A Different Law Firm Model: Up Front Pricing and Billing. | New Solo

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Speaker B: Your credibility, your reputation is everything.

Speaker A: What does it really take to thrive as a woman in law? If we're working in workplaces that don't respect that, I think that's where you vote with your feet. Find out from Supreme Court justices, law school deans, coaches, and fellow trial attorneys on heels in the courtroom. The key to good lawyering and good advocacy is knowing what those facts are and being prepared to present them in a way that is honest and puts that fact in full context.

Speaker B: I mean, this is not a hot take, but that cross examination is an

Speaker A: example of what not to do. This production of Simon Law is found on the Legal Talk Network and wherever you get your best podcasts.

Speaker B: Foreign.

Speaker A: Welcome M. To another episode of new Solo on Legal Talk Network. We're going to do things a little differently today. We're not going to talk about legal technology. We're going to talk about Philly cheesesteaks. This guest is here today because he is the source, the one who's gonna finally tell me where I can go. And I don't know, maybe it's not actually all of Pennsylvania, maybe this is like literally a Philadelphia thing. But I just need to know where in the greater Philadelphia area I need to go for the best Philly Cheesesteak. Hi John Rafferty.

Speaker B: Hi Adrianna. Thanks so much for having me.

Speaker A: M. Well, I've been looking for you because down here in Florida and in Louisiana they have Philly cheesesteaks. But they're not. I know they're not. And my now husband, I don't know if this is breaking news for the rest of my listeners, but I have a husband now. I know it's crazy. We have talked a lot about coming to Philadelphia or Pennsylvania. I don't care where it is to get the best Philly cheesesteak. Please tell me where that is. I'm ready with my pen.

Speaker B: When you come to Philadelphia for the best Philly cheesesteak, you don't want to focus on the big name places with the flashy lights with the long lines where the tourists go for their tourist version of the Philly cheesesteak. Instead, you want to think about decade long trends of Italian immigrants coming to Philadelphia and slowly as they gain some economic mobility, moving out of the city and into the suburbs. And so if you go into the suburbs, like the main line of Philadelphia, Bryn Mawr, Wayne, Devon Berwyn, and look for a random hole in the wall. Italian restaurant. It can't be a chain. And if it's a chain, you're already lost. Hole in the wall, Family owned Italian restaurant. And ask for a cheesesteak. Nothing else. You will have the best cheesesteak of your life.

Speaker A: That's all I needed to know. This is like when people ask me where to eat in New Orleans. Um, I'm like, just go to the gas station and ask for the fried chicken. Yeah, that's it. You don't go into the French Quarter for fried chicken. Well, thank you.

Speaker B: You're welcome.

Speaker A: So, in all seriousness, John Rafferty, you're a lawyer, and we're gonna talk about your law practice today. But I'm so glad we got this out of the way. Tell everybody what you do, where you live, a little bit about your practice.

Speaker B: I have the real privilege of running a law firm in the Philadelphia suburbs focused on resolving disputes around inheritances and guardianships, what some states might call conservatorships. And we do that on a flat fee basis, which is pretty unique for, uh, our geography. And I think in litigation generally. I became doggedly committed to switching from billable hour to flat fee billing after reading Shawn Jardine's book, Ditch the Billable Hour. And that was a few months before I left my previous firm. And so I went into this transition and this move and the shift away from my old firm already with the, uh, knowledge that this was something I had to do because it was better for the client, it was better for the firm, and better for the firm's experience with and relationship with the client. And so really, at that point, the question became how to do it. And fortunately, learning the how was not nearly as challenging as being convinced that this was the right thing to do. And I'm so grateful that I had that vision going into the setup of this firm. I'm also so lucky to be married to my best friend Sarah, and the two of us have a dog and a cat in our home here, here in the Philly suburbs.

Speaker A: I'd love to know the name of your dog and your cat, please.

Speaker B: The cat is orange, and so his name is Tigger, and he is the owner of the house. And he doesn't address my wife and I as mom or dad just by our first names. Um, our dog, on the other hand, uh, her name is Tally. She's a lab hound mix. And Tally loves to bark at the Amazon. Man or woman?

Speaker A: Yes. That's her job.

Speaker B: And Tally does call us mom or Dad.

Speaker A: I don't think I've ever really talked on this podcast about my immense love of animals. I can't have animals right now because we travel so much, and it's hard. I'll talk about that in another podcast.

