Unexpected Harmony: From Musician to GovCon Innovator | Jennifer Hanks

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Asset that can support a thriving life. I believe this and I'm committed to making this a reality for every entrepreneur and business owner who listens to this podcast. The Women Thriving in Business podcast was created with you in mind. Whether you're thinking about entrepreneurship or you're a business veteran, this podcast has inspiration, information and advice you can use to thrive in business. Women Thriving in Business podcast features candid, unscripted conversations with entrepreneurs, business experts, authors and academics who can contribute to your business success. I talk with leaders who have built thriving organizations and who are willing to share the positive and challenging realities of, um, the entrepreneurial journey. My name is Nikki Rogers, transformation strategist and the host of the Women Thriving in Business podcast. I work with leaders to develop the mindset, strategies and relationships necessary to thrive in business. Join me and your fellow thrivers each week on this journey of discovery and success.

Speaker C: Welcome, thrivers, to this week's episode of Women Thriving in Business podcast. My guest this week is Jennifer Hanks, who is the CEO of uh, MMC Consulting and also the co founder of uh Fed Propel Institute. Welcome, Jennifer.

Speaker A: Thank you. How's it going, Nikki?

Speaker C: It's going great. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today. We connected a long time ago pre pandemic. I'm always like in the before times and so I'm just excited to reconnect now and share with the world all the great things that you are doing.

Speaker A: Well, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity and look forward to our discussion.

Speaker C: So let's just get right into it. So first of all, Jennifer, tell us about your business and then tell us kind of your origin story. What got you started in govcon?

Speaker A: So, MMC Consulting. We're an international management consulting firm. We specialize primarily in supporting the acquisition function through the areas of staff augmentation for contracting officers and contract specialists, as well as program management and workforce development. So we help to manage the programs of different requirements as well as to provide training and support to the workforce. Doing the job on the government side. And this all came about because long time ago, I decided to step into the government. I applied for a job literally in the newspaper that just said, fax your resume here. And I was just like, okay, I need a job. I'm living with my mother after college and just want my privacy again and my freedom. So we're going to do this. And it was a government contractor that needed support on a protest. And I was like, I have no idea what govcon is. I have no idea what a protest Is. But if you trust me, I will figure this out so quickly onboarded to that program. It was so long ago, I, um, honestly it was all a blur. Because if you know about protests, it's quite a lengthy process. Lots of paperwork, details, research, all of that. And I was just enamored with the field of GovCon and all of the different facets of it. And having a background in music, that's what my degree was in. I was just like, uh, I never really thought I was going to continue on this music path full time. And so it really just opened my eyes to what is possible as a profession. I had considered entertainment law and just didn't have my heart in it. And I said, this is probably the next best thing. I get to look at contracts all day and if I feel like, you know, I still want to play in that legal realm, then I'll go to law school later.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Ended up enjoying more the business aspect of federal contracting. And from there I just started working for different large and small government contractors. I learned about the GSA schedule, so I was consulting companies on how to, um, get their schedule in place. From there I went to working for IT service providers and product service providers as well. And so that was just like, wow, I'm administering these contracts for things I just never thought that I would have my hands on. And just the learning curve, while it was steep, I just really enjoyed everything that I was learning and doing. The different types of people that I was connecting with and engaging with. From there I said, I still need some development. You know, the people I'm working with are extremely busy. Let me not lean too much on them. And I was introduced to the National Contract Management association. And from there I started looking at different local chapters to see where would it be a good fit for me. And I connected with the NCMA Tysons chapter in Tysons, Virginia. And they said, hey, we need a secretary. And I was like, I hate taking notes. However, if this is my entry point to getting a mentor into learning more about federal contracting, I'm all in. So I served as secretary for three years and improved my note taking skills, obviously. But what also helped was that, uh, I was the secretary for this association and this board of directors of people that had spent 25 plus years in federal contracting at these large firms. Senior government professionals, they had all this experience and they just opened their hearts to me and just said, whatever you need, let us know. A lot of those individuals are still mentors and friends today and they've guided me on my career. Path along the way. And I had one mentor that said, hey, if you really want to do well in federal contracting, you need to go work for the government. Like, how can you manage federal contracts? But you've never managed it on the federal side. And when I was going through NCMA's leadership development program, one of my cohort friends said, hey, they're having this. We were at a conference, a national conference, and they were doing on site interviews and USAID was one of them. And I interviewed and I got the job. And that was that moment really allowed me to expand my horizons in terms of one, the biggest question I had when I worked for industry, just why does everything take so long? And when I got to the government, I was like, as a contract specialist, I was like, whoa, there's all this paperwork, all this documentation that goes into making sure that the process is fair. That competition, that's the height of everything around federal contracting is making sure there's adequate competition and making sure that you're validating that process along the way, doing your due diligence. That's where I found a lot of the value in terms of the government's really making sure that they are executing appropriately in a fair manner to make sure that the government's getting the best value at the end of the day. And I really gained a new respect for all of the work that our federal contracting officers were doing on the other side. I didn't know having been on the other side. And so that led me into the realm of federal consulting. And one of the things that a lot of our clients really appreciate is the fact that I understood both sides and I didn't know how valuable that was until I started having conversations with people and they're like, you really get this. You understand what our challenges are with working with the government, but you also understand the process and the task, and that helps them fill certain gaps that they just didn't have knowledge to. And so from there, I went back to industry and realized that industry has its challenges in terms of women, uh, and promoting them within the workforce. And I just didn't see that the value I provided to some of our clients was valued internally from some of the organizations that I supported. And I said, you know what? I know what my bill rate is. I'm confident in my capabilities, my technical skills, and I know that I'm going to deliver because I always have. And from there, I decided to start MMC Consulting. And so this is where we are today.

