199 - Replacing Your #2 Leader the Right Way - Mark Mahoney, Cyndi Gave, and April Stercula

Speaker A: You're listening to Win Win, an entrepreneurial community with your host, Ben Wolf.

Speaker B: And welcome to the Win Win podcast, the official podcast of Wolf's, uh, Edge Integrators. I am thrilled to be telling the Jackrabbit story, and they're specifically related to the integrator role, the COO role, in their business, uh, fantastic SaaS company. And uh, want to tell the story of this company from multiple different angles here. So I've got April Sturkula, who is the fractional COO from the Wolf's Edge Integrators team who has served and worked with Jackrabbit. I want to introduce Mark Mahoney, who is the owner and founder of Jackrabbit. I want to introduce Cindy Gave, who founded the Metis Group, which has been intimately involved in, uh, especially on the talent front, if it's fair to say, getting them on the. Getting them on the right track and supporting and helping. And um, and so I want to, I want to tell the Jackrabbit story today. So if I could start with introductions for the three of you, if you could each give me, you know, kind of one or two minute background on yourself, how we got to be having this conversation today. Maybe starting with you, Mark.

Speaker A: Sure. Now, um, Mark Mahoney m. One of the. There's two co founders of Jackrabbit Technologies, and we are a vertical center sas, and we offer business software to children's activity centers. And those include gymnastics gyms, dance studios, swim schools, and a bunch of other kids activity schools. And we, uh, we have 130 people that work for the company. And we have been virtual, uh, since before it was cool to be virtual. We've been virtual for 20 years now. And that worked. It wasn't, it wasn't a strategic thing. It was because we didn't have any money to begin with to have an office. And when we did, we're like, well, we all like working virtual. So, um, we've had, we've had nice growth over the, over the last 20 years. We've got 130 employees and 37, uh, states. And we've, uh, we've got about 21,000 locations, client locations in 38 countries around the world. So that's us.

Speaker B: Awesome. Cindy, how about you?

Speaker C: Uh, so the Metis Group, our behavior experts at work, we have just celebrated our 29th year in business. I founded this in Metro Detroit and about 10 years into it, decided to expand it outside of Detroit for many different reasons, and, uh, landed in the Charlotte area and commuted, uh, back and forth Every month by car for 15 of the last 19 years. Um, so we too were doing things virtually Mark forever. And uh, now we decided after we had to learn how to do everything virtually, there was no sense to have two homes, two offices, made the crazy commute. So our headquarters is now in, uh, Davidson, North Carolina. But we service all over the U.S. primarily in the eastern and central time zones. And we work with clients who need to put processes in around the people part of the business. So hiring the superstars, getting superstar performance out of them, which is really about leadership. So our leadership academy addresses so many different things from emotional intelligence to aligning the strategic leadership practices to the strategy that EOS implementers help folks with on their vto. Um, and uh, we just love helping organizations get everything they want out of the talent so that they can do the things that they really want to do, um, and have the business that they love. And we were fortunate enough to meet Mark. Gosh, ages ago. Might have been 19 years ago when we first came down.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Been a while. Yes. Yeah, it's been a while.

Speaker B: That's amazing. And I love, as a Nashvillian, I love the accent that came out when you said the name of the city where you are based. Now that was really, really great to see and hear. But, uh, it was just that one word. Everything else you said was very, very, very newscaster. But that one, the word North Carolina out with a special, the special twang, which I, I can very much appreciate. But April, uh, Sturkula from the Wolf's Edge Integrators team, tell me about you.

Speaker D: Yeah, so hi everyone. April Stokula is. I started my career in, uh, working for big Fortune 100 companies and was, uh, fortunate to have a diverse experience and take the role of many chief of roles, um, across several, um, companies. Um, at some point I decided to get out of big corporate America and try to do things on my own. And I found my way to, um, working with entrepreneurs, founders, business owners. And what I like to say is I brought my biz, big business acumen to them and still allowed them to be entrepreneurs. Right. Um, so, um, I've been doing that for probably 10 or 15 years and in between there is, I have, um, been, um, chief of again at a SaaS company, own my own SaaS company, um, but kept finding my way back to doing their consulting work, um, with the founders that I just, I just fall in love with. Mark especially included in there. And a year ago, um, um, Ben, you and I got introduced and so I just love the business model of Wolf's Edge and what you're doing with the fractional, um, COO work, which is what we're going to talk about today. Um, and so I've been off and running ever since, uh, like I said, with Wolf's Edge a year ago, and got to meet Mark, I guess Mark was October, November. I'm losing track. Uh, I feel like I've known you forever now, but. Yeah, so we've been working together for several months. M. Now.

Speaker B: That's awesome. Yeah. So I guess I would love to hear from Mark if you can take us briefly through kind of, uh, the brief evolution, uh, of Jackrabbit and how we got to the point where. I guess how we got to the point where we were looking for a new integrator, but. But stopping just before that. Right. So what was the. What was the story? What's the Jackrabbit story?

Speaker A: Well, a bit of the backstory. So, you know, Mike and I started the business and then, you know, got to about, uh, 40 people, 45 people. You know, we're. We're beginning to feel a lot of burnout. Um, Mike and I had run teams, but we had not run, uh, a company of this size before. So, um, you know, we had that. We wanted to support our people. You know, we're very much a servant leader model. And the company was growing. We didn't, uh. And we were, we were quickly becoming the biggest bottleneck in the growth inhibitor of our, of our company. We also didn't want to lose our culture as we grew. And so with all those things coming to head, um, we. We had reached out to the Metis group and, and at the same time, I had heard about EOS Entrepreneurial Operating System, and was thinking that could be something, that something, you know, the framework we could put in the company to help us make sure that we, number one, maintain our culture. Number two, we have the right information flowing up, uh, through the organization, and we have information flowing down through the organization. And so when we. We began to embark on that, we engaged with the Metis group. They, uh, this was probably about eight years ago where we, we, um, got to meet Cindy and John's team and they've been awesome, um, so far for this many years. We did a core values exercise with them, and then we began to map out the accountability matrix for this integrator role. And, uh, they helped us, you know, uh, define that, get our arms around it. There was a big concern from the leadership team of, oh, we don't want to report to Somebody else other than Mark. And it's like, no offense, but I don't want to be the integrator anymore.

