Leaders Don’t Need More Things to Do, They Need More Time to Think with Aimee Presnall

Adrienne Hornby: Well, thank you once again for joining me and Amy for today's conversation. If something Amy said landed for you, whether it was the line about needing more time to think or reflections about what's gets. If something Amy said landed for you, whether it was the line about needing more time to think or what gets lost when professional development stays at the level of a single workshop, I'd love for you to share this episode with another school leader or educator who needs to hear it.

Amy, third time's a charm. Thank you so much. Is it third? I think it's the third time you've been on.

I'm so lucky to have you on again. Aimee: you ⁓ wow. Thank you for having me for a third time. Yeah.

Adrienne Hornby: to talk to you. just keep inviting you on. It's our chance to catch up on life and on work. My pleasure.

So to kick us off, as always, I'd like to know what's something that you've been working on more recently or over time to support or look after your well-being. Aimee: Yeah, I love it. love it. Thanks for having me.

Adrienne Hornby: The show notes, including the link to Wellness, Amy's amazing Ted Talk and her own podcast, Reflection of School Leaders, are linked wherever you're listening. And if today's conversation has you reflecting on the kind of long arc development that your own leadership team needs, the kind that builds capacity and capability rather than just delivering content, I'd love to invite you to take a look at the Well-Led Schools Partnership Program. Aimee: Yeah, it's such a great question every time you ask it.

And when I listen to guess you have on it's always something I find so intriguing as to what it is that people are working on. Because as you and I know, and many listeners, it's ever evolving, it's ever changing, isn't it? There's peaks and troughs, there's ebbs and flows. Sometimes you feel like you're thriving and flourishing and other times you feel like, you know, it's not quite Adrienne Hornby: I'm once by the incredible Amy Presnell to talk about a concept that we as leaders know that we need, but rarely get to make space for.

Time to think. Stay tuned. You Aimee: as glorious as that. So I am recently returning from that leave with a little eight month old.

And, you know, if I really think about what it is that I've been trying to focus on, it's been my time investment. I am probably a bit of a prolific multitasker. And the more I learn about multitasking, the more I learn that, you know, it's just the cost of that on production is like 40 % switching between tasks and, you know, every interruption. Adrienne Hornby: It's a year-long partnership designed to give principals and their leadership teams the structure, the data and the thinking space to genuinely shift staff for being in school culture, not just talk about it.

You can find out more at adrianhornby.com.au forward slash school hyphen partnerships or book a clarity call directly on the site. Thanks so much for your time today and I'll see you in the next episode.

Today on the Well-Led Schools podcast, I'm joined by Amy Presnell, leadership coach, TEDx speaker, and founder of Wellnest. After more than 16 years in classrooms and leadership roles across Australia and internationally, Amy got tired of watching exceptional leaders run themselves into the ground, brilliant principles burning out, the same tired advice about self-care and resilience while the system kept demanding more. Aimee: takes like 23 or 28 minutes to get back on track to what it is that you were doing.

So I've really noticed that in myself switching between, you know, mom life, work life, partner life, family life, and actually probably not doing any of it really that well. So I've really been trying to be conscious of how it is that I'm investing my time. ⁓ Calendar blocking has been one strategy that's just been really helpful even in my personal life. Really trying to have it stack on things that help me be productive.

Adrienne Hornby: So she's built something different. Amy's approach is honest about what's broken in school leadership development and fiercely practical about fixing it. In today's conversation, we get into what most leaders feel in their bones, but rarely get to say and hear out loud. That leaders don't need more things to do, they need more time to think.

We talk about what gets crowded out when leaders are pulled in every direction. Aimee: has also been the other one from, you know, good old James Clear, which I reference in my work all the time, but you know, practice what you preach and start to embed it in my own. So, ⁓ it's something really basic, but it's just been resonating with me over the last couple of months is I just say to myself, think before I do. know that sounds really crazy, but just before I go to do something, just think for a second, Amy, like, is that the time to do it now?

Is that the, you know, the investment that you're trying to put in at that time? And just asking myself, think before do, because I think we're just so robotic. Adrienne Hornby: why one-off professional development rarely shifts anything, and what actually changes when leaders are given the space to develop the human skills of leading their people well. I absolutely loved this insightful episode, as always.

Love chatting with Amy. Can't wait for you to hear it. Aimee: And we just do a million and one things at once. So not sure if that made any sense to anyone that's listening about just trying to invest your time, but ⁓ yeah, just trying to be really intentional with my time has helped me feel ⁓ like I'm dealing with things better than perhaps a couple of months ago.

Adrienne Hornby: Good day. ⁓ yeah, that multitasking thing I was about to say as you were talking, how many hot cups of coffee have you left in the fridge or like somewhere weird? My husband is like, why is that thing left there? was like, I was trying to do too many things at once and I forgot where it was and what I was doing.

And that has now resulted in me losing the thing that I had in my hand two seconds ago. That's all we're doing is so important because it also allows us to stop being so reactive. Aimee: Hmmmm Yeah Hmm. Adrienne Hornby: And that is just where we land when we're not giving ourselves that space to truly think through the vision or the goal or how we'd handle it and trying to do too many things at once and becoming totally overwhelmed, isn't it?

Aimee: Absolutely. it's what I speak to leaders about all the time and it's nothing that can be necessarily consistent. It's something you've got to intentionally do. Otherwise you do become a bit robotic.

So yeah, that's what I've been working on. I'm definitely finding benefits from it for sure. ⁓ Adrienne Hornby: Yeah, I love that. All right, well, for those who don't know you as well as I do, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your work and the journey that's really led to where you are today?

Aimee: Yeah, absolutely. So I've been in education for 16 plus years as a teacher and a school leader and worked out pretty early in my leadership career that other leaders were struggling, including myself. But at the time, I was very new. So it was kind of what I thought expected and accepted that, you know, you're sort of drowning and you're like a duck, you know, with your legs scrambling underwater, but looking quite fine on the surface and I really quickly learned in middle leadership that other middle leaders and senior leaders weren't well.

⁓ You know, they weren't actually coping. And this was, you know, 15, 12 years ago. ⁓ And it just has ever evolved since then. And I just got to a point in my leadership career where I just felt like my passion for what I was doing was shifting.

And I knew that it was an industry and a sector that if your heart's not in it. it's not the place to be. You've got to have your heart in it to be the best version of yourself. And I just felt like that had gone, but I wanted to stay in education.

And so I upskilled myself in various things to start wellness and initially kicked it off to support staff well-being in schools. ⁓ And it has just over time, as businesses do, it's just shifted. And I've just realized that know, leaders need to be well themselves and to have that clarity themselves to be able to create the conditions for staff to thrive. And so I've just narrowed in, you know, in supporting leaders in schools.

And ⁓ I feel really passionate about that. And I know that, you know, if leaders can't see clearly, they can't lead clearly. And so we work through coaching capacity, workshops, leadership retreats and speaking events to empower them and encourage them to first and foremost, look after themselves. But also how is it that they get that clarity and build the conditions for their staff to thrive to get the positive team culture they're looking for.

