret to making sure that we're honoring and recognizing people's experiences and heritages. Including them and leveraging all the positives to have a success— successful business and outcome. I love that. I, Jamie, I'm curious because, you know, you've been in M&A, led M&A, coached leaders who are doing M&A and integrations all the time. And, you know, it's, it's, it, you know, there's a lot of variance in how successful an organization is. And, you know, when you treat M&A as a spreadsheet exercise and then say, all right, here are the values and let's go. Yeah. You know, for— you might even actually think it's working, but then, you know, you find out 6 months later when, when you look at some, you know, retention and culture metrics, oh my goodness, we have— we have a problem and we're not— we're not rowing together here. I think the concept around sort of culture and culture integration whether that's cross-border culture or whether it is, you know, in company cultures, we, as we acquire organizations, is something it, you know, it's a current that you may not be able to see, but you definitely live it. And if you're not aware of it, you will come unstuck. And, you know, Steve and I shared when we first started working together, we had a very similar experience because, you know, and I ran the Americas, our headquarters was in the UK. And so again, we spoke the same language, you know, we, we thought that we had the same underlying principles, but there was very, very, a lot of very different market conditions and a very, a lot of different cultural conditions. Uh, and a part of my role was, and I'm sure Steve's was the same, is like helping translate like what our expectations are and what's going on in our market and how that's different. Um, I think about sort of incentivizing salespeople. That's very, very different in the US than it is in the UK and Europe as an example. And so, you know, that cultural awareness, Steve is highly attuned to it. He's very good at managing to that. He's just explained why, because of that inclusivity and collaboration. But if you're not aware of it, you know, you will be shaped by it. You won't be shaping it. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And I just think that it's so common to see, I see this all the time where, where people just run towards the, you know, making so many assumptions that, that we're all on the same page and, and we all want success. And so let's go. And they don't take that time to align to your point on alignment, but specifically on these operating principles or the behaviors that are going to set us up for success. And conversely, that would be, you know, that could undermine our success. Yeah, there's another key point here, Jonathan. Yeah. Is that, you know, and you both mentioned it, is we often think of M&A and an integration as a finite period of time, right? Because there is, there is a project plan and, you know, we have to get this much savings or we have to integrate this system and that system and it becomes, it becomes a project, a project.— it never ends. It's a 9-month project, 18-month project. It never ends because we're all unique and different. We all have different backgrounds and heritages. We never let go of that. We can adjust and flex, but we are who we are. And that's the one thing that I think is very important. I mean, we have people in our organization who've been there a long time and add value in many different ways. And you have to recognize that. You know, everybody thinks, ah, yeah, come in, change this, pick the right per— but whoa, whoa, wait, before you do all that, time out. We look at people in the sense of what value do they bring to the organization? And if they're not here, how are we gonna accomplish what they do very well? You know, and it's constant and it's ongoing. And anybody who thinks it's finite is gonna run into some problems at some point in time. Well, this is the fallacy of like thinking that culture is, is a sort of set it and forget it. Like I can come up with these culture standards, I could roll it out in a, in a really nice way and have town hall, you do all sorts of activities and then be like, I did it, you know, in some ways what we're really talking about with M&A is culture, right? I mean, there's obviously the business synergies and the benefits, but, but in the end of the day, what makes or breaks M&A, assuming you've got the business piece right, is culture. No? Yes. And, and all, and the other thing people tend to forget is that, you know, you buy a business because you see value in it. If you go in and you strip it, then you lose some value and you have to be careful not to lose the value that made it attractive to you. And again, it's getting back— you got to be careful that it's not a project and it's not a spreadsheet activity. It is an evolution and it is something that you always have to work on. No different than a personal relationship or a marriage. And you and I have talked about that, you know, and you just take your personal life and your families and stuff and it never ends. It just continues. It changes. And And business isn't all that different. There's a lot of parallels. It never ends. This is brilliant, actually, because I— yeah, when you go through an integration, you see it as a project. Yeah, that's so— so I am very curious, just shifting for a moment. You started at Brickworks as the head of HR. Correct. I, you know, I, I love HR. HR I think is actually one of the most important roles in an organization. I think increasingly so in our times of, of AI disruption. And when we think about agentic AI and embodied AI, so, so I am, I am bullish on HR and the CHRO role, but you don't often see