Speaker C: Um, I distinctly remember that conversation, Mark, that was. We still tell that story, uh, about how the team refused, just said, we are one particular person on the team. I'm only reporting to Mark. And Mark said, I'm not going to be here. I'll call you. I'll, uh, block your call.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: It was hysterical. Because before we defined the integrator role, we had to start with, everybody understands if he's going to run on EOS pure, this is what the reporting structure is going to look like. And I mean it started with people having their back to the room, arms crossed.

Speaker B: It was, well, how did you, I mean this was, this is, I mean this is what you had a full time integrator whenever this happened. But like, so before that, uh, how did you. Cindy, I mean Cindy and Mark. How did you get through that? How did, how did you, how did you get to the other side of that resistance?

Speaker A: Well, a bit of, a, bit of a caveat there is we did not have an internal candidate, um, that was going to be the, be the integrator. So, you know, this is going to be a stranger walking in. And uh, many of us have been working together for five or ten years by this point. So there was a tremendous amount of fear of. I, I like reporting to Mark. Um, I, I don't, I don't want to report to a stranger, you know, so. But like Cindy said, it's like this is not really an option, you know, because I was, I was in big time burnout M mode. I wanted to continue to lead the company, but I just couldn't work 60 hours a week anymore. And so, um, it was interesting day but we came out of it. You know, the, what I love about the Metis group are the processes that they walk us through. They had a very defined process to come up with our core values. The team was very excited about that as we were, that, okay, we've got a blueprint to keep culture intact. And then they did the same thing of, uh, okay, what does this integrator need to be able to do? What are the hard skills? What are the soft skills? How are they going to spend their time? What are some high priority skills that they may not use a lot, but they're critical to the success of this position. And really after we spent that, that day, the initial day, um, you know, really it was requirements gathering from, from myself and especially from the team. And I, I Vividly. Remember when Cindy, you know, put it up there? It's like, okay, if we can find somebody like this, you know, are y' all good with this? You know, and. And there. There were these resistance. Yes. You know, um, but it really did. It flushed out the concerns, the needs, and it really set up, uh, um, our integrator, who Metis group, ended up helping us, um, go through these resumes, you know, assess the applicants, um, and give us the assessment to do that. You know, I think we had several hundred. It was over 200 applicants apply for the position. And of course, we'd never hired a position like this before. It's like, holy cow, how do we do this? Um, and the assessment that came out of, uh, the accountability matrix exercise was wonderful because it enabled us, instead of having that typical interview of, uh, well, uh, tell me what you've done and tell me about your company. It, um, really enabled us to go right to the heart of the matter, uh, with very specific questions about, um, you may want to find out more about, you know, how did they handle, uh, a leader that was. That had a great culture fit, was not. Was not in the right seat, you know, things like that. And that gave, you know, me as an owner because I'd heard so many horror stories about companies hiring an integrator or a coo, uh, you know, handing them the reins, and then they, you know, they dismantle the company or run people off or, you know, the opportunity causes the biggest cost. Um, so I love the process exercises that. That Metis group walks us through. So at that point, we did hire a coo. Uh, he came in and it. It was. It was an incredible impact on both sides of the coin. It really helped. It gave our leaders, you know, somebody to report to. Although it's really, um, he was serving them to make sure that they had the tools and resources so they could do their job. Uh, and then, of course, it gave me the ability to move from a COO role to a CEO role, which, by that time, I wasn't doing any of the CEO stuff because I was so entrenched in the COO role, the integrator role, that it. It was a godsend to me where I. I would have a much better work life balance back then. And that was wonderful after many years of working many, many hours a week. And I could focus on the things I love to do. And those. Those things are, um, key relationships within the industries, speaking at conferences and trade shows, um, innovating the business. I could work on the business. I could engage with other CEOs to hear what's going, you know, what are they seeing, what are they doing? And so it, you know, it's the same thing that we see in our company where I was able to elevate myself into a role and get re. Energized about the business, uh, right to, you know, begin to take it. So we, at that point in time, when we hired our, the COO, we had, I think we had 47 people and he was able to lead us up, uh, uh, double the size of the revenue. Ah, the headcount went to about 125. And we were really were positioned well to scale because we, our goal is to continue to grow and we, we want to grow anywhere from 10 to 20% a year, consistent growth. And um, you know, going through that exercise, I tell people about it and I presented to many people, business, uh, owners groups, about our, our experience and our journey in that. And, and then, um, at that point, you know, our coo, uh, was ready to retire and it had been a great run. And, and so we, you know, we went through the process again.

Speaker B: Let me, so, so, so let me stop there if I can get, well, Cindy's perspective on, I guess on that, on that process of having the teams buy in. And then what happened after the COO came in? Like what, like what were you seeing from the outside?

Speaker C: Yes, there's a couple of things. And um, you know, all of our processes have been designed to work hand in glove with EOs. And so sometimes we have similar terms. So there's uh. When our clients talk about our accountability matrix, it's like the accountability chart but on steroids. So it goes into much greater depth. Talks about how much percentage of time is in each of the five categories. Priorities, identify success factors. Um, so that gives people a different idea. It goes much deeper than the accountability chart. But it's um, they're seamless. So when we start, the first thing is Mark's adamant, uh, intention about not having any direct reports. Helps a lot. We get a lot of visionaries who say, oh yeah, I'm going to do EOS pure, except, you know, the CFO is going to still have to report to me or sales, you know, and, and so then it's like, all right, this is EOS freestyle. This is not EOS pure. Okay? And so trying to guide them and keep in mind, Jackrabbit was learning EOS at the same time we were trying to tell them they're going to have a new integrator. So that's A challenge. One of the biggest things we do, um, for our clients, and I think one of the biggest differentiators in how we will take our clients through the journey of finding their integrator is we start by creating that job scorecard or the accountability matrix on the visionary's future role. So everybody is. Because they're all thinking, why am I getting demoted? Why am I going to have to report to somebody else I want to report to? How could Mark not have time to supervise me? I'm so perfect, right? And so how do we get them past this? And part of that is making sure they understand, look, Mark's going to get to do all that stuff you guys have been wanting him to do, speak at conferences, have some of these key client relationships, do some of this other stuff that he doesn't have time for because he's babysitting you guys. So by helping them understand what he's going to do in the future, that kind of set the tone. We also know the number one reason integrators fail is the visionary. Because it sounds like a great idea to delegate all this stuff away that I have to do the day to day stuff until the integrator arrives. And then they're like, oh, this is how I get my identity. Now what am I going to do? Well, I know I told you you're going to get this, but why don't you shadow me for a while, Learn the industry, you know, little by little, I'll have people report to you. And it just, you know, 18 months later, they feel like a, uh, substitute teacher and they're gone. So, um, by getting clarity around what Mark gets to do, got him excited about it, and then it let the rest of the team then help us build out the job scorecard or the accountability matrix for the integrator going, well, somebody's going to have to do this other stuff if Mark's not going to do it. And by the end of that day, they all realize, oh, you're not bringing somebody in to micromanage me. This person's gonna actually remove obstacles, deploy resources, like, they're gonna make my life easier. And so when they get to define what that person's role is, and then we take them through three sciences, not just one, but we use multiple sciences to define what would the ideal human look like to do this job in your culture. Then they get to say, oh, if we get to hire that person, I'm in. Like, I get it there. To, to Mark's point, there might have been a little skepticism, like really, we're gonna get this. But eventually they realized this was gonna be much better in the long run. But, but it really does start with the, the two pieces which is getting clarity around the visionary's role first but also having Mark be crystal clear about. No, I'm not deviating from this plan. Um, because it's easy for them to get, um, it's easy for visionaries to get sort of um, uh, embarrassed into uh, giving into some of those things. But every time we do this with a leadership team and we ask for big takeaways, at least one, if not two people are going to say starting with the visionaries role was, was the deal, the, the game changer.