Adrienne Hornby: It's such important work and being in this psychosocial risk assessment and safety space, something I've been thinking about a lot is how those who are in charge of addressing or improving staff psychosocial safety are often those ones who are impacted the most. And so they often get forgotten. in all of this is, know, who's looking after our leaders? Who's taking care of our leaders?

Who's responsible for their well-being? it the department or the network heads? I'd be interested to know how supported all of these leaders are feeling or is it that we have to set these personal boundaries or these practices, times of reflection, time to pause in place to ensure that we do that work really well for the benefit of staff, students and community. It's a huge weight to carry on our shoulders, isn't it?

Aimee: Mm-hmm. ⁓ absolutely. And as we're in a system that is just forever asking for more, our good old resources and demands just aren't aligning in any way. And we are forever, yeah, like hamsters on a wheel, just continuing to turn.

Adrienne Hornby: That awareness piece is really important. And linking back to your speaking work, I was very lucky to hear you speak at the TEDx education event up here on the Gold Coast. And your talk really landed on something that I think a lot of school leaders, particularly principals, feel it really, you know, they feel this in their bones, but they've never actually heard said out loud as bravely as you did. Can you take us back?

to the idea around your TED Talk, where it came from and why it matters so much to you and for leaders that you work with right now. Aimee: Yeah, absolutely. So the idea, you know, in some ways came from a single moment really early in my career, but it's just evolved over time and lived experience myself and now witnessing it in others is being tapped on the shoulder really early in my career to jump into a middle leadership ⁓ role. And not long after that sitting in my principal's office.

crying because what it was that he not just he but the school were expecting obviously of me as a little as a middle leader was to drive strategic direction. ⁓ And I just absolutely crumbled because there was so much going on ⁓ outside of even any strategic direction that I was trying to drive in my team the whole you know duties, parent meetings, managing conflicts amongst staff, obviously driving teaching and learning, bringing in new initiatives, all the things that you know, a forever to do teaching and learning at its core, doing all your marketing, all the things that just started to pile up.

And once I sat down to explain what it was that I was going to drive and what that vision was, I just realized that I actually hadn't given the time to actually sit and think how I was going to do that in the grade at the time that I was leading. And that always stuck with me. And it wasn't so much the chaos of the day at the time, but it was just this realization that I just couldn't see anything clearly. I knew I wasn't noticing things around me.

I knew the team weren't thriving. I knew that I wasn't across everything that I should have been. I knew that I wasn't driving what I should have been driving at the time. And it was just this moment that I will remember forever.

And when I was given the opportunity to do the TEDx talk and I really sat and thought about what message I wanted to share and what lived experience I could share, it was that, that there's just so much data that we gather in education now. We've got more data in our schools than we've ever had before. Yet I genuinely believe that our leaders are not okay. And that when our leaders are not okay, the people who need the most often feel it first.

⁓ And research as I shared in the Ted talk backs this up about, you know, principles and the status of their wellbeing in the country at the moment. ⁓ you know, lots of evidence-based practices and research out there that's sharing us that if a leader is not clear and hasn't got clarity and isn't well themselves, Adrienne Hornby: Mm-hmm. Aimee: then the ripple effect is significant. And I just feel really passionate that we're treating the shadow in education and we're not looking at the source.

Adrienne Hornby: Yes, I think you also make a really important point around ⁓ strategy and direction. So often we hear in schools is the leaders aren't even at a leadership level clear on that. And sometimes that's often when we all sort of go to the leadership team aren't aligned in their vision. But you're making this important inference to that is that If our leaders don't even have time to think about it at a school leadership level, how they're communicating that broader strategy out, then they're likely, or well, unlikely, thinking about it at their own personal or team level, because they don't have that time to be able to even process it or adapt that work to suit their team or their individual work.

Aimee: Mmm. Adrienne Hornby: And it's a real call to action for school leaders individually and that of course, the whole team level to plug in some of that time to really focus on that for their own self-efficacy as well. Aimee: Mmm. ⁓ absolutely.

And this whole idea of tunnel vision. So when you are so depleted, you do have this sense of tunnel vision. And so I think it's sometimes I speak to leaders and they think they've been really clear and they think that everyone is on the same page and everyone has understood it. And we mentioned it, you know, at the, professional development at the beginning of the year, and it's only term two.

And, but it's just that realization that actually we have to keep referring back to the vision. And that's your number one thing that you're working on, but staff are dealing with, you know, 21 other things at the same time that their role is not to drive that vision. And so they hear it once and then it kind of comes in one ear, goes out the other, and that's okay. That's to be expected.

It's just that reference that we need to keep coming back to. So I think there are leaders out there that do try or do feel like they have got that clarity themselves, but the curiosity lens of actually how clear you've been and actually trying to observe patterns and behaviors and language of staff. is often the catalyst for you to realize maybe I actually haven't been as clear as I thought I was, rather than assumption or judgment that well, I've said it once, surely they remember it.

So I think, you know, it's obviously like everything, it's multi dimensional, it's multi complex, it's got many layers. ⁓ But clarity is key. And it can be really, really hard to get and then even harder to express and obviously get people to own that and buy in. Adrienne Hornby: Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah, the conversations taking me back to early in my leadership, when at the end of the year, or as you were doing sort of your report on your strap plan, our principal would be like, okay, well linked to that initiative, like what have you been doing? And I remember one year listing out so many things that I'd done or the team had done on my working committee had done like actions, but then the outcomes column was never quite as full. Aimee: Mm.

Adrienne Hornby: So it's a real reminder that as leaders, can constantly be doing things, doing stuff, getting our team to deliver something or put something together. But is it actually leading to an outcome? Aimee: It's kind of the line so beautifully to all the tick box activities, the things that schools or leaders do because the system told them to or sort of part of that process, but it's actually got no purpose. So, so what is the point of doing it?

And often it is those good growth plans, professional development plans, you know, what is it that you're hoping to achieve? And as you said, linking it to a strategic, yeah, it's, yeah, I'm with you there. It's, it's, and again, schools are, you know, in and around systems and Adrienne Hornby: Yeah. Aimee: there's an expectation of what it is that they're producing or what it is that they're expected to do in of the procedures and policies it does it crowds that time and I know we're going to talk about time soon but it's a good reflection and a curiosity point to just stop and pause for a second.

Adrienne Hornby: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think I raise it because before we even go into finding more time to do what we need to do and to think and to plan and to reflect, maybe we could win back a bit of time by not doing so many things that don't actually get us to the end result that we're looking for. So really having a good hard think in the time that we're about to talk about carving out around, and I think back to when I had Brendan Baker on my podcast, God, at the very beginning.

Aimee: Mmm. Mm. Mm-mm. Adrienne Hornby: He was all about change and culture change.

And he said, your end goal when you're putting together any action plan or any strategy should be to do the least amount of work to get the most benefit. And as middle leaders in particular, I think we're constantly just trying to be doing something all the time because we think we need to. And really, if we were thinking long and hard about what we were actually planning to embed and then roll out. We might actually save ourselves a lot of that added stress and just do some of those basic things really well.

