Why Smart Marketers Copy: Using Competitive Insights the Right Way

Speaker A: Winning is crazy. Your opportunity, your opportunity, your opportunity. There are platforms that keep tabs on ads that are in the ad library one day and then disappear. And that could be very useful because it's like, well, sometimes they delete it for innocent purposes, but sometimes they not deleting it for innocent purposes. If you wanted to open a donut shop, what people jump to is they say, oh, we can't just do donuts. Those guys only do donuts. We're going to do coffee and we're going to sell hot dogs out the back. No, no, no, no, no. Just copy it. If you literally copy it, you will also have a successful business. Pay attention to the quieter companies. Like in other words, if everybody wants to pay attention to what's going on on TikTok. But I think you'd be very surprised at the uh, the videos on YouTube that get 400 views. Um, but those 400 views are from people who are really, really important. But zig. While others are zagging, everybody else is going to this extremely short form. Short form content because they're going after engagement and likes and blah blah, blah. Ah. And so if one is young and they're just starting out in this space, uh, don't go that direction. Everybody's going that direction. Go the other direction. Go, go more towards long form. Especially when it comes like B2B marketing. If you're a marketer, your job is to get leads. Your job is not to get uh, is not to get views or likes or any of these other things. Those are. So that's what I think is extremely important, especially for a young marketer, especially for someone new to the to marketing in general is to think about what the job is.

Speaker B: Hello and welcome to the We Marketers podcast. I'm Andrew and uh, today we're diving into super practical and often overlooked topic how to use competitive insights in marketing. And my today's guest knows this space ways inside out. Taylor, trustee has been building things online since he was 13. From teaching himself to code to launching his first e commerce business at 19. Taylor is the co founder and chief revenue officer at NewsLever, a platform used by more than 24,000 people at companies like Nasdaq, Deloitte and many others. And on top of that, Taylor co hosts a successful podcast for entrepreneurs titled for founder Secrets. Uh, Taylor, happy to have you today and can you give uh, an overview of your background and share your story?

Speaker A: Yeah. What an intro. Thanks uh, for having me Andrew. I, yeah, just a computer nerd, right? Like I, I liked computer. I Still love computers. I love all things technical. I'm the guy wearing the meta glasses, uh, as is normal, you know, kind of, uh, sunglasses. Um, but I've, I've always liked computers. I've liked m. You know what I liked about coding as a teenager was uh, the ability to type things into a screen and then you see a result. Right. That kind of engineering mind. I'm definitely not an engineer, but that, that, that mindset has, I think served me well. Right. So it's, it's um, uh, when I was younger I applied it to things like coding. Um, and nowadays it's applied more towards how we do marketing or how, how we run the business or how do you scale a business, um, how do you, you know, how do you raise money? All those things, uh, I think are the fundamentals, which by the way, everybody's talking about how AI is going to take coding jobs and how it's going to take all these things. And I tell everybody young, I say, no, no, no, no, don't believe any of that. Like the, the best things you can learn are how, um, are how to code. Because you learn the fundamental building blocks of how computers work, which is not going to change. It's only become more important. I know I didn't answer your question, but, uh, there you go.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And um, to this point about uh, AI taking our jobs, I visited, uh, we are developers conference. This is the biggest conference for developers in Europe, in Berlin. And uh, uh, their opening keynote was um, by CEO of GitHub. And uh, they started live coding session. They wanted in live mode to adjust some game or some code of some game or something like that. And when he started doing this, um, I think he didn't handle this. So he started using their platform and constantly there was an error. Error. I think this is great. Uh, um, to your point that AI still is not there to steal our jobs.

Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, the work just changes, right? The type of work. Look, I use Lovable every day. I spent five hours in it yesterday. I'm going to be building some tools in it today. I use these tools every single day, uh, at length. And now we don't put these things into production. Right. A lot of these tools are for the things that I'm doing as part of our marketing or emails or whatnot that are things that I would have done with spreadsheets or whatnot. But I'm, you know, I'm using these tools every day and they're definitely getting better. Um, but they're not, they're nowhere near, uh, even a mid level engineer. Um, maybe they'll get there one day, but if they do, then the engineers just have to get better. So uh, yeah, I'm very pro tech. I think that this stuff will hopefully m make life better for all of us.

Speaker B: At some point of your career, you started marketing, uh, agency and then uh, sold it. And uh, now you're co founder of uh, news Lever. Uh, could you tell more about uh, this shift and how you ended up uh, working with competitive, uh, competitive insights.