Speaker B: Amazing.

Speaker A: John, you're a solo practitioner.

Speaker B: I am.

Speaker A: And we're gonna talk about how you shifted to flat fee billing. And do you practice at home or do you have an office or both?

Speaker B: I have an office, thanks to my wife. I wanted to save money and practice out of the upstairs spare bedroom. And she said, honey, you're used to working in town. You're used to having an office. When you leave your firm, don't change everything. Stay in town, stay within office, have some consistency. And that was the best advice I could have heard.

Speaker A: So you left a bigger firm to go out on your own?

Speaker B: I did. It was about 30 attorneys. And, uh, I was there for eight years. I was one of the eight owners of the firm. And I realized that owning a business with seven other people is very challenging, and making business decisions without many other people is very challenging. As I was getting more and more specialized in inheritance disputes and guardianship disputes, I really wanted to just focus a firm on that. I also saw a hole in the market in my county in Pennsylvania. There's no one just litigating that. There's literally no firm that only litigates those topics.

Speaker A: There is now.

Speaker B: There is now. And, uh, you really. You have to drive about 45 minutes to find the next firm that does that. So, um, I was delighted to start a firm focused on that. I think the eight and a half years that I had at my larger firm, I wouldn't trade it for the world. It was such good training and experience, and I needed those years.

Speaker A: And you are not that far. Like, you're not out in the country. You're not out in the hills of Philadelphia.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: I guess what I'm trying to get at is you're just outside of town in a pretty big city where there's plenty of attorneys, uh, almost like kind of the home of the legal profession in the United States, you know, maybe the backyard. And there wasn't an attorney doing what you wanted to do that you felt you had to nudge out of the market. And it was just there for the taking.

Speaker B: It was amazing. Those firms tend to be, like, 20, 25 minutes from the city. They want to be closer to downtown, and I think they want some of that business from there. And I said, hey, you know, we're an hour away. We're in our own county. It's Chester. Um, there's no other firm that just focuses on this fiduciary litigation. Executors, powers of attorney, guardianships, holding, um, people to that fiduciary duty they agree

Speaker A: to uphold, it seems to me. And help me know, because I know because my mom had to see her fiduciary attorney in person, she wouldn't have it done any other way. Do you see a lot of your clients in person, or has it really become more. So you were going to work from home, so it sounds like that was gonna work out just fine, but then you ended up with an office, and you're in this area where maybe it is a little more comfortable for people to drive around and drive up and pull up. So is that an important part of your practice is being able to see them in person, or are you still good with zoom and video?

Speaker B: You know, it's only about 10 or 15% of my clients or even my meetings in a monthly basis that happen face to face. And when that happens, I'm more than happy, you know, for someone to come in. But I always give my clients the choice to tell me if they wanna meet zoom phone or face to face. And I do what they want. I follow, and almost always they choose a remote option.

Speaker A: I love hearing that most of your clients still want to meet over zoom because even when you are out in a more urban area and maybe traffic isn't a problem, they still don't want to bother to get in a car to do what they can do face to face just as easily. And tell me about your staff.

Speaker B: We have a paralegal who is five hours a day, moving to six and eight hours by the end of the year. She graduated paralegal school, um, nine months ago and is the most talented paralegal I've ever gotten a chance to work with in my life.

Speaker A: Oh, that's amazing.

Speaker B: She is amazing and has, um, incredible attention to detail. She's incredibly professional, and she catches things all the time that I miss and brings them to my attention in just the kindest and most respectful way.

Speaker A: Sounds like a wonderful human. Those are always good to have around. And when did you start your firm? I should have asked you that. When did you leave the other firm and launch Highland Law?

Speaker B: Sure. Um, started Highfield Law on March 31st. That's okay. I started Highfield Law on March 31st of 2020. And when I did, I had only one, uh, helper who was a daughter of a friend in the community. And I said, would your daughter be interested in doing some remote admin work? Basically I have a bunch of uh, engagement letters and transition letters to send to clients. And so can you help me generate like 40 transition letters to ask clients if they want to stay at the old firm or move to the new firm with me? And um, they were helpful at helping me do that. And um, that person has stayed on as a remote admin assistant for about 10 hours a week since then. And we've also cycled through a couple of different interns um, just in the last year and a half. And my two summer interns in summer of 26 both asked if they could stay on part time. And so they're both, um, one finished college and one is in college and they're both part time still remotely.