Speaker C: Okay, well, Jennifer, that's quite a story. I Think that's very. And like you said, you haven't done this in industry, gone inside, been in government, and then come out and start your own business. So I just love that you were able to take each one of your experiences and continue to build on them, and then that brought you to here today. Right. So as you were thinking about starting mmc, what were some of your fears as you were stepping out on your own?

Speaker A: So the day I tendered my resignation was also the same day that I, uh, was headed to an ultrasound appointment. And I was in such. I was so excited in that moment to know I'm about to really take on this challenge and go build this business. And I was like, I'm, um, going to send this thing off, go to my ultrasound appointment, and everything's going to be amazing. Right? Boy, was I wrong. When I got to the ultrasound appointment, because we knew we were pregnant and expecting, the doctors were like, why did they only give us 30 minutes for this appointment? You need an hour for twins? I was like, what? What are you talking about? Me and my husband are looking at him like, what's going on here? And he's like, oh, you didn't know? I'm like, absolutely not. I was expecting one. That's what I budgeted for. That's why I said I just entered my resignation. Like, what are we talking about here? Like, everything was, like, blinking green in my head, like dollar signs, and we're in the middle of COVID It was just crazy. It was a crazy.

Speaker C: Oh, my goodness.

Speaker A: And I was just like, what are we gonna do? And we just laughed hysterically for, like, 15 minutes in the office because we were like, what in the world are we gonna do? Like, I was just like, all right. God, you've got something going on. I don't know what in the world you've got up your sleeve, but we're gonna trust we're still gonna do this. We're not going back. Even though I wanted to kind of stretch and hit recall on that message. But there was a blessing in it, because the company that I was working for said, hey, you're working on this project. You're doing a great job. We'd love to have you remain on board as a subcontractor. And so it was not only super helpful from a financial standpoint, but it was also a compliment to the work and the support that I had provided to that client. And so going from just, like, all the excitement to the fear of, can I do this right? Like, imposter syndrome is real. And it's like, as confident as we can be, there are going to be those moments where you doubt yourself and you're just like, do I have all the resources? How am I going to get these contracts during COVID And I'm at some point facing the fact I'm going to have to stop working, like with twins. And that was actually the case. I did have a high risk pregnancy one because I was just a little older. I didn't feel old. But just carrying twins and the things that went along with that pregnancy was a bit challenging. And the project that I was working was challenging and it was stressful. And I just said I have to put myself and my family first. And I had to step away from that contract actually. So jumping into the business 100% because you know, if you want to be a part of the eight program, you have to be full time in the business. And so that was our plan. And that plan, that plan quickly changed. But we did pivot and we started doing commercial contracting and we took on commercial clients that provided a little bit more flexibility, a different environment in terms of the pace of things. It was more self managed as opposed to you've got all these tight deadlines of client requests on the government side. And so that really benefited us in that sense and really required us to think differently. Our, uh, strategy changed as well during that time. And so it just, you really leaned into some of the strengths that you maybe hadn't used before because you had to hustle. You weren't able to go and meet with anyone in person. You had to do everything virtually. You hope they read your email and actually follow up with you. Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't. And uh, we just kept pushing through. And I will say we were steadfast in terms of we're going to get this done, like we're not going anywhere, we're not going backwards. And I think when push came to shove, it was just like leaning in on your relationships and just being honest and being transparent with people like, hey, this is the current environment, this is our value proposition, this is how we can help your organization. These are innovative ways of how we think about things and not just taking for granted the fact that there's these requirements out there and we're going to go do them just like everybody else. I knew that was not going to get us in a position to win. And that was one of the things that I struggled with because I said having been a contracting officer, I really know this stuff, right? Or at least I thought I Did until I got to being a small business owner, I didn't understand the full environment of, uh, the policy aspects, the business infrastructure aspects. Those are all things. I didn't have an mba, Remember, I have a music degree. So I was just like, whoa, I gotta get an accounting system. Which was fine, but, like, who's managing that accounting system? HR systems, recruiting, all of those things, Marketing, all of those things. I was just like, yeah, I didn't do that as a CEO, right? So, um, I did the contracting really well, but all those other things somebody else did, and now all these things I had to learn really quickly if I wanted to differentiate our business. And one of the things that when we started writing proposals, I was like, anybody can do acquisition support. There's tons of companies that do that. There's lots of people that can do it well. But what makes us different and figuring out what our value proposition was, was really key to kind of turning the corner and showcasing our ability to deliver just in a little bit different way in terms of leaning in on the talent, leaning in on our ability to execute both conus and oconus. My ability, my experience, training and working overseas and doing contracting overseas, that showcased just a different way to connect with people, a different way to adapt certain types of environments. And I played up on some of those skill sets when we started responding to proposals and just showcasing that. We've got the technical, but we have all these other skill sets that we can bring to your organization to capitalize on and provide additional value internally. Because we know, you know, you have contracts to manage, but you also have teams to manage. And we wanted to bring that full component to. We're going to manage your services and requirements, but we're also going to make sure that we're looking at the people, how can we support the people and what resources do we have internally that can benefit the workforce? And so, um, taking a holistic approach to going beyond the requirements and letting them know we have all these other capabilities and we have this network in this ecosystem that we're creating. My involvement with NCMA has been critical in terms of expanding the access to resources to the workforce. And so those are things that we try to share and provide value to our clients in terms of we want to make sure you have access to not just us, but to our network. And we extend our network, we extend our resources and make that part of our full suite of services and our overall value proposition.

Speaker C: And so one of the things that you talked about of you, at the same time you're Building a business. You're cultivating two babies at this point, right?

Speaker A: Three.

Speaker C: Well, you got to three. But, like, you know. Oh, oh, I did not. I. Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Literally, like, you have now expanded, tripled the number of children in your house. Okay. And you're starting this business, and you also work with your husband. Right. Can you talk a bit about how you got through that period of time? Right. And, like, intact. You're in the midst of COVID You're starting a new business. You now know twins are coming, and you had to pivot kind of your business model a bit. Can you talk a bit about how you were able to get a handle on all the things that were happening at that time, Prioritize, and then really stay sane and married and all the children are still alive. How, uh, did you manage through that process, Us?

Speaker A: Girl, I will tell you, it was the grace of God, Covid, where I asked my husband during that time for. It was just like, hey, I need you to join me in this journey

Speaker C: to build this business.

