Why Your Pricing Strategy Is Killing Sales | 3 Pricing Mistakes Founders Always Make

Speaker A: I see founders mess, um, up a lot of stuff and it's totally not their fault because no one really talks about pricing or how you're supposed to set up your service packages or your offers. And what I mean by that is you're giving people so much value because you want them to feel like you are giving them great stuff for their money. But it's so good, there's no reason to ever upgrade.

Speaker B: How do you cater the value based pricing?

Speaker A: There's a ton of different ways to do this. None of the things that I teach and that I help founders do here is rocket science. It's just nobody has told you how it works before. In order to use value based pricing, you have to know what the value is.

Speaker B: If you have to choose, is it the pricing a financial tool or is it more like a strategic positioning tool?

Speaker A: It doesn't matter what the number is. If your pricing tiers suck. If customers do not understand what they're buying or why they should buy it, the number you put on the price tag doesn't really matter.

Speaker B: Hi, Carolyn. Welcome to the 10X Marketer podcast. Why don't you quickly introduce yourself and then let's get into the episode.

Speaker A: Hi, um, thanks for having me. I'm, um, really excited to be here. Uh, my name is Carolyn and I am a B2B pricing specialist and coach. Um, and what that means is I help founders, uh, convert more leads into customers, uh, help them justify higher price points and just boost revenue in general. And I do that by helping them usually create, um, a series of, I like to call them irresistible offers. So service packages, pricing tiers, whatever you want to call it that customers actually get. And if they get it, they're far more likely to want it. And if they want it, they're going to be far more likely to pay a premium price tag for it. Um, I've been an entrepreneur for about 15 years now, and I've worked with hundreds of B2B founders at this point across every single industry.

Speaker B: Understood. So as a pricing coach, you must have came across so many founders, so many pricing models. Let's start with some of the common mistakes that you have observed that most founders have when they are pricing their product or services.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really great question. Um, where to even begin? I see founders mess, um, up a lot of stuff, and it's totally not their fault because no one really talks about pricing or how you're supposed to set up your service packages or your offers or any of those things. So it's totally fine. If you feel like you don't know what you're doing on the pricing front because nobody feels like they know what they're doing. So the mistakes that I see people make, um, especially when it comes to having uh, different tiers or different offers is making your first tier too good. And what I mean by that is you're giving people so much value because you want them to feel like you are giving them great stuff for their money. But it's so good there's no reason to ever upgrade. There's no reason to get more because you're getting everything and then some in the first offer. Um, so ideally only about if you have let's say three um, packages that customers could choose from. The kind of like um, best ratio of, of how your customers should be spread is about 10 to 20%. That would buy your first introductory offer. You want about 60% to be in the middle tier and then the remaining kind of 10% depending on how the split of the other two should be in your highest tier. So those are the top two. And then if I had to pick a third is um, founders will kind of like group together a bunch of random features and there's no alignment around how those features come together to help customers solve a particular problem. So each tier, each package should have um, I call it a big win, a North Star. It should exist to help customers get a specific outcome. And when you define that it's so much easier to know what to include in those offers and it's so much easier to sell them because it's really clear for the customer, it's easy for them to get it. So I would say those are the top three things.

Speaker B: Understood. So let's um, create a follow up question on that. So you talked about North Star. You uh, talked about the pricing model that attracts the customer on the first um, value based product. I think most founders or especially the B2B SaaS companies, ah, they follow a very similar pattern. It's like 44, 49, 59, 69. And there's not much mind has been applied behind coming up that number. It is mostly the competitor that drives. So in your experience are there any deep research being done or it is just looking at your competitor page? They are doing it 59, let's do 49.