Speaker A: Oh, that's great. Well, sounds like you've got good, good working environment, good technology and good people. I just want to want you to take us back to the beginning a little bit. So I call you up now, I'm coming to your living room if the cat allows me. And I'm going to say, John, I want to switch to flat fee Bill. Where do I even start? What are my considerations? Like what's my first two or three steps? Is it my technology? Is it defining what I want to offer as value based or give me just a beginner? I'm going to start with step A.

Speaker B: I think step A is thinking about if there's a segment of your legal practice that you are familiar enough with of what it costs that you could make some informed decisions from that data. Ideally you would have it, uh, written down and recorded and you would crunch the data and you would say, when I do X kind of case, it generally costs me $6,000. And I think if you can start there, that's like a really good place to sort of segment. Okay, I'm going to start in this lane and then if that's successful, I'm going to duplicate that lane to all my other lanes.

Speaker A: So, listeners, for years I have said, if you're using a practice management system and you create a category for the case, what type of case is this? Is it litigation? Is it real estate? Is it family law? At the end of the year you're gonna get a report based on that practice area, all the practice areas, and then you can look and see what are my most Profitable areas. Where are the areas where, uh, they're not so profitable. And, oh, look at that. That's also where I waste the most amount of time. And you have to combine that data with your actual experience and knowledge. And so for all of you who like to tell me I don't need to, um, I do contingency based or this or that. And you don't like to really break down the way you practice law because you don't think that information is helpful or it's all in your head. This is a great example of how that information eventually becomes helpful. And then if you can make it more granular, where maybe you are only practicing one area, but you're also breaking down, uh, the tasks or the work that you do, then that data can be helpful. And this is one of the things that the robots are good at.

Speaker B: Yes. And can I just add to that, with your practice management software, particularly like in Clio, you don't just have to live with the standard case categories that they give you out of the box. You can customize them and you can have plaintiff dash specific case type. Plaintiff dash other case type.

Speaker A: Yeah. The world is your oyster over here, people. Okay, so having an idea of that information and then deciding to go to Step B, what's step B look like?

Speaker B: Step B is what Mr. Jardine likes to refer to as value based billing, requiring courage, not a calculator. Because it's not enough to say X kind of case usually costs our firm $6,000. The real question is, what is the value I am delivering to the client through this engagement? And so if there is a roadblock holding up a merger and acquisition Monday morning before the company goes public on Tuesday, that's not a $6,000 piece of work. Right. No matter what it is, it's worth more than that. And so you need to be thinking about what's the value of the overall work A, and then B, what is the market generally? What would the market pay or tolerate, uh, for this work? And both of those things are considerations in addition to what does it cost my firm? And so for something that might be ordinarily $6,000, you might say, well, the market would tolerate 8. And actually, I'm delivering value that's commensurate with 20 or $30,000. So I'm going to charge 8 or maybe 8 and a half, um, for this piece of work. And it's up to the client. They can say, no, thanks. They can say, that's too high and go to the person down the street. But they might say, to have that ceiling and to know what my max exposure is, I'll pay eight and a half.

Speaker A: I was just gonna ask you, do they ever come back and go, mm, um, can you do seven?

Speaker B: They do, yeah.

Speaker A: And then what do you do?

Speaker B: You have a backbone and you say, there are a lot of firms in this town that do really good work and I would love to make an introduction to you, to any of them. Cause they're great, but they don't charge what we charge.

Speaker A: Oh, that's awesome. You know, it's kind of like you don't walk into Louis Vuitton and, ah, ask for a discount.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: And I don't. I'm not. I would because I can't afford a Louis Vuitton. But I'm just saying, you know, there's value that's been already socially accepted for luxury items like that, and you don't walk in and ask for a discount. And I think a lot of lawyers really need to consider again, your superhero powers, which is there's experience here. And it's way more than just these bulleted items that become part of this rate. It's my experience, my knowledge, my relationships, and I think it's so hard to put a value on that that you really have to, like you said, have a backbone. And, um, say lots of other lawyers will do it for that much. And I bet you none of them actually ever ask you for that introduction.