Speaker A: Because he has. He's run a business before, and so he was gracious enough to trust me on this and step away from his to help build mmc. And so I didn't take that for granted. Maybe I did a little bit in the beginning, but he went to Chicago Booth School of Business. He is my numbers guy, and he's my strategy guy and everything else that you need in a business partner. He is one of the most thoughtful people I know. We would not be here without his knowledge and just creativeness behind the scenes. And also just I was billable when I was pregnant with the twins. And after I had them, I didn't have the traditional maternity leave. So I'm literally working, feeding, typing, doing zooms with babies in my lap or next to me, because we couldn't get our family always to come and help us out because of COVID And our parents were at risk as well. So we took it pretty seriously. We didn't want anybody to be impacted from a health standpoint. And so while we were fortunate enough to have a lot of help with our first, when it was the twins, it wasn't possible. So it was a lot of leaning on each other. And, you know, when we came out of COVID we heard stories about, yeah, we got divorced. And, ah, it really hit me. I was like, we don't even have time to think about each other or think about ourselves. We were so focused on taking care of these three kids that could not take care of themselves. Right. And that was really Our first priority was the kids and making sure they were healthy, they weren't impacted. Also, just from a mental standpoint, like, we used to rush to the car and, like, race each other. Hey, who's going to the store? Because that was our sanity to just break out of the house. And I joke with my husband, like, hey, why does it take three hours to go to the Target? That's like a mile away. But I did the same thing because it was just like, that was your time away to. You're working from home, you've got your kids in your home, you're working with your husband in your home. Fortunately, our offices are on separate floors, but, uh, it was challenging. But again, our priority was the kids. The business came second, and we had to work because, again, being billable, we just needed to make sure the bills were paid. At the end of the day, can we keep our health insurance? Because having twins is expensive otherwise. And food, formula, all of that stuff was just like, we only expected for one, and then finally it was like daycare for three. None of that stuff was planned for. And so you just, you made it work. And when I talk about, like, being creative, we had a great support system for those that could help us. And we just had faith, like, at the end of the day, that's like, God, please help us. I have no idea how we're going to do this, but we're going to do it. And we're just going to trust and believe that we're going to get to the other side of things. And I think that's what's required in GovCon. Whether you have a situation similar to ours, not planning necessarily for the unexpected, but even in your business, there's going to be things that don't go as planned. And in that moment, how are you going to respond? Right? And we just had an attitude of, we're doing this, we have the ability to do it. Do we have the fortitude? Sometimes you would question that. But we were determined. We said that we were on the same page in terms of what we want for ourselves, for our family, for the business. And that stayed at the top in the forefront of our minds in terms of, all right, we got to pivot, we got to figure this out. We're bidding on this. Like, hey, who can we team with to kind of streamline the proposal process? Because you're writing proposals and all of those things. It was just. It was a lot, but it was. It's those things that just make you stronger, more resilient, and you just Gain a new respect for yourself and for your partner and for your team. Because we do have a strong team that supports us as well. And so just trying to keep it together and also be aware of what your team members are going through and thinking about the challenges that they're having. And so it was just a, ah, real mindset shift that we were not. I don't think a lot of us were prepared for during COVID and I think it just made us stronger and better and gave us a lot of lessons learned and best practices for going forward.

Speaker C: When you think about as you were building the team, you're billable. And I think this is a question a lot of people getting into govcon have around. What do you do first? Right. So did you start building a team of bench members? Did you bring in team members to help with the business development and those processes or admin support? Or were you only looking for billable folks to begin with? Where did you start? Did you start with going after all the proposals that you thought you could win and then bringing in team members, or did you have team members kind of waiting in the wings? And how did you go through that process of, yeah, figuring out like what's first, what's second? As you were in the beginning stages of the business.

