S04E19 Resilience in Leadership: A New Approach | Danielle Korins | Wired for Wonder

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Wired for Wonder where we speak to the architects of the future of work leaders using AI to dismantle the old grind and rebuild work around what actually drives results. I'm Lori Kirkland and I've got someone who calls herself a happy warrior and means it not as a personality quirk, but as a deliberate survival strategy for leading people through the kind of change that breaks most organizations. Danielle Correns is the chief administrative officer at Napster. Yes, that Napster, which has been acquired by Infinite Reality and is now pivoting hard into AI including building digital twins on the B2B side. That's not a typical career stop. And Danielle is not a typical executive. She has held C suite People roles across Fortune 500 companies in medical devices, financial services, media and apparel and has led organizations through IPOs, major UM, M&As and the full complexity of scaling global teams. She's also the person who at AH Sterling doubled revenue, EBITDA and her and headcount across 10 countries simultaneously while leading a hundred person global people and culture team. What makes her perspective distinctive right now is her seat as chief administrative officer at Napster. She is sitting at the exact intersection of where operations and people strategy have collapsed into a single role which she believes is not an accident but a signal of uh, where fast moving AI native companies are heading. The old org chart separation between running the business and developing the people is dissolving and she's living that in real time. She's an optimist by defiance, a builder by instinct, and one of the clearest thinkers on what it actually takes to move people through change they didn't ask for. Welcome to the show Danielle.

Speaker B: Thank you so much and thank you for that introduction. I love learning more about myself. I started really good.

Speaker A: Yes, you're very impressive in case you didn't know. Well to get started. Uh, so you've described the happy warrior to me in an earlier conversation as a deliberate posture, something that you adopted to avoid taking the hard parts of leadership personally. When ailing is accelerating change fast, faster than most teams can absorb it, what does that posture actually require of a leader on a day to day basis?

Speaker B: Wow. Yeah, so I think uh, it's about what, how I define it is. It's about having that resilience to keep going when change is really hard and everything comes back to people and how they think and you know, their experiences. And I think yes is something that I was, I was called earlier in my career and I um, really really love it because I think it's very important to not take things so personally and not take them so heavily. And I think that helps us, uh, kind of see where people are coming from, realize that people are probably coming with. With positive intent and realizing that the words that someone's saying is not really perhaps, maybe landing in the right way for people, but that doesn't mean that it should set us back, if you will, you know. And so I think that, yes, I think that's how I would describe how I deliberately try to go through that and also guide teams and other people if I'm coaching other people of, you know, maybe how to look at things differently so it doesn't frankly hurt. Right. Or, like, sometimes the words that people say or the actions that people have are hurtful or confusing. And. And it's a way to kind of make it not about you in a sense, as much as possible.

Speaker A: I love that because I feel like we've been in a world where it's all about knowing the definitive answer. Like, you have to be right. And that puts pressure on every single one of us to be like, I have to say exactly this. Nothing more, nothing less. Whereas what your posture, from what I'm hearing you're saying is, is that like, hey, look, we all have to improve our communication, right? Every. Every time you go into conversation, it's changing with who you're talking to and coming in with a posture of like, all right, I'm going to try again. I'm gonna communicate. I'm not gonna take it personally. I'm gonna try again and make sure that that other person isn't hurt. You're setting the grounds as a leader, but in real time, too, for deeper conversation or deeper communication to be had. Is that right?

Speaker B: Yes, that's the goal. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: Okay, so in your role, you're really. You have the, the. The most official, but you're. You're in a role that I see happening, uh, with a lot of the AI forward companies that I'm working with, which is operations and people are coming together under one leader. Right. It's no longer business and technology. It's no longer business and people over here. It's. It's starting to all collapse. But because we need to think at a bigger picture. Tell us a little bit about what your role looks like and what are, you know, I guess I would love to start with what are some of the challenges you're seeing with, like, holy cow, we've taken two completely separate operations and brought them together. Yes.

Speaker C: So.