Speaker B: They usually don't. They usually don't. Um, but I mean, uh, lawyers have to not be afraid to say no. It's why I'm kind of working on a book in the background called Don't Hire Me about why people think they need to hire a lawyer, particularly litigators, and probably don't and shouldn't and should save their money. But I think we need to tell clients no.

Speaker A: Yeah. And this also sounds like a great time to take a break and listen to some messages from our, uh, sponsors.

Speaker B: Conrad, where are we headed?

Speaker A: I don't know, man. I'm just driving.

Speaker B: Does your law firm's growth plan feel like you're just driving? You know what they say, guy. Uh, if you don't know where you want to go, you'll never get there. So if you're feeling lost out there while the world of legal marketing rapidly shifts around you, set your destination for Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Because every week we navigate the latest

Speaker A: news in the legal industry and help

Speaker B: you drive your law firm towards success. Find Lunch Hour Legal Marketing on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your Favorite podcast app. Your credibility, your reputation is everything.

Speaker A: What does it really take to thrive as a woman in law? If we're working in workplaces that don't respect that, I think that's where you vote with your feet. Find out from Supreme Court justices, law school deans, coaches, and fellow trial attorneys on heels in the courtroom. The key to good lawyering and good advocacy is knowing what those facts are and being prepared to present them in a way that is honest and puts that fact in full context.

Speaker B: I mean, this is not a hot take, but that cross examination is an

Speaker A: example of what not to do. This production of Simon Law is found on the Legal Topic Talk network and wherever you get your best podcasts. All right, I'm back with John Rafferty from Highfield Law. So, John, you and I talked a, uh, year and a half or so ago, and then, coincidentally, my good friend Liz McCausland from Florida, she and I were chatting one day and she said, you know, you should have John Rafferty back on your podcast because he showed up at one of our coffee talks. And I said, john Rafferty from the great state of Philly Cheesesteaks? And she says, yeah. And I said, did he move to Florida? She said, no, he showed up at one of our coffee talks. So, John, can you sort of explain to listeners what that means and that's how you ended up here?

Speaker B: Absolutely. And I have to thank the new solo podcast for this tidbit, because as I was thinking about going out on my own, I thought the best source of information was listening to every single published new solo episode. And so I might have done that. And, uh, in the course of that,

Speaker A: I heard, by the way, I am, I'm honored for that, and I really appreciate that. And it's because of all the wonderful guests that we have, so we should thank them, too.

Speaker B: Like a graduate degree. It was like a graduate degree in learning how to start your own law firm. It was amazing.

Speaker A: I love it.

Speaker B: It was such a gift. And, um, in the process of that, you had interviewed Liz McCausland from Florida, and she talked about how there was a subsection of the Florida Bar association, the solo and small firm. Solo small firm section that has these monthly coffee chats. And at first I was like, oh, that's sad. They're, you know, in person. And then she said, over zoom. And my ears kind of perked up. And, uh, it just sounded like they were having the most interesting conversations in those chats. And her conversation with you was so fascinating. And she just seemed like Such a delightful human. And so I looked her up and I emailed her and I said, is there any chance, even though I'm in Pennsylvania, I could join these Florida chats? She was like, well, it's only for members of the Florida Bar solo and small firm section. So I was like, hold that thought. And then I emailed the solo and small firm section of the Florida Bar, and I was like, how do I become a member? And they said, you can become a member for a $45 out of state membership fee.

Speaker A: So I was like, here's the no brainer. You're like, I'll pay twice.

Speaker B: Yeah. I was like, here's my $45, and now could I have the zoom link? And then they sent me the zoom link. And then Liz said she didn't mind me showing up for the next year and a half. And I, oh, my God, such amazing interactions with everyone in that group for, I don't know, 15 months.