Speaker B: That's an amazing, that's an amazing insight. Right? I love how that tries to sort of take the air out of some of that opposition. That's natural by, you know, by, by having it not just what are we going away from. I am trying to get out of the day to day, but what am I going to. And what's the much higher and better use that I can be to the entire business and everything that we're trying to do with our mission and you know, what you're all working towards how we can get there much faster if I'm, if, if I'm freed up to be able to do the things that are going to get as much there faster and not treading water in the day to day.

Speaker C: And, and every visionary is different. So the things you heard Mark describe as the things he loves to do, he's got an EO forum buddy who's like, yeah, I don't really like the ambassadorship stuff. There's a bit of it he's got to do. Right. But we like to pretend he's mad scientists when he goes back into the brewhouse brow house and starts tinkering around with different beers.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. R and D. Some people, they love the R and D. They love. Some people love being the rah rah culture person with the team. Like they love developing, taking care of, motivating. They love working with the team. Some people love the R and D, you know, the next product, the next service. Some people, you know, love making big contracts so we have more products and services to sell to our clients. Some people love making the deals with the, with the biggest clients. I mean, you know, some people like you said, love being the thought leader and teaching, you know, and you know, and raising the rosing the profile of the business. Um, but yeah, it's, everyone's going to have a Different thing that they're attracted to. But Mark, I want to get back into. We're going to get to April in a second once we reach that part of the story. But, uh, you know, when we get to this part of the story where, you know, leading up to the point where you and I met, when Cindy introduced you to us. So like, what was, what was prompting, like what was going on? What was the challenge? What was prompting this search that, you know, during that time when you met us.

Speaker A: Gotcha. Yes. So we re engaged with the Metis Group when our CEO announced retirement. And that, uh, and that's when we realized we needed to redo the accountability matrix. And we went through the same exercise because it was a very different company at that point. You know, instead of one product, we were three products instead of 47 people. Now we're at 120 something people. And um, it's a very different competitive landscape. So when we re engaged, um, it was suggested we did the same thing. Started at the CEO visionary role, uh, went through that, then, then did the integrator. Because of course we, we wanted to set up that integrator for success. And that, that, that of course is the key to that. And it did end up being a different type of position, different skills needed. And at that point in time, I had, I had slid back into the integrator role. And it reminded me how much I did not want to be in this role. And I thought I could do it. Um, and I was incorrect. So at that point, um, and we didn't want to rush hiring the next coo. We wanted to, you know, we had a great run with the first one. We want the same kind of thing with the next one. We want a nice long tenure. Um, and so at that point in time, our, our leaders still need support. There's, they're, you know, they're demanding. I want, we want to make sure they're getting what they need, the resources and guidance they, and leadership, uh, to make, help the company move on. And so at that point in time, um, Cindy mentioned to me if I was interested in a fractional integrator. And I'm like, well, what's a fractional integrator? You know, um, and I'm like, I have never heard of a firm that did this. So I was like, tell me more about this, please. So, uh, she introduced me to Wolf's Edge. And um, it was very, uh, it was, it was very comforting to be able to work with a company that was familiar with eos, ah, familiar with, uh, the integrated role. So that, you know, ideally we could bring somebody in not having ever heard of Jackrabbit and be able to slide in, um, you know, in a, in a part time role and really keep the boat moving forward. And that would, that would pull back some of my time of the day to day. And that, uh, that's it. It has been awesome since that. So it was a very quick transition when April joined the team. Um, you know, you and I spoke, Ben, and we specked it out and then you recommended, uh, April. And boy, again, it was a godsend that, that we were able to, you know, bring somebody in familiar with the processes, the nomenclature, everything. And that took a tremendous load, uh, off of my time. But it, it also gave us breathing room to have a, you know, an intentional and well thought out transition into a new integrator person being hired.

Speaker B: Right. You can hold out for the right person. Yeah. Cindy, what were you gonna say?

Speaker C: Um, there's a couple of things. So I got the call from Mark in maybe August. Yeah. Um, that his integrator was going to retire and um, and he was going to stick around at least through the end of the year. And I said, oh, m. Most people who, once they decide they're done, not gonna last that long. And he said, well, and I don't want to rush. And I said, okay, so let's think about the fact that it's the end of the year and if it's a currently employed integrator and they're any good, they should be coming up on year end bonus. So they're not anywhere by the end of the year. So we may not be able to really start initiating real candidates until the beginning of 2025. And he's like, oh, okay, well, I don't want to be in a rush. I'm not going to be in a rush. Uh, we also realized that, um, the previous integrator came out of SAS and that had some pros and cons. Now Mark mentioned that they were going from one product to three products and there were some hip hiccups along the way. And because of the previous integrators intense familiarity, he tried to jump in and try to help some save fix some of that. Which meant that Mike and Mark got more people bubbling up to them. And what became clear through all of this is maybe there was a drift away from a pure integrator because his previous integrator had been a COO with not all direct reports and he had had more intense intended involvement in operations. So, uh, it was Easier for him to get sucked in. Mark and Mike, when we went through the definition phase this time around in September, were pretty clear. Once we defined the new accountability matrix job scorecard, there was nothing in there that said this person had to come out of sas. So Mark and Mike said, I think that's going to create more problems than it is help us. So we want to actually steer away from that. Um, the idea of the fractional integrator I suggested to Mark, because the way you guys run it, Ben, is that it's as much a transitional integrator as it is a fractional. Um, I'm m not a huge believer in the fractional go on forever, um, arrangements. But fractional transitional made all the sense in the world. And I thought that was going to help for a couple of reasons. One, it was going to let the CEO who decided he wanted to retire, to retire and to start, start the next chapter of his life. Um, I thought it would also be a good reset for Mark and his team to have someone in the integrator role who ran EOS pure. And that was they were going to have a new refreshed vision of what that actually looks like. The fact that April came out of SAS but does not do programming, um, was a benefit she got the industry, but she wasn't sucked into it. So she could understand that and remind people, nope, that's not what integrators do. This is what integrators do. And you know, and they're like, well, what happens if we run into a problem? We're like, well that means that you all are going to find somebody who can solve the problem internally or the integrator brings in and integrates into the organization external resources that can help solve some problems, but they aren't the answer to everything. Um, so from my side, and Mark and April will have to, to give some feedback from, from my side, I thought having that transitional and then maybe even helping.