Speaker A: When I was young, I read too much. Jason Freed. You know Jason Freed, 37, signals basecamp guy.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: Do you know who that is? Okay, so. So uh, they published this book and um, this was in what like 2006, I'm looking up. Um, uh, so they published this book about work. I think it was called Rework. Yeah, there it is. So in 2010 they published rework, um, but in 2006 they published this book called Getting Real. And I read all those books when I was, when I was younger and it made me want to run a software company. So I wanted to run like a real tech company. Um, but at the time I lived in Kentucky. There really weren't any tech companies in Kentucky. I didn't know anybody doing this. And, and uh, a friend, a colleague asked if I wanted to start this web agency. So I started that when I was uh. 20. Right, 20, yeah, because it had the E Commerce company from when I was 19 to 20, um, that also found it with two other guys. So I kind of was asked at a breakfast, hey, you want to start this company? I thought it would last six months. It lasted 12 years. Um, and, and you know, it was a great, it was a great run. Uh, but I never really wanted to be in the agency business. I always wanted to be in the software business. I always wanted to run a software company. And once, once one is in an agency business. I ended up buying out my partner after four years. I was the only owner for the last eight. It's kind of hard to get out of it, right, because you're always in these contracts. We did big projects, we did six to 12 month projects. There were hundreds of thousands or sometimes millions of dollars. Um, so it's very hard to unwind something like that. So over time it really started to feel like a trap. And uh, these guys in Boston that we had worked with, uh, on different accounts offered to come in and buy it. And I said, uh, sure, yeah, that'd be great. And so that was in 2018. And then we started this company, which is now called News Lever, it used to be called Signal insights, uh, in 2019. And, um, at the end of 2019. And yeah, it's been fun. So in terms of how we started it, I. In 20 years ago, I had this idea for starting, for tracking competitors. We used to track my competitors in the agency business and my clients competitors on social media. So we would say, okay, well, what are the competitors posting on Facebook? Instagram wasn't really big for companies back then, but, you know, Facebook, LinkedIn, what are they doing on their websites? What kind of emails are they sending out? Uh, the ads that they're running. So this was the early idea. I built like this kind of crappy prototype and, um, and kind of showed it around to some of our, uh, to some of my clients in that business. That business was called Blackstone Media. I called the early version Blackstone Intel. Uh, and some of my clients were like, yeah, that looks cool, we'd buy it. But I was running an agency, right? I couldn't have time to build this kind of side thing. Um, but, but, but I just always kept it in the back of my head. Now when I sold the business, I added a carve out that said Taylor retains all rights to Blackstone Intel. And the people who bought it were like, what the hell is Blackstone Intel? Um, because it wasn't anything, right? It was just an idea. But I wanted to make sure I covered my bases in case we started the business. Um, and then I went and went to some of my old clients and said, hey, if I built this, I had a little prototype built for what? This? It was originally a report, um, for competitive insights. And I went to some of my former clients and said, hey, if I built this, would you buy it? And Toyota, who was my largest client in my last business, there's still a client in this one today, said, yeah, I'd buy it right now. I was like, no, no, it's not real. It's just prototype. Um, but that gave me the confidence to. Well, if they'd buy it, uh, I think others would.

Speaker B: Uh, let's give our listeners, who are mainly in house, uh, marketers, a little bit, um, overview of what are competitive insights and uh, what do we actually mean when we are talking about competitive insights and how they can be useful?