Speaker A: That's amazing. Oh, my gosh. All right, so you learned a lot. I did. Was that part of your education and thinking and going to flat fee billing? Or did all this research on going on on your own lead you to think I'm going to do flat fee billing? Or did you say, I'm going to go out on my own and I'm going to do flat? Like, did the chicken or the egg come first?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think the egg came before the chicken, so I'll try to unpack that. I was also listening to not as much as new Solo, but this other podcast maybe called the Unbelievable Hour, and good one too. They had a guest on named Shaun S H A U N Jardine. He's a British litigator and he wrote a book called Ditch the Billable Hour. And he is an amazing human. He's kind, he's generous, he's thoughtful, he's strategic. And he is on a mission to help litigators and attorneys. I mean, all attorneys ditch the billable hour and switch to flat fee billing on the theory that it's more fair to the client so the client's not surprised by invoices. It's better for the firm because you're not chasing ar. And if you do it right, you get all the dollars up front and it's a better relationship with you and the client because you know exactly what you're going to be doing for the dollars that are sitting in your trust account. And so that just made a lot of sense to me. I read his book, just like Liz, I emailed him. I Complimented him on his book. He was like, flattered. And we stayed in touch. And then he said, by the way, um, I think I actually asked him, I said, would you be interested in like a one on one mentorship over zoom? And he said, how about one on one mentorship in my dining room here in the uk?

Speaker A: You're like, hold on, that's me fake clicking my keyboard as you're looking up flights.

Speaker B: Totally. I started looking at flights immediately and I said, I'll come to your. And he said, we have an Airbnb on our property. You can stay there for two nights.

Speaker A: Who is this superhero?

Speaker B: He's amazing. He's absolutely amazing. And so I was, um, so thrilled to be able to have that one on one with him and really go deep about how to build out value based billing. Ah, flat fee billing at my firm. I'd already started doing it before that meeting, but that really cemented it. And at this point, uh, we have a few, um, pieces of work that we do where we're hired by the court, which has to be hourly. But apart from that, we're flat fee all the way, giving people a very specific scope of what we're going to do and then charging them appropriately for that scope. The transition to becoming a flat fee firm was gradual. It started with a handful of cases, which grew to about half our cases, and then grew to the majority of our cases within about a nine month time frame. And I think that experimenting early on is important with a, uh, you know, very discreet case type, and then expanding that as you grow more and more confident with a practice is a great way to develop and have your whole practice become one based in flat fees. At the time of the transition, I had just one paralegal and she was very supportive of the idea. Fortunately, she was fresh out of paralegal school and so she didn't have strong opinions in the other direction. But Sean Jardine, he asked if he could have a sort of training course through a platform he was developing with firm staff. And so my paralegal actually enrolled in training that he provided to better understand flat fee billing from the perspective of law firm staff.

Speaker A: Do you remember those commercials? I think they were beer commercials a while ago about whoever invented such and such. I salute you. Okay, well, I still use that all the time. Like whenever I have to expand my suitcase, I'm always like, I don't know who thought of this, but I salute you. I, um, want to salute. And if you're out there in the world or you know who this person is who moved the term flat fee billing to value based billing. I salute you because that is a brilliant marketing term. And honestly, it's more honest. Because really, you know, I always tell the attorney I live with that he has a superpower, and being a lawyer is a superpower. And everyone wants it, which is why everyone's always like, can I ask Henry a legal question? I'm like, yes. He's, you know, it's okay. You can ask him. He's not going to send you a bill. I mean, he might, but. So the truth is that value based billing, there's something behind that, and it does so that you must put that in your marketing. You don't say flat fee billing.

Speaker B: You know what? I think I save flat fee billing.

Speaker A: Hold on. Now you're going to hear John doing a find and replace on his website.

Speaker B: That is the find and replace that I might do. But let me just say this. It's more important to me that clients understand than that it sounds shiny and flashy. And so I think value based billing sounds nicer in some ways, but flat fee is more immediately understandable and distinguished from what they're used to of the hourly treadmill. And so I don't know that I will change it. Um, you know, the hourly hourly versus flat fee is sort of an easy thing to capture. But I do like the phrase value based billing because it reminds me that what we're doing when we enter that engagement with a client is explaining to them how we will add value to their case and to their life. I mean, when I'm writing out that scope of services, because you have to scope well and tightly for this to work. But when I'm running out that scope, it's like every bullet point is, here's the value I'm adding. Here's the value. Here's another piece of value. Here's another piece of value.

Speaker A: I think I'm gonna have to call up Guy and Conrad John and have them have you and me on as guests on the Lunch Hour legal marketing podcast to talk about how we are redefining flat fee billing. And there might be even better words than value based billing, like superhero based billing.

Speaker B: I would love to stumble upon those phrases with you.

Speaker A: That'd be fun. We'll bring Claude.

Speaker B: Oh, there you go. There you go.