somebody go from HR to CEO. Usually it's COO to CEO or CFO to CEO. So I'm just deeply curious about that decision and, and just help me understand that journey. And how does being a former head of HR sort of inform and help you lead as president of Brickworks? Yeah. So it goes back to early in my career, I was interested in all aspects of the business. I selected HR not because I like people, but because I was curious. And in the HR seat, it gave me the opportunity to learn about all aspects of the business. Because what do you do? You recruit people. And first, first job, staffing manager. Oh, okay. So what does this allow me to do? It allows me to learn every position of the job because I had to recruit recruit people. If I'm going to do an effective job of that, if an HR person is going to be effective, they need— it's helpful to know what, what the business is, what's the job, how does that interplay, you know, what skills does it require. And so I've always taken the approach of learning and understanding the business. In my mind, number one, I can't recruit good people to the organization if I don't know that, and I have to have people who fit the organization. Well, I need to know the dynamics of the organization to do that. And then if I bring people in, the next thing you say to yourself is, oh, oh, okay, if I'm going to help a manager manage performance or employee relations issues, well, I better know and understand the dynamics of the organization. And oh, what's preventing somebody from achieving their goals or doing the job? And so my approach throughout my career has been to do that and become part of the business because I didn't feel I could do an effective job if I didn't know and understand the business. Yeah. So it started there and then throughout the years you learn it until all of a sudden you're tapped on the shoulder and asked the question, you know, would you be interested in doing this? Or you realize like, oh, wait a minute, I might be able to do this. You raise your hand. And so that's, that's how I got to— got— I— that's how you became to where I am. I mean, it's— I don't know, it's— Jamie and I've talked about it. I, I always position myself, I always believe that the president or the head of a division, you know, the— a real good one had a finance person on one shoulder, an HR person on the other shoulder, you know, talking in their ears and saying, hey, watch your blind spots, watch your blind spots. Oh, did you see this? Don't forget that. Watch out, don't get sucked into this, you know. And, and having A good finance person, a good HR person, always I thought was critical to that. So I always positioned myself that way as an advisor to the leader of whatever department or business unit or business that I was supporting. And Jamie and I talked about that, and that's where Jamie helped me out a lot because I was like, oh crap, I went from the advisor to the decision maker, you know, oh, the buck stops here. And I realized, wait a minute, I'm not making the decisions. I'm facilitating that process through that collaborative environment. But That's what Jamie and I talked a lot about is, all right, now how do we, how do we get there? But that is different. It is totally different. Like being like, I think here's some options or I, you know, I think we should go in this direction, but it's ultimately somebody else's call. And now you're in that seat making the call. Exactly. And that's a, that's, there's, there's a different burden there. The other thing too is you realize that, oh, all these years I've learned the business, I understood the business. Well, when you're in the CEO chair, the president chair, now you have to know it at a more significant detail, you know, at a different level. And you get, you get a little bit more immersed into the detail of the business and, you know, customer relationships, supplier relationships and so on and so forth. So yeah, that's what I found. Very interesting. And people ask me all the time, well, what's the difference? That's the difference. You may think you know it, but there's still more to learn. Yeah, that's— well, this is all reminding me of one of our coaches at AIR, Mike Bliedorn, has a saying. It goes, strategy, structure, process, people. And when he first said that, I was like, Mike, like, that's, that's so harsh and cold. Like, It should be people. People are our greatest asset. It should be people, you know, you know, structure, process, strat, you know, or maybe strategy higher. But you know, as I'm, as I'm, as I'm playing with it and he is like, nope, strategy, structure, process, people. And, and it, you know, it's all, all of us, you know, gravitate towards the field of leadership or HR psychology for me. Because of our love of people. And, and wow, if you're not a compassionate leader, you're going to have a really hard time today in this world, I think. But it is, you know, it is easy to confuse that passion and put people at the top. As unpopular as this may sound, you actually need to But you actually have to engage in that order of strategy, structure, process, and then let's acquire, develop, cultivate a culture with our people that is able to actualize and activate the business strategy. And that's, that's actually like one of the hard I mean, that's one of the hard lessons I've had over the 17 years of being CEO. I was very fortunate a number of years ago to come across a leader who taught me that and said that. It's not popular. No, but you know what? When you think about it for a minute, if you really do care about people, you want to put them in the right position and situation to win and be successful. You can't do that if you don't have a strategy, you understand what you're doing as a business, right? If you don't have a structure to support that strategy or processes to support that strategy and structure, and then you get the right people to be successful. It's no different. Take a baseball team, right? And what do you want to do? You want to put people in positions that they can be successful on the field. I'll never forget coaching girls softball, my daughter's softball team. And I'm looking around— the most from that. It's unbelievable. Yeah, it was my leadership playpen, right? And number one, my wife said, never yell. Because the girls will tune you out, you'll lose the team and forget about it. And that was a great valuable lesson my wife taught me early on. And then, then what I realized is, oh, wait a minute, I want these girls to succeed. I want them to have a good experience. So as much as one wants to play first base, I'm not going to put a girl who has trouble catching the ball at first base. I'm not going to put a girl on third base that can't throw the ball across the diamond. Because I want her to succeed. And so I started with the parents and I explained how we're going to do this. And the idea was, I'm going to put that girl— wants to play third base, she's going to start at second base. She can make that throw, then she goes to shortstop. She can make that throw, then she goes to third base. If you don't have a strategy, a structure, and a process, you can't put people in the right position to win and to be successful. You're not setting them up for success. Exactly. And so if we really care about people, which we do, Yep. Then it's imperative to know what direction you're headed in and putting them in it so that— because here's the other thing about that, that example is that if you put that girl on third base and she can't throw across the diamond, what do all the other girls think? Right. What happens to the rest of the team? They become demoralized. They start not liking that girl. It's not her fault. It would be the coach's fault for putting her in a position not to be successful. And so we talk about the things that shape you over the years, and I reflect back, and Jamie and I've had these conversations. There's so many things I look back on in life that have shaped me as a leader that are all relevant today. It doesn't just happen. You just don't go to a course and all of a sudden it happens. I could go on for days to tell you about all the different experiences I have that have shaped who I am today. Wow. That allows you to be successful. Yeah. And that, that's one of them that you just mentioned. And it's a critical one. I love that. And I love that you have this incredible leadership lesson from being coach of your, your daughter's softball team. That's, that's very special. I'm going to— Jamie, what are your thoughts on this topic? It was really interesting because we were talking recently, you and I, about like the last two topics we've talked about, which is number one is when you become CEO, the buck does ultimately stop with you. You have that sense of responsibility, which typically turns up in those 3:00 AM wake up moments. They don't happen when you want them to happen. They typically, your brain rattles you and says, hey, I've got something to tell you and it's not good. And it's normally 3:00 AM. But the second piece around care, how do you care and be compassionate for people. And this is something that we hadn't talked about expressly, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on. Sometimes the most compassionate thing you can do for somebody is actually to let them go. And I'm always sort of, you know, we're always in this dynamic tension as a leader of like, I'm calibrating my team, I'm looking at capabilities, I'm looking at motivation, I'm trying to understand, you know, how's the team makeup and what does the individual contributors do? And if somebody's not performing, what does that mean for others?. And you know how most of the leaders I talk to, like, it's the hardest thing. I think you and I said this, the hardest thing is letting people go when they're not a good fit. And yet most of the leaders that I work with will say their biggest or second biggest regret was tolerating somebody in the team who they knew ultimately they had instincts that told them, or the 3 AM call that told them this isn't the right, this isn't working for whatever reason, either, you know, doesn't have to be somebody exiting but moving inside the organization or rescoping or a different position on the field of play to extend the analogy. So I'd just be interested to get your take on like, how do you manage that or grapple with that? Because it sounds or feels like it's the hardest part of leading when we ask across the CEO groups that we work with and also the area for most regret. Yeah. So First thing is that I, as an individual, see the good in everybody. And when I look around our organization, I can tell you what each individual is good at and what value they bring to the organization. So right there, there's, there's a trap in that, is that if you become so, um, loyal to that value, yes, sometimes you miss all of the things that aren't good about their fit in the organization or the job that you have them in and so on and so forth. And so what you would have to do is you have to step back and look at the total picture. And we talked about this, right? Extract and elevate. Yeah, because that's where you say, all right, that's great, that's a value. But it's incumbent upon us as leaders to say, all right, we know they're not a good fit, but we value this element of them. Who else is going to do that? How are we going to do that if they're not within the organization? Because