Speaker D: I don't.

Speaker C: I, I think April and Laura are working, work together a little bit in transition. So as the new integrator came on, they could work through a healthy transition together. So that it was kind of seamless for all of Jackrabbit. But, um, I think Mark and, and April will be able to talk more about, um, actually benefited Jackrabbit as opposed to having a clean cut from one integrator to an exporter.

Speaker B: Right? Yeah, yeah, I want to get to that part of the story. And it's interesting what you're saying about interim. I would call it interim. Right is somebody is fulfilling that integrator or COO role in an interim basis. And that's what we do in basically 100% of our engagements. Our engagements are typically, you guys are on the shorter end, but typically nine to 18 months. And, uh, we're able to move some major initiatives forward, maybe that have been delayed or pushed off or attempted for a long time, get right people in the right seats within the organization and then hand it off to somebody long term, full time, whether that's somebody that we can help elevate from within, which is nice when we can do it, or whether that's. Whether we need to be intimately involved and, you know, working with someone like the Metis group or a recruiting firm and help bring in someone from the outside if we don't have a good inside candidate, um, that is. That is so valuable. And it is. And it enables you to kind of hold out for the right person. So you don't feel, like Mark said earlier, like, we want to, like we're going to be rushed and it's so stressful. I want to. Let's just get somebody in that seat.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker B: Just because it's so hard.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: But if you have the ball moving forward, you have confidence, you have relief, you can hold out for the right person. Happened to me. You guys had a successful search, and so. And so you're able to do that, uh, relatively quickly. And I want to get to that part of the story soon. But, um, I want to ask you guys one quick question before I get to April's part of the story that I want to hear, which is, um, what else, if anything, did at that point when you were looking for this? Ah, you know, the COO is retiring. Uh, what else, if anything, did you try besides talking to Wolf Sedge integrators? What else? Or, uh, any other kinds of things. That's the only thing you tried. Is that. Is that right?

Speaker A: Well, before we knew about, you know, Wolf's integrators, um, we had planned that the, the current COO was going to hold out. Uh, but like Cindy said, it becomes when somebody's decided to retire, you know, they're. They're. It's hard to run that. Hard like you used to.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, that became apparent. And then. And then when I got back involved, now, you know, now you got kind of two leaders and different styles going on. So, you know, that was a. That was a, ah, another thing we, we needed to deal with. And, and then, of course, you're. You're realizing, oh, some, you know, some Things need to change. So um, really when then we got introduced and you tell me about your model, I'm like, uh, oh, that could give us, that could give us what we need right now. Keep the company moving forward and keep these projects, these very important projects moving forward.

Speaker C: I also didn't realize that Mark had been dragged back into the organization to the extent that he was. Mark, how long were you, um, so talk about the EOS life, Mark. Mark's goal when he first brought us in, what, eight years ago was I want to be at the beach. I'll come back for quarterly meetings and the two day annual planning session. But other than that I'm out. So how long ago did that change?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great question and I'm glad you had brought that up, Cindy. So, yes, when, when uh, when we transitioned to eos, uh, uh, our, the original integrator was onboarded. It was a three month process. And so you know, he interviewed everybody, got to know the processes and then basically I, ah, remember it was January 6th of the year, we flipped a switch and he had been attending the leadership L10s, um, that I was not there and it was his team at that point. And so that went really well that, that type of transition. And then, um, that was running well. Yes, I was getting to do, you know, not work like I did before, get to work on the things I wanted to. And then, um, years later, we were maybe five, five or so years into it, that the integrator was overwhelmed with, with, with time, capacity and needed some relief. And there was also a combination of comfort level with certain teams reporting to him that I was handed one team. And what I didn't realize is when you get handed a leader like that, all of a sudden now you're in a quasi integrator role, you know, because that leader interfaces with other people when. Now guess what, now you're back, you're back into it. You may not have eight leaders reporting to you, but you're back in a, in a semi integrator role, which I didn't realize that. Um, and I was trying to give the COO some relief and then, and then I was handed another one which I was still trying to give the COO some relief. And, and those are big, those are big mistakes. Now looking back at it, I won't make that mistake again on this next one.

Speaker C: Do you think then it was the last two or three years?

Speaker A: Uh, I, uh, think. I think the first report I got was maybe 18 months ago, maybe something like that. And then the second one was maybe a year ago or so, eight months ago, Something. Something along those lines. And so, yeah, lesson learned. We are going to stay EOS pure when it comes to that.

Speaker C: So that was the other thing I was hearing when he called me in August, September, is I learned that he hasn't been at the beach this whole time. And I could hear the fatigue, um, and knowing this could be a good four to six months out, I'm like, oh, no, that. That's not healthy. That's just not healthy for the organization. It's not healthy for Mark. It's not healthy for Mike. Um, and that's when the other reason I said to Mark, you know, there's other alternatives. I. I just don't think this is. This is what you need carrying you forward. And that's when I asked, would you kind of sort of be willing to consider an interim fractional integrator? And he's like, what? What? Um, but that was. I think that talking into it might have been a little bit easier knowing that you had been sucked back into the, uh.

Speaker A: Oh, yes.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And you had the insight. I thought we were gonna, you know, you know, snap our fingers, have a couple hundred resumes, and, you know, flip somebody in here. Um, but, you know, realizing that it's not like that once a company has grown, like, we've, you know, we. We need to start back. We need to do the accountability matrix at the visionary, the integrator. And of course, that all takes time. And guess whose time that takes. You know, um, and then. And then, yes, finding the quality candidate. Um, like Cindy said, that's not something that you do in a month or two.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It's been great working with y'. All.

Speaker B: Now, let me ask. Let me ask April now, like, okay, around this time in the story, you know, I, you know, Cindy introduced me to Mark. I had a great conversation with Mark. I, you know, I communicated. Share all that with you, April. Tell me your perspective right now. Like, what did you see? What were your observations going in? And then, uh, you know, and then I guess. I guess we kind of. Kind of heard why they. Why they hired us. And you. But, like, you know, what did you see? What did you observe? And then the very early stages of the engagement, like, first days, first weeks. What happened?

Speaker D: Yeah, so, um, the first thing. And Mark even brought it to my attention, and then I was able to observe it. But to his point is he was kind of half in and half out of these roles, visionary and integrator roles. And so it's Like a couple people reporting to him, some other people were reporting to the CEO, you know, somebody else. We weren't sure who they were exactly reporting to. The first thing we had to do was they're like nope, we're going back to. Everybody reports to the, you know, integrator. So that was one of the biggest observations. The other thing that was interesting and again Mark said it a few times and then I kind of saw it in action was because he was kind of had slid into this role, people had also slid into some old habits of um, delegating up. Right Mark. Mark's like I what's happening? Why is this happening? Is I'm finding is not only they're reporting to me, but they're putting work on my plate. Like so that was the other thing we kind of had to reverse kind of course on um. And so you know, getting back to running the L10s the way we wanted to run the L10s and making sure the issues were the right issues that we were talking about. The good news for us is, um, I think I started in October and I guess it was late October and we had the annual. Was planned for December. Right Mark, I'm m remembering correctly.

Speaker A: That's right, yeah.

Speaker D: And so we had our two day off site and um, the integr, um, the former integrator COO facilitated those. So now I was also facilitating that session. I didn't know that I'm telling on you Mark. But anyway, so um, it was a great opportunity. And back um, Cindy, to your point about bringing in the right expertise from the outside also to solve some problems. The other thing we saw was on the product offerings there were some that we actually, you know, as Mark had gotten back in there was thinking we need to take a new path forward. There were some where we wanted to refine the strategies and some we needed to refine the processes underneath of it. So the annual meeting. And so Mark had engaged an outside source that he's known for a really long time to help also come in and be an advisor, counselor, you know, consultant. And so Mark, myself and this third party were all. We all really took a hard look at how we were going to run this annual two day off site because we had some tough messaging to deliver. I don't know if it was tough messaging Mark, how you describe it, but it was different. Right. We were um, level setting or resetting and reestablishing some things. Um, the good news is, and I um, you know the first day is we kind of, I didn't see arms crossed, Cindy. But I think, Mark, we saw some people like, okay, what's happening now? Like, who is this lady coming in? Who's this other guy sitting at the table? Where is Mark taking us now? You know, but by the second day, when we had laid out the rocks and we were really talking about rallying as a team, you know, no silos here, no delegating up is Mark. We got almost a standing ovation for what we walked away. Am I right? Yeah.

Speaker C: Mean, it was.

Speaker D: There was a level of engagement and understanding there that was different than what we had going into it. For sure.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, the. The wonderful thing about April and working with a fractional integrator is that, you know, I've only seen one company, eos, and one integrator. You know, April's been in multiple companies, and it was very comforting to me when I went back into the position going, I'm seeing some things here. And when you've got a second set of eyes beside you going, yep, I'm, um, seeing the same thing. I'm like, okay, we don't have to second guess this, you know, now, now what do we. Now we work on the solution.

Speaker D: Right?

Speaker A: And I mean, what, What April brought to the table, you know, having been an integrator in multiple companies has, was. Is a huge advantage for us to. To, you know, to go through this transition because we've. We've had 20 years of success. You know, we've been on the Inc 5000 a dozen or more years in a row. Um, but, uh, I think we've gotten complacent to some degree and that, uh, it's like, you know, guys, we, we. We've got to keep pushing forward. I. I am not sitting on our laurels. I want this company to continue to innovate and to grow. And, you know, April coming in having been an integrator multiple companies was huge for me. A comfort factor as a visionary slash integrator, um, of, um, making m. Some tough decisions.

Speaker C: I m think the fact that she had also been an actual pure integrator and not just a COO who read the book.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Of traction. I think that helped a lot. I think that she could help reiterate and reinforce, um, EOS practices and visionary integrator rocket fuel roles, I think made a huge difference as an outsider looking at.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's. That's exactly right. She was, you know, very much new the success formula and got us right back on track.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: April, were you about to say something?

Speaker D: I was. And guess what that thought just went right.

Speaker B: Uh, I do have a question for you April, which is that, you know, you came, you came into Jackrabbit and you know, you saw like Mark was back in these roles again and we had to like level set and we had to look at the products and you know, you know, look at these hiccups. They're just like, you know, there's like a hundred opportunities and challenges and half built bridges, you know, partially done efforts that were all in front of you. And then you, you know, and you, you know, you know, we're not, you're not going to sit around for the next six months deciding what to do. So how did you, how did you approach coming in so quickly into a situation, into an environment to like get your bearings, get your C legs, figure out what to do, galvanize people around whatever the new, you know, figure out what the new plan is and then galvanize people around that plan. Tell us a little bit about the methodology that you brought to bear for coming into this big mix of potential priorities and uh, to create clarity and then get alignment.

Speaker D: Yeah. So, you know, one of the first things I do with any company that I'm new to is I've just got to assimilate myself with everything, right. So I'm meeting with all of the leaders one on one. I'm meeting multiple times with the uh, visionary CEO to get on the same page, um, with him is I just start jumping into running the L10s. Nothing better than to uh, you know, um, get immersed in the business, you know, that way. The other thing that h was happening, like I said, was we were preparing for the annual. And so that was a, just a great entry point for me. It just happened to be the timing kind of worked out for that. And then the other thing that was unique here was because Mark had brought in this other um, consultant to talk about some of the product and business strategy is this is maybe a little bit outside of eos, but Mark and this gentleman and I kind of formed this triumvirate of, and we would meet, we, you know, we still do every Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 7:30-8 just to talk strategy and make sure that from Mark's visionary chair, right, we were aligned. It's the reason we have our same page meetings, right as any engagement. We have same page meetings, right with our clients and visionaries. This was uh, M3 of us meeting to make sure that we were all aligned on the strategy to go forward for each of the, of the products. And so that Helped a ton as well, which then allowed me to make sure in the annual meeting the rock setting made sense. Right. The milestones for the rocks made sense. The right people were accountable for it. And you know, and some of the other thing that um, we talked about was, um, you know, and what. Um, there was some coaching to be done too for some of the leaders. Right. They were. We were challenging them to look at things differently today than they had yesterday and the day before for all the reasons kind of that that Mark had talked about. Um, so there was this coaching element and that's where Mark and I just, I mean we were. I always say to him, I think in every meeting is like, I'm like, say a little bit more because I need to do this mind meld with him constantly. Right. And um, and so that to me that's the most critical piece of this is I am just aligned with his thought processes. So I can leave the conversation. We have pivot and make sure it's all being kind of, you know, executed. Did I, Mark M. Is that fair?