Speaker A: I know it's driving everybody crazy that I went with ABC instead of 1, 2, 3. It's actually driving me crazy, and I don't know why I did that. But we're gonna stick with it because now I Need consistency on this podcast. Subsea.

Speaker B: So you know the area of law, you know about what it costs, you know what the market would bear, what it could tolerate. And. And you say the price, or you're thinking of the price, maybe eight and a half thousand. Now you have to scope it. It's not enough to tell the client, oh, I'll do what we talked about for eight and a half. That doesn't work because what we talked about over the phone just now, six months from now, it's going to be totally different in your mind and the client's mind. And so what you do is after you get all that information from that consult, is you think through the 14 ways you could add value to the client's life, the 14 things you could do during the representation. And you say, Dear Mr. Or Ms. Client, if you'd like to engage my firm, we will do the following 14 things in this case. And as a result of doing those things, we'll charge you the flat fee of this. And the most that flat fee could ever change is by 10% if something extraordinary happens. And we'll tell you way before the end of representation if there's a 10% shift. But barring that, this is your ceiling and clients are really receptive to that. But scoping that and being specific about what you're going to do is that Step D I think we're at.

Speaker A: Okay, I love Step D. Do you

Speaker B: want to know step B?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay. Step B is my favorite.

Speaker A: Wait.

Speaker B: D. Step D. If you'd like to work with our firm and you'd like to take advantage of this flat fee, all the funds are due up front. And so please pop a check in the mail, and as soon as it arrives, I will let you know that I've received it and we'll start the engagement. And, um, that way we won't have to have any further conversations during this representation about what you might lower firm.

Speaker A: Yeah. That's amazing. I hope that my audio engineer drops a hammer sound down when you said, get the money up front.

Speaker B: All the funds are due up front. And can I tell you two consequences of that, please?

Speaker A: This is D1 and D2.

Speaker B: Okay. D1 is that you never chase AR. There is no such thing as outstanding money that someone owes you. It just doesn't exist.

Speaker A: Amazing what a life doesn't exist.

Speaker B: Now. D2 is less happy. D2 is. Sometimes you get to the end of the case and you've tracked your time because you're John Rafferty and you're really, you know, diligent about, like, what kind uh, of, what's my data? And you say, oh, look, I put in $10,200 worth of time and I charge the client 8,500. I'm going to eat a little bit. But you know what? I did that last night for three different cases. I was in here, like, running my time, generating invoices, writing off balances. And for every one, I thought to myself, even though, like, bigger balances, I was like, this is better than chasing ar.

Speaker A: Sure, of course.

Speaker B: And better than having an unpaid bill 100%.

Speaker A: And you're also learning. So now the next case that comes along like this, you're just going to shift your fee.

Speaker B: Yeah. And D3 is the most exciting part. D3.

Speaker A: I love D3.

Speaker B: D3 is, huh, that if you do it well, more often than not, not every time, but more often than not, there's a bigger flat fee than what your time cost you because you learned how to be efficient. And so that $9,000 engagement actually took you $6,000 worth of time. And that last 3,000 is just profit. Looking back on my practice at my old law firm versus my practice here, I've had the most financially successful year in my entire career since leaving that firm. And that's not because my expenses are low. That's gross revenue. That's the top line is higher than it's ever been. And I believe that that's because of flat fee billing and that driving motivation to handle cases more efficiently that flat fee billing incentivizes. And so I'm just so grateful for having implemented that and grateful for the ways that that's benefited the firm.

Speaker A: As a result, we're going to take a quick break, listen to some messages from some sponsors, and then we're going to dive a little deeper into how John is doing his value based superhero billing. We'll be right back. Lawyers podcast is your go to for practical, no nonsense advice on how to run a healthy law firm.

Speaker B: Listen weekly for expert insights from legal pros, productivity experts, and top authors like Donald Miller, Jeff woods, and Dr. Temple Grandin.

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Speaker B: Start listening today@Lawyers.com podcast. Conrad, where are we headed?

Speaker A: I don't know, man. I'm just driving.

Speaker B: Does your law firm's growth plan feel like you're just driving? You know what they say, guy. Uh, if you don't know where you want to go, you'll never get there. So if you're feeling lost out there, there, while the world of legal marketing rapidly shifts around you, set your destination for Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Because every week we navigate the latest

Speaker A: news in the legal industry and help

Speaker B: you drive your law firm towards success. Find Lunch Hour Legal marketing on, um, Spotify, Apple podcasts, or your favorite podcast.