Speaker A: Uh, based on the conversations that I've had now with I don't know how many hundreds and hundreds of founders, whether they're B2B SaaS or B2B services, everybody is guessing. Um, I have yet to come across someone who has like an actual structured approach for how they've created their service packages or their SaaS pricing tiers and have come up with a number. Um, what this goes actually ties back to the first question. Um, it makes me think so, um, a lot of people will look to competitors and depending they'll either have the guts to say, well, ours is better than theirs, so we're going to price higher. But what I see far more often is they take the competitor price and they go lower with the idea that we're going to like steal some market share, we're going to steal some of their customers because we're cheaper. And what that does is like your price points are a signal of how good you are. So what happens is you basically educate any of those customers to come to you just for, because you're cheap, not because you're good. Um, so I see a lot of people putting their whole kind of financial existence hanging upon because everybody guesses, right. Your competitor guessed, I guarantee it. They have guessed. So now you're putting your financial livelihood on somebody else's crappy guess. So like, you don't know if they're profitable.

Speaker B: True.

Speaker A: Right. You don't know.

Speaker B: It's a chain of invalid M guesses.

Speaker A: Or maybe it's the blind leading the blind in, in many situations, which is really unfortunate.

Speaker B: Understood. So now let's talk about something that is very, uh, important and very crucial. Uh, in founder's mind, they have to. So most people I talk to, maybe you have a different experience. Most people I talk to, they have a balancing. Balancing act. The pricing is more like a balancing act between how much traction I can get in the market versus how much money I can make on selling a premium. So that's kind of a, uh, traction growth versus premium customer. So that kind of does not really have a right approach to it. And um, it continue becoming a confused, uh, mind.

Speaker A: Yeah, this is a really interesting one because for me it speaks to the idea of positioning and it depends on what your business goals are. So the way I think about it on the business schools front is just like nobody buys um, an ad for the super bowl just for the sake of, you know, spending all that money on an ad. You're buying that ad to get a business outcome. Right. Marketing supports sales. It's a lever to help you generate more sales. So I view pricing as very, very similar in that it's another lever you can pull to help you get a specific business outcome. So I think there's a lot of um, confusion sometimes with founders and this is where the positioning comes into play. If you want to be the cheapest, if you want to be the Walmart, that's totally cool, right? But it's a choice that you're making and everything else that you're doing, everything else, the customer experiences should kind of reinforce that choice that you've made. Right? You plant your flag in the sand being, I'm the cheapest one. So that's what should make sense for customers. But if you want to be a premium version and you want to offer really cheap prices, that kind of sends up a weird unconscious red flag in a lot of customers minds because if it's cheap, it can't be good. So if you want to. And the other thing, uh, when it comes to positioning and business outcomes, it's like if you are just entering the market, you're just starting out and you have like no testimonials, you have no credibility, you are fresh and you just want customers, you're going to make different pricing choices, right? Um, to get customers, you're probably going to price lower to kind of get some customers in the door, to get some proof, to build your credibility and eventually you could be a premium service offering. Right? So all of these choices kind of come together. So it really just depends, right? What do you want to achieve for your business? Um, whenever I work with someone, a new founder, one of the first questions we go through in our first session together is like, what is the business outcome you want to achieve in the next 12 months? How can we use your price points and your offers to help us get you there? So all of these ideas really come together because it is a tricky balance. Right? But you can't be high end, premium and cheap at the same time. Right. It sends up a red flag for customers.

Speaker B: Understood. So you can't be cheap and premium both. You have to either. Uh-huh, Understood.

Speaker A: So, and that's okay, you just pick one.

Speaker B: Yeah. Let's talk about something that is very, uh, important and comes with a copy. Uh, comes with the pricing that is the, uh, landing page copy and how you structure the features, outcomes. And mostly it is very, very confusing. Table what I've seen is, um, it's a full, uh, complete table. Half of things nobody understands. Somebody is getting that. This plus this, this plus this. So as a end user or as a customer who want to buy a SaaS product, so I also have a lot of subscriptions for my business, it is always confusing what you will get out of the package. X versus Y versus J. And uh, Then there's something called decoy pricing. I'm sure you know about it.