Speaker A: Yeah, so there's a big world of competitive insights, right? So, um, there are, uh, kind of secret shopper businesses that have been around for a long time, if you're familiar with those. I have a friend who started and Sold one of those companies. Um, you know, so if you're in the grocery business or you're in retailers, then they let you know like what your competitors are doing in retail stores. Those have been around for a long time and very, very well established. And then a lot of people, when they think, if you're in B2B and you think of competitive intelligence, it's what you find out when you go to the trade shows, right? You know, it's the information. Maybe you go to the parties and you're friends with a lot of the people in the industries. I'm friends with a lot of agency owners and now tech people. And you just hear things, right? So that is competitive intelligence. And frankly, that's wonderful competitive intelligence if you have friends in the space. So that's the best stuff. But that's hard to get. And as, uh, you know, maybe you don't have time to go to all the conferences, you don't have time to do these types of things. So the kind of next level down is to that. People sign up for Google Alerts, right? So you sign up for Google Alerts, everybody's tried them. They, they've been around for 15 years at this point. They haven't changed at all. Um, and uh, they could be good, right? If you have a very unique company name, uh, or your personal name is very unique, you don't share a name of the celebrity, you don't share a name of somebody else, they work perfectly fine. It works perfectly fine. Google has obviously crawled the whole web. They continue to. And so Google Alerts can work quite fine. The challenge is that Google Alerts, if you have a kind of common name or if your company name is, is not super unique, right? If you're called ABC roofing, but there's 20 ABC roofings, you're gonna have junk and Google Alerts. And then if you're a large company, if you're somebody like the Toyotas of the world, your Google Alerts are complete junk because there's everybody trying to write fake industry market reports and fake industry forecasts about you and about your industry. So they're just junk, they're useless, um, because the good stuff's in there, but there's so much junk that people just ignore Google Alerts over time. So that's really at our cor. What news lever is, is you take, okay, all the good stuff out of Google Alerts, uh, uh, get rid of all the junk. We trained a whole bunch of machine learning models over the years to filter that junk out and Then add on things that Google Alerts doesn't have. So you get the news, Google Alerts. But then add in all the social posts for what the competitors are doing. You know YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, uh, and um, and then TikTok. Now uh, score all those things so you could see not just what people are posting on social media, but score them. Compare it to that company's prior activity so that your giant competitors aren't scored on the same level as your tiny ones. Um, add all your own information in there so you could see yourselves, uh, but also supplement it with ads. Now you could see what kind of ads the competitors are running. When do they launch something new? When do they stop running an ad? You could track email newsletters in there. So what kind of emails are they sending out? Uh, to their, to their email list. And then it keeps tabs on the company websites. So that, that's the kind of information uh, that we collect on an ongoing basis and then we send it in a daily digest. So we send it to people every single day, um, tens of thousands of them a day. So that's what uh, that, that's really what the product is.

Speaker B: Yeah, many companies uh, they just don't use such kinds of tools I think for, for, for various reasons. First they just, you don't know that such tools exist. And uh, also it's a um, money related problem. Um, for example for small companies it may be not uh, justifiable to use such tools. So from your experience, uh, from which size of the company it makes sense to use such tools. Or maybe it more like industry related things. Think like B2B or E commerce. Uh, what's your take on this?

Speaker A: Yeah, so a lot of our clients are B2B. Right. Um, and in terms of size it starts at around 50 employees, but. Mhm. But really the average kind of size is about 500 employees up to 20,000 or so. Because when, when you're too small to your point, it's not worth the money. Right. You know, too small is just not worth it. And then if, if you're, if you're super big, you know, my wife works at a publicly traded company. If you're at a, they have people who do some of these things. Right. And they're also using tools like a meltwater, uh, or scission. So there are some heavy duty uh, listening tools who go deeper and further than we do. Right. Where if you're Pepsi then your needs are far beyond what somebody like you want. Multiple languages, you're in. There's A crisis element. Uh, because in some of these businesses there's kind of just constant crises, people talking about things, different countries, that's far beyond what we do. Right. So uh, our kind of sweet spot is in that, let's say 50 employees up to, let's call it 5,000. In terms of industries, we're in basically every industry. We're not in the government sector but uh, tons of healthcare, tons of technology, um, a lot of B2B. But it is like 45% of my clients are B2C. So, so there are still a lot of consumer clients in there. Um, uh, but everybody from, you know, NASDAQ to Toyota, material handling to uh, actually forget a lot of them nowadays. Airbus, um, is a big client, um, Deloitte. So those are, that kind of gives you a feel. But, but really our bread and butter clients are the 400 person transformer, uh, company that makes the transformers outside your house. Like that's really what a lot of our clients are doing. And they're using us to track competitors because they may see these people at trade shows, to my point earlier, but they want to know on a day to day basis to one of them get acquired, did they launch a new product, did they hire a new cmo, did their board fire somebody? Um, uh, because this is very, very useful. And B2B, because you're talking to the same customers as them every day, right? Your sales team is interacting and you're trying to win their accounts. And so if you learn something about, hey, did you hear about that new lawsuit about you know, just putting it out there, I don't know if you heard, I know you do business with them, that could be very useful. Right? Um, so that's like the big kind of highlighting things but on a day to day basis, knowing what's working for them on social media. Hey, one of our competitors has started running YouTube campaigns and they're doing great, right? They're getting a lot of traction, they're publishing these kinds of videos. Maybe we could do something like that. So those are kind of the two big use cases. Keeping on tab, keeping tabs with what's going on in the industry. For sure. That's kind of like the Google Alerts equivalent, um, but also ideation. So it's, hey, let's look at like what's really working and using that in our kind of monthly brainstorming meetings for a content calendar or for what's next for us.

