Leadership First: The Real Work of Culture Activation with Brian Vogel

Okay. So, hello and welcome to Vibe Makers conversations with Culture Activators, where we dive deep into the heart of workplace culture and leadership with some of the most innovative minds in the business. And today's guest is someone who truly gets culture activation, particularly through leadership. Brian Vogel is a coach, culture builder, and someone I've actually had the pleasure of collaborating with and learning from over the, I don't know, year, two years. It's been. It's been a minute. Yes, exactly, exactly. Like, I feel like old friends at this point. So he's the founder of Sundog Coaching, a certified working genius facilitator, and honestly, just the kind of person who brings that clarity and calm to that. That chaotic world of leadership. So welcome to the show. Brian, I'm so pleased to have you. Marnie, it's a pleasure. Great to be here. Thank you for having me. Awesome. Well, it's my pleasure as well, so thanks for coming on. So let's start with the basics. Okay. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you found yourself doing this type of work. Yeah, you know, I guess I spent 25 years in HR land plus and really got to HR from a previous career. So you dive. And look at my LinkedIn profile, for example. Close enough. