Inside the Studio: Matchstic

Cameron Liebrecht: Clear is kind. Uh, honesty is kindness. Directness is kindness. Not wrapping up, underselling or trying to cover up the heart of the story is kindness. You know, to be able to be direct and straightforward and get to your point, whether it's in an internal presentation or an external expression of the brand, is so, so critical.

Blake Howard: Hey, everyone. Welcome to a Change of Brand, a show featuring behind the scenes stories of Rebrand Glo story, drama or disaster. I'm your host, Blake Howard. We just wrapped up season six and are now running a special bonus miniseries going behind the scenes of select studios in the branding industry. Today we wrap up that miniseries with one that's extra special to me because it's about Matchstick. And as you may know, Matchstick is the producing partner for this show and the brand consultancy that I helped start 22 years ago, which made this interview a little tough to navigate. Usually with interviews like this, I'm a bit of an outsider and I get to ask, you know, obvious no duh questions or outsider questions. But now I'm in it. It's almost like interviewing yourself. It's like cutting your own hair or breathing your own exhaust just a little too close to it. But hey, I did my best to stay objective and curious. You'll get to hear from two people that I deeply admire and know pretty well. We've worked in the trenches together on countless projects and this conversation felt more like a team meeting that we just happened to record. However, I think it'll give you some good insights into our world. Before we get started, let me do some quick intros. You will hear from Britt Blankenship, a matchstick veteran of 11 years and one of our creative directors. She's led branding work with ups, Publix, Human Rights, First Atlanta, Humane Society, and many more. Also, you'll hear from Cameron Liebercht, our messaging director. He is our verbal guru, you could say, and leads a team of writers. He has recently created brand voice and verbal identities for cbs, Yale Tiger woods foundation, and many, many more. They are two core leaders at Matchstick that are brilliant and it was a joy to record a conversation together. We get into what makes an ideal client, the mantras we find ourselves repeating and saying over and over and how AI is or is not impacting our work. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.

Britt Blankenship: Hi, everyone. I'm Britt Blankenship, one of the creative directors at, uh, Matchstick, and my background is in design. So how I got into branding, I was majoring in magazine journalism and though I loved all of the interviews and the stories, I wanted to do more of the graphic design part of it. So I added a new major. And then while I was in school, I learned what branding was and knew immediately that that storytelling, that design, that conceptualizing, putting it all together, it's what I wanted to do.

Cameron Liebrecht: Cam Liebrecht Messaging director at Matchstick. Um, geez, how did I get here? I kind of fell into it. I was an international business history double major, had, uh, an internship in the international business world. Hated it, uh, and found myself, senior year looking for something else, anything else. Uh, so I actually showed up to the school career center, saw a presentation from the good folks at Landor, uh, for their work on the 606, which is the old L tracks in Chicago that have been converted into a running trail that connects the neighborhood. And that for me was sort of a breakthrough moment of branding is a thing, something I think I might be able to do, and man, is it cool. Uh, so from there, that's kind of took off. Yeah. So, uh, after that wrong internship, I took another internship with an advertising and brand agency, VSA Partners in Chicago. Uh, loved it. Lucky enough to get a full time offer. Spent five, six years there doing all kinds of advertising, brand marketing work and found myself loving brand. And I knew that my next stop, I wanted to go somewhere a little bit more focused on brand, a little bit smaller. Not 2, 300, not a thousand people, but more like 30, 40, 50. And uh, matchstick was the sweet spot for that. So saw the brand work, really admired it, knew it was something I wanted to be a part of and been here ever since.

Blake Howard: Cool. Brit, what about you?

Britt Blankenship: So I was working at a full service agency and we were doing some campaigns and we had to kind of rethink the same campaign each year. And I said, well, I would be handed the brand guidelines, the identity guidelines, or the, uh, standards manual and pour over it. And I remember asking my mentor there, who makes those, I really want to do that. And he's like, I knew it. You need to go into branding. You probably don't want to be full service. So I took my first, um, gig, kind of full time gig at another branding agency in Atlanta. And credit to you, Blake, and your relationships and the city, um, they knew of you and had a great relationship with you. And so when my time there was ending, um, they helped tell me about Matchstick and the opportunity that was open there. And I've been here for, I want to say, almost 12 years now. So it's been a minute at Some

Blake Howard: point, you lose track.

Britt Blankenship: I have lost track, yes.

Blake Howard: And fun fact about. About Brit. Her interview at Matchstick was on a very infamous day in our city. It's referred to as Snowpocalypse. So as she was interviewing, it was starting to snow outside, and it was like, uh, okay, we should probably wrap this interview up, and you should probably go home, because it's a little risky out. And little. Little did we know that, like, a few hours later, the whole city would just be like ice locked for a week. So, uh, yeah, Fun. Fun memory. I've been asking this question in this series around studios, um, and, like, what they really focus on, because we know that agencies out there, maybe they have full capabilities or they offer a lot of things, or their websites will listen a lot of services, but we kind of have a belief that you can really only be good at one thing. And so I've been asking different groups, what is it that's your real sweet spot? And even though this is sort of a, you know, it's a family conversation that's being recorded for everyone to listen in on, since we work closely together. I'm curious, you know, what. What do you think is Matchstick's real sweet spot?

Cameron Liebrecht: Yeah, it's a little counterintuitive. And this is, I guess, my zag. I like that we have a sweet spot in terms of what we want to do, but no sweet spot in terms of who we do it for. You know, uh, we don't have an industry specialization. When new business opportunities come around, we don't always feed the same industry, the same type of project to folks to show them what we can do. Because we are working in so many spaces, different Fields, Nonprofit Media, B2B Tech. We're able to take those lessons from the branding process in those areas and apply them sort of outside of the industry in a way that makes that work feel fresh, feel exciting. And so this, I think, focus on branding, but refusal to commit to one specific industry or style or have a house style at all is, uh, something that makes Matchstick really special, at least from my perspective.

Britt Blankenship: I totally agree, Cam. I think coming to Matchstick, I felt this immediately. This idea that branding is an opportunity to dig into new worlds that you wouldn't otherwise know about you. You get to have a lot of curiosity and learn so much about other kinds of businesses and industries and team structures and business problems and design problems and storytelling problems. And I found it fascinating to be working on a, uh, project in one industry and then switch gears two weeks later and have to do a deep dive in a different industry. And I think the ability to spot trends and problems across industries is a great value that we bring to our clients.

Blake Howard: Yeah, there was one day where we were in meetings with a global irrigation company with a national trampoline franchise, and then also, uh, a, uh, uh, humanitarian global nonprofit. Like, like three meetings, three clients, one day. And I think that's a good snapshot of the variety of the type of work that we'll often do.

Cameron Liebrecht: Yeah, I mean, not to circle back too far, but I think that's one of the things that keeps me in the business and keeps me at Matchstick, because I like to say I know a little bit about everything. It kind of fits with my personality. I'm a little bit of an eavesdropper. Sorry, uh, whisper around me. I love to get on Wikipedia, and I'm like 10 clicks, 20 clicks deep, uh, through links before I know where I found myself or where I'm headed. And that's kind of what branding is like.

Britt Blankenship: Right?

Cameron Liebrecht: You learn a little bit about all these different businesses, all these different corners of the world, things that make the world go round that you didn't know about. And then you can take those lessons and apply them somewhere else, or you can just file them away. And they're. They're great party trivia.

Britt Blankenship: I think this also creates a challenge, and perhaps all. All of us here are excited by a challenge, and that is, how do we serve clients, even small and large? Like, where are they in their journey as a. As an organization? Are they, you know, in a, uh, in a fundraising round, uh, series, a round? Are they a global brand? And we serve both. And so thinking about being a consultancy that can tailor and that cares deeply about quality, but we don't always have the. The timeline or budget, uh, for an enterprise organization, uh, at our disposal. So I think the challenge is how do we serve each group as best as we possibly can with their personalities, at their problems, and then ultimately with the package that. That they can afford and that they need.

Blake Howard: Yeah, that's a good transition to talk about clients because, you know, at the end of the day, we are working on behalf of our clients to help them accomplish certain business goals. We do that through the expertise of brand identity and our ability to consult kind of through that identity process and really help them maximize the value of their brand as an. As an asset. Um, but sometimes for us, we have clients where that really works well, and it's like a great fit, and they see a huge return. And then there are Other times where it's just a little bit more difficult. What would you all say? Make. What are the qualities that make an ideal client?

Britt Blankenship: That's a great question. I love when our clients ask us this. I think trust is a really important factor if a client has hired us. Um, you know, I'd like to hope that there's a lot of trust in us and that they believe deeply in our expertise. And I find that most of ours do. They understand that we're the experts in branding, but they are the experts in their field and with their particular audience. So putting those two things together with a healthy amount of tension and collaboration, uh, can work really well and can create something great. So collaboration, enthusiasm, interest, um, buying into the process, making the time to really work with us versus just lobbing the problem over the fence to us and hoping that, you know, they, when they see it, they know it. But getting in there with us, I find that those are the best relationships that we would have.

Blake Howard: Yeah, the, there's a little bit of. I heard this recently and I really liked it, the Goldilocks effect. And there's like this balance between really decisive, um, but not domineering, you know, so it's like they're, they're able to make decisions, but they're also able to trust us at the same time. Sometimes people can be so decisive that they just take the reins and they want to tell everyone what to do and sort of dominate the whole thing. That's not really a great fit for us. Uh, but then others cannot be decisive and they want to sort of socialize and get feedback and let large committees. Our team's laughing a lot. Large committees to review it and, and then you're like, okay, guys, yeah, we gotta, we gotta make some decisions here. You know, like, we're not gonna pull 35 people to see if they're okay with the whole brand identity being purple. Like, that's not ever going to work. Right. But we can have a conversation about is purple the right strategic direction for you? And then the best, the best leaders will say, you know what, I'm not really a purple person. I don't wear purple clothes. But I get the, the rationale of the matchstick saying, I'm going to trust them and we're going to be a purple brand now. You know, so, uh, there's a, there's like a Goldilocks sweet spot there of not, not too open minded to just sort of socialize all the feedback or to delegate that decision. But they're also not so close Minded that they're the only ones that, you know, can, are in, are in control. Somewhere in between there.

Britt Blankenship: Yeah.

Cameron Liebrecht: I mean, I think that kind of dovetails in with trust as courage is a part of it. Right. Encourage doesn't mean you need to go crazy. Courage doesn't mean you need to be the wildest brand, uh, on the market when you launch that thing. But I think a little bit of courage in your vision to, to want to be distinct. You know, that's one of our challenges, I think we see all the time is, is folks want a new brand, uh, but they just want it to fit in. And we want you to fit in your category. We want to fit with your culture, but we really want you to stand out in the space so that when people see you, when they hear you, they, they grab that different perspective and that takes courage. It's hard to be the first to do something. It's hard to stand up and be willing to say, I'm different. Um, but that's the key to the whole, to the whole thing.

Blake Howard: Yeah. And especially now with things like Cracker Barrel or even the Philadelphia Museum of Art and other things that have happened in 2025 Jaguar, you're starting to see almost like this, um, mindset of, oh, I don't know if we really need to go big on any sort of a rebrand because I'm just afraid of that. Like, I don't want that liter literally. Some of, you know, over the weeks of that Cracker Barrel, um, you know, social media blowback issue, there were clients that, that I was working with, they were saying like, hey, should we be worried about what our rebrand? And you're like, you're, you know, this is a very unique one off scenario that is nothing like what we're leading you through. But people started to say like, oh, could this, could this happen to me? And so the idea of courage, I think is really under attack. We have to sort of help our clients often find courage. And we have a mantra called courage and care that, that I want to get Yalls thoughts on. Um, and it's this idea that, that we sort of, we serve our clients through pushing them towards the best answers possible. Um, and Britt, what does that look like for you? Or any examples of where that started to play out?

Britt Blankenship: Yeah, you know, right now I'm thinking about it from a healthy leader's perspective that we would work with, that we would partner with, and we have some really healthy leaders that I'm loving working with at the moment. And I see Them using courage and care by creating an inclusive environment where they're really inviting the right people to the table at the right time, which of course we're consulting them on. We're helping them think through and plan for that, but making sure those voices are brought in. I know that's a thing that's happened this year with some big rebrands where a lot of money is spent. The core team is, you know, hiding this project which needs to happen. These projects shouldn't be socialized at large for the most part, but they're forgetting the key buy in of uh, the upper leadership or the board or you know, a key group of stakeholders. So I think stakeholder management is really huge. But I think these leaders understand the care of being inclusive and hearing from people. By making it very clear this is not a vote, we need you on board. This is your moment to think through this very thoroughly. But at some point in time I, the leader or me and the CEO or the CEO will make a decision about this and we need you behind this decision. So this is your moment to really kind of lean in. So take the courage now. Um, um, I'm inviting you in, but then ultimately I'm going to take the courage it needs to consider everything and make a call. That to me is the best kind of leader and decision making that you can have.

Cameron Liebrecht: I'll build on the care part because this is the one I think I, I often find myself most challenged by. I'm not a patient person, uh, but I think care so often for us is patience. It is letting our clients and our partners work through the process in the way that they need to work through the process to sell it into their teams on the schedule they need to sell it in to determine the right level to share and who to share it with at those key moments. You know, I think back to a recent project with an academic institution whose name you would certainly recognize, but several hundred years of history behind them. Making even a small change, maybe a big change to a small part of the university, uh, and shifting their voice and tone was a Herculean effort. On the internal side, there was a ton of stakeholders that we needed to talk to, not just to get input, but also to validate output. The amount of sort of proof of concept demonstrations that we needed to go through to really prove the idea could work, prove that this change was right for them. Build confidence and courage on the client side was really rooted in an approach that, you know, started with care and patience and trust and being willing to maybe over Collaborate, uh, to make sure that we landed in a spot where we needed to. And here we are. It's done. It took a little bit, maybe longer than we expected. There were a couple extra, extra hurdles or touch points that we didn't plan for, but they're off and running and it's going great. And it was worth every, every little bit of extra effort and patience.

Blake Howard: Yeah. Cam, you are a very patient person. I was involved in that exact project that you're talking about and I would go off camera and bite my finger. I think mo more times than not. And you would just say, okay, tell me more. So being really patient is definitely, uh, courage and care. Now another, another example that comes to mind for me. And so we engage with the client. They say, hey, we really, you know, we need to define our, our brand strategy. We need to elevate our, our visual identity. And we say, great. And then they'll say, you know, uh, but the logo is off the table. We're not going to touch the logo. And we'll usually say like, okay, that sounds, sounds good, got it. Um, but then sometimes we get into the process and we start to do an audit and we realize, ooh, the, the mark itself really could be fine tuned and it's sort of the tip of the iceberg. And oh, we'd uh, hate to go through this process and you miss out on the opportunity to really refine this mark to make it more functional or to make it more distinct. And so one example is our work with Sky Zone, the trampoline park that I mentioned. They have a, uh, couple hundred locations, millions of dollars worth of signage. But at the time they're previous logo was really not functional and had a lot of room to improve, but it also had some recognition in the market. And so we said, hey, in this process we would like to propose a new symbol that slightly evolves it to make it more functional, a little bit more modern, a little bit more relevant. Are you open to that? And at first there was some like, uh, I don't know, but there was. The door was cracked, like maybe. Well then, you know, long story short, we made a case for why they should change. We helped them think about how they could do a phased approach and rollouts and only new locations get the new, the new logos on the sign and can help kind of manage the financial impact of it. But also to understand now's the time to make this change and momentum and brand changes is everything. So now that you've got the funding, now that you've got this project, like, now's the time to really make it ideal. And you can. You can, you know, slowly roll it out over time. But if you don't do it now, it could be 10 years before you get a chance to really make it what it should be. And. And you're at a point of growth where you think it's hard to update 300 location signs. What happens when you have 2,000? You know, and so that was a moment of like, ooh, I know they said don't touch it, but they really should. So we're going to lean into that, and that's the way that we really think about courage and care.

Britt Blankenship: Yeah, I mean, that's our job. We need to point out we understand your equity. We are not going to throw that in the trash. But there is an opportunity that you're leaving behind if you don't update it. And these are the reasons. These are the things you could gain if you update it. So it's worth it. This is the moment. And I think y' all did that really well with that Sky Zone process.

Blake Howard: And sometimes they say, hey, thanks for the due diligence, but we are not going to change it now. And that's hard for us. But it also is part of the care and understanding where they are as an organization. And maybe they're not quite ready for it. So that does happen sometimes as well. I want to. I want to jump to another question. Years ago, I went to this conference. It was real small. It was more like a workshop. And it was about how, um, to write a book. And this was before I wrote, radically relevant. And so the. Some of the guidance in this workshop was so great. And they basically said, hey, if you want to start writing a book, write down everything that you find yourself repeating to clients over and over. And, like, that's the content for your book. So these mantras. What are these mantras that you say over and over? So I was curious to hear from the two of you. What do you find yourself saying over and over to our clients?

Cameron Liebrecht: It's so funny. I'll start. And this is not one I say, but it's something I always keep in mind because Tracy Clark says it all the time to clients. Clear is kind. Uh, honesty is kindness. Directness is kindness. Not wrapping up underselling or trying to cover up the heart of the story is kindness. You know, to be able to be direct and straightforward and get to your point, whether it's in an internal presentation or an external expression of the brand, is so, so critical and I think it's something we often overlook one of our curses, or maybe it's a personal curse. As a creative is. I, um, love to embrace metaphor, and maybe I get a little out over my skis sometimes. Um, but Tracy's mantra of clear is kind. Always brings me back, back to earth, and I think serves our clients pretty well at the end of the day.

Britt Blankenship: Man, I have so many of these. Um, I think that one thing that I'm often pushing for and so is our team is just distinction. Get out of your comfort zone. I know that you're. I find clients saying that they want to be braver and maybe going with a safer answer or being tempted to. So just reminding them over and over and over again that people remember different is really important. I think, Blake, you'll be proud of me for this one because you've preached launch for a really long time, but really, the last few years, I've seen the power of thinking about that brand launch and that activation or implementation phase earlier and earlier in the process, and it's difficult. Clients minds are on the development of the identity and the brand and the brand strategy and the messaging. It makes sense, but we've got to be thinking ahead and planning ahead so that the brand is going to roll out really well and that the brand is not just beautiful inside presentation decks from Matchstick and then dies in the real world, which I think a lot of brands unfortunately do. I wonder how many beautiful things were in a deck that never made the light of day or websites that are okay. That could have been amazing. Um, so I think thinking about things and planning really, really well is something that makes Matchstick distinct as an agency. I continue to hear that from clients, from new hires that are onboarding with us, uh, from contractors. Wow, you guys are just so buttoned up. Like you're really. You think through things. And so much of courage and care for my role with our team is around design ops and making an environment that people feel is conducive for creating, but also balances the right mix of clients, the right level of challenge in their career. Not all challenging projects, but you want one. You don't want to just be on projects that aren't challenging you because you've done a lot in this particular field. Um, so I think courage and care, to go back to your question a few minutes ago, just has so many ways that we live that out here.

Blake Howard: Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Starting with the end in mind is always a, uh, helpful mantra to help kind of preach to clients and it's hard for them sometimes to m. Emotionally really like wrap their minds around that because they're so excited about the rebrand process or the creative process. But you have to kind of help them jump to. All right, let's talk about what will happen in six to eight months from now. Cause we need to, we need to start planning now. Um, and related to sort of like time and things into the future. You know, we talk about radically relevant brands. That's what we aspire to create for our clients. And the relevant part of that statement, radically relevant, I think is interesting because relevancy is always evolving. Like it's always changing. It's never, never static. What do you think makes brands relevant in today's market with crazy changes of AI or Internet culture or ups and downs, like, you know, it's always sort of ever evolving. So how are you thinking about relevance and what that means for some of our clients?

Cameron Liebrecht: I hate to again be contrarian, but I think relevant brands a lot of the time are the ones that don't get caught up in the fads or the trends. I think when you see relevant on its face, your instinct is to say, I need to fit in. I need to be a part of the zeitgeist. I need to be where the people will see me to tell the story that's going to resonate at this particular moment. And what I always come back to is that's a, that's a tactic, that's a marketing tactic, it's an advertising tactic. It can be super effective, but it's not a brand strategy, it's not a brand identity. Uh, so I always, you know, think the relevant brands are the ones that can stand the test of time, that have a timeless promise that doesn't get lost in shifting cultural trends, that, you know, has some kind of equity behind it that makes you feel the same way for 5, 10, 15, 20, if you're really lucky and you do it really well, someone like a Coca Cola, a hundred years, right, Those are the relevant brands. It's the one whose promise remains timeless, uh, whose promise will always be relevant even if their logo feels a little bit more old fashioned or their color palette is not, you know, a gradient or whatever the, uh, trend is. And I'll let Britt keep me honest on that.

Britt Blankenship: Oh, uh, Cam, I love that you're saying this. I mean, I think about this a lot because we partner a lot with ups and it's one of the brands that's my favorite to work on because it's so iconic. And of course, when we're working on this brand, this brand team's incredible. They're thinking about, you know, relevance. They're thinking about AI. They're thinking about ways that they need to modernize and push the brand forward, always. It's part of why we love to work with them. However, this is a, uh, team, and I think we're a good fit agency for them because we really respect and revere the history of this brand. And, you know, they're brown. That is so distinctive, and they don't change that. They own this brown and gold. And we think about new ways to refresh it. Like, we need to think about keeping a brand new ever fresh. However, um, we need to stick to what we're known for and not disrupt that really, really valuable brand. Recall that brand recognition, that saturation that you have in the market. So working with a brand like that, again, it's just such an honor, because I know there's these core elements of this brand that we can build new things around, new stories around. We do a lot of things like their illustration system, iconography, their storytelling cam you've worked on. We think through their graphic devices, um, their motion language, things like that. But it's respecting and revering a core that should not shift for an audience that has a lot of trust in that organization, and that's part of what that organization stands for, that's authentic and core to who they are and who they have always been. So it's that, like, you got to know thyself, and brand strategy has to be true about you and not just, well, we want to be this because everyone else is this, but this is who we actually are. I think UPS does a really good job with that.

Cameron Liebrecht: And I. I think, Brit, you said, uh, something so critical in there. Just one word. Audience. You know, relevance is what is relevant to your audience. Very rarely is a brand trying to speak to the entire world. And so if your audience is, you know, tech buyers in the C suite or, uh, teen athletes looking for better socks or whatever it is, you need to be relevant for your audience, not for all of humanity or all of America or whatever this broader, uh, group is. And that's why the focus matters so much. I think you need to understand what promise they're looking for, what promise you can keep for those folks and deliver on that. That's what keeps you relevant.

Blake Howard: Yeah, yeah. It really does come down to the audience, because you could have, you know, what is relevant to a buyer for a CRM, which is a B2B tech platform. You know, relevance is one thing and then being relevant, if you're a product marketed towards like Gen Alpha kids is very different. You know, like what's relevant to my kids right now is uh, a game on Roblox called Steal the Brain Rot where every Tuesday they have, what do they call them? They just have some sort of events where they like, they release things, but they're like time bound. You have to be on the device ready to play the game at a certain time and all their friends talk about it and uh, it's like my nightmare as a parent. But it's like so relevant to their world. Like these drops as they call them. These like certain drops. So if you're trying to like reach an audience that's more of Gen Alpha, like these drops moments in times are super relevant. So it's interesting how trends come and go. They're very generational also. And you got to get super focused in on that, that audience to kind of tap into it and to know that you know, things are just sort of changing and you have to do research constantly to try to understand what, what really is relevant to, to their world.

Britt Blankenship: Yeah. And you got to be brave to listen to what those kids want if uh, that's what your brand is tailored to, not what your C suite and a, uh, two generations away are comfortable with. And that's where we've got to have courage to be obsessed with your audience.

Blake Howard: We run into that quite a bit where in, especially on the visual side, uh, in the verbal side too. Cam, like in your work you have maybe an opinionated strong leader who is kind of the main decision maker and the, the dynamic is not, can we draw the prettiest picture that they like? That's not, that's not the exercise. The exercise isn't. Let's get them to, let's tap into what they just think looks good and let's create something for them because they're, they're the decision maker. The, the exercise is let's create something that will be the most radically relevant for the audience. That's really distinct but also like really speaks to them. And can we convince that opinionated leader that this is the right move for them? But making that jump sometimes is hard because people have opinions and we show them nice mockups and they either say like, yeah, I like that or they don't. And so helping kind of coach them through that process is really important. All right, so let's, let's jump into a couple other things. Um, so I've asked this Question. Also, uh, in, in this series of kind of inside the Studio, because I find this tension, if I'm really honest, running an agency, you feel this tension. And so I'm genuinely interested on how people manage this tension. And from the beginning, Matchstick, we've wanted to balance three things. We talk about this quite a bit. We want to do incredible work, we want to have a successful and sustainable business and we want to create an environment where creatives can really thrive in. It's a healthy culture. But to manage all of those things at once is pretty difficult because you can, you can just, you know, like crank out, work as fast as you can and have a more successful business, maybe not a sustainable one. Um, or you can you know, really lower the quality of work and sort of churn it out and, you know, maybe that helps you with the business side as well. Or you could just sit around and say, guys, let's spend the next four months working on one logo. And it's the most incredible creative environment ever. But, you know, that's not going to last very long because there's real financial implications of that. So for the two of you, what, what, how do you manage that tension of those kind of that three legged stool or those three pillars?

Cameron Liebrecht: Yeah, I think, um, for me, and this probably puts the most pressure on the business side. So sorry, founder Blake, um, but I think it's making space for things to breathe, right? Making sure that you have, ah, a day or two between finishing the deck and presenting the deck. Making sure that you maybe have a moment between projects or at least between toggling your brain from one project to another, to stop, reflect and think. You know, I think we have this tendency culturally to think of people a little bit like batteries. They have an energy level that we can run until it's too low, and when it's too low, we get to burn out. Um, but I think the real, the real key to that one is you also need to let people shut down so that they can make updates. Right. It's not just running your computer to zero, that's also closing it, uh, letting it, letting it make those changes so you can source new inspiration, so you can borrow something you learned from one project and bring it to a new opportunity. So you can take a look at the world around you. Whether that's going for a walk or reading a good book or watching a movie or just making small talk about some form of art or culture with your colleagues so you can bring that to the job the next day. I think that's what keeps the work fresh. I think that's what keeps people fresh and most importantly, that's what keeps work good. Uh, which is where we make a backup on the business side for that little bit of breathing room.

Britt Blankenship: Yeah, I like that, Cam. I think we do that well here. Um, this has become a landing place for creatives that come from more hustle, burnout culture agencies. I have found, you know, we've hired from world class agencies, although I think we are one too. And I find that people are thrilled with the work life balance, the, the rest days, the things that, you know, they can get by not working 60, 70 hour work weeks and going back to back working weekends. And I have friends that are at agencies that are used to going in on a Saturday. It's not something that match take expects. It's certainly something anybody could do if they were really passionate and wanted to, great. But it's just not part of our day to day culture. So I think a lot about giving that breathing room and thinking about the whole person. And I have found that when people, people stay here for a long time too, but when they do leave, I have heard over and over again, man, this place didn't just make me a better designer or project manager or whatever. It made me a better person. I felt cared about as a whole person here and poured into and grown, um, and considered in that way. I believe that, you know, I think about the amount of personal and professional growth that I've experienced here, but the value of that comes with a lot of intention and it comes with creative operations that support that. So not having a person switch tasks eight times in one day, maybe there's eight tasks to do in a week, but coaching them on the right way to stack those tasks and then supporting them in the ways that they want autonomy to do that, um, for their own job, their own role and their own project set.