Aimee: Absolutely, absolutely. At the beginning of each year, we have a little quote or a little theme that we sort of run each year. And last year, it was getting back to basics. So every workshop we ran, every speaking event, every coaching call was always encouraging us to just get back to basics.

⁓ Because at the end of the day, as you said, we're often filling that time doing things that ⁓ if we actually stopped and paused could be done quicker, easier or not done at all for the same app. Adrienne Hornby: Yeah, absolutely. When you look at the wellbeing of school leaders, and especially those that you work with as well, right across Australia and internationally, what do you see? What's the reality of the role that we're not actually talking about enough?

Aimee: Mmm. The roles changed and I think we're a bit stuck in what it used to be or what we want it to be. And if we actually look at the reality of the role of a leader in a school these days, it's very different to what it used to be. And I think the ideal versus the reality is the greatest challenge.

I think I actually recently have just put a couple of principal job ads into Claude. and just asked it like, what is this role actually asking of me to do? You know, if I was to apply for this job, what actually is this role? And it spat out obviously a bunch of things and in it there was no link to teaching and learning.

And when you know, we look at data, especially from the Australian Catholic University recently and the principal wellbeing data that they recently ⁓ did last year, it said that the second greatest stressor for principals is the lack of time to give to teaching and learning. And I just challenge that a little bit because I think it's almost that reality versus the dream of what the role is. And I think it is shifting and changing and we've either got to go with that shift and change and accept it and change our mindset into what actually is the role at a principal executive level ⁓ these days in education, especially in certain systems, because I feel like there's a lot of tension between the role.

⁓ And that's to me is the underlying, if I really, really think about if I could challenge it, that's at the end of the day, what I'm saying the most is the reality versus the dream or the reality versus what it used to be. And that visible side of the hours and the data that we're getting back, the working hours, the depletion and all that visual things that we see and we hear about a lot, but why? Like I just keep asking kind of those five eyes, but why, but why, but why, but why?

And I just keep digging down to, the identity of a principle I think has changed. And I'm just not sure that we're transitioning with our mindset and that identity ⁓ as the roles evolve. Adrienne Hornby: Yeah, but I think it's true for all roles in education. Like you even think about how much a teacher role has changed.

And so then definitely at a leadership level, everything has pivoted a lot and the resources and the training and like you said, the time to engage in the training and the coaching and all of those things to be able to Aimee: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Adrienne Hornby: meet those current needs and probably back in a headspace of how it used to be and our staff expecting that of us.

It's very multi-layered. Aimee: Hmm, extremely multi layered. I think that's, you know, I think there's a lot of research, there's a lot of media, there's a lot out there around, you know, the well being of our leaders and the reality of the roles. And I, I see that every day as well.

But I really tried to think about this one as to, you know, what, where I feel like the biggest tension is, and that's probably the one that's challenged the most at the moment. Adrienne Hornby: Hmm. And what really needs to change to be able to see improvements in that, you know, how long there's a piece of string, but you've got a really great solution that I love. So you really spoke about leaders.

Simply it sounds simple. It's simple, but not simple. All it wrapped up into one more time to think, not more time to do. And like we said, adding to that endless to do list, that distinction feels really important.

What Aimee: Hmm? Hmm? Yeah. Mmm.

Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Adrienne Hornby: Is it that we actually need more time for to think about?

And why do you think those things keep getting crowded out? Aimee: Yeah, I think patterns, habits, pressures, judgments, expectations are all reasons why we just keep doing the same thing the same way. And when I really think about the leaders that we work with who are doing things differently, they are leading differently and they are challenging themselves to be a little bit more brave, a little bit more courageous to lead differently, perhaps to other middle leaders in their school, other executives in their school is This whole idea of time is more around being intentional with your time.

It kind of actually goes back to what I have been trying to do in my personal life ⁓ at the moment in relation to my wellbeing, but just coming back to being really intentional. So for example, if we're trying to give ourselves as leaders a little bit more time, I often encourage leaders to think for a second about what is the difference between clarity and certainty? Staff are often looking for certainty. They want to be certain that the initiative that you're going to drive is going to stay.

They want to be certain that this new timetable that's going in is not going to change again. There's this element of certainty and expectation workplaces, but especially in education at the moment, ⁓ actually probably has always been there, versus clarity. ⁓ so there's this constant battle between needing to or wanting to give staff ⁓ versus actually just trying to be clear with them. And I often I often challenge leaders to, when I say spend the time to think, it is just being intentional about that.

So if you are finding there's behavior patterns in staff, you can refer to the Lippert model with, I'm trying to drive this change within my school and I'm noticing that staff are feeling really anxious at the moment. And well, is that because actually they're not up skilled in what it is that you're trying to get them to deliver? is it that... ⁓ You know, you don't actually have the resources available for them, you know, to flourish and to drive what it is that they're trying to do.

So instead of us focusing distractions on what it is that we can't control, which is what we spend a lot of time and energy on as leaders in schools is all these, you know, the external pressures and external elements that contribute to things that we actually can't control. If we can actually limit those distractions to what we can control and what we can influence and dedicate our time to those things. That's where I'm seeing the greatest change. I think leaders really struggle these days between care and challenge.

How do I show that I'm a caring and pathetic leader, but also challenge for growth and develop people? The difference between being a nice leader versus being kind. So often I'm encouraging leaders to just sit for a second and actually just think in that situation, were you kind or nice? And which leader were you trying to be?

Because nice often doesn't give us what we need. Kind is the one that's willing to challenge, willing to have a diviute conversation to grow others. ⁓ And there's a way to do it, but actually are we trying to be more nice than kind? Or are we in a predicament at the moment in schools around accountability versus responsibility?

And how are we balancing that? Are we a that's holding people accountable or are we actually just expecting people to be responsible professionals and do elements of their job that we're expecting them to do? So it's... I think the whole taking time and dedicating time seems fluffy and people go, ⁓ yeah, Amy, whatever.

And it's more actually about how we upskilling ourselves to be even better leaders. And if we really think about what it is that we're spending our time doing and how we can actually spend that time to change the way that we're leading so that actually we're upskilling the capacity of others whilst upskilling ourselves in that, we lead differently and we get better outcomes. So I think it's... It's less about the whole idea of just blocking an hour's time in my calendar every day to get clarity and more around the time that you spend reflecting on your leadership needs to be really, really ⁓ intentional.

⁓ And that's not easy. And that's why obviously the, the coaching space is so helpful because it is just that place to be challenged, to bring in a different perspective and to be really honest in a judgment free space. I often say to people, I'm not on your Adrienne Hornby: Hmm. Aimee: I'm not on the panel at your next interview.

And often we are being mentored. We are being mentored by someone who we would be interviewing with to get the next role. And so we are cautious about what it is that we reflect on and what we admit to being able to do or not be able to do. So I think it's just spotting patterns in how we're spending our time and challenging ourselves to think differently about how we're spending that time so that we can lead the school that we want to be leading, not just the one that's in front of us on that day.

Adrienne Hornby: Yeah... Yeah... Mm, I think it's such an important distinction to make that it's not just about blocking out the time to do more things. It's to assess what's working and what isn't and something that comes to mind for me, even when working with schools is that they'll so quickly begin to think about other ways that they can solve a problem or new things to introduce or new things to do.

I'll be like, no, why don't you think back on the on what you've already introduced or your shared professional practice that you're expecting of everybody, what's getting in the way of there not being consistency across the school. Like don't reinvent the wheel, just work out how to infuse that into more of shared understanding more broadly across the school, just more time to sit on that. like, you know, one that probably comes up for you a lot, and particularly when you were talking about Aimee: Mmm!

Mmm. Mmm. Adrienne Hornby: clarity and certainties around that, say like student management or policies there. are like, oh, yeah, we've run out, we've done the policy and we've done the flowchart.

And like, just because you've created a document doesn't mean that it's therefore infused into the school's processes and practices with fidelity. But just coming back to with staff, this is our flowchart. What's happening? Where are we getting stuck?

What do we need from here? And then as a leadership team, even not even going to staff at that level, but what is it, like you said, that staff might possibly need? Aimee: Mmm. Adrienne Hornby: for that to be truly effective.

And I feel like that's so much more rewarding than just starting something new again and having to begin that process over and over again. It just seems to be that common pattern in education. Aimee: Mm. Mmm.

Absolutely, absolutely. It's just trying to, as I said, it's really trying to, it's trying to fill the void of the shadow rather than the source. And it's actually just always coming back to what is it that's not working? And often it's not necessarily actually the new initiative.

It's like often, but obviously we can bring new initiatives in all the time, but every time we bring one in, it's not getting off the ground. Why? It's actually just that same repetitive patterns of behavior. expectations, reality, thinking of staff often, and the way that it's being led, because there is a way to drive change effectively.

And it really is, when I say coming back to what your role is and thinking about that job description, is a lot of, you know, people will come and say, you know, Amy, our leaders, especially in the middle, and you would find this too, you know, they're managing a lot, we want them to lead. And my first response always is, so where in the job description does it encourage them to lead? Because often it's not. Adrienne Hornby: Yeah, so good minutes to you.

Aimee: Often majority of their role is managing. And so that's fine if that's what it is. But if there's expectation versus reality, where not only do middle leaders want to lead more than just manage, and their senior team want them to lead more than just manage, but where is there space and time to do that? What's being cut for them to be able to do that?

And where actually on paper does it show that that is actually part of their role? And a lot of the time when we do that investigation, it's very narrow. which again just explains that reality versus the expectation. Adrienne Hornby: Yeah, I think what I was thinking there too, was we're expected to develop and coach our own staff, but there's never actually the time to do that.

Like we're either out managing behaviors or jumping on class. And I know that that's also a very system linked issue, but I think I just like even your basic reminder here to go back over our role descriptions as leaders and workout. These are the things that we're meant to be doing. And I know you reference in your work a lot, the AITSEL standards for leaders as well.

Okay, where are we not allowing or plugging in or planning for time to be able to do this or develop our skills in that space? I think that's even a great reference point to identify what's currently missing off those expectations. the Aimee: Mmm. Mm.

Mmm! Adrienne Hornby: building up of our middle leaders to be able to do that. think that would give schools a lot of insight into those things that they can begin considering to plug in. Aimee: A lot leadership these days is leading people.

And what I love about the new AITSEL standards is that it helps embed skills to lead people. I actually really like the new AITSEL standards compared to what they were in helping up skill and build those skills and that capacity in our middle leaders. Because again, a lot of what I just shared there around how to spend the time. ⁓ Adrienne Hornby: Mm-hmm.

Aimee: isn't covered in professional development. I never learned those skills as a middle leader. And I look back and think, no wonder I was struggling to lead people because so much in education of that middle leadership is driving teaching and learning and is driving strategic direction and is the flow chart and is the document and is, ⁓ and just the more and more we're learning about, you know, human behavior, we spend, you know, a lot of our professional development workshops and things on actually how are we helping up skill our leaders to lead people well.

Adrienne Hornby: Mmm. Yeah. Aimee: because they don't have those skills. They're skills that can be learned and learned quite quickly.

And the way that you can change your practice as a leader can be pretty swift. The turnaround and the change that we've seen is pretty quick once you've adapted these skills. But I do like the new AITS or Standards for Middle Leaders. I do feel like they're the strongest they've been in helping develop how actually do I lead my people.

Adrienne Hornby: Hmm Yeah, I'd argue that many leaders, particularly middle leaders, haven't even been afforded with an opportunity to ascertain what kind of leader they are or what kind of leader they want to be. I would challenge, because I go into schools and teach it, that some middle leaders don't even know the difference between an instructional leader, a servant leader, a transformational leader, what distributed leadership is. They don't know any of that because uni certainly doesn't.

Unless you're going and doing Aimee: Uh-uh. Mm-hmm. Adrienne Hornby: postgraduate studies in educational leadership, or doing your own reading on your own, you never afforded that opportunity. If that was plugged in to our development work, and I know many schools do it, this would then give us a little bit more insight into then where we need to go, okay, right, a lot of our leaders are really struggling with having difficult conversations or, ⁓ you know, their strategic vision, vision work or consultation skills, let's then offer.

collective work or small group work in that space. just don't even, we just haven't, and I certainly didn't do it. had great leaders who welcomed the opportunity for me to go and learn that, but it just wasn't part of our inbuilt foundational leadership ⁓ capabilities and development. Aimee: Mmm!

No. No, not at all. And Aidsil just recently brought out the three different pathways often to middle leadership in schools, which I find fascinating. And the reason they brought it out is for us to have a good understanding and to challenge and to be aware of the mindsets of leaders depending on how it is that they've entered into middle leadership.

And it's so fascinating. And the more I read about it and explore that, and then bring that into our coaching practices, the deeper we're getting with clients quicker. in relation to that mindset work because it is really fascinating. If you just ended up in middle leadership versus being an aspiring leader, your mindset in wanting to grow and develop ⁓ is really different.

Whereas if you were, yeah, if you were, so it's aspiring, accidental or anointed. So like you were tapped on the shoulder and said, hey, you've got some leadership skills. We'd love you in the team and you go, ⁓ yeah, okay. So.

Adrienne Hornby: Fascinating. Yeah. Aimee: those three different pathways lead to different mindsets. And actually the research on that mindset sticking with you for your career, ⁓ really interesting.

And we already know that our leadership pipeline is getting very dry. ⁓ Our leadership pipeline is running really dry. And so we need ⁓ leadership to make shifts and to lead differently so that we've got leaders actually wanting to stay and wanting to become leaders for the future of education for sure. Adrienne Hornby: Yeah, and I think it's the same with teachers.

Like we don't have any opportunities anymore to develop or rediscover a sense of professional identity for teachers. So if leaders also unafforded with that opportunity, where's the motivation to stick with it or to keep going or to continue to develop ourselves to keep that engagement alive? ⁓ that's really fascinating. I hadn't seen that.

So that's very insightful for me. I have to dive deep. Now, given that Aimee: Mmm. Mmm.

Adrienne Hornby: time is unlikely to just magically appear. ⁓ With no one likely to save us unless we're working in a school where leaders ⁓ like those working with you and who are listening today are like, okay, yeah, this is something we need to plug in. How do you see principals practically creating more of it for themselves or for their team? What does this actually look like inside a busy school environment?