Speaker A: So we really focused on one, we take a step back. We did all of our business development and leaned a lot on the relationships. Where do we know people that might be able to support us and help us get up to speed? You learn about the agency, you identify who your target agencies are. And I, uh, made a mistake, honestly, having worked with usaid, I was just like, uh, it's so difficult to get in. I wasn't having the success that I wanted initially. And we had a contract with the usaid. That was really why I stepped away from working full time because I had this contract. And so when I did tender my resignation from the company that we had then two contracts, so it was, that was really good. But I found it really challenging in terms of the types of requirements that USAID had. And they weren't necessarily. There weren't a lot of requirements for an organization of our size to compete on. And so it's like, okay, well can I work with some of the larger partners? And that was challenging as well. And I'm like, I've been at the agency for years, I've worked with some of you guys. And it was just, it wasn't the experience that I expected. And so I was just like, uh, all right, let me go look at these other agencies where I have experience or have relationships, it was still challenging. And we just had to kind of reset and say, we've heard all of the advice around, go with where you have the strongest relationships. And so that led us back to usaid. And fortunate enough, we ended up getting our first prime contract this year with usaid. And thank you. And it was just like the opportunity came about and I was like, we're going after this. I told my husband, I was like, if we don't get this because it was for acquisition support and that's our sweet spot, right? Just, like, I'm going to be devastated. So when we got the email, I was just like, all right, I can relax now. I feel like I've accomplished something. And I was just so proud of the team's effort. But it's tough work. But, yeah, back to building out the team, you want to have billable people because that's what's really going to pay the bills and reduce your overhead costs. And we relied on interns and consultants, and then to the extent that we could do certain things, we didn't. We did as much as we could to keep the cost down and just try to be creative. But we had some great interns. We partnered with the University of Maryland, and they were just so creative, and they worked with each other and pushed themselves to the limits. And I think they grew from that experience as well. And so it opened our eyes to what types of talent do you need? What will get the job done? What talent is going to take you to the next level? And what talent is also going to help pay the bills and grow the revenue and the profit margins and things like that. And so there wasn't necessarily a one size fits all approach, because you're building your business based on the opportunities that are available. I will say, over the last year and a half, we've been building our own opportunities and networking and connecting with agencies and saying, we understand that you're trying to go in this direction. Let us help you build a team, let us help you build this ecosystem. And, uh, while that takes a little bit longer, we're hoping in the long run it will pay off. Because it's government says, give us these innovative ways to be more efficient and to do business better. And so that's one thing that we're really passionate about doing, is having worked in government, I had a particular experience and I said, if I'm going to go back to industry, I want to make sure that I can impact and improve some of those Things and not just kind of just keep things status quo. And so that's what I really love about being in business for myself, is that I get to make those opportunities. And to the extent I can sell someone on an idea, uh, around that, that's really the pot of gold that we're looking to hit. And so there's a few things that we're working on in that manner. And I hope that we are successful in that journey because I think we can definitely do the professional services and anyone can do that. But can you really create that change that's going to impact the organization on a much larger scale than their day to day services? And that's the type of impact that I want MMC to have on some of the organizations that we work with, whether it's commercial or federal.