Speaker A: I'm very familiar with it. Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah, yes. So what are the right strategy to put that information out so that people can make an easy comparison between A plus B plus C and, uh, if there is a decoy product, what is the right way to place it? Where should it be placed? Or if it is, I miss.

Speaker A: Those are two huge questions. Okay, so, um, let's talk about the decoy. The decoy, um, is exactly as it sounds. So you could have two offers, for example, and you want to introduce a third, not for, like, the sake of having three, but to help nudge customers towards buying the one you would like them to buy. Okay. Um, that's what it does. So it's typically gonna be a terrible offer. It's gonna be an offer that people look at and go like. Like, are they crazy? Like, who would ever buy this? Okay, so you're not actually expecting, uh, decoys to really sell. Like, maybe, maybe someone will buy it. Um, but it's not the point. The point of introducing that third option is to help people decide between the other two. So there's a really great, um, example of this, and it's a little bit dated, but it's the Economist magazine. Way back in the day, they had the physical hard copy of the magazine, and I don't know what year this would be. Like maybe in the 90s, early 2000s, they brought in the digital version and they really wanted to sell more copies of the digital version. So they sold, I think, and I can't remember the number specifically, but it's like the subscription for the hard copy was about 60 bucks. And then they introduced, um, the hard copy plus the digital for maybe about 120 bucks. And the sales of the higher end option were like, I want to say in the teens, like, really, really low. So they were selling far more of just the straight up digital copy and very few of that combo offer. So what they did is they introduced a decoy, which was just the, um, I think just the digital copy for like a hundred and ten dollars. So it's like 60, 110, and for 120 you get the hard copy too. Uh, it may have even been the same price. Point being is that sales of the combo skyrocketed. Okay. Because people kind of didn't even notice the hard copy only anymore. They were just looking at the two similar price tags and thinking, well, that offer sucks. This one is like a way better deal. So they're deciding between those two, the decoy and the higher ticket item. And, and as a result of that I think it went from like in the teens to like 50 or 60% of those, um, now sold. So the decoy is a product you introduce, a deal, an offer you introduce that is terrible value for money, but it helps customers decide, nudge uh, them towards buying the product that you're really hoping that they will buy. That's that one. When it comes to pricing pages and that grid of features and functionality and whatever, sometimes you'll get this huge, huge laundry list of every single bell and whistle. No one is just going to confuse people. Um, so what I like to say to people when they ask for guidance on this is take the key features that comp or that your customers are looking for and make sure in all of the tiers it's side by side. So in tier one they don't get it, in tier two they do, but only this much. And then tier three, so it's that side by side comparison, but you really just, just focus on the most important stuff that, that customers are for sure going to be looking for and make it really easy for them to compare side by side which one they get with each of your offers because the second becomes overwhelming and confusing. They're gone.

Speaker B: Understood. So now, uh, one question that is intriguing me, uh, is that with help of AI now there's a lot of no code automation possible, especially people who are working in the SaaS industry, they may be facing this heat. So there's always a cheaper copy of what you're doing and maybe sometime with more features because somebody, uh, some college kid might have created it. Does that really affect uh, someone or maybe for someone to reduce their prices or. It's not something to be concerned about at all. Because when you're talking about market share.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: You're talking about market share, it becomes important. Right.

Speaker A: So is the question just to make sure I get it, um, that because now competitors are bring more and more people are using AI so it's reducing the cost at which someone can get the same outcome.

Speaker B: Yeah, maybe I'll repeat the question. It is like if, let's say you have a great SaaS product, it solves a very specific problem. Tomorrow a college kid um, just wakes up and decides to copy it with help of AI and it is much easier to do it um, than the earlier um, times. So how do you actually fight that market share that might be going to somebody who has created a like first copy of your product using AI?