Speaker B: So the combination of HR and operations, I Think in my career and, you know, with the other HR people I've worked with, there's really nothing new. I think, I think, uh, one of the wonderful things about being an HR leader is that we are one of the groups that allows one to look across the entire organization, expects one to look across the entire organization. And so what I found is just even, definitely not even in technology firms, in trying to get to know the people, and it's really important to understand the work that they're doing. I'm, um, a big believer that culture is about, you know, people doing their best and knowing how they can get things done. I think that makes people feel really good about the work. So I'll give you an example where, you know, much earlier in my career, in just learning a new organization, you're talking to people across the, the groups to, to help, you know, just get to know them and show that we are, we are a team in HR that is not just about. You don't just call us when you need to take a day off or, you know, a manager doesn't call us when there's a problem, but rather we're in the system anyway. We are there to help the business through people, right? And then having happy people in the right roles that know how they can get work done, that's really essential. That's really how a business succeeds, as we know. So, you know, as I said early in my career, uh, you know, and I've always done this where you talk to people and really understand how the business works. Okay, so what do you do? What's a day in your life like? And then, and then, so you do that report and then where does it go and what system do you use? And what you find is, I, I have found that a lot of times people don't actually know how the business flows. They don't know what happens after they do that piece of their business, where it goes. And sometimes in just hearing the, the challenges from people, like, yeah, I do this report and I don't know, I send it over to X, Y, Z department, and I don't know, I don't hear back from them or, or, you know, I, uh, put it into, you know, Salesforce. But then nobody ever says anything. Things like that, I think help. I mean, those are the pieces that frustrate the, the employee, of course, and make it not as fun to be here, but also ultimately frustrates the customer. If you think about it, you know, if it's not cohesive, holistic ecosystem that at the end of the day is making sure customers are getting what they want and love the products and love the services. That's so important. So, you know, so there's so looking at it holistically and kind of taking a step back and saying, okay, well, why is that team using. Using examples of systems per se, but, like, why is that team that CRM, but then the other team is pulling things from a different CRM? Um, yes, anybody could do that holistically, you know, step back and look at all the processes.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: But I think when you hear it through the lens of the employee, it is so much more powerful because they're in the seat doing the work. And then, of course, you know, in operations, I think, you know, operations can mean so many different things to so many different companies.

Speaker A: Of course. Yeah.

Speaker B: But it's, you know, there are so many elements to making an employee's life and experience at a company good that have nothing to do with hr. Giving them a great orientation or being nice to them or having good benefits. Like I said earlier, it's about being able to do your best work and knowing where it goes and knowing where it flows back to you and that your work matters. So, like I said, it's always been very interconnected and every detail matters. And so just uncovering those pieces, those blockages, or where things are going really well and trying to replicate that in a company, I think is actually so beneficial. So I think a lot of HR probably does a lot of operations, maybe without having the title. I think having the title has really helped me not be apologetic for going in and saying, why are we using these 10 different things? Let's actually fix that and get rid of that. And really operating as a steward of the entire enterprise, the entire business, I think, has been. It's really fun. Um, and it's, you know, not something I haven't done before, like I said. But this pivot, I think helps. You know, just being named CEO and Chro actually just kind of gives the company the understanding and the. Gives us, in hr, the access to understanding all of those pieces across and helping them and helping the business at the end of the day.

Speaker A: And I like that because I have absolutely been at companies, I've been at Fortune 500, where HR is an afterthought. Uh, they're fighting so hard. The HR team is fighting so hard for the people. And then business process standardization gets in the way of actually caring about. There's no people strategy in the business side. Right.

Speaker B: So, yes, yes.

Speaker A: I like. I like this coming together because you also highlighted something I hadn't really ever thought about before, but I'm, um, seeing is that AI is moving so fast you can't stay in separate silos anymore.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: And you mentioned how HR spans horizontally, and that is like such a ticket for when things are moving fast. It is not just up and down, it's how are the different groups, you know, looking in. In filtering all throughout the company. So I really, really love that. Thinking in this time of fast, you know, fast change with AI, what do you think breaks? If people aren't looking horizontally and aren't actually, you know, or they leave the two departments separate, what do you think is on the table there?

Speaker B: So I think like, I think it's yes, those two departments, but I think it's all the departments. Right. So bringing in, making sure holistically that, you know, as a leadership team, I think our job is actually to. We're all interconnected and talking to each other, which is of course, very hard to do when, you know, you're in a distributed workforce, you're working from home or working just. It's always been like this, right? Even before COVID even before more people worked from home, it's always been, well, my key colleague is in Hong Kong or is in a completely different place. We've always had to kind of work harder to make sure we're communicating and connected. Now with AI, I think, well, we know what's happening is there's so much, I guess pressure is the right word for making sure that we're all on top of it, you know, even as individuals, I think they probably hear the word AI in all roles, you know, hundreds of times a day, and everybody's feeling like, okay, let me, let me use more AI. Let me figure this out, let me do this. But that doesn't mean it actually could be worse in that, you know, I'm using AI in one way, different departments using it another way, and it's still not talking to each other. So we're still not getting a holistic view of our metrics or of our processes or what's going to make us faster and most successful.