Speaker C: As you think about your vision for the future, what would you say are your top one or two challenges that you're kind of facing at this moment?

Speaker A: I would just say scaling in terms of, um, the type of work that we do, you need a certain type of professional. And in the acquisition arena, there's just a shortage of great talent. There's some really good talent out there. There's just not enough of them. And so one of the big projects that um, I'm hoping to put some effort into over the next year or two is to help build out that next generation of the acquisition workforce. They are critical to the execution of government, all things government. And our business needs them, the government needs them, and where are we going to get them from? Right, so we know that about 50% of the workforce is within five or fewer years of retirement age. And it's going to really impact our business. If the government's short, we're short because we're giving that talent back to them and we want to make sure that we have equality. So we're focused on building out our training platform so that we can, as we bring people on, whether they're college graduates, we can train them up and help them transition to government. One of the risks is that government might onboard them. From our team, we're quite aware of that challenge. But at the end of the day, if we can play a role in that and build that relationship with the government where they're just like, you did a great job, we need them on our side. All right, let's go find some more. And so we want to create that pipeline of a new workforce that's passionate about contracting, that's passionate about the work of government and the impact and just making Those improvements, we want to be a part of that.

Speaker C: I love that. That you're able to actually create the solution to your challenge. Right.

Speaker A: I gotta win a few more contracts to pay for that, because government's not gonna pay me for it, but. Or at least I'm, um. No one has said that they will yet, but that is one of the things that when I leave this business, that I want to have played a role in that and in terms of making sure that the government is going to continue to have these great contracts. You know, we were at a conference on Monday, and the keynote was talking about. People ask me why I have a bottle of water with me. And he's like. When I think about it, he's like, somebody had to write a contract for me to get water. And everything that we had, there was a contract. And he talked about how the acquisition workforce is really like, they're invisible professionals in some regard, because they're not always at that the actual point of transaction. And they do some amazing work. They support some amazing projects and programs to support our national security efforts. And I want to make sure that we're continuing to grow the workforce and produce great talent so that we're getting exactly what we need, because we all benefit from that as citizens.

Speaker C: Right? Yeah, you're exactly right. As you m. Think about your time in business, what accomplishment are you most proud of?

Speaker A: We're still here. So honest, when you think about the statistics of, um, women in business and just small businesses in general, we weren't supposed to still be here.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: So we're still in business. I don't take that for granted. Any day that we're working, I am blessed. This is a life I never envisioned for myself, and it doesn't come without its challenges. But I truly appreciate the fact that some organization has entrusted us to help them grow, and they're helping us grow at the same time.

Speaker C: Yeah, I echo that. Like, every day, you wake up and you're like, I get to choose to do this. Right. Because I think being in business, I always tell people, entrepreneurship will make you meet yourself, meaning the good, the bad. In some cases, you might be the worst employee you've ever had because you can identify where your limits are. Right. And then that's when you bring team members in. But I say it's still a good day because I'm out here. I'm out here doing what I choose to do.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker C: So talk to the audience about the Fed Propel Institute and your vision for that.