Speaker A: Yeah. So That's a really interesting question. Um, what I would say or what I would do if I was in that boat is I would go back and look at what is my secret sauce, what is my differentiator that makes me unique and special in a way that customers care about and is difficult for competitors to replicate. Because if you have that right, that is, that's. Those are the kind of two key components of a real competitive advantage. I would go and start there, um, and I would look. So if, you know, if this new competitor that's popped up that has, is trying to copy me, right, and do it with AI, um, how does what they offer stack up in terms of what customers actually are looking for? What the, what outcomes do they want and how are they delivering it versus how am I delivering it? I see a lot of companies right now where the pendulum is actually swinging the other way, especially when it comes to customer service. Um, people want a human, right? And they're willing to pay a premium to not deal with a chatbot and to not deal with like, you know, email support. They're willing to pay a premium to actually get a phone number and be able to talk to a real life human. So I think AI is cool and there's lots of potential for it. But I, I think there's always a way, um, to go back to kind of those business foundations and figure out how you're different and find those things that you can do better than the competitors that customers actually really care about. It might be really difficult, but that's where I would, uh, kind of put my energy.

Speaker B: Understood. And sorry, uh, for drifting away from the regular, uh, that's okay.

Speaker A: These are really good questions.

Speaker B: Let's get back to the track. And now let me ask you, uh, another question that is very important for me as a founder. Uh, can you explain the importance of aligning your price with the customer journey? Let's say somebody just wants to try your product. You want to give them a special offer or something so that they at least end up experiencing the product versus somebody who is already in advanced journey and want to really get best outcome out of the product. How do you align your prices in a way that it is easy for both?

Speaker A: So what I, um, for me, every kind of pricing exercise, there are eight steps. Okay. Um, and for me, and this goes back to the North Star, um, kind of mini discussion we had earlier in that when the first step I go through with every client is we want to map the customer journey. Okay. And for me, the critical parts of that I Like, to think about, customers are in a really crappy boat, right? They have a problem, um, they're in a crappy boat. So. But why is the boat crappy? How is the boat crappy? And when you ask them, hey, if you could wave your magic wand and solve this problem, make it go away, they can tell you exactly what paradise island looks like, right? It's already in there. Customers can tell you in detail what they want life to be like as it relates to this problem. But there's something that is usually getting in the way that's preventing them from getting their own boat over to that magic Paradise Island. So once you kind of have, uh, an understanding of those things, you have a ton of clarity, first and foremost, on so many things in your business. But for me, that alignment of what you offer people and to ensure that it aligns with, with paradise island or the customer journey, this is how it kind of breaks down. Once you know what paradise island looks like, that's what people are paying for. They don't actually care about your features. They don't care about, like, the inner workings of how it's going to go. They just want the outcome. They want to be on paradise island, but what happens is Paradise. They're going to be different versions of paradise island for people. Some people, the, the, um, the metaphor, the analogy that I use often in describing this is if we pretend you're a swimming coach and you coach adults on how to swim, everybody's going to tell you that they want to swim, right? Paradise island, you can swim. You're not, uh, freaking out, uh, because you have anxiety around the water, you're scared of the water, and, uh, you want to be able to have fun, go to pool parties, get in the water, have a good time. That's what paradise island looks like for you. But if you actually talk to all the people who might be interested in taking lessons from you, some of them are going to be just super excited at the prospect of not drowning. And that's it. That's as far as they want to go, right? It's still a version of paradise island, but it's the first step. Let's just not drown. And then for a bunch of people, they're going to be like, not drowning. That's cool. That sounds good. But I was kind of hoping for more. I was kind of hoping to be able to swim from A to B. And then there's going to be a third version of paradise island where it's like, you've never swam a day in your Life. And today's the day you decided you want to be a swimming expert and you were going to go all in and you're going to throw a bunch of money at it. So once you know those kind of three versions of success and they align with the customer journey, you suddenly have a ton of clarity and you're not guessing randomly what to include in your service offers.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: It's whatever they need to get those outcomes understood.