Blake Howard: Yeah, I've always felt like the chaotic agency environment is a, not a, not a matter of creativity or a desire to just like create the most amazing thing ever like a mad scientist. It's actually a lack of organizational skills and a lack of process. And so I think about the creative process as you need guardrails, like guardrails on the interstate and that sort of hit, you know, keep you going in the right direction, but they're not hemming you into a single lane. You still have freedom and flexibility to move around and pivot as needed, but you need a little bit of structure, a little bit of guidance. And we've done what we do enough to know generally how long things take so that we can block and plan and manage client expectations so that we can consistently deliver great work in a way that's sustainable for our team and then also for, for the business. So I want to, I want to transition um, to something that's kind of related like efficiency wise and it's certainly a hot topic AI. Um, it's something that's here to stay. And I'm old enough to remember when desktop computers were sort of becoming the main thing in terms of like helping graphic designers with tools. So I'm not that old where I was like on a press at some point. But uh, like I remember the original Photoshop, you know, or QuarkXPress, uh, was like the first layout program I learned the InDesign predecessor. And there were some art directors and creative directors that I worked with initially that were, they were people that were used to like film layers and they would still do cut paper layouts. You know, it was like super awesome craft and they hated the desktop computer. And I sort of see AI as, as that also, you know, so it's interesting that it's become less and less divisive already in just a couple months, maybe a couple years. Um, but it's a force that's, that's here, that that's to stay, and it's changing our workflow. Um, and so I want to hear from the two of you, like, what is it? How are you using AI right now? Is it, is it all hype or is it actually like sneaking into your workflow? What is, what does that look like?

Britt Blankenship: I think that we talked a little bit about, um, care and like health when we answered your previous question, Blake. And another part of that is also challenge. As humans, we need to be challenged. The client timelines are going to challenge us. What's happening with the general market's going to challenge us. High client expectations. We're going to challenge each other internally. As a leader, there are times where I certainly challenge folks to get creative about something. Can you do that in half the time than you did on this project? This is necessary for this reason. And I think AI is a next big challenge that all of us are up against. We have to think about the right way to use it, um, the ways that it could hurt us, the ways that it can help us calibrate the right balance. What does it mean? Big picture, long term? I think it needs a lot of questioning and a lot of trying getting in and playing around with it. Um, so a few ways that we are using it now that I have enjoyed is I do use ChatGPT. I think it's very helpful to process. I'm kind of an external processor. Whether that's speaking or typing. I like thinking about that in our work as we were thinking about a lot of inputs and research and ideas. Having a place that can bring things together, expound on things, extrapolate things can be handy. And it also has a lot of visual uh, horsepower that can help us in areas where it can do something that's kind of magic that would have taken a lot of Photoshop work in the past. So creating that perfect mock up. We're art directing our mockups now because we can do that because we have, we have this you know, engine to, to help us. Um, so I think there's ways to get creative and do it initially and then the more that we grow our skills, the more we can kind uh, of get into it further and test the boundaries. Because this thing is evolving really quickly. It's evolving in ways that are, uh, there's a lot of glitches and a lot of things it's doing wrong that we need to be aware of. But it's also evolving, solving in ways that are exciting. So just continuing to test that is I think where me and the team probably are now.

Blake Howard: Cam, you, you have a little bit of a contrarian approach which is good, it's good. We, we should, we should debate things uh, like AI and generative, uh, AI and how they help or hurt. So what's your take on using any sort of AI in your workflow?

Cameron Liebrecht: I'm not anti generative AI for business, for work, um, but I don't use it very often, um, you know, early on and I check back in every so often because I know it changes pretty frequently. I wasn't happy with the output for my side of the house. Right. The messaging, creativity, defining a voice and tone, uh, finding a unique way to tell a particular story. It's really hard to coax nuance out

Blake Howard: of uh, an LLM.