Speaker B: Uh, what is the right way to use competitive insights? I mean not to just copy, copy, uh, your Competitors, because this is what, uh, many companies do. They see someone launched, uh, the campaign, let's do the same. Let's do the same campaign, same word and some same messaging. Uh, in your opinion, how to do this correctly?

Speaker A: I mean, I have a lot of opinions on this. You know, I used to be, used to be these people who created campaigns for clients. Um, few things. One, copying works great. There's no like moral, oh, don't do that. That's so. Nah, I don't believe in any of that. Everybody copies each other. Uh, copying works. And uh, so that's one thing. Right now do you directly copy their exact tone and. No, but I think copying ideas is very useful. And I think that noticing what's working for each of the competitors or what's not working, uh, is very, very useful. So that's one thing. The other thing is that um, I view marketing and uh, I view sales and all this as we're input output machines. So in other words, like, my outputs are determined based on what I consume, right? It's based on what am I following on social media, when I open up the feeds on my phone, what emails am I getting, who am I talking to at the trade shows, what podcasts am I listening to. So the inputs determine what ideas I come up with, right? And so if I, as a marketer, if I'm in charge of creating the outputs, right, I'm in charge of creating outputs for a company, then I need to sanitize and create good inputs. And so I say this because, uh, platforms like newsletter, we're not the only ones. But, but ways like this where you can bring in what's working and the high quality things for your competitors or what's working in the industry or even other industries will lead to better outputs. It will lead to better ideas. And there are other ways of doing it, right? You can listen to great podcasts like yours. So there are other ways of kind of bringing in these high quality inputs, but I think it's really, really important and people skip to, well, don't copy. Okay, uh, fine, don't copy. But do create a way of bringing in high quality inputs so that your mind is seeing what's interesting to you or something that's new to you, so that when you come up with new Ideas, if you're Mr. Or Ms. Marketer, um, that they'll be good ones and they'll be new and they'll be different from what others are seeing. Um, that's why we also encourage people to not only track their direct competitors so don't just track the eight companies in your space, but maybe track some that are outside the space or a little bit different so that you can, um, bring in those new inputs. I know I keep saying that, but that's the way I see it.

Speaker B: Great that you shared this. Now it's such a relief for me. I will just go copy, copy, copy everybody, man.

Speaker A: Do it.

Speaker B: I will just do

Speaker A: works. Now there are some spaces. I was listening to this podcast, to my point about podcast, I was listening to this podcast where it was like, people are afraid to copy. And he gave this very compelling argument that more people should copy. Like, in other words, if you see the donut shop that's downstairs from you and you're like, man, they are killing it every day. They have this huge line and they sell the best donuts in town. Okay, if you wanted to open a donut shop, what people jump to is they say, oh, we can't just do donuts. Those guys only do donuts. We're going to do coffee and we're going to sell hot dogs out the back and no, no, no, no, no. Just copy it. If you literally copy it, you will also have a successful business. And that's what so much a business is. My mom runs a painting company. She paints just like everybody else. But, but it's a, it's, it's the way she does it, right? So she copied kind of the 95% but, but then added her own flair because she's a female owned business and it's pink and these types of things. But at the end of the day, it's a painting business, right? It's copying.

Speaker B: And a, um, very related question, but from a little bit other side, uh, what mistakes, um, do marketers usually do from your point of view, uh, when using competitive insights,

Speaker A: what mistakes do people do? Um, well, I think that they, uh. What mistakes? That's a good question. So. I think there are a few. So one is they over index to themselves. Like in other words, that there's an ego tied to their own work. And so it's very hard for them to look past. We are not doing well. And that's all ego, right? So it's all, oh, look, look how poorly ours are performing on Instagram versus the competitors. And it's like m. Okay, it's fine. Um, let's just pay attention to why the competitor. So in other words, they're so focused on like, well, why aren't we doing very well versus well, why are they doing well? Right? It's a It's a frame change very. And we're focused, very focused on their own work. Um, another element is that they don't have the ability to. And this is probably most common with the small companies. To your point earlier, they don't have the ability to actually do any of the work. Like, in other words, they're, they have no ability to create outputs. So they can only look at what the competitors are doing. They consume podcasts, they do all this, but they actually don't do any marketing. So they don't, um, or they don't have anybody on staff to do it. I mean, I tell people I do demos, dozens and dozens of demos a week, and, and we tell people who's going to kind of take action on this. And oftentimes we're talking to that person. Right. But if I'm talking to a business development person, I'm talking to the CEO. The CEO is not going to be writing the social media posts and doing these types of things. Who's going to be taking action? And so if there's not someone who's in charge of taking action and what are we going to do with this, then I think that that's oftentimes a big mistake. Now, the CEO, uh, and we have clients like this. They just, they're information junkies. They just like to know what's going on. They like newsletters. They pay for, some of them, um, and they pay for hours. And they just want to know what's going on. And that's fine. God bless you. Uh, but I think that for most of our clients, they need someone who's going to be in charge of taking action. They need somebody who's going to take in this information, analyze it, think about it, and then what are we going to do with this? Um, uh, so those are, I'd say two. I don't know if I'd call them mistakes, but those are two kind of missteps that we see maybe more come to mind as we go on.