Speaker B: So this is a perfect analogy and I really like the way you explained it. Thank you so much. Um, that makes no sense. Now let's talk about another important question that is, uh, I mean, part of it you've already answered and uh, part of it I want you to repeat again so that people who are listening understands it better. Um, how do you category value based pricing? So some part of it is already covered. Yeah, Journey.

Speaker A: So value based pricing is, um, a whole kind of subject unto itself. Um, so what it comes down to, so this is where I see people doing weird stuff and the knee jerk reaction to discount and that kind of thing is because they don't know what their service package, um, what their pricing tier is worth. Okay, so value based pricing, uh, in my head, how I kind of define it is you've put together your pricing tiers. Right? You've built your offers, your, your packages based on all the features and functionality a customer needs in order to achieve that outcome. Right. For each of those tiers as it aligns with that journey. Right. From the crappy boat to paradise island. Perfect. The next step is to figure out what those tiers are worth. And there's a ton of different ways to do this. None of the things that I teach and that I help founders do here is rocket science is just nobody has told you how it works before. So in order to use value based pricing, you have to know what the value is. So when I think about it, I use a very simple tool. It's a three column chart and I've used it with every single client. It doesn't matter what you're selling, it doesn't matter what vertical or industry you're in. It's a highly valuable tool. In the first tier, you're going to list all of the features. Okay? But again, nobody cares about your features. Customers care about what is in it for me. So for each of those features in the second column, you are going to turn it into an outcome or benefit of result for your customers. So if you, um, you know, centralize a ton of documents in one place, for example, the outcome For a customer, I would think is time savings, right? Maybe, um, you could argue it reduces risk in some way, shape or form because things aren't going to get lost. But what is in the third column, the measurable value? What is that time savings? If you save them an hour, a week, over the course of a month, over the course of a year, what is that hour savings going to be worth? Right? So it's a simply a simple multiplication of X number of hours times X number of dollars an hour that you would pay the person, um, on their team to do it, right? You save 10 hours a, ah, year and you pay them 100 bucks an hour, right? A thousand bucks. So once you know it's a thousand bucks worth of time that you're saving them, you can then say, okay, I'm delivering a thousand bucks worth of value to you. Now I have so much more confidence around how to pick a price point first and foremost, right? Because I know the value that I'm bringing to the table. For an organization of your size, right? That feature may deliver a thousand dollars of value to a small organization, but that same feature may deliver $10,000 worth of time savings for a larger organization. Point being is that if you know how to measure what it's worth, then you have so much more confidence to be able to pick a price point. And then in terms of picking a price point. So that's where the value based part comes in, is you understand the value and you're choosing a price point that is in alignment with the amount of value that you're delivering to pick a price point. There's a bunch of different frameworks, um, that I use and essentially it's some equations, it's um, a bit of an art, bit of a science. There are some equations you use that will help you kind of triangulate competitor pricing because obviously that plays a role, right? Who are you up against in your customer's brain when they're making these purchasing decisions? Um, risk, Are you a known quantity? Are you the new kid on the block or uh, do you have 20 years experience? Right? And then the amount of perceived value that we're bringing to the table that we can prove and justify. So those are the kinds of things that you would bring together in these formulas to be able to establish. I call it like a price hypothesis, a starting price point. And then we would have to validate, um, this. And there's a methodology behind how you validate your pricing model before you start unleashing it on brand, um, new customers. So, but Those are the kinds of the key steps is building your pricing tiers to help customers get that North Star to measure the value of what this tier is actually worth to an organization of this size. And then that last step is the triangulation of all those variables together.

Speaker B: So that's quite valuable input. Carolyn. I think so far we have been doing really good in this episode. People are going to like it, going to like it. And uh, I think you have been answering the questions very, very seriously and diligently.