that is the toughest thing for any leader, any level. You know, a line manager getting rid of a, a line worker is, oh my gosh, I'm not going to find somebody. Or, you know, there's all— there's some— you can always rationalize why not. You have to do is figure out, okay, why and how and what's the benefit. And oh, can it— can we bring somebody in who will be a better fit and then will help us accelerate the business more quickly to where we need to go. It's not that that person's not valuable. It's not that that person's not a good person, because the other belief is everybody has— there's, there's good in everybody. It's just a matter of whether or not we see it and tap into it. And even bad people, there's, there's a good element. But that doesn't mean I let them run the streets when they're criminals, right? So, but, and that's where we have to be more objective and we have to be resolute Thinking in terms of the greater good. And the greater good in an organization is the success of the business. Because if you have the wrong people in the wrong place, you're not going to hit your goals. You're not going to be successful. You have to take action for the greater good because there's another 900 people in the organization counting on you to do that. And if we don't have a business, then what is there? Because we couldn't make the tough decision. To me, I was just going to ask you, what's the hardest part of leading? I'll share for you. For me, it's getting really close with somebody, seeing that goodness and developing that really incredible relationship, that can sometimes, um, you know, get in the way or, or make it very hard to like hover up and see the other 900 people, um, and, and the impact on the system itself, right? And then what ends up happening, um, for a leader who, who sort of overindexes on empathy or relationship is they're managing, they're solving for their people's emotions and their satisfaction rather than the total system based on the structure, process, and strategy. So it's like, it's a real, it's like it's a real pitfall that can happen. It's a trap that can happen. And hardest part, I think, of leadership personally— and I want to get your take— is, is balancing that compassion, right, with leading the business, right? It's like, to me, it's a— these are two paradoxical skills, um, and, and you've got to be able to, to reconcile them and, and manage them together. But how about you? What do you find to be like the hardest part? So you asked earlier about being in HR. Yeah, that affects my decision-making and running the business. My background in HR helped me realize, and in different businesses, because in HR I was able to work in different industries, it helped me realize that, oh, wait a minute, as good as somebody is, there's somebody else just as good, if not better. If we think we're the best at any— okay, no, there's always somebody else. So life doesn't end after somebody leaves. And so you got to remember that, you know, there's not only one person who can do the job. There's other— there's multiple people. Yes. All right. And so that's where you have— that's where you can't forget that when you make these tough decisions. And you're right, it's, it's really hard when you're working with somebody for a number of years to make that tough decision. And we all struggle with it. But at the end of the day, you also see them struggling. They're not successful. And, and, you know, there's a compassionate point of making that change for the individual that, you know, is struggling. And, uh, it's just hard. It's just as hard for them to admit or see that sometimes. Uh, so, uh, and I've struggled with a couple of decisions I've had to make because I truly liked and enjoyed being with the people that we had to make those decisions on. But you realize wait a minute, it's not personal. This is— it's, it's what's needed for the business at this time. And while that person had did very well and is, has, and contributed an awful lot and still has value, it's just not the right time and the fit for where we're at as a business. Yeah. And, and, and whereas if you were in a follower role, you could complain about that person and also you know, enjoy the benefits of being with that person. If you're in an advisory role, you say that person may not be the right fit, but you know, who am I to make a decision? You as a leader, it's like, as you said, like the puck stops. You have to make— the puck stops here, right? Well, how about you? I mean, yeah, I think for me, the dynamic tension between— because people, you know, are like kaleidoscopes, they're very different and they change. Over time. So, you know, one of the biggest issues I see leaders making, or the biggest mistakes they make, is, is not understanding the motivations of the people that they're— the direct, direct team is understanding their motivations. So for me, how that played out, you know, it's this dynamic tension between wanting to give everybody a sense of fairness, right? The creating a perception of fairness while still having to tailor-make your actions and the resources and the support you give differently to different people in the team. And the way I squared the circle, and I say this to my kids too, who's part of my family team, is as a leader, I don't owe you equality. I don't owe you all the same thing at the same time. And that can sound hard, but actually it's the best thing because I owe you equity. I owe you all what you need when you need it. And it may be different and you may look left and right and say, hey, hang on, why are they getting something and I'm not? Yeah, right. Why are you giving them preferential treatment and I'm not? And you hear