Speaker A: Was it.

Speaker D: Did I leave anything out?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's very accurate. Very accurate.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, April, I'm going to put you on the spot, embarrass Mark for a minute.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker C: but I'm wondering how much of you being able to accomplish as much as you did so quickly came from the fact that Mark does not. He is truly a level five leader. He. He does not have an ego. It is not about him. He's got a ton of humility. He wants the organization to succeed. He wants everybody in his organization to succeed. This isn't about him posturing or maintaining a particular image. And I'm, uh, I'm putting you on the spot because I'm guessing that isn't the norm. You don't usually run into that. And did that. How much did that make things a little bit easier for you?

Speaker D: I'm so glad you brought that up. And I think that was the thought that escaped me a minute ago was Mark is very. I'm going to start with just very self aware. And he came in telling me, April, here's what I'm not good at. Like, here's the things where my blog spots are. Here are the things where I need help. Like he just laid it right out there. The other thing I think that put the exclamation point on that was Cindy. I was able to take part in the accountability matrix when Metis went through it with for the visionary. It happened for the integrator role before I arrived on scene But Mark invited me in to be a part of that process and some eyes and ears and participate, you know, kind of thing. And again, it became very apparent that Mark's ego was parked way over there. And he, he, he said, I want to do the right thing for the company. But he didn't just say it, he meant it. And that's the way he operated and was very. And he would challenge people like check me, you know, some of your team. He'd say, check me. Does that make sense? He'd look at me, April, you've been working with me for, you know, a month or so now is check me like where. You know, it's how. Tell me if you think I'm saying this right or if I'm, you know, far afield. I agree with you, is that is um, unique. Um, but I think, I think part of what helped is Mark going through that process way back when with you guys probably too. So he knew kind of what that looked like and why being so open, honest, transparent was key so that you can align your visionary. Right. With your integrator and they do this and not, uh, you know, this. Right.

Speaker C: So, and that is funny because we always start with the visionary and then we do the integrator. But we were convinced this year he's like, the visionary is still the same visionary, wants to be at the beach. And I got a couple of these other things I'm dealing with. So we went in and we dove into the integrator role and he goes, you know, we really do need to revisit what the visionary is supposed to, to be.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Ah. And so there aren't too many visionaries who are open for that type to tier. It's, it's a pretty vulnerable position to put yourself.

Speaker D: It, it is. And I think it's key for um, an integrator also to be very non judgmental. I mean like Mark and I have conversations is Mark. I'm like, I'm asking this question not as a leading question or not as a good, bad. I'm, I'm asking the question to understand and then to help you kind of propel you forward. And you know, I think we've all worked with people that are in roles like this that can be a little judgmental. Well, that's not the way I would do it. Or that's not the way you should do it. That's not the way you should think about it is that can also put visionaries and you know, your partners kind of on edge and a little hope they can hold things close to the vest as a result of that. And so there's also a vulnerability I think, for your integrators is, is important as well. But yeah, yeah, I'm gonna put Mark in a class by himself.

Speaker B: Well, uh, M. Mark, Mark, can you speak to that in terms of like, what mindset did you bring to this integrator relationship with April and you know, and how would you describe what she, what she was able to do for you and the business when she came on board?

Speaker A: Well, I, I knew that the success an integrator can have is going to translate to the company being successful. And I know part of that was we've got to make sure that the accountability matrix fits, you know, with the, uh, with what's, um, what they're responsible for, what's beneath them and then what's also above. And, and so I, I knew both sides of the coin needed, uh, to be identified and in place. And when we went through the, the visionary accountability matrix, it's like, we're going to go through this matrix. Everybody needs to be very transparent and open about this. And then once we go through that, ah, then I'm going to look at the role and decide do I want that role or not.

Speaker D: You said that multiple times. You were like, quite frank frankly. And you. And can I even say do I want it and am I the right person for it? Right, Mark, you even said that.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. Yeah, that's right. Um, because I knew if the, if the right visionary wasn't in there, then it was going to greatly undermine the integrator, you know, ability to get things done. And then of course that would, that would greatly negatively impact the success of the company.

Speaker C: Company.

Speaker B: And what, um, and, and how would you describe what April came in and she was doing or she has been doing for you, for the team, for the business?

Speaker A: You know, the, the awesome thing about her coming in, she was, you know, did, uh, wasn't emotionally, you know, involved with the company. Um, she could, you know, having been in that role with multiple companies, she could quickly identify, um, and assess our leaders and figure out who, who needs coaching up, you know, who is good. What kind of coaching do they need? Are they open to coaching, you know, from somebody, from a, you know, somebody new, a stranger, um, uh, regardless of age too, and, and she was able to assess those things extremely quickly because she was the, you know, outsider coming in and of course, you know, your vision when you're coming in like that, you can see things that I would never see, you know, so it Was it was very helpful, uh, where she could quickly come in and assess things like that, which are uh, many times really difficult to figure out. Figure those out. Right.

Speaker B: Awesome. And let me ask you this. Well, I'll start with you Mark, since I'm speaking with you is how did, how did you and April know when it was time to start, you know, either looking for or picking the right long term, full time integrator?

Speaker A: Well, I think when April came in it was very apparent some of the challenges and issues we were dealing with and those were priority one. Uh, we, we need, we had to get those addressed. It was also time of the year where we're planning. Uh, we've gotta, we've gotta crank up new initiatives to address challenges we've got. And that took uh, probably two or three months. Yeah, three months or so to get a handle on those, get a uh, strategy and tactics in place and get those going. Then at that point that's when we could turn our sights on. Okay, let's, let's get back to um, you know, hiring a new coo

Speaker B: and I don't know, April or Cindy. Uh, you know, what was that, what was that process like? How did you find, how did you find the right person?