Speaker A: So that's really serious stuff. No,

Speaker B: let's talk about something that is even more important. Uh, and um, I think you'll answer it even more seriously. That is how to structure your pricing when you have the product plus the service component also. So sometimes um, when the customer is paying, let's say for a, there might be certain component that is coming for free, some kind of support in setting up the product. So typical expectation is that if I'm buying something from you, you'll help me set up. You don't want an extra pricing for setting it up. Like that's, that's where the customer comes from. I should be ah, able to experience your product for free uh, rather than paying for services. Again I mean that, that's a typical mindset that I experienced. What is your viewpoint in having uh, this alignment overly. And then there are a lot of companies that do uh, have service component that is sold completely separately or maybe outsourced to some third party. So you will have service providers listed on a website. People can go to anyone and get the product up and running. How do we actually come up with the pricing performance? What kind of balancing act you have to do?

Speaker A: Yeah, um, this is another bit, another big question. Um, so this touches on a thing um, that it's essentially called pricing architecture. So it's, there's a series of different kind of buckets of fees that um, whether you're like a B2B SaaS provider or a service provider that you can kind of think about tapping into based on what it is you're selling and how you sell it. And the way I look at it, especially when there's a startup, um, like if we're talking about technology and we have to kind of get you set up on the platform in order for you to feel the magic of this platform right of this product. The way I kind of look at it is a, if that requires um, humans from, from my team, the company team to do things, there's labor, there's like a direct cost, usually a lot of people are willing to um, pay something for that because they understand there's a labor cost on your end tied to it. Sometimes that works. Other times it's better to kind of bundle it with the, the annual license or the annual fee. It just kind of depends. But where, uh, in terms of justifying a startup fee is that, what is the cost? I could let you onboard yourself, right? But it's going to probably take you a long time and let's be honest, you're probably going to screw it up, right? You're not. You just don't know all the bells and whistles and details, the nuances of the platform like someone on our team does. So we can let you onboard yourself. Um, it might take a lot longer. Um, there is an opportunity cost to not getting off on the right foot for both of you, for the company and how you know the value is being perceived and for the client in terms of how much time it actually takes them to like start feeling that magic that you promised. So one way to potentially justify this kind of onboarding cost is it's, it is the cost of getting you set up on the right to start on the right foot. Right. You are going to be able to hit the ground running, um, versus you are left to your own devices with the documentation and the how to videos to try to figure it out. Not everybody, because again, this is always an exercise. It's one. Pricing is one giant exercise in customer segmentation. Right. And willingness to pay. So maybe there will be some people who are absolutely, um, or like, nope, I don't want to pay anything extra. I'm going to onboard myself. It will probably be not be the best experience. And then they're going to be people who recognize the fact that uh, I can fast track this onboarding process and start getting to the good stuff for like, I don't know, a couple hundred bucks, whatever it is. Um, so that's in my experience, it depends on the company and what they're selling obviously. But startup fees and getting people set up on the right foot has high, high value. Right? Especially in the B2B space.

Speaker B: Now this one quick question and then one more bigger question for you, then maybe we'll end the episode because we're already in this for around um, 40 minutes. I didn't realize that. First thing is if you have to choose, is it the pricing a financial tool or is it more like a strategic positioning? How do you put, where do you put pricing?

Speaker A: That is a really good question. I think it's more of a Strategy and positioning tool. Because what I have seen is that, like, a lot of founders will come to me, they built their tiers, they built their technology. If they're a SaaS company, and they go, oh, I think our prices are weird. And I'm like, I mean, yes, they are, but that's not. Like, it doesn't matter what the number is. If your pricing tiers suck. If customers do not understand what they're buying or why they should buy it, the number you put on the price tag doesn't really matter.

Speaker B: True.