Speaker A: So I will be honest. The vision behind the Fed Propel Institute is with my husband. We have played, I have supported him 100% through it. I'll give a little bit of background because this is his baby. And the Fed Propel Institute came about because when I was president of the Tysons chapter, ncma, one of the key leadership members asked us, hey, how can we help small businesses? And we presented them with a solution. And I think it was during a change in the administration. And so nothing really came of it. But the more we thought about it, we just said small businesses need training. And not just the training to say, here's a worksheet, go fill it out and go be great, but like real support in terms of providing that technical assistance, but then also taking it a step further to actually help them execute. So it's not enough to say you need an accounting system. We all know that. Is there a certain type of chart of accounts that I need to support my accounting system to do business with the federal government? Let us help them be more aware, educated about the requirements of doing business with the federal government. There were so many things that were not shared with me about what was actually needed for the infrastructure of our business. And I was like, we need to share this information, like, why are we making it so hard for people to be successful? And everything does not have to be a secret. Yes, we're going to compete, but we don't have to compete all the time on everything, right? Let's just support our fellow business owner and help them grow. Because our economy thrives off of small businesses like they are the heartbeat of, um, our economic engine. And so to the extent we can help them be successful instead of really leading them to failure by not helping them is what we challenged ourselves to do. And so the Fed Propel Institute is a training program that focuses on women, veteran and minority owned small businesses. And we help them, um, through providing technical assistance, but also the consulting and coaching support. It's currently a 12 module program and each module focuses on a different component of building a business infrastructure that will help you lead to building a sustainable business. There's some organizations that will say, yes, we'll help you win a $10,000 contract. And I'm like, that's great, but how many of those do you need to sustain your business operations, right? And how long does it take you to get those $10,000 contracts? So how can we help you, uh, better prepare and better compete for larger opportunities that are going to help you actually sustain your business over time. And so we say our vision is to help 10,000 small businesses secure $10 billion in federal contracts in 10 years. And the foundation of that was based on the President's memorandum that said they wanted to take small disadvantages from 5% to 15%. So you can't do that. Just doing what we're doing today, that's a huge jump, right? I think we're at around 11%. It's likely not going to happen by 2025, but we can still do it. And we think that if we can support these small businesses, providing them with the tools, the access to the resources that they need to build out that infrastructure, that's really the passion that we have. And so we partnered with the National Contract Management Association. We had our, uh, pilot that graduated over a year ago now. And so we're building out the next cohort and building partnerships to fully fund the program. While we can do the technical assistance, there is a cost aspect and we want to make sure that it's reasonable. But we want to provide them with access to quality government contracting SMEs that are going to get them exactly where they need to go. And we know that we can't do it by ourselves. We're running mmc, running Fed Propel, and so we want to make sure that those companies are also doing what they need to do. But Fed Propel is all about expanding the ecosystem, helping to grow the defense industrial base and making sure that we're providing quality businesses back to the government that understand the rules of engagement. And so we are very pleased with the companies that have gone through the program and we look forward to the future cohorts.

Speaker C: Great. Well, thanks for sharing about that. I know you all have gotten really great write ups about the first cohort and so I'm excited to see what happens next. For home care, you talked a bit about how NCMA has been instrumental in kind of your business success and you partner with them on this Fed Pill initiative as well. Can you share what? I think there's a lot of organizations out here, right, that are related to government consulting and, or those that support government consulting. So can you talk a bit about why you feel it's important to get involved in these industry organizations and how you really prioritize which ones and where you show up in regards to that organization?

Speaker A: Oh, definitely. I think there's a benefit there. There's a lot of great associations out there. I think you're focused on a specific sector. I would prioritize that association if that's their focus, if there's alignment there. NCMA Obviously aligns with the work we do on the acquisition side of things. But we also are, uh, members of Act II psc. And so there's a network of people that are well versed in the things that we need to know about. And so it's. What is really important is networking with those individuals. All of the associations put on great events that provide you with subject matter that is current and relevant. And so I go to a lot of the events mainly because I want to stay up to date on what some of the changes our government is constantly changing. If you're in the tech space, there's new technologies all the time. And so I want to stay informed, not just for myself, but for our customers. Because that's part of your strategic development in terms of if you want to grow, you got to stay relevant. You have to stay current with the things that are happening and how they're impacting your clients and the business. And so that's really the reason behind why we've stayed connected to ncma, act, IAC and some of the other ones as well. And so it's just figuring out what gaps you have, whether it's from your business standpoint, whether it's from a knowledge standpoint, and going to those places that can help you fill those gaps. And I have found that to be extremely helpful through networking and engaging with the different professional associations.