Speaker D: Well, I think again the work was done by Metis group to identify the type of person that we needed. And so then we went out to the market to try to find them. Um, our hr, um, director had narrowed it down to, you know, lots of, of lots and lots of resumes, but with the help of the assessments that we had done, had narrowed it down to a handful of candidates. Um, and I participated in that process pretty thoroughly. Right. So I vetted those five, you know, or six candidates and suggested to Mark, you know, the top candidates to kind of push on to him. Um, and then um, we did, you know, for those candidates we did a, um, again we went back to the Metis group and said tell us what. Wait, they, they took their individual assessments. Right. And how. And, and um, Cindy's crew allowed us to understand how well their, their individual assessments aligned with what indeed we wanted and needed. Um, it was really an impressive. It's the first time I had been exposed to the Metis group. Um, it was very, very impressive. Um, and I even, I said okay, so do me. How do I look compared? And so um, we found people better fit than me. So it was um. So that's the process that we went, went through. Mark, would you add anything else?

Speaker A: Yeah, I, I was going to say April really jumped in, took the bull by the Horns and said, you know, we've got to, we've got to talk to these five great candidates, otherwise we're going to lose them. So she jumped in, um, and it was great for her to do it because, you know, it's a little, it's a little, um, I don't know what the word I'm looking for. Um, maybe discomforting when, when you're, when a HR director who would be reporting to this integrator is interviewing the integrator. So. And you know, you've got to get somebody in there to, to sit through the resume. So the visionary, the CEO is not, not having to do all this because, you know, so it was awesome that April came in and she could give the real scoop on the job. She's like, I've been for three months, right?

Speaker B: I know what the right person looks like.

Speaker A: Let me tell you, Let me tell you what it's like, you know, and, and give the candidate some comfort. Um, you know, because April really didn't have a dog in the fight. She, she, she had the company at the, at her sole focus. It's like, okay, I need to take this from M5 candidates down to 2 or 3. And she did a very quick and great job of doing that.

Speaker B: That.

Speaker C: And we, um, when we using the assessments, by the time it gets to the candidate, there's four sciences that are involved. And nobody is going to be perfect when you're using four sciences. But if you know what the ideal is, the avatar, right. It's going to be perfect. There's nothing wrong with this. And then you can measure up. Um, someone coming in from the outside, if you go in eyes wide open, you know, maybe they've got some self awareness, maybe they, they have developed coping mechanisms or they know how to surround themselves with people who make up for their deficiencies, or maybe they're clueless and it's going to be a problem. So if you at least know where the gaps are and then our team can lead the executive team through. These are the questions you really need to ask and listen for these type of answers. Um, it allows you to go in eyes wide open. And then now that the new person's on board, Mark and I were supposed to circle back and talk about something we call the accountability system, which is for the first year, where every month our team member, our coach talks to the new integrator to say, how's everything going? And you know, in the beginning it's like, oh, this is awesome. Yeah, nobody's perfect. If you could wave a Magic wand. What would you change? Well, it's not a big deal yet, but, gosh, I wish Mark would. Okay, given Mark's profile, this is how you need to have that conversation with Mark. Same thing our team member calls Mark. How's everything going? Is the best thing ever. Sure. And then this is how to have that conversation. And then every quarter there's a same page meeting on steroids where our coach is sitting down with both of their accountability matrices or the job scorecards and saying what's changed or what needs to change for next quarter. If they're rolling out another new product, if they're doing something, priorities, percentage of time changes. How do we really stay on the same page? How do we make sure things don't fall between the cracks or there's duplication of effort. And so they, they really understand that good meeting rhythm, um, of, of staying in sync with each other the whole time. But our, our team member is never the intermediary. It's all about building that great communication and meeting rhythm between the two.

Speaker B: That's awesome. And April, how did you. How did you. And, well, and Mark and, and Laura, the new. That's the name of the new integrator, right?

Speaker D: That's correct.

Speaker B: So how did you guys, uh, like, how did you guys, uh, select her versus anybody else? And, and then, you know, after you did select her and she started, what, like, what was the process of determining what's the right transition process to transition April out of the seat and make it as smooth as possible and maintain momentum for bringing this new per. You know, for actually putting the new person into the role?

Speaker D: Yeah, I think the selection process is kind of what we're doing just talking about is candidate poll, narrowing it down, doing the individual assessments, aligning with the, um, you know, the, the avatar profile, um, having the conversations with Metis, getting the questions to ask as we went into the next round of interviews. Like, that's the process that we went through to select, um. And then Mark had a brilliant idea, and he had done this with the prior, um, integrator was an onboarding plan. Like giving them some time and Runway to really, before jumping into that seat is to really understand the business. And Mark, I'll hand it off to you because this was your, this was your baby and your brainchild. So go ahead, you can share.

Speaker A: Yeah, um, and I, I, I've gotten this idea from somebody else. So it was a, an onboarding plan two to three months where they sit down with many of the employees, do a deep dive on the processes, then Go out and visit a number of clients and really get a lay of the land firsthand. You know, they've been hearing from us what, what we thought the issues were and what the lay of the land and the competitive landscape. But you know, it's something different when they actually hear it themselves. And so at the size we're at, um, you know, the new COO can't interview everybody like the prior one, but they can meet with a number of people, a majority of the people, and really get a feel for that. Because, um, and also clients, because once they go in that role, you know, it's a hundred miles an hour and that's uh, that's when those things just don't get done. At that, at that point, it's like you are in it. So, um, we.

Speaker B: And if you hadn't had April or somebody fulfilling that role while that process is going on, you, you wouldn't have been able to do it. I mean, the other person would have been out already and that's right, I would have been.

Speaker A: You are in, in the row.

Speaker B: Go.

Speaker D: I'm done. Right, I'm done.

Speaker B: So, so April, like, uh, how did you determine like what the date of the official handoff is?