Speaker B: There are pretty obvious metrics, uh, that we should track. I mean, competitor metrics like, uh, website traffic mentions and, uh, many others. But from your experience, are there any maybe unusual, uh, things we should consider when looking at our competitors? Unusual, unexpected, Interesting.

Speaker A: Yeah. So one of them is. So most marketers are familiar with the ad libraries. You know, you go look in the meta ad library of the Google TikTok, the other ad libraries, um, what the ad libraries won't show you is when a competitor deletes an ad, and competitor companies have figured this out. So they delete ads. So they stop showing up in the ad libraries. And it can be what is an unusual thing. So there are platforms like we do it, um, that keep tabs on ads that are in the ad library one day and then disappear. And that could be very useful because it's like, well, sometimes they delete it for innocent purposes, but sometimes they're not deleting it for innocent purposes. Um, so that, that's kind of an unusual one that seen like the number of ads that a competitor launches. And um, and so like what's the rate of launching new ads and closing ads? So, and uh, I could, I could look at somebody's ad platform and see probably how proficient they are at marketing or advertising just based on that. How many new ads are they launching at a time? How many, um, and how many have they stopped running over, let's say a seven or 30 day period. Um, so that's, that, that's like a proxy that I will use. Like it's not something we put in the platform. I mean it's part of the platform. But um, that's, that's an indicator that I'll use to see how active an industry is, is um, how often are they launching new ads. Anybody could run an ad on Meta or Google or what have you. This run the same ad for three years and maybe they put $2 million behind it. Um, that'd be unusual. But, but the, the, the, the, the, the, the industries where we see people are launching new ads and canceling ads all the time, um, those are very active industries, extremely competitive industries. The flip side of that is that I have clients and we will meet with people and they're in industries that you've never heard of. But these Companies all do $500 million a year and one company's running ads and they're very quiet. There's really no news. Um, the only social network anybody's Posting on is LinkedIn. Um, uh, and, and you look at that and you think, wow, this is, this is interesting. Like what a, I wonder if there's an opportunity to, for someone to come in and really, you know, create some havoc here. Uh, now maybe not like some of these industries are quiet because you know, there's four players who own 98% of the market and it's a waste of your time. But sometimes I think, wow, there's like real opportunity here. This is a real industry. They're big. Uh, and you know, one company running ads, et cetera. So those are kind of some of the things that Paying attention to.

Speaker B: Interesting, interesting. And I thought, um, yeah, it's, it's a very interesting angle that you shared. And I thought, uh, that these ads that are not actually running right now that were stopped, it's uh, it can be an indicator of which ads doesn't uh, work. I mean which content doesn't work 100%.

Speaker A: And there are different stoppings. Right, to your point. So somebody can delete an ad, they can pause an ad, they can stop an ad, they could restart the ad a day later, a month later, a year later. Um, uh, so there are different elements of this, right? They may have had a billing issue, their credit card maxed out or what have you. Um, so there are all kinds of reasons why ads could have stopped or what have you. But when somebody deletes an ad, it's no longer in the ad library at all. That's odd. Uh, it can be, isn't always, but it is just another one of those kind of signals.

Speaker B: How do marketers should start with choosing, um, the right competitive, uh, insights platform or tool for them? Um, what should they consider?