Speaker C: Can you talk a bit about the importance of connection? So we talk about networking and, um, in the D.C. metro area, you can spend all your time networking, but can you break it down for us around how and why those connections are so important that while it looks like you're just gabbing over drinks or the heavy hors d' oeuvres that they like to serve, what is your secret for making genuine connections that are mutually beneficial?

Speaker A: So I'm an introvert, right? And so networking is worked for me. And fortunately, if I'm connecting with someone, I'm pretty strategic in terms of you're gonna have those chance encounters with people and you may connect, you may not, for whatever reason, right? And sometimes there's. It just nothing happens with those, right. But for those where there is some connection, I try to stay in touch with them. I try to find a reason to reconnect and re engage if I see something that I think could benefit them, whether it's an opportunity, hey, I just saw this. I think it would be great for your team. It's not in our wheelhouse, but I know it's in yours. You should check it out. Or, hey, I Know, there's these two people that could really benefit from knowing each other. I don't know exactly in what capacity, but they're kind of in the same space. If I can make an introduction, like, it's little things that I think can go a long way in terms of building relationships, building trust between two people. And I try to find those opportunities to really connect beyond just, hi, my name is. I work for so and so and I do this, that, um, and the other. Like, that doesn't really do anything. If I go to an event, I have to get in the right frame of mind before I go one, just because I know myself and I don't want to be transactional. I don't want anything that we do to be transactional. And that goes down to building our partnerships with different organizations we work with and then just our client base. You have to get to know people, uh, to build and to grow in any capacity. And I just find it makes it a lot easier once you really get to know people to the core. What do they like? Do they have kids? Is there something you can bond over that's going to help you connect even deeper? And I think it's those types of relationships and connections that really benefit both. And that's why I'm pretty strategic in terms of the types of events that I go to. Why am I going to. What does the agenda look like? Who are the speakers? Who's potentially going to be in the audience? I love LinkedIn because if people say they're going to an event, I'm just like, oh, I want to talk to this person and they're going to be there. Can I make it a point to attend and make that a priority and then build from that? And I will Google people if I'm going. So just be strategic. Like, I don't go to an event just to go to an event. There's a reason going. There's a reason I want to connect with someone or potentially connect with someone. And then also just if the information is there, I like to soak up as much as I can. My biggest gap right now is AI. And so I'm doing online training around different things, related to all things AI, because I know that that's going to impact our industry, it's going to impact the way I do business. And so I need to know more. And so I'm starting to see kind of what's out there that can support that knowledge growth.

Speaker C: No, I definitely appreciate your viewpoint. I too, am an introvert, and I also. I'm an introvert who likes people, if that makes sense. So I like having one on one genuine conversations. And I'm really focused on the long term relationship.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: So I say often I will spend a lot of time talking to you and not ask for anything. Like I haven't asked for the sale. Right. And now my coach, my business coach is like, you need to get to the sale. But for me, I want to know, do I want to be in relationship with you? And it's. That takes longer than a couple of minutes. Right. That's more of like, who are you as a person? How do you do business, how do you treat your team, how do, how you treated your other partners? Like those are things I want to hear and kind of know about and kind of feel you out before we jump into business together. Because I think having that relationship will temper any issues. Right?

Speaker A: Exactly. I like to say I like to make good money with good people.

Speaker C: I love it.

Speaker A: There's got to be alignment of values before there's alignment of anything else. Because I trust any business that's working with the federal government can do what they're supposed to do. The level of how they do it, how well they do it, that's one thing. Right. You can go find another one. But it's hard to find good values, driven organizations and leadership. Because I'm sure these organizations have great teams of people that have values. But you really, at, uh, the level we're operating at, we're working with the core leadership and they're the ones that are making the decisions at the end of the day that are going to impact us and our client. And if we're not on the same values, it's really hard to get down to the really important things when push comes to shove. And if a problem arises and it just makes it more challenging if you can connect on values, I think it's so much easier to deal with conflict and overcome it. And I think with the right partners, with the right people, you can overcome anything.

Speaker C: Uh, agreed. And I think that make good money with good people. That should be a T shirt. So you heard it here first.