Aimee: Mmm. it. So I could list a bunch of things, but if I really, really think about it, they need to give themselves permission. Adrienne Hornby: Hmm.

Aimee: Because if they don't give themselves permission and I just list strategies, it's not going to stick. So there's a really strong connection to the perception of what that looks like to others. And I have this conversation often with leaders that we work with in and around, or us challenging them a little bit in relation to what is your work? Adrienne Hornby: Hmm.

Aimee: Like what actually is your work? Like what are you hired to do? What is your role? And it comes back a little bit to that whole job description.

I know I keep going on and on about that, but it's just becoming, yeah, it's just becoming more. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just becoming more and more relevant to what actually is your job and what actually is your work.

And I've got one coaching client I've been working with for years and he often references it as that. And I've, that's been stuck with me and I've said to him, I use that? Because I love it. And he's like, absolutely.

And it's just that whole idea of like, Adrienne Hornby: don't know, I think it's important. Well, it's the most tangible thing we've got, isn't it? Aimee: What is the work? And when we really think about it, it then helps us eliminate that a lot of the things that we're doing aren't actually part of our role.

And we have to be the ones that give ourselves permission to sit down for a second and say, okay, this is what's expected of me. This is literally what I'm being paid to do, or this is what I was employed to do. And this is what I need to achieve by the end of the year. And I know it sounds really, really, really simple and people might roll their eyes and go, ⁓ yeah, but every single time, and we've done this, hundreds of times, every single time we do it, it gives the sense of permission to block time.

Because at the end of the day, as I said before, it's not just about blocking your calendar, but it is in a production sense, it is, you do actually have to give yourself the time. But before you do all of those bits, there's a real challenge around the permission to give ourselves time to think. And there's many times I've spoken to senior teams about... Adrienne Hornby: Mm.

Aimee: how it is that they're dedicating some time. It doesn't have to be a days and days of retreat, but how are you collaborating often offsite to be able to really dig deep into the work that is your role? And often it's this perception of what are the senior leaders are offsite doing, you know. So it's a little bit of that not understanding people's roles and then what it is that it takes to get that clarity needed for that role.

permission bit is simple, but I just... Adrienne Hornby: I like it, ⁓ but I but it's simple, but I think it's the things around it that make the difference. So what immediately came to mind when you were talking then was when we would go off site as a leadership team, I remember one year it was brilliant, we're mapping out our five year strap plan and I think our principal recognized that all of us as middle leaders had competing agendas or portfolios that we wanted to prioritize.

So me being numeracy, I wanted to focus on numeracy. We had somebody looking at inquiry. He's like, I want you to map out over five years how you imagine that looking over each year. So we all did.

And then I remember him putting it up visually up onto this board where everybody was trying to compete to do the same thing at the same time. And he's like, how is that? possibly going to work across all of the terms with our professional learning, with the athletic carnival, with reporting periods, blah, blah, blah. So first of all, there was just that time to rumble a little bit, to talk about what we needed to prioritize, to talk about how we get there.

But one brilliant and amazing thing that he did that I still encourage schools to this day to do is when we would return from being off site, he would update all staff on. the result of that time while we were out. So we've now mapped out this, we actually identified we had to pull back on this and prioritise this. And that closing of the feedback loop for staff and that transparency then solidified not just for the leaders, but for the rest of the staff, just how valuable and important that time was.

And that's really important for trust. So it's like, it's not just the plugging the time, it's then... Aimee: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm. Adrienne Hornby: One, of course, how you use that time, but then how everybody else understands that time was then spent. Yeah. Aimee: Absolutely, absolutely.

It's the whole idea also around, you know, availability, you know, this confusing sense or the blurred lines and boundaries around being available as a leader and that, you know, as a leader, I need to be on site with my door open so anyone can come into me at any time to solve any problem and you know, and it's just I often challenge leaders to just ask them is the reachability of you an indication of you being a good leader? ⁓ Adrienne Hornby: Yeah. Aimee: And I think that falls in that hole, you know, where it is that we might be most productive or what it is that certain teams need to go and do to get to, you know, to get the clarity that they need to come back to be transparent.

And, ⁓ and I think it's. Yeah, I just think it starts with permission because I could list a bunch of strategies and no one is going to go, ⁓ yeah, I'm going to do that. And then get, get to school on Monday and they won't because they still haven't given themselves permission. Adrienne Hornby: Yeah.

Yeah. Aimee: to view that time as a strategic need in their role. Adrienne Hornby: And it's balancing it out right like I begin to think now around schools I work with where they feel like they have no visibility of leadership at all. So I'm not saying then that you shouldn't prioritize it because your staff want to be more visible.

It's about balance. It's a balancing act. But another thing that came to mind when you talked about the permission is maybe I feel a little bit bold in saying this, but listeners following along who are like, ⁓ permission can't possibly do that. I probably maybe Aimee: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Adrienne Hornby: guess that that might be an indication that some kind of coaching or self-reflection or awareness work is definitely needed so that that doesn't feel like such a foreign, unachievable concept, right? Aimee: Yeah, absolutely.

Adrienne Hornby: All right. So there's a lot of one-off professional development work really for leaders in schools. So I speak here, a workshop there, and your work in longer-term coaching and development is really important. So what do leaders gain from that longer arc of work that they simply can't get from just one single session or even just listening to this podcast today?

And what do you we risk if schools really keep defaulting for these little short-term one-off? Aimee: Mm. Mmm. Mm.

Mm. Adrienne Hornby: little snacks, this information. Aimee: ⁓ absolutely. You touched on it before around, you know, always almost trying to fill gaps and always trying to do new things.

And I think it can we can often perceive it as leaders that, you know, upskilling and giving new knowledge and information to our teams about things is is helpful or wanted or desired without actually just stopping and pausing again and getting clarity on what it is that we're trying to drive and what it is that we're trying to focus on. Because a lot of the professional development that people are going to is sort of twofold. It's often either around strategic sort of threefold around strategic direction, around sort of a lack of skill or a need to up skill and then passion.

And all three are important, but how do we balance it to get it right? And I think that the one-off professional developments ⁓ are really inspiring at the moment. And it's one of those good old, you you've got your notebook full or you've, you your notepad is full and then you get back to school and it sits on your desk and it's not opened again. The work that we do encourages that implementation and intentional action, which is the hardest part.

It's almost that responsibility and owning that you want to do something differently and challenging yourself to do it and having the courage and confidence and skills to be able to do it. But also having that support there in the messy middle. Very, you know, we don't, we don't learn a new skill or do drive change effectively without ebbs and flows and without implementation dips. And I...

Adrienne Hornby: Yeah. Aimee: From the moment I started wellness, I always said that I went on some of the most amazing professional development and it stayed in a book. Or I went on the most amazing professional development and I started and then I lost hope because what I thought or how I thought it was going to go didn't get off the ground as well as I thought. And I had nowhere to go to seek what next.

Like that professional foot was done, moved on and there was no way to reach out to that person or to get in contact again. And I always... Adrienne Hornby: Yeah. Aimee: promised myself that no matter what it is that we build and do to have a positive impact on schools, we will be there for the messy middle.