Speaker A: Appreciate. Okay, I'm back with John Rafferty from Highfield Law. John, you bought a law domain. I love those. Tell me about it.

Speaker B: When I chose the name of the firm, there were four things that went into that consideration. And the fourth item that I considered was, is the domain readily available? And after Highfield Law looked like the right move, I first checked to see if I could get the domain. The dot com wasn't available, but the dot law was. And the issue answered itself.

Speaker A: Oh, perfect. And do you find that people ask you dot long?

Speaker B: They do sometimes I get some people confused and, you know, even when I say it out loud, people still try to send it to the dot com. I think that's happening less and less. And so, um, I've not had too many communication issues with folks trying to send me emails or visit the website. Mostly I just love being able to tell people, you know, if I'm ever saying it out loud, Highfield Law, it's easy.

Speaker A: I love that. I've always told attorneys that, you know, the dot law isn't common and it's kind of new, but I think it gives you an opportunity to engage a little bit. Like, it's a little bit of an icebreaker. You go, dot law. Yeah, it's dot law. It's new and only lawyers can have it. And it's actually not that new anymore. I keep saying, oh, it's new, but I think it's been like 10 years. But I don't feel like there are enough attorneys that are using it.

Speaker B: I agree with you, M. I don't know why more lawyers don't you have

Speaker A: to be a lawyer to buy one? Come on, guys, get out there, because they're going to start getting taken.

Speaker B: Can I just say the same thing? I don't know if other states have professional corporations, but the same thing is true of, like, a PC. And so Highfield Law is a PC. And I just feel like in a world where you have an opportunity to be an LLC or a PC, like, be a PC, not everybody can. There's like, a few businesses that can be a PC.

Speaker A: All right, tell me a little bit about your technology Setup.

Speaker B: We use OneDrive. We use Outlook. I let staff use whatever computer is more comfortable for them. Mac or PC. I'm not going to force on anyone. Fortunately, all, you know, those products work across everything. We use Kuo, which was called OpenPhone for our phone system. We don't have like a Ringcentral. Um, I love everything that Quo offers. What else do we use? Zoom? Uh, I don't use teams. I'm just not crazy about it and practice management. Oh, Clio. Um, you actually convinced me mostly to use Clio. Um, you talked about it so often on the podcast and had so many guests who praised it. I really spent some time looking into it, as well as Smokeball, as well as Carrot, as well as some others I'm not thinking of. And, uh, tried demos with all of them and was really impressed with the just ease, ease of navigation with, uh, Clio. And so far that plus their customer service has been amazing. I went to Clio Con last fall and I'm going to Clio Con again this fall because it was so darn educational.

Speaker A: Oh, I love that. I'll be there, hopefully. And, um, are you taking advantage of all the AI tools they have built into it?

Speaker B: They might stop sponsoring your podcast, but I've yet to be impressed with the AI tools in Clio.

Speaker A: It's fair. That's fair. Are you using any AI?

Speaker B: I use a paid clawed team account for the firm and I usually keep it on like 4.8 with a extra setting which will be outdated 6 months from now. But I am extremely impressed by what can be obtained with very careful and intentional prompting.

Speaker A: Can you give us a couple of examples?

Speaker B: Sure. Um, and this is actually an outside the firm example, but there was a piece of real property in Maine near where my wife and I like to vacation that caught my attention, uh, on a Zillow alert that I may have had set up. And it caught my attention because it was extremely inexpensive and it was right on the water. And I was like, why?

Speaker A: Why?

Speaker B: So I called the realtor and I said, you're going to tell me why. And the realtor had so. So answers for me.

Speaker A: We're not satisfied.

Speaker B: So I stuck Claude on it and I put Claude on the setting where it first goes to municipal websites and searches those websites for the meeting minutes and then gives you summaries of the meeting minutes and checks 452 other sources before giving you an answer. And it just nailed it. Like, unbelievable due diligence report. It was like 17 pages long and heavily cited.

Speaker A: And, uh, are we property owners in Maine now?

Speaker B: Claude's conclusion and mine, after reviewing it Was you'd have to thread a very careful needle to not tear down the completely messed up structure that's there that got messed up from storms. You're actually not allowed to remove it, but you'd have to renovate it by like, you know, improving it halfway. And there's all these regulations about your. About what you have to do. So anyway, we're not.