Speaker A: Yeah. I'll be honest with you. Like there's been times where we just. Great opportunity out there could transform the business. It wasn't the right fit. Sometimes it's just better to walk away because it could end up being more costly in the long run. And you have to be confident enough to make those tough, uh, decisions at times. And we've had to make them and just say no. It's not worth it. And there will be another. And you go find that other. And I seem to think that everything happens for a reason. There's been opportunities with organizations that just didn't pan out for whatever reason, but then on the other side, years later they did, and it was just a much better fit. And it's just like, okay, maybe that's why.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And, uh, you don't hold it against anyone. I think some things just happen for a reason. But we always maintain our relationships too, to the greatest extent possible. At the end of the day, we're all making business decisions and it doesn't make someone a good or bad person because it didn't work out. You just have to keep it moving and have that respect to say, no, this isn't the right fit, this isn't the right opportunity. And hopefully they understand.

Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. I think you can't force it. And I'm reading a book now and, uh, one of the chapters in the book talks about avoiding bad decisions. And people don't get credit for avoiding bad decisions. Right. So that makes me start thinking, like when you start to think like this is not a good idea, you can wave it off. The opportunity may come back around, or it may just not be your opportunity. So I think we have to listen to ourselves and our intuition, our knowing, our see all the flags, whether they be red or beige or pink or whatever, and just notice them and then make decisions based on that versus kind of what you imagine in your head this might be. So definitely appreciate you sharing that with us, Jennifer. If folks want to know more about you or mmc, how can they get in touch?

Speaker A: So we are on LinkedIn under MMC Consulting. Our website is www.marshallmadisoncompanies and my email is on our LinkedIn page, so I am accessible and look forward to connecting.

Speaker C: Great. We will also share all that information in the show notes. So, Jennifer M. I always ask two questions of my guest at the end of the show. And the first question is, what are one or two songs that are on your power playlist?

Speaker A: And why so Underdog by Alicia Keys is one of my favorite songs. In terms of when I'm just having a moment and not feeling super confident, it really just lifts my spirit. So I would say Underdog.

Speaker C: Great. I'll have to add that one to the list. And what is one book that you would say has helped you thrive in business?

Speaker A: Oh, uh, hands down, good to great. Is that Jim Collins?

Speaker C: I think so. So what about that book? Because that book is a few years Old what about that book has helped you thrive?

Speaker A: So as we think about our strategic growth over the next few years, building the right team is really critical. And being able to make decisions in the moment that are strategic in terms of finding the right people and understanding that they are the same mindset in terms of what are priorities, what is your ethos for how you do business, and having just that, uh, strategic alliance around what your goals are and how you're going to get there. And I just love that the attitude around they're not working out. Sometimes you just have to let them go. And I'm such like a low key person and I struggle sometimes with letting how I would prefer to do things from a personal standpoint impact how I do things from a business standpoint. And having friends that you used to work with join your team or family, those are like real decisions that you have to make. And sometimes they work out and sometimes they don't. And not being afraid to make those tough decisions was just a really good reminder for me and for some of the new team members. I said, I need you to read this book because I need to make sure that you understand what my expectations are in terms of how we're going to work together, how we're going to work with the rest of the team. Those things are just really critical to make sure that there's that alignment of values and of, uh, purpose and of strategy with our senior leadership team. I love that.

Speaker C: And we could have a whole other episode so based on that because that seems to come up a lot recently around that alignment, around how do you make those personnel decisions quickly as you think about where you want to take the business. And sometimes going from good to great requires making those hard decisions.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: So, uh, you'll have to come back for a part two on that. Well, Jennifer, it has been great talking with you today and as I said, I'm just excited, excited to see where you go next.

Speaker A: Well, thank you. I really appreciate you having us on and I look forward to your next podcast. You have had some great speakers, so keep it going. You are doing some amazing work and we appreciate you for it.

Speaker C: Well, thank you, Jennifer. Have a great one.

Speaker A: All right, take care.

Speaker B: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Women Thriving in Business podcast. If you like this episode, share it with a friend, join the conversation on social media and tell me what you've learned or what resonated with you. And if you're ready to explore entrepreneurship and are looking for guidance book a discovery call, I can help you make a plan before you take the leap. Go to bit ly bgsconsult. That's bit ly, capital B, capital G, capital S. Consult to schedule a, uh, discovery call today and until next week. Keep thriving.