And whatever it is that we support schools with, we are helping with the implementation and the intentional action because so much of our great ideas and creativity and the drive for change gets lost really quickly. ⁓ So I'm just really passionate about it more than anything is helping with that intentional action and Adrienne Hornby: Hmm. Mm. Yeah.

Yeah. Aimee: Defaulting to short term is kind of what we do when we're time poor and don't have that capacity within ourselves. But we know that nothing's going to change overnight and that it is going to take time and having someone in your corner to do that is really powerful. Adrienne Hornby: Yeah, I think so.

And just making those regular commitments. And like you said, talking about where things go a little bit pear shaped, or I'm even thinking outside of coaching, but even that time to come together as leaders and reflect like what you said on what's working and what isn't and rumble and disagree. Like some of the that's actually really productive to go. I had an idea of how I thought something was going to work and someone disagrees with me rather than.

Aimee: Mmm. Mmm. Mmm! Mmm!

Adrienne Hornby: ⁓ that's putting me back. It's okay. Well, how do I need to shift my messaging? What do I need to take away here?

How again, can I pivot and adapt so that this lands differently? Like that is leadership. A lot of the time is just adapting to the reflections and responses of staff and other leaders. And yeah, working with a coach, think normalizes a lot of that.

Aimee: Mmm. Mmm. Adrienne Hornby: but also gives you a strategy so you don't have to just abandon ship every time and keep going and stick with it and just trying something differently. We get so caught on our strategy or the way that we want to do things that somebody just offering a different perspective or insight is so powerful.

Aimee: Yeah, absolutely. It also builds that pattern awareness of things that we're doing repeatedly that we're not aware. Yeah, have I? Yeah.

Of what it is that we don't notice in ourselves. And I cannot tell you how many times I reference the word self-awareness ⁓ in, in coaching sessions, in workshops, in, I just think there is so much space for us to Adrienne Hornby: Yeah, I like, I've used that word a lot today. Yeah. Aimee: build the capacity of our own self-awareness.

And if we actually invested in that, I think we'd see tremendous gains ⁓ in around that. And I feel like, yeah, the work, the ongoing work commitment helps both of those ⁓ rather than come in, be inspired for a couple of hours and then go. Adrienne Hornby: You have mentioned ⁓ pattern awareness a lot, and I think maybe I'm queuing into it because I've been ⁓ doing my own personal and professional development, looking into the different patterns of people, more so myself, but in others.

And unless we become aware of a pattern of behavior or of thought or of working in ourselves and in others, there's actually no way that we can interrupt. And for a really long time, I've come from this strategy of being told what to do or telling people what to do and improve, but the coaching element... of actually articulating out loud what we're noticing in ourselves and in others is so powerful. And we're not often afforded that reflective practice unless we're investing in it for our staff or for ourselves.

Constantly consuming more things to do doesn't actually really lead to that interruption and that improvement in what we do. Aimee: Absolutely. And there's so many schools that are doing coaching cultures and I am in all support of that. If you have up skilled staff to have coaching conversations, reflective coaching conversations, then I think that is incredible.

I don't think it's being done well enough. And I think it's a tick box. And if we're not asking the right questions and actually reflecting effectively, then we're wasting time, we're investing time in the wrong spaces. So I love the idea of creating coaching cultures in schools so that you can do it amongst one another.

But it is rare for me to see it being a tool that is driving effective change in a positive way. Adrienne Hornby: So from ⁓ then your coaching work and just your speaking with schools and reflecting with leaders all the time, what skills, capabilities and reflection work do you think gets skipped or overlooked that would make a real difference ⁓ if we just made more time and for it? Aimee: Something I reference often is, you know your leadership shadow? The default, yeah, the default behaviors, I guess, that fall under pressure when we're under pressure that our team kind of a quietly working around.

⁓ Are we aware of that? Again, awareness, I talk about it all the time. ⁓ Asking, I always encourage people to ask different questions, not just of your team, but also of yourselves. Adrienne Hornby: Good one.

Aimee: ⁓ It's something I know I referenced in my TED talk too, but it's something I'm really passionate about. Again, when coaching, I know it can be such a powerful tool and the power of a good question, ⁓ but asking different questions, not just of your team, but of yourself and challenging that. ⁓ think discernment often comes up in and around actually knowing where our attention and energy should be going and where it's going, where maybe it shouldn't be, and it's not actually helping us because I think sometimes we lose that muscle.

that discernment muscle gets lost in us just repeatedly doing the same things or getting again into old habits and patterns and ways of working. Another, I guess, element that's often overlooked is in and around your identity work as a leader, which is what we've referenced a little bit here over and over again. ⁓ And sometimes we'll go, ⁓ identity work, ⁓ leadership legacy, ⁓ your shadow, ⁓ but it is all really powerful. It doesn't have to be long and lengthy, but quick.

check-ins with it will be more powerful and more inspiring is probably the shift that I see the most. a leader that we're working with is struggling with motivation, especially intrinsic, identity work and leadership shadow work ⁓ and discernment of where time and energy is going is often a catalyst for reflection that helps drive behavior change that's going to have more of a positive impact. Adrienne Hornby: Yeah, I want to zip back to your reference of shadow work because I mentioned this with a leader recently and they had no idea what shadow work was.

So what is it and why is it important because there might be somebody listening here like what do mean shadow work? Aimee: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah, the behaviors that you default to that maybe you don't see often, but others do, or that have an impact on others without you realizing.

⁓ And I think it's not just in your professional life, it's in your personal life as well. But obviously here we're talking about work. And I think, ⁓ again, it takes great awareness to realize what that shadow is. It then takes the right questions and different questions to get to the bottom of it.

Adrienne Hornby: Yes, that's sign. Aimee: And then it takes intentional action to shift it and become aware of it. You're still often going to default to it, but it's how long do you default to? Are you picking it up?

Like I often say to clients, when did you pick it up in the process? ⁓ sort of as soon as I'm like, that's a win. You know, it's the behaviors still happened. People still were impacted by it, but you noticed it sooner.

So it's not necessarily that we're trying to get rid of it. It's just this awareness of knowing that it's there, knowing when it shows its head and peaks it head and when it doesn't. and Adrienne Hornby: yet. Aimee: it often like when I really think of it, it sort of looks different for it looks different for every leader and how their shadows.

Yeah, it's kind of getting a little bit yeah metaphorical but they do they just look so different for different people and the way that different people express it and share it and reflect on it is just I just love it like it's such fascinating work. ⁓ But it's, yeah, in its simplest form, I would say it's more around those default behaviors, default patterns that we go to in times often under pressure or stress that is having an impact on our team in not a positive way that we're not aware of.

Adrienne Hornby: Hmm. And I'd argue when you talk about that, even the gateway of offering any kind of development first in that space is a great first step to help build an awareness. And then that coaching to build on it. I was as you were chatting away, I noticed something even myself recently after I did this course was that ⁓ I identified patterns in myself during that course.

So part of the facilitation. Aimee: Mmm. Adrienne Hornby: And then the very next day was faced with the shadow side of myself during a really stressful time. And my husband raised something that he has raised with me probably like regularly for the past like 10, 15 years or whatever it is about what I do.

But because I'd just done that reflection and then he raised it, I was less defensive about it and noticed in that moment that shadow side and could really go, oh yeah, you know what? when I am stressed, I do just divert to blaming you for taking the wrong turn as a wrong turn there as opposed to me not giving you the instruction because I was distracted or on the phone. And he was just like, what? And I was thinking it's because I invested in myself enough.

And I've always known that about me, but because it wasn't current enough in my reflective practice that it just happened to be then. So that's really the power of more time just to invest in self-reflection. Aimee: Mmm. Yeah.

Mmm. Adrienne Hornby: we'll notice more of the shadow sides more often as opposed to just once in week zero at the beginning of the year. And then you kind of forget to notice the patterns by term three, keeping that stuff really regular. And if you're really struggling, I'm sure you, what are you working with clients every couple of weeks or every month is generally where you'd check that.

Yeah. Yeah. Aimee: Mmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, three every three.

It depends. Sometimes if they're working on something quite intensive, it could be every fortnight, but it's mainly every three or four weeks. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Adrienne Hornby: so important and it's just keeping it front of mind. It sounds really wishy washy, I think to some people, but when you're when you do it, you're like, ⁓ this is making such a big difference because it's staying front and centre. One thing we see in here a lot ⁓ really is of this gap between what leaders intend for their staff and then what staff actually experience. Do you see this in your work with leaders and what really creates that gap and how could leaders start to close it?

Aimee: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's really interesting. I feel like when I have these conversations, leaders tend to talk about values. Like it kind of goes down a bit of a values path.

And I often challenge that with it perhaps being more of a perception than a values problem. ⁓ And I say that because I think leaders often ⁓ experience their own intent for whatever it is that they're trying to do. And then often staff experience the behavior. and where they're different in what you think or you're intending to do versus what you're actually doing or saying and where that difference is.

So I feel like the gap is, it tends to be like a values alignment kind of thing. And I often challenge it to be perhaps more of a perception of how you're perceiving yourself to be doing it versus how staff are perceiving it. And, you know, for, so for example, perhaps you walking past, Adrienne Hornby: Hmm. Absolutely.

just gonna hit it. Aimee: someone in the corridor and giving eye contact is your way of sort of connecting with someone when you're busy. Whereas just acknowledging them and using words is more of a, you know, they're going to perceive that as more care than just the eye contact. So know that sounds really simple.

That's probably a really, my brain's kind of not really thinking of a ⁓ good question there, but. Adrienne Hornby: Well, I'm thinking about responsibility and accountability. That's often a value of leaders. And so they might have that value, but then how they behave to communicate to staff that they're not meeting expectations can be kind or not so kind.

Yeah, perceived by the staff member because maybe they're stressed because they haven't identified their shadow side of being snippy, something along those lines. Yeah. ⁓ Aimee: Mmm. Yeah.

Mmm! Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yep.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think that, yeah, becoming more observant of ourselves as again, as leaders and having that space to reflect and getting curious about the way that others are behaving and what impact we're having on that ⁓ is a really interesting way I think to often work out what it is that we're intending to do and then how it's perceived by others. And you and I both know, you know, when you're gathering data, ⁓ you know, putting out a survey and you're about to gather data that the mindset that you've got to be in as a leader.

to receive that data and to be able to sort of disassociate it from personal and you know, it's a lot. So it's the same kind of work in and around how do you get feedback and how do you turn it into being effective feedback that's actually going to drive more alignment in many ways and more awareness across everybody. yeah, I think the whole, like a different question leads to a different answer and then often drives different leadership ⁓ in a more positive direction. Adrienne Hornby: It just for me all links back to, as you've said, that self-awareness and that shadow work.

And, know, as Tasha Yurik who talks about how you're not truly self-aware unless you, one, are aware of your behaviors and why you are the way you are, but also the impact that you and your behavior and your actions have on other people. and very few people that, you know, I guess that developed, or I was about to say so clearly developed, but. Aimee: Mm. Yeah.

Adrienne Hornby: so obviously developed to others. So we're constantly working on that in leadership. And as you said, when things are stressful or different phases of change management or whatever it might be, our skills might not be as strong for a different project or a different portfolio. So if we just perceive ourselves as the same person all the time, we're not actually taking into account what we're like when we're stressed or when we're tired or when we've got a lot of things going on or where something hasn't worked.

Aimee: Mmm! Mmm! Yeah. Yeah.

Adrienne Hornby: or where we're getting pushback. I'm a different person all the time. Like if I'm reflecting on how I normally am, it's never the same. I sound like I've got a million personalities, but it's being open to the fact that different pinch points create different realities at different times.

Aimee: Mm-hmm. Mmm! Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

And so often leaders will say to me, ⁓ well, I'm just like, I'm still waiting for them to come to me. You know, like, can sort of hear the narrative or hear the the staff room talk or, you know, I'm still waiting for them to actually come to me. And I'm like, but have you gone to them? So again, that whole the intention of what it is that you're hoping happens versus what it is that you're actually doing and the perception of that.

So yeah, I think that's values versus perception. And then what we're doing with that is Adrienne Hornby: Yeah. there. Aimee: probably what I'm noticing most and what I'm again finding is having the greatest impact on driving change.

Adrienne Hornby: And I think the intention versus the perception too, going back to what we were talking about earlier, we might have an intention for a strategic initiative and we've rolled out all these different actions. But if staff aren't responding to it and seeing it as success that we that hoping or what we think that it is, we need time to build awareness around that, to be able to pivot and adapt and be flexible. And that's why time is really important. Aimee: Mmm Mmm.

Adrienne Hornby: to truly be reflective. Oh gosh, what do you hope the future of leadership looks like? And what do you think is the first step in making that a reality amongst system and school constraints? We're doing a 360 back to what we talked about very early on.

What do you want to change? Aimee: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

What I want to what I want to see is the leadership pipeline overflow again. That that that would be like my the vision would be that it's it's such a sought after role for all of the reasons that we've obviously been talking about if we can make the those changes that it's actually a role people want. ⁓ You know, it's it's something that people are aspiring to again, not because it's easy. Adrienne Hornby: Yeah.

Yeah. Aimee: but because it's something that's helping them that they see the benefits of it. They see the greatest impact. They're not just seeing the depletion.

So that's definitely my hope for it. And I feel very, very strongly, as you know from not just this conversation, that leaders who are leading from clarity and not adrenaline ⁓ to me is really is that first step in making it feel more realistic ⁓ and to make small changes that can be felt by all really quickly through that clarity. Adrienne Hornby: Hmm, God. And then how do you think we can do that in our individual schools?

Is it going back and it's more of those opportunities for identity work, for shadow work, for self-reflection, plugging out the time. But I even think about having a vision of how we want to utilize all of that time rather than just planning the time in. I'm thinking like, what's something tangible schools can go right? This is what we want.