it and it gnaws at you. It used to gnaw at me anyway, this idea, like, people are perceiving that I'm giving preferential treatment or I'm spending more time with this person or giving them more support and resource. But once I was able to square the circle and say, hey, listen, I'm giving them what they need. Because, you know, they have needs that are different from yours, and I will give you your needs, which will be different from theirs. If we're going to stand here and say everyone needs to get the same thing or the same time or the same access or the same resources, then we will not succeed as a team. Yeah, well said. Yeah, that, I mean, that reminds me of your metaphor earlier. It wasn't a metaphor, just your anecdote about, um, the third base. You know, you know, it's like you can't— if you can't play third base well, if you can't throw across the diamond You might— there might be a better position, but we can't leave you in third base, right? So I think we would all sort of agree that leadership is not for the faint-hearted. It is— it is, you know, the seat can get warm, if not hot, as a leader, especially as a CEO or president. Executive coaching is, you know, it's really this, this, this interesting service. You know, I remember when I was learning about it in, in school, when I was in grad, my graduate psychology program, I was like, is this like, like fancy therapy? Like, what is this thing? You know, and it actually never truly, even though I was coaching, I never truly understood the benefit of coaching until I got a coach and started to sort of appreciate how valuable it was for me to have sort of this objective third party outside of my fishbowl that I could really talk about anything, but, but, but also get really focused on the business but like 30,000 feet up. And, um, and it was really, really valuable for me. I'm curious, you know, Steve, like, how has coaching, um, helped you? Uh, how has it contributed to your leadership? Um, and you got the man here himself. We could tell Jamie to leave. No, you know what, it— first of all, it was, um, it was hard at first because I came from HR. I was coaching others, right? So like, why would I need this if I could coach other people, coach myself, right? And, uh, and so I realized, okay, well, maybe there's something for me. But really, it was helping with the transition. And so when Jamie and I connected, um, if one of the first things he said to me was, you know, Steve, you can be lonely at the top and you can't discuss a lot of things openly with other people in the organization. And sometimes it's just good to be able to have somebody to, to bounce ideas and thoughts off of and to help, help through that. And so that was the first thing that I was like, oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. Right. And it's a safe space. For me to be able to say to somebody, man, this is really driving me crazy and I can't— I gotta, I gotta blockage. Help me, help me overcome this, right? Um, what do you see? What's your experience been in these types of situations? Um, and, uh, and so surprisingly enough, Jamie and I found some things and, and we did some, um, some, uh, assessments as well to help identify those areas. And, and I Look, it wasn't anything I didn't already know about myself. It's just hard to admit sometimes. And I have this tendency to want to prove everybody I can do it. And that's my nature, you know, ever since I was a kid, like, oh no, I'm going to prove you I can do this. And so— So to have to rely on somebody else or even acknowledge that somebody else could help you or give you an edge. Yeah. Is like somewhat contrary to to your internal wiring. And one of these, Jamie, got through my head. It was like, Steve, it's okay to ask for help. And I was like, well, what do you mean? And so you remember these conversations? Like, all right, all right, all right. And he said, pick up the phone, ask me. By the way, though, I find it fascinating that because I'm wired that way, too. And I mean, I think a lot of ambitious people are like, I got here because I out— outworked or outperformed or, you know, out this everybody else. I fought the big fight and won. And so like, it's almost like an acknowledgment of weakness to invite somebody in to help you. But the interesting thing is that like, if you look at other sort of elite performance activities, like anything outside of business, like whether it's any professional sport, I mean, I just met somebody who sort of owns and leads a car team, a car racing team. The team is massive. It's like there's a staff of 30 people and there's like 2 racers that switch. So it's just interesting to me that somehow there's like, I don't know if I would call it a stigma, But it's not a natural, say, conclusion like, oh, I should get a coach to give me an edge when we're in this sort of corporate context. Whereas you would never see a tennis star or a hockey player or a professional athlete without a coach. It's just to me very interesting. I don't know how we arrive at that. It's better than it was. Let's just say that. Right. So at least we're having the conversation about how having someone on your team who's gonna challenge you, hold up the mirror, and then celebrate your successes. But I think also, you know, most people, I think our best learnings come through experience. And so this idea like, I can do this, I can figure it out, you know, if, if that's how most people will actually choose to learn. And so this idea like, if I have somebody who tells me something I already know, then that's a waste of time. So it's either not effective or even tell something I don't want to hear, then you know, that's a waste of energy because I'm going to get frustrated and annoyed about it. And so actually the experience itself can be quite different, right? But it's quite a humbling experience having been through it myself. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to— we have Jamie's book, which is regularly read in my home. It weighs less than a brick. Not just me. Let's Go: How to Shape a Better Future weighs less than a brick. Yeah. It's easier prop to bring. I'm curious, you know, you got so much, it's so rich, the book. There's so many, what I love about the book, by the way, is that it's so practical. It taps into some very timeless, I wouldn't call it advice, it's wisdom. It's truly wisdom. But the way you write about it, it's just like accessible and practical. Like you could just put it to use. So, and when you, you know, think about this, this great body of work that that you wrote, and particularly the 4 leadership roles. So I think it's role model, community builder, sense maker, and future shaper. That's correct. You know, when you think about the work you're doing with Steve. Yeah. What kind of leader is Steve? Well, I will say that, you know, the first framing I always talk about is how much of the coaching work we're doing is about the context and how much is about the leader. Because the leader operates in the context and we as, as coaches don't get to— we get it through proxy, we get it through interviews, or we get it through the lead, filter the lead, or through online, through online assessments. But, you know, the context. And so sometimes, you know, the profiles will be— or if I'm working with somebody, it may be, hey, listen, there's some real blind spots here. I really have to work with the leader and then we can start to apply in the context. So it might be a bit more leader-oriented than context. In Steve's case, You know, he's ambitious, he's hardworking, he's a trusted pair of hands and proven that to the organization. He is intrinsically motivated. So although he loves to win, he doesn't need to be front and center. And so he doesn't take the spotlight. So we had all these really great groundings. He has integrity, he has consistency. So from a self-awareness and the self, you know, developing sense of self standpoint, we didn't have anything to do there really, right? It was, it was as much about, okay, how are we going to develop the team in this context? And so the concept, there was so many different things going on in the organization. It was, you know, we had lots of sort of challenging situations in different areas. And so it was really as much about how do we, number one, as usual, we sort of extract and elevate so we can at least get ourselves out of the weeds. That was something we worked on practically just to see the context. And then I think we were leveraging like the team when we first started, it needed some evolution and has been evolved really nicely to today's day. Then sort of sensemaking. And it's as much about, yes, sensemaking here, but as I described earlier on, it's making that connection back to head office, like what's going on in the market? What are we doing to try and anticipate and stay two steps ahead of that? And also shielding the team, you know, sort of giving them the freedom and the space that they need to do their work. So that's the sensemaking piece. And then sort of building a compelling strategy. I think that was, you know, so I'd say those three dimensions or three domains were more prevalent when we started the work. So that was around community building, sensemaking, and future shaping. And, you know, here we are now. I think we've evolved. I think we've come a long way since then. Oh yes. We have indeed. When you think about your leadership, and especially, you know, after really getting that edge, you know, through the executive coaching, you know, what do you see as your distinctive style? Or I sometimes use the word superpower, you know, as a leader, like what makes you different as a leader? That's always a hard question for me to answer. I had somebody tell me once, and I didn't realize it until they said it, that I was humble. It's not about me. Yeah, it's not about me. I am the last person it's about in our organization. We, you know, you heard it. One of the flyers said last night after the game or during the game is it's about the crest. It's about the T. It's about the organization. Yeah, I'm just the conductor. I'm not playing the instruments. I'm just the conductor of the orchestra. There's no solos and you're jamming out and then getting like— it really isn't. We have, we have fantastic people. We have a lot of talented people. Yeah. All I have to do is give them the room and the space to do what they do best and put them in positions to win, to help the organization achieve its goals. It's no different than who's, who's in the first chair in an orchestra or, you know, who are you putting in and what— same type of concept. And, and so I think, you know, just being humble and not realizing it's really not about me. It's not about me. And that's actually something that Jamie had helped me to get comfortable with in the sense that it's, it's my nature. But there are times where I got to make the decision and move things more quickly. And, you know, and so you can't just let it evolve all the time. You got to help it, you know, and that's where extracting yourself and looking and say, okay, And so I think that's something. And just trying to bring that calm and stability to an organization that's gone through an awful lot of change and being that, hopefully, that steady hand that allows people to be in a position to be successful. And I mean, so I mean, I absolutely love— it is the hardest question to answer if