Speaker A: Sounds like the cat would not approve this financial purchase.

Speaker B: The cat would not approve.

Speaker A: It's going to be a no. Okay. That's awesome. What else do we need to button up this conversation with? We've gotten down to D3. Um, are there any other important things to consider?

Speaker B: I just want to come back to this bit about courage.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that.

Speaker B: I think that there's so many scary things about flat fee billing. I don't know where this is going to go. I don't know the directions this could take. And I guess there's two things that I would say about those spheres. Um, one is that if you're really good at your craft, you should know most of the directions it can take.

Speaker A: Hm.

Speaker B: If you really are guiding them. As an expert, I see the twists and turns that this could take. And then you can scope it appropriately and say, Mr. And Mrs. Client, this might go crazy. And because it might go crazy, here's a big number. That's your flat fee. And then the second thing is you could scope in phases. And this is something that, uh, Sean Jardine talks about in his book, where you say, phase one is the demand letter and the drafting of a complaint, and phase two is discovery. And phase three is this. And each phase has its own flat fee. So again, the client has that wonderful experience of like, this is my ceiling for this phase of litigation. And so if you sort of scope out what you know and maybe leave till the next phase, those things that you don't, and you're clear with the client that you're doing it in that manner and that there's some knowns and there's some unknowns. We find that clients have a pretty good reception to that. So I just encourage people to, like, sit with themselves, map this out, put it in an outline and recognize that it doesn't have to be perfect on day one. It takes a little bit of courage, but it's absolutely worth it in the end.

Speaker A: I think it takes all courage because the numbers are. They speak for themselves. And of course they're mutable. They're not stuck. But I think the hard part is the courage. But also educating your clients about why this is better. My friend Jon Stewart from the Florida bar, if you've been listening to this podcast for a long time, always says that he'd love to switch to flat fee billing, but his clients don't want it because it doesn't make them comfortable. And most clients, if you give them the choice, but they don't have the understanding of why this is better for them or why it could be better, then they're just gonna pick a billable hour because now they, quote, know what they're paying for. So I think not only do you have to, you know, gum up the courage, but I think you better have a pretty good pitch that's pretty convincing so that at the end of the conversation the client goes, gosh, I can't believe every lawyer doesn't do it this way.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. You know, and also just it makes the client relationship so much better to remove any conversations about replenishing the retainer or getting that invoice paid.

Speaker A: Just so much better because they're already probably pretty emotional sometimes there's enough going on and then they're like, God damn lawyer. Another bill. Gah. And it just takes that away. Well, John Rafferty, you are awesome. I can't thank you enough for coming on New Solo.

Speaker B: Thank you for doing this podcast.

Speaker A: Tell everybody where they can find, friend or follow you.

Speaker B: You can find me in the Philadelphia suburbs eating a cheesesteak at a small Italian restaurant that doesn't have a name. You could visit our website at Highfield Law. Easy to find, easy to say. And please drop me a line. Johnighfield. Uh, lol J O H N. If you have any questions, comments, and want to rage at me about value based billing, I'd, uh, be happy to answer any questions or comments.

Speaker A: Thank you, John. Can't tell you how much our listeners appreciate your time and your honesty and here sage advice.

Speaker B: Well, I can't tell you how much I appreciate everything that you're doing with New Solo and how this podcast has been just a tremendous gift and joy in my life this past year and a half. So thank you.

Speaker A: Thanks, John. Thanks everyone for listening to another episode of New Solo. I've been running from 9 to 5 been biting my tongue for all this time Won't let anyone cut me short I was thinking this was the way to go and you put up your puppet show I say cheers to life Just leave me alone I'm on your show I'm telling you it's my time to rise up live the life I'm prouder no, you better go home. I'm telling you, it's my time to

Speaker B: rise up, live the life I'm proud.

Speaker A: Yeah, M the views expressed by participants and sponsors of this program are their own and do not necessarily reflect the positions of their employers, Legal Talk Network Infotrack, or their respective employees or associates. Content provided in this podcast is for general informational and educational purposes only and may not be accurate, complete, or up to date. This program does not constitute legal, financial, or tax advice. Do not act or refrain from acting upon this information without first consulting a licensed attorney or other qualified professional.