Cameron Liebrecht: Uh, and that's something that you know, I found it easier for me to sort of beat my head against that wall myself so to speak, rather than, than punch it in and see what comes back, uh, or talk to another, another human about it who can really challenge my thinking. Uh, and so the, the best use for AI for me I think is sort of an enemy or a pacesetter. I know it's improving, I know it's getting better. I know it's becoming uh, more capable every Single day, which is a challenge for me and for my team as we strive to stay ahead of it. So thinking through what is AI able to do well, how can we improve upon it? Where are the spaces where there are still huge creative gaps that we can really push ahead and own, uh, until or unless AI catches up to that one day. So it's something to stay ahead of, something to stay on top of, for sure. I think one of the big challenges right now with LLMs is even with a lot of coaching, the output remains very similar because the inputs are shared across the board. And so we're already seeing distinction challenges being maybe the most common thing we're helping our clients solve for working with someone in the, in the B2B, uh, SaaS space right now. And when we do an audit, if you took away the logo and the color, you would not know who was who. Right. And I think AI right now has a tendency to push us messaging wise in that direction. And so to Blake's point, making sure that we're always pursuing distinction, that we're looking for an original take, is sort of the next version of the challenge that we're helping our clients through today. And so in some ways we've got the training wheels on, um, but we'll want to keep pushing forward as well.

Blake Howard: Well, let's end on a positive note. Let's talk about the future of just, just the industry of, of branding. Like, what are you most excited about in our industry right now?

Cameron Liebrecht: I think there is a light at the end of the tunnel for long copy. I think it's making a comeback. Uh, and maybe this doesn't mean we get full spread, um, print ads anymore, uh, or three, four paragraphs in length. There's probably no novel length advertisements coming back, especially because we're just reading less as a culture. But I'm seeing a new appreciation for words that I think got lost for a long time as we really shifted our focus to social. As we focused a little bit more as an industry and client decision makers on data points and things like conversion that are so far down the funnel, we lost touch with the emotional value of copy. So I'm excited to see a little bit of love coming back for long copy, for emotional expression, for things like brand narrative, uh, and less of a laser focus on what we would call those micro copy moments. Certainly still very important. Uh, but there is accounting again for the full funnel, which is. Man, that's refreshing, at least for me.

Britt Blankenship: When I first got into the industry, I felt like everybody was obsessed with Logos. And for years we were just trying to coach people that your brand is not just a logo, it's an entire system. In fact, your logo might tell like a fraction of the story and the story's more even in the system than that mark, where certainly it's all on the mark for, for some brands. But now I feel like we're having conversations much more broadly, which is very exciting when thinking about something like craft. What's your sonic brand? What's your motion language? What are you doing with your product UI language? What story is that telling? Is that actually distinct? Is that one ingredient of your brand distinctive? Because that might be the top ingredient of your brand that your audience engages with when they're thinking about buying from you. So I think about what the industry is and each industry has certain things I would say are real non negotiables and tackling those corners of the brand. And some people love to do a, uh, one and done full scope rebrand. It's a big initiative. But many of our clients are very smart in the sustainable way of updating their brands by tackling a corner here, a corner there and working with the right branding agency over time with that long view in mind to not do this drastic change, this splash rebrand, but to update things, um, you know, with the right synchronicity. So I think that makes a depth of work now that agencies like ours need to tackle and should be helping our, our, our clients with.

Blake Howard: It's sort of this like slow, slow boil of a rebrand. It's more of a refresh or it reminds me of the parable of a ship is sailing to the Americas and when it leaves it replaces one board at a time and by the time it gets all the way to the Americas, every board on the boat has been replaced. And then, you know, is it the same ship? So it's kind of like that, of like slowly evolving over time.

Britt Blankenship: Yes, but there's a right way to do that and there's an irresponsible way to do that. And I think that's need the right branding partner that will be honest with you and challenge you about, well, we might now want to replace that board first because that board affects all of these other boards. So we might actually need to start over here. And I know this is your goal and we're going to get there in three months maybe or in six months, not day one. But there's a way that people can do it that is not fruitful. And I think there's a way that's very strategic that. That can. That can take that process.

Blake Howard: Thank you so much for your time. This has been so fun. This is just like we hopped on another Zoom call to have a little chat, but we recorded it. So thank you for your commentary. Thanks for your input, and thanks for your time.

Britt Blankenship: Thanks for having me.

Cameron Liebrecht: Yeah, thanks for having us. It's great to be here.

Blake Howard: Okay, that's a wrap on today's special Inside the Studio bonus episode. Big shout out to Brit and Cam for joining me today. And be sure to follow along on Instagram at a change of brand during this off season as we figure out our plans for season seven. And if you have an idea for a show that you want to pitch, you can email us@podcastatchstick.com m a t c h s t I c.com or just send us a DM UM on Instagram. Today's episode was edited and scored by Adam Audio, produced by Brianna Belcher. Sarah Pepper designed this episode's artwork, and I'm your host, Blake Howard, signing off.