Speaker A: I think I'd consider what do you want and what are you doing now? So if someone is using Google Alerts and it works, then great, you know that, then that, that, that's it. And if you don't have, you know, if you don't have somebody who can help you with this. If like, if you don't have, um, if you're the only marketing person but you're also responsible for sales, which I see a lot, somebody's the director of sales and marketing. In my experience, 90% of that person's job is actually sales and 10% is marketing. Right. They do marketing two days a week or two days a month. Um, you don't need a platform like us. Now sometimes those people need a platform like us because they want to. Cause they don't have time to do marketing and they need kind of a reminder on a daily or weekly basis what's going on in the space. Um, uh, so that can be useful. But oftentimes they don't have the bandwidth or capacity to take action on those things to my earlier point. So where should they start in deciding what kind of platform to use is? Um, what's the goal? Um, and I would just try them. So a number like we have free trials, a number of them have free trials, um, and try them out and see what works best for you. In my experience these things work pretty quickly or they don't. Like, in other words, you're going to say that was really useful. That was great. I got some great insights out of that. I love using it. Um, uh, they work quickly or they don't. In my experience, you know, as a lot of things in life. Just try it out. Just try it and see, uh, see what you think.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Taylor, uh, to wrap up our conversation, what's one piece of advice would you give to marketers who just start, uh, who just started using competitive insights?

Speaker A: One piece of advice I give to marketers is um, pay attention to, pay attention to um, the quieter companies. Like in other words, everybody wants to pay attention to what's going on on TikTok. Like what are the huge TikTok trends or what are those. But that's. And that's fine like that, that's entertainment. Right? Um, but I think you'd be very surprised at the uh, the videos on YouTube that get 400 views. Um, but those 400 views are from people who are really, really important. And that is a very different metric than um, the raw number of views or what have you. So this is very difficult for a platform like ours or any platform to do. This is why a human in the middle is kind of important. Um, uh, but a video like a TikTok, well probably not a TikTok but probably like YouTube is doing great and B2B YouTube is like the underrated still even today underrate social platform. And, and so if we look at the types of content that are working well on YouTube, if you're in the tech business interviewing employees, um, you know with like a shaky iPhone, uh, works great. And um, also doing just kind of like screen shares where you're showcasing the product maybe with a client or with an employee. And that video. And this breaks all the metrics, this breaks like all the norms, right? That video is not 40 seconds long. That video is 40 minutes long. Right? An extremely long video that you're like, nobody's going to watch this. Yes, they may not, but zig while others are zagging, everybody else is going to this extremely short form. Short form content because they're going after engagement and likes and blah blah, blah. Uh, and so if one is young and they're just starting out in this space, uh, don't go that direction. Everybody's going that direction. Go the other direction. Go, go more towards long form, especially when it comes like B2B marketing because most experienced marketers are going to say there's no way we're going to make 40 minute video about a, you know, demo or what have you. So that That's, I mean, look, I've seen it work. Uh, and you won't get a lot of engagement, right? These videos are not going to get 100,000 views, but again, they might get 26 views, but they give you two leads. And that's really, at the end of the day, what we're here to do. Like if you're a marketer, your job is to get leads. Your job is not to get, uh, is not to get views or likes or any of these other things. Those are, those are nice. Those are vanity metrics. They can be good proxies for leads. But at the end of the day my job is not to get 5000 likes or whatever. My job is to get leads. So that's what I think is extremely important, especially for a young marketer, especially for someone new to the, to marketing in general, is to think about what the job is. And especially, especially when, you know, if you're, if you're a younger marketer. You probably don't remember the last economic downturn, right? 0809 I was working, I had my agency during that time. I remember it well. And the first thing to get caught at a lot of these companies is going to be marketing. So if you don't have the ability to tie marketing to sales and don't have the ability to tie it to real business generation goals, you're going to get fired. So, so it's thinking about how can I, how can I make these connections to leads into the salespeople? Um, and oftentimes not in every industry, but what we see is that uh, going for these kind of longer form videos or whatnot that could be boring but are valuable to those who spend the money, you know, the customers, uh, can, can be. So that would be an unusual insight. I would say.

Speaker B: It's a great, yeah, it's a great filter I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like for people who are, who are really interested potentially in your product for sure. Yeah. Great advice. Great advice. Taylor, uh, thanks a lot for joining me for this episode. What is the best way for our listeners to connect with you?

Speaker A: You uh, can find me@taylortrusty.com um, I'm on LinkedIn. It's trusty T R U S T Y. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn, Twitter, everywhere, but kind of everything's on TaylorTrusty.com you can find more information about news lever up there too.

Speaker B: I will add everything in the show notes. Uh, Taylor, thanks a lot for joining me today for sharing your wisdom, your insights and great energy. You brought to this episode. Uh, thank you and bye. Bye.

Speaker A: Thanks, Andrew. Appreciate it.