Speaker A: And, uh, you're probably speeding up the dysfunction that is in each of those different categories.

Speaker B: I think there's a risk of that. And I also think there's a risk of in some cases, like, I think, I mean, I, I work for an AI company, so I live in it every day, and I think of it as an extension of us. I think, you know, we think of it as a tool that makes us better. But actually you uh, can see it in lots of different places where people are trying to use AI and it's making us not as good because we're, you know, I've, you, uh, know, people are throwing out a beautiful presentation that AI helped them do and not necessarily reading it sometimes or really feeling like this is my work and I stand by it. And sometimes it's like anything, like, just like, just because, you know, Claude or ChatGPT or any of these uh, systems told us something, that doesn't mean that's the answer. Right. That doesn't mean that makes sense. And that's, and there's still so much change management that goes into everything that we're doing. So we can replace the word AI with, with metrics or data or brand or whatever we're trying to do. It doesn't mean that, you know, we're, we're, we no longer have to do those things as AI is doing it for us now. AI is doing a lot for us. I'm not saying it's not, it's making us a lot better. But if we're not careful, we're just kind of more quickly getting bad information out, if you will.

Speaker A: And it's interesting because you, you uh, are, you're speaking to something that I feel like is so true in the marketplace. Right. Like it really is. AI is not the solution. It's the catalyst for how we can actually change the model of operations of work to set us up to move faster, do better, and ideally. Right. Spend our time on things that are much more valuable than administrative work. Right. Then, yes, you want to get your presentation out there faster, but use it for your, you know, first draft to get your ideas, you know, out there. But it doesn't, it can't, it can't replace your critical thinking. Exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But I do think companies, even AI companies, right. Are dealing with the fact that it, it requires asking different questions or thinking about it differently.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: How do you see that in your role? Um, like showing up in day to day work, right, where you're, you're seeing leaders have to be asking different questions of their teams because the metrics you once had don't really measure how fast everything is moving.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So Danielle, so in this world where things are moving so fast, right, and people are having to use AI differently to help them. Right. We're seeing them move themselves forward, we're seeing uh, their work be able to happen faster. But there's also this requirement, requirement around leaders to start asking, um, yeah, yes. Questions to start asking questions that aren't so black and white. Right? Yes.

Speaker B: Yes. I think it's really, uh, what it's challenging us to do is, is two things that are different than before. One thing is why are you doing that work? So just because AI can make your report faster, you know, like, you know, I think the question to ask is why are we doing the report? What, uh, are. What's the purpose of it? Right? Like what, what is, what is the. It's not just taking all the maybe extra things we did or the just the. Okay, this is what I do today. I send out these three reports that maybe nobody reads, I don't know. So it's making you faster in getting them done. And maybe the report is, is much better with, with data and with information and helps you think. Think. But it doesn't mean that you should still be doing that report. Doesn't mean that. So it's uh, a. It's. We almost have to take a moment to, to say, what are we reminder. What are we trying to achieve here? What are we trying to do? Where are we trying to move and almost change how we work as individuals? So that I, I would say that's one thing and as teams. So I think that's one thing we have to do. The other thing is we need to communicate as humans more than ever. I am fine.

Speaker A: Um, evening.

Speaker C: Buyer's remorse. Buy a new car. I'll be moving in. Let's get started.

Speaker A: Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana.

Speaker C: You what?

Speaker A: Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it.

Speaker C: So there's no.

Speaker A: No, no buyer's remorse. More like buyers rejoice.

Speaker C: I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it.

Speaker A: Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Uh, limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven day return policy@carvana.com and

Speaker B: I think there's also one other thing that I think is happening sometimes is, you know, it's like from the history of time. It's. People don't always, you know, think another department is doing things the way that they would want to do it. So you know, let's take the example of brand. Like I said before, okay? So we have, you know, smart people in our department, you know, in thinking and marketing and brand and what are we putting out and we're all talking to each other and agreeing it, but somebody who's an engineer and likes to play with cloud code or like does that for a Living and is really good at it, can put a brand deck together and in five minutes and feel like they're doing it maybe better than that other department. And so I think there's also, when I say communication, I think making sure that we're communicating as humans and not just sitting behind our keyboard is obviously so important. It's always been important. But also just, you know, with that pressure around what departments don't we need, what people don't we need? How can we, you know, uh, do do more with fewer people? I think there's also a moment to realize that we're not experts in every area. So if I'm creating a brand deck and it's beautiful and I love it, it really requires us to kind of realize that there are smart people in other areas of the business that are thinking of it differently and have different expertise, and we should be talking to them about it versus going off and doing it on our own and showing how smart we are, if you will.

Speaker A: Uh, love that analogy. I'm actually really so glad you shared it, because it's putting into words something that I feel like is really relevant right now is when you are asked to do something, right? You were asked to do it because this was the shortest, quickest way for us to get this information. But. But now that we have the information that we can get much faster, it's not about doing that exactly. Answering that particular question, right? It is about how do we get the important information to colleagues better so that the organization overall can learn from it. Now, um, that story of, uh, a technologist versus someone in marketing is really great because it's kind of forcing us to go to something that humans, you know, we're the only, you know, species out there that has storytelling as our core component, right? And in this time of sense making of like, look, we're all trying to figure out all what all these changes mean, right? We don't know the answer. It's. It's unknown. But we know that there are things that we can rely on. And as a human, storytelling and communication is such an easy way to say, okay, so I, hey, I'm a technologist. I got this presentation done much faster right now. Now, not marketing. Here you go. Here it is. I'm done. Instead, what can we do with this information now that you weren't able to do before? Since I right your plate, right? Like, that's. That's a. Such a good story of how it is not about just the activity anymore, because, look, we got cloud code to get you Know, we've got chatbots to get everything done. Doesn't matter what tech you're using, right. You can get it done faster. But now it's about how do you change the conversation human to human, to say, wait a minute, what do we actually want to do? How do we want to serve our customers more? How do we want to serve our departments more? I love that thinking.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay, so what is something too that when you're thinking about, you know, you've been in some pretty big rooms, right? You've worked for really large companies like Pfizer and Dow, uh, Jones and you know, you've been through IPOs, major mergers, and now you're at a brand that, right, A uh, well known brand that's making has made a big pivot. Right. But all of those brands have been kind of, you know, pretty influential in building the workplace where it is today. What do you know about leading people through uncertainty that you wish someone had told you the first time you stepped into one of those big rooms as a leader?

Speaker B: Wow, that's a good question. I think I'll, I'll give an example of where I thought something was successful in leading through uncertain days. So I think I had uh, you just mentioned that people are good at storytelling. So I guess I'm a little nervous that I'm not going to tell this story well. But we had a situation where something had happened in China and so of course it happened when, while many of us in the US were sleeping and you know, I woke up to kind of, I would say what, how? I, I read it as furious emails from uh, the very top of the company of like, get, uh, your butt in here, we gotta figure this out. And you know, my boss asking me a thousand questions. So he's not, you know, on the back foot on this. Totally understandably. I think when I got into the room I made sure that I kind of try to be calm, speak slowly, be calm about it and say, okay, here are some of the facts. I am not worried about this. I am very realize the urgency to it, but we're going to be able to work through it through these things. It was almost like a calming of calming things down a little bit because I think people obviously you're going to react from um, fear and it's not my fault. And, and I think that was one where I was like, wow, that went really well. And of course, you know, I was a little terrified walking in there and you know, making sure I did get, did get it right. And what did we do wrong and how could we have avoided this? But I think just the kind of, I think just in any room, I think of like trying to calm down some of the emotions by listening, by hearing and by acknowledging that, yes, this is a really big deal. But yes, we acknowledge that it didn't go the way we wanted it to. And yeah, we're going to fix it right away. And here are the things we're doing. Hopefully that is a, uh, helpful response. But I see it all the time. I think a lot of times when people react kind of what seems like a little angrily sometimes it comes from just a fear of not knowing the thing. Right. And so trying to be calm. I guess this comes back to the happy warrior comment of like, just trying to calm, realize where people are coming from and being their partner in it versus the, the cog in the wheel. Right. Like, I'm, uh, I'm not just here to answer my boss's questions or to, uh, defend ourselves, but rather, okay, I'm in this with you to help you to help us all get through this together, even though we're very different levels or whatever. I think that makes difference.

Speaker A: But I love that because that goes back to the humanity of it. Right where you were coming in. That story is fantastic. Of. I heard when you were speaking as well, you were taking accountability for. I'm confident we can work through it. Like, yes, I understand that you don't see that pathway, but I do. And that's actually a skill that I feel like in the time of AI and change is really powerful right now. If you see the pathway forward, it's not about saying, I've got it, I'm right, I have the answer. It's like, hey, I can be your accountability partner and go through you this with you.