System won't save us. How can we create this for ourselves? Aimee: Well, schools are already doing it. You know, they are already prioritizing, yeah, of their, again, through the lens ⁓ that we work with schools on is giving them that leadership, their coaching space to reflect is becoming a priority, is putting it into, you know, budgeting is to put it into their timetabling is putting it into is it actually being when our leaders are clear and can see clearly, everything flows from there.

Adrienne Hornby: Yeah, they are. Not old schools. Mmm. and Aimee: And so that's a priority.

And so from the very beginning, it's putting the budget, it's putting the time and we work with schools who rotate, ⁓ know, who's being coached and who's not. And then when it's off rotation, then there's like an internal sort of system that we get going to keep it going. So there are schools already doing it. And it is that whole permission to give you leaders a little bit of time and space to do it within the restraints and the capabilities that you can and making it work.

⁓ Adrienne Hornby: Mm-hmm. Aimee: And, you know, it can all be tailored and adjusted to what it is that would work in your context. And ⁓ there definitely are schools already doing it. I think on that broader scale, it does just come back to priorities because I still even think even if the system gave the time, would some schools actually use it for that?

Probably not. Because it's not it's it's not something that they believe in. It's not part of their vision. It's not.

And that's OK. So it's I just think it's I don't think that there's one tangible thing that you're like, hey, copy paste this. ⁓ Adrienne Hornby: Yes. Aimee: because it just looks different.

Our programs look different in every school. It's all very tailored. So, but I love that. Adrienne Hornby: Yeah, so even like dipping your toe in the water as a principal, even if you're thinking, I don't know if I could yet manage this at a whole leadership team level, but I'm going to work on this for me.

Notice the shift and change as leaders, notice that shift and change and staff, right? This is what I've been doing. You know, the age old case study work, like this is what other schools are doing. Other principals, I know, asking questions of really successful leaders that you've.

Aimee: Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah, yeah.

Yep. Adrienne Hornby: met and their experience with coaching and carving out this time for thinking and for rumbling and for alignment. Absolutely. Aimee: Yeah.

And look, some schools start with their willing, like they work with their willing, their leaders that are, you know, wanting to engage and others work with those that are in greatest need. ⁓ And some obviously have have capacity to provide it for their whole team, but you're absolutely right. If you feel the benefit of it yourself, you'll be more inclined to encourage it of others and to prioritize it. ⁓ Adrienne Hornby: Yeah, I just think that ⁓ it requires long term planning.

think this is what schools say, we feel like we don't have the budget all the time for that now. Why don't we think long term? So, okay, it might not happen this year, or even next year. But how can we start to think about working it into the budget as a development plan later into, you when our next budget rolls out next year or later into that year, part of the next cycle and then Aimee: Mmm.

Adrienne Hornby: sort of pushing that money there then. I know it's a money thing, which is hard, but we can think ahead. Don't have to think so reactively in the moment. All right.

Aimee: Mmm. Mmm. Yep. Yep.

And often principles once the principal has got the clarity themselves, and they're leading a little bit differently, instantly the ripple effect of that is bigger than they realize. So even if it's a budgetary perspective, it's you know, too big for the whole executive team too big for all middle leaders. But if you are a principal or in senior leadership, the ripple effects of you having clarity will be greater than you can imagine, by giving you just giving yourself that time.

So Adrienne Hornby: Yeah. for sure. I agree with you, Amy. think some of the leaders who I work with who will get coached by their own executive coach or somebody working on their wellbeing with them, I'll hear in my sessions with them, how they say, ⁓ I reflected on that with my coach and realised that, you know, me doing the PLC matrix with all of our staff during reporting weeks probably wasn't the right time.

It's even just that, like you said, that reflection around the snags or the challenges or where something didn't land well. Aimee: Mmm. Mmm. Adrienne Hornby: to rather than taking it as a personal thing.

⁓ yeah, it was just likely the timing of it. I didn't really think that through. I just try to get it done rather than map out how it might actually look. And those are my leaders working with me even in our course.

They're getting great results with the work that we're doing in wellbeing because they're doing that work on themselves and just have somebody in their corner. We see a number of quotes circulating on social media showcasing something thought provoking, you this one's coming, or inspiring from Aimee: Yeah, yeah absolutely. Hmm Adrienne Hornby: thought leaders across the globe and throughout time, if a quote from you were circulating now, what would it say? Aimee: If Laters, Laters Who See Clearly, Laid Adrienne Hornby: Good one.

Aimee: Yeah, I think it's simple, but it's probably could sum up this whole conversation and what it is that I'm so passionate about is helping leaders get that clarity because once they once they themselves can see clearly, then the ripple effects are significant. Adrienne Hornby: Yeah, to see all the light and the shadows. And that shadow work has been a real key takeaway of mine from today. The podcast is aptly titled Well-Ed Schools, which is that play on words to reflect those schools who lead with wellbeing in mind.

They're going to know the answer to this. What is one thing you think that schools or leaders can do to prioritise wellbeing that would make the biggest difference? Aimee: Mm-hmm I think genuine human connection. And I think that's why it's getting a bit lost, especially in leadership around how do we lead people well.

And it's very core basic, that sense of belonging and psychological safety at the core. And I think that for people to genuinely feel seen, feel heard, appreciated, understood, and to genuinely have connection is by far the greatest ⁓ contributor we can give to the culture that we're trying to create. again, that ripple effect that we're trying to have as leaders. I think that genuine human connection is a ⁓ Yeah, is significant and often lost very quickly, but can be gained very quickly.

Adrienne Hornby: Yeah, I'd even argue a connection with ourselves first. this is all that we've been talking about today without that, then that connection with others is that much harder. Just coming back to who we are and what we what difference we want to make and how we plan on doing that. You know, a good assessment of the challenges that could come and how to navigate them, think, or just even that even at a more basic level is that too, isn't it?

Aimee: Mmm? Yeah. Absolutely. Adrienne Hornby: Amy, I'm going to put in all of the links to connect with you on the show notes and the link to your TED talk for those who want to dive in deeper, watch the talk in its entirety and learn more about you.

Thank you so much for joining me today to have this really important conversation. I even sit here to the end of it and think some of this sounds... Aimee: Yeah. Adrienne Hornby: You know, it sounds, these are all fundamental things that sound basic, but they're sometimes the hardest things for us to do that would make just such a huge difference to staff, to students and community and ourselves in school.

Aimee: Yeah, absolutely. And how lucky are schools to have you helping them, reminding them to get back to basics in the work that you're doing? ⁓ You know, I think the fact that we can, yeah, just be that we can, you know, just help be that gentle reminder, or that little catalyst to just, you know, get them to give themselves that permission without the guilt to focus on themselves and grow personally ⁓ is incredibly powerful. And all the work that you're doing to do that is incredible.

So thank you for all the work you're doing in the space. ⁓ Adrienne Hornby: ⁓ did I? Tell the ones helping them, David. ⁓ Yeah.

Aww. Nice. How cute. Aimee: to help our schools and our leaders thrive too.

Adrienne Hornby: We don't need fancy new programs or initiatives. Just going back to the basics of really thinking things through, having that time to be strategic and highly reflective would pay in dividends. Aimee: Absolutely. Adrienne Hornby: Thank you so much, Amy.

Aimee: Thank you, thanks for having me.