Speaker D: So this has been, um, you know, I always say you got a bob and weave, right? So we kind of have put together like a 90 day onboarding plan. Um, we selected a, I think a dynamo, um, person here. And so as she's going through it is she's finding things and ready to kind of jump in and um, you know, um, with some of this stuff. So while we thought it was going to be 90 days, I think it's going to be shorter. Um, and that's okay. That's okay. I don't think there's a right or wrong. The good news is as she and, and she and Mark and I now meet, you know, a couple times a week as well, is what she's saying is. Look guys, I, it's like um, if you wanted me to just ramp with the, you know, not doing anything, um, versus jumping in and being here, I think we're looking at a hybrid of the, the two. And so I think you just got of play that by ear, right, Based on the person, based on the company, based on a lot of different factors. And so that's what, um, that's what we've been doing is modifying that kind of as we go.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And Mark, let me ask you this last couple of questions here for you guys because we really tried to dive into this the Jackrabbit story and as deeply as we can. And I love these different perspectives because everybody has a different angle on it. But Mark, what I would ask you is that, you know, you, you, you went into this when Cindy told you about the idea of a fractional integrator was like, wow, there's such a thing. Right? And so if you're like, if, if you were, if you had the opportunity, what you do, I mean, in this recording, right, is to talk to other business owners, right, who are maybe in a situation like you were six months ago. Like, what, what, like what would you want them to, what would you want them to know? Like, they might be like, ah, uh, is this really a thing? Can this really work? Like, I don't know. What, what message would you want to, to leave the, the other business owners with?

Speaker A: Yeah, I, um, I've got some, uh, uh, look back, you know, vision there. Um, I would say take it as an opportunity to reassess, um, because this is a key time to peel the onion back, get an understanding of all the things going on, you know, competitively, internally, um, and, and get some outside help so you can get some, uh, objectivity there. Um, because if, if we had had an internal candidate that was just going to slide right in the row, we would be, ah, at a big deficit, um, and we would not have the vision that we have now to really take the company forward. So I would say if you have, you know, if you're transitioning, definitely go through the rebuilding of the accountability matrix of both roles, um, and bringing somebody in from the outside to identify other issues. Because then at that point you can put together, you know, a strategy and a tactical plan that's going to work very efficiently. If we had gone on, based on assumptions before this transition started, um, I don't like thinking about where we would be. We'd probably still be, you know what I would say, kind of stuck in the mud at that point. Just like, no, no.

Speaker B: And one of the takeaways I hear from that, obviously to work with someone like the Metis group, like, to really like, dive in and identify what's the future that I, as a visionary, that I, as an owner want to be able to do, and my company honestly needs and wants me to do if I'm going to fulfill the mission and the purpose of the organization, uh, and identify with much more granularity what the role of the integrator or the COO is going to be. And um, Cindy, like, I guess what's your, like from this whole experience here that we're kind of now transitioning over to the, to, to the new long term integrator. What, like what's your takeaways or learnings from this, uh, from this scenario that you would take maybe for other, you know, for business owners?

Speaker C: Well, there's, there's two different impressions that I got. One, one, in this particular situation where an existing person is going to be leaving and having an interim, uh, integrator is huge because then the organization neither feels overwhelmed and I can't, I can't even think of bringing in another integrator because I got all this stuff I got to do or oh my God, we just need somebody who can fog a mirror because I got, I don't want to do this. Somebody's got to do it. So anybody, anybody's going to be better than me doing it, right? And so then they, they wind up with any, anybody. Um, so this is a logical step. I think the other times we're working with people who are thinking of bringing on their first time integrator ever and the first thing that you usually hear is I'm not even sure this is a full time job. All right, let's go through the definition phase, right? Let's look at what you're supposed to be doing and what you should be doing and then what we need out of this role, you should be able to figure out pretty quickly if it's really a full time job and it, and uh, you know, it always is, right? Because there's a whole bunch of things that even when Mark was integrator that Mark wasn't doing because Mark didn't want to do. So that's, that's, that's, we all do. But I think also having an interim integrator come in when you've never had one before and you could understand the power that it brings, that true rocket fuel that it brings to the organization when that person is helped driving the visionaries ideas and perspectives. And there's, there's another person with whom you can say, check me on this, right? There's somebody else who's in it for the business and not for themselves. I think that can give the visionary, um, just a real sense of relief, peace of mind going into this long term commitment, um, seeing how powerful it can be on a fractional or interim basis.

Speaker A: And Ben, I would also add that it's, it's also an opportunity to redesign the organization or redesign parts of it and you know, having a third party come in and can check you on that or, or, or point it out is another big opportunity. I would say to a business owner that take the time, step back and see what other things can be done like that. Because it's a perfect opportunity to do it then. Mhm.

Speaker B: Right. That's amazing. And Cindy, to what. And then Cindy to what you're saying as well. It's, it's, it's an opportunity to see like, you know, because if they've never had a real integrator before, it's like, oh, that's what that looks like. Because you know, you hear about it in sessions or in books, you'd be like, does that really even exist? It sounds kind of pretend. Like you know, someone can really like drive the business. You could trust them. Like your leadership team boards to them, not you. They're not just a glorified, uh, secretary or chief of staff. I mean, I mean it's just hard to picture what a high caliber person looks like and you know, to rely on and helping lead the company and drive things forward. And so it's uh, as you said, Cindy, it's kind of an opportunity to say like, oh, that's what that looks like. Okay. Like you said, now I could commit to that long term role because now I have a picture on my mind that I've experienced, not just that I've heard about, about what that looks like. April, uh, to conclude with you, what you know, you know, from your experiences with Jackrabbit, what you've seen, what you've experienced, you know, what's your takeaway? I guess for business owners who might be listening to or watching this.

Speaker D: Yeah, it's almost a summary of what you, everybody just said. Right. Is as you were talking, Ben, I was thinking about another client that I have who never had an integrator before. And we're almost probably, you know, nine months in and I think she's thinking, wow, maybe, maybe I should transition to now to full time. Like I get this now, I get what the power could be, um, is but I think to Mark's point, um too is whenever you're going through a transition such as this, taking the time, I mean that's what this fractional, um, integrator role allowed Mark to do, was take the time, not be rushed to Cindy's point, and just put a warm body in it is taking the time, step back, assess, rethink everything that you think you know and take this opportunity, um, to get back on the path of the right strategy. I think that's the key takeaways for sure.

Speaker B: Awesome. Thank you all so much I appreciate you sharing. Uh, Mark, your story with Jackrabbit, April and Cindy. Your stories and your unique perspectives on the whole journey on bringing in the right kind of integrator and all the different phases of that. In this case, it happens to be replacing somebody who there full time previously. Like Cindy said, there's some instances where we're bringing in an outside integrator for the first time. But, um, but either way, I think, I think this story, I think this experience is very valuable because it's a real experience. It's a real story from a real business owner. Um, and so I, I just, I'm super grateful for you guys making the time and telling the story.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, my pleasure.

Speaker C: Yes, for sure. Thanks for inviting us.

Speaker D: Yeah, thanks, Ben.

Speaker B: Thank you. And everybody else, we'll see you on the other side. Thanks.

Speaker A: You're listening to Win Win, an entrepreneurial community with your host, Ben Wolf.