you're humble. Ego is, you know, it's quite possibly the source of all derailment, um, for, for a leader. I, I think, um, you know, there's probably a podcast on that topic, um, in the works. I mean, you got to have it, but it— but, you know, when it, when it comes out, um, just a little too much, right, it can, it can just— it can, it can destroy everything, right? And it can tend to present a distorted view of events. That's the difference. Like either I, you know, intervened here and I had outsized impact on something that was going to happen anyway, or I didn't intervene and that's why it didn't work. And that's where a lot of times somebody to hold up the mirror and say, were you actually involved with that? You know, what contribution did you actually make? And so I think that, you know, I would have said the same thing about Steve. He's humble and hungry. And I think if, you know, anybody who's looking at their teams today, if you can find that person in your organization who is humble, both Humble and Hungry, who leads through facilitation. A stealth leader is the way I like to describe it, where they don't feel like they have to take credit, but they allow the team to share the credit. Yes. Because there's another quote I saw in another hockey game that said, somebody said, I scored the goal, but there's 20 heroes in that locker room. And I think that to me is the ultimate definition of what we're talking about is, you know, you and I have spoken about this too. It's like leadership is ultimately, it's about people. And great leadership is about service. It's about serving the people that you have been nominated or elected to represent. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've invoked hockey twice now. It might be because we were just at the hockey game and the Flyers had a— I mean, to me, it was sort of almost a historic game in some ways. Some unprecedented events occurred. As far as penalties. And but, you know, I was going to ask you, Steve, and I know this because we both play hockey and you're a goalie. And I think there's another podcast, I think, about goalie psychology, like who in the hell would ever want to be a goalie and face pucks at, you know, you know, 80 to 100 and I don't know what, 107 miles. What's the fastest shot? 100, 108, 108 miles an hour. A hockey puck's not it's not a brick, but it's also not, not a soft, you know, it's not a sponge. It's not a wiffle ball. But there is something about, you know, goalies where, you know, you got to be— it's fundamentally like a humble role, right? Because, you know, goalies are celebrated, but usually it's the goal scorers and the folks doing, you know, some of the fancy toe drags and snapshots, and they get a lot of the credit and get the spotlight. So it doesn't surprise me that you play goalie. And I do think, by the way, that there's— you said humble and hungry. There's a third sort of dimension I think is really, really important, and that's the ability to stay like really even-keeled, that sort of self-regulation, that emotion regulation. Can be incredibly grounding, particularly in times of change. And if you're doing a lot of M&A or you live in 2026, you know, it's probably— you're probably exposed to a fair amount of change, right? But, you know, I am curious, like, the seat can get pretty hot, right? And if you don't do the right things to take care of yourself and to achieve some, some form of— I, I dare to use the word balance. I know that's a— that, that word, some people love that word, some people don't like that word. But, um, this role is not a sustainable role, um, unless you know how to engage in self-care and do things outside of work to fuel yourself, um, so that you have the energy required, you know, to, to get in there and do this, this very, very demanding job. Tell us about what that is for you. Well, number one is playing hockey. Playing hockey. The thing is, and I've talked about this for quite some time now in my— even in my HR role, and I'll tell people this, like, there's— you have to take care of yourself, number one, because if you don't take care of yourself, you cannot fulfill the needs that what you wanna do for the organization or your family. And your family relies on you because you work to support, help support your family, right? And there's this triangle of the fact that, you know, in order for you to be there and present for your family, the people you love, however you define family, right? We all define it differently. But there are people in our life that are important to us that care about us, but we care about them. And so, you know, the job is an opportunity to sustain and support my family or your family. And it brings a lot of great rewarding opportunities. And hopefully you enjoy what you do, but you can't do that and enjoy that and be successful in your profession if you don't take care of yourself. Yep. And all three of them have to be aligned. And there are times in our life that we spend more time feeding ourselves because we need to, or we feed our family because our family needs us, or our work, our profession, because our business or our profession needs us. And so the idea is, if you're feeding all three, then you can take some of that equity that you built, you know, that gives you the license to, to spend more time in any of those three aspects. And I think that's really important for people just to have that healthy balance, as you say, or to be successful in all aspects of their, of their life. And how do you like, how do you know when you're— you're spiking in one and you're staying too long? Like, how do you— what are the indicators? Like, do you do like a a weekly audit, or, or, I mean, is it like, wow, uh, I'm