Speaker B: Yes, as a partner.

Speaker A: Yeah, I have the answer. Here you go. Check.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Or

Speaker A: upset or anger.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Like, you gotta acknowledge it, it's real.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I think, I mean, we're like, probably going off topic, but I, you know, I had a lot of, uh, internships in college in the hospitality industry. And the thing I feel like I learned customer service pretty well. Meaning if somebody asks you a question, you never say, oh, that person will get back to you. Or I don't know, it's, let me look into this. Leave it with me, I'll get it. I'll find out the answer. You pull. You kind of like run to pulling the right people and you make sure that you're the person that comes back and gives the answer. Or brings a couple people in and gives the person the answer versus, um, I don't know, that's the customer service department or that's the XYZ group that needs to do that. I think that was something that always stayed with me that, you know, it's everything from if there's a, you know, piece of paper on the floor, it. And it's my job to pick it up because I saw it on, um, part of making this whole business better, making this whole enterprise better, not just doing my. My job.

Speaker A: Love that. I love that you brought up the hospitality industry. I definitely put myself through college and paid off my college loans from waitressing and bartending. So I love that. And you're right. And if you don't keep the flow up and work part of the team during the rush hours, like, right is not about your job. It is crushing the whole flow. So I actually love that analogy of like, that's a great analogy because many of us have been in the hospitality industry to know, like, hey, you're part of a team no matter what. If you get your job done first, that's great. Where else can you support the rest of your team?

Speaker B: Yes, yes.

Speaker A: To go back to what you had said earlier in the call too, around, um, just the. The being people want to contribute. And so if you do get your job done, like, find ways to help other people out and let, or, you know, maybe let others fig. Figure out, you know, if you can help somebody else figure out how they can contribute, that feels good for you and it feels good for them.

Speaker B: Right, right, exactly. Exactly.

Speaker A: Uh, so when you think about our audience and think about the people listening, I want you to give us advice on what are three human skills you think are so important in this rapid time of change that you would recommend to people to, you know, if, if you, if you don't know what to do, you don't know where to. Where to go Here. Work on these three human skills. These are things that people really.

Speaker B: Wow, that's good. I think, um, I think I'd probably say be a little bit kinder than you, than you might have been. Like, I think sometimes I think about, you know, everyone comes home and talks to, you know, their friends or their loved ones and talks about their day. And sometimes when I'm, you know, dealing with something problematic or challenging or, like, I do think about making sure, like, everybody, like, they're not going to go home and be like, I just had the worst day. Like, you know, because of, like, maybe being. Just taking that one More step to making sure that the person who maybe wasn't speaking up in the meeting a lot, who's on your team, like, make sure they, they feel seen and heard.

Speaker A: That's.

Speaker B: That's one thing I think, you know, everything's moving so fast. I think being not a jerk is always helpful, but I think it's just, uh, we should, uh, we need to always remind ourselves of that. And then at the same time, I think, you know, giving, you know, negative feedback or criticism, I think is actually a gift and not telling people, not just like, just do the kindness on the other side. I think kindness is giving real feedback. So I think I, uh, think being honest with someone and saying, look, I think we could have done it better this way and let's get through that is one of the. The kindest things you can do. But it also obviously helps the business to make sure the person is not repeatedly doing those. Those things. And holding them accountable is hugely important. Third thing I think is, yeah, um, I'm going to go back to that, you know, assuming positive intent in people. Like, I don't think that people. Most people, I think, want to just do a great job. I don't think most people are trying to get rid of other people or take, you know, take the ownership for something they didn't do. Of course you have that and that has to be dealt with. But I think most people just want to do a good job and realizing that when they come burst into the room saying, you know, I know the, you know, I know the building's on fire, but we didn't finish our, you know, performance management planning for the year, or, you know, just, uh, like knowing that that person's just not coming in sometimes with a, with a full picture and just assuming positive intent. But also making sure. Back to the second thing I said of holding people accountable and giving them feedback is making sure they're realizing the bigger picture, if that makes any sense.

Speaker A: Oh, that totally makes sense. And all three of those things are right, wonderful and needed. And you feel better when you do all of that right. Like, you just feel better. And it makes the energy exchange that you're already having anyways, it makes it better between people. Well, Danielle, you have so much insight and wisdom. Um, and I am excited to kind of keep following you on this journey and really being a leader in that. The collapse of. The official collapse of operations and HR really looking across industries. So thank you so much for being on the show.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: And thank you everyone for listening.

Speaker B: Thanks, everyone.