Speaker A: Right. That you've already lost the sale. The beauty of it is when you set up your, uh, series of pricing tiers or service packages, whatever you want to call them, if it's done well, that is the thing that makes you money. That is the thing that justifies a higher price tag. And it also makes your offers easier to sell, which lowers your customer acquisition costs, and it keeps customers. Customers longer. Right. Because they're not questioning, like, uh, why am I paying for this? Like, what is this? I don't even know what this is. Right. And they turn, they leave. So when you've streamlined and reduced all of the buying friction from your offers, that is the thing that makes you money. If they want it. If they get it and they want it, they will find the money. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah, true. Now, let's talk about something that is very close to your heart. I want you to explain the process that you follow in helping founders coming up with an offer that is really worth their effort.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Um, this is. Yeah, this is what I do all day long. So there are eight steps every single time. And, uh, so I have a training online that takes founders through, uh, these eight steps. And the idea is that we, um, we start with the boat and the island. Right. Like we talked about before. Because if we understand the boat, but especially the island, everything else gets so much easier. Right. You're no longer guessing and winging it and pulling things out of thin air. Like, you actually know what to say. Right? Because, you know, they want Paradise Island. So, like, let's test out messaging around these aspects of Paradise Island. Um, you know how you would take paradise island now and figure out, what are those kind of three versions of success? What are those three versions of paradise island where we start out with, like, just a taste. We just. We just want to not drown. Right. Versus we want to be able to do a front crawl, swim A to B. And then the third version, which is like, I haven't swam a day in my life, but I'VE decided I want to be an expert. Right. How do we do that? Once we have our North Star, we're going to use that to figure out what should we include in terms of features and functionality to help them get that North Star. Okay. That's how we know what to include. Once we know what to include, we can start to begin that conversation of, um, what is this worth? Right. We can measure the quantifiable. Right. Outcomes that they get as a result of getting access to all that features and functionality. Okay. There's another step in between there where we talk about how you charge. So if people, um. And the, the kind of little story I use to illustrate that is, if you wanted five photocopies and you walk into, um, a photocopy shop and the guy next to you wants a thousand copies, and the people behind the desk say, hey, cool, it's going to be 12.99amonth or 150 bucks a year. You're like, I just want five photocopies. Like, what? So, like myself and the guy next to me, we're not going to buy it because, uh, how you're charging us doesn't make any sense, right? Relative to the value that we want. And if we were to kind of like rewind and try again and say, oh, it's a flat fee of a thousand bucks. I'm not going to pay a thousand bucks for five photocopies for the guy next to me who wants a thousand photocopies. Maybe a buck a copy is something that he's, he's ready to pay for. But you're not getting my business, right? How I'm being charged does not line up with the value I'm getting and how much value I'm getting. And then if we were to kind of rewind and play it out again, if I get charged $0.50 per copy, then we're both probably going to say yes to going ahead with the purchase because how you're charging me aligns with how I feel the value. So how you charge customers, right? And it could be you charge, um, a monthly retainer, and that's totally cool, right? As long as that is how customers feel the magic and they're used to paying for it in that way. And then the last steps, once we've kind of built our tiers, we've measured what they're worth is we would pick and again triangulate, using these formulas, a price point, and then we would go through all of the steps to validate it. So validate all the functions, uh, functionality and features that you've included to make sure the offer is good. We would validate that how you charge makes sense to the customer. And then we would validate price points. Right. And we would do that before you start going to talk to new people so that you can go and launch your new product, your new service, with absolute confidence. Right. And when you have that you know what it's worth, the instinct to discount suddenly evaporates because you know what it's worth. So that's kind of a high level look at the eight steps, but it's the same steps every time. Um, and that is where you get the confidence to justify higher price tags and customers will buy removing all that buying friction.

Speaker B: Understood. And so let's end the episode with this fantastic answer. Thank you so much, Carolyn, for joining me today. It was really an insightful chat, but I think I, uh, am left with few more questions. Maybe next episode we will cover that.

Speaker A: I have that effect on people. Yeah, okay.

Speaker B: There are a lot of questions that I have in mind, but I don't want to ask all of them right now. Maybe we'll do another episode very soon. Thank you so much for joining me today. And, um, thank you so much, guys for listening to us so far. Make sure you subscribe to the 10X Marketer podcast before you leave. And, um, thank you so much, Caroline, once again for joining me today.

Speaker A: Thank you for having me. Likewise.