not sleeping well right now? And I'm just curious what, what kind of— if there's any practical techniques. Well, there's a lot of triggers, right? So, you know, we, we build relationships in all three of those segments, right? And, and hopefully you have a family member that's like, hey, I need you, right? Yeah, it tells you. Or, or you, you realize somebody's getting frustrated with you, or at work you know, something's going on, you need to spend more time, or you're not, you're disconnected, and you get some feedback from somebody says, hey Steve, you know, where are you? And then, and yourself, then you stay in tune with your, your body and who you are, right? And are you sleeping? Are you eating? And, you know, are you exercising? You get too far away from that in your body, you start feeling sluggish. And so it's an awareness. And what's most critical about, about this concept is you need to be aware. And you need to be— and if you're aware and you have strong relationships in each of those three areas, um, that's how you know. Yeah, well, the relationships, in addition to providing connection and love and, and fulfillment, become also, practically speaking, like a mechanism of sorts for, for, for achieving awareness, right? Um, which is, uh That's really— that's beautiful. Yeah, I think, Steve, aren't you going to celebrate 35 years of marriage? Yes. Somebody will tell you when you're out of alignment. That's next week. Yes. Yes, she does. And I'm very fortunate to have people around me that keep me honest, keep me accountable. Yeah. You know, and so, yeah, I'm very fortunate. To have a great family. And I've had a great— I would love to sit here and tell you all about our business and all our people and how great they are, uh, because we have some fantastic people doing some wonderful things. I'd love to sit here and talk to you about my family, but that, you know what, that's just— that— and, and what I like about all that is that if, if I'm not who I need to be, they're not afraid to tell me. Because I've developed those relationships that there are people at work that they know my weaknesses, they know my soft spots, they hold me accountable, and I expect them to, you know? And so it's important. We cannot overlook those relationships that we build all around us. That's incredible. Yeah, we just had, you know, Dr. Michael Platt, who's the head of Wharton Neuroscience and does like a gazillion other things. Um, and he talks a lot about the social brain network. That's like really foundational to his, his research. And, uh, and, and there's just so much research that all points to the same, um, conclusion, which is that if you don't have that social brain network, which is, you know, sustained and, and grows through interaction and, and relationships, um, there's just your health, physical, mental, it all declines. And, um, and so, uh, people close to me know that, right? So we talked about, uh, beer and hockey. Yes, beer and hockey. Guess what that does? One of the, one of the social networks. That's right. For you. Yeah, right. One of the top 10 combinations. Exactly. Um, um, peanut butter and jelly. So you're in hockey. Uh, we could go on and on. I am, I am curious, you know, so I'm gonna, um, I'm gonna invoke our brick here, and I'll put it on top of your book, Jamie. It's what you do. You wake up and you go to work and you work for an organization that makes, what did you say, 300 million? 300 million bricks a year? Yes. A year. That's a lot of brick. Okay. All right. So lightning round. If you had to describe your leadership philosophy using the brick as a metaphor. Okay. Okay. What would you say that brick signifies? Strength, stability, structure, and that allows you to have a solid foundation that you can build on. And it can, it can change in color and shape and say, which we need to do as the generations go on. And it allows us to grow and develop individuals, as leaders, and as a business. And so, you know, nothing more important than having a solid foundation to support your organization, but your people in the organization, they'd be the best people they need and want to be, and to also support their families and the people that are important to them in their life. That's beautiful. Wow. Okay, we, we definitely went brick, um, and that is— and you could get you know, you can get a little injured, a chip here. It's not perfect. You know, it's not perfect. It's not. We're not— none of us are perfect, right? There's always opportunity. But you combine that with other brick to make a structure, and it's not one brick. There's one brick doesn't do it. Yeah, it's a, it's a family of bricks. Well, what is amazing, you put 10,000 bricks on a structure, you know, or 100,000 or 300,000 brick. In a structure, it's not about one, it's about all of them. It's about all of them. And it's this, this inorganic matter that allows for the dynamism and change and organic growth in so many ways. That's— that is absolutely beautiful, Steve. Well, I really appreciated this time. I've learned a lot and never actually delved into the depths of what a brick could represent. Until today. And so I'm deeply appreciative of that and, and just, just really grateful for the time, guys. Thank you so much for sharing with our listeners your wisdom on the topic that, you know, I think you all know at this point, like, I think leadership is pretty much the most important thing, you know, when it comes to not just the day-to-day sustainment of civilization, but, you know, in particular shaping the future. Right. Which is a concept we talk about a lot. So, so thank you so much for being on the show. And we'll look forward to our next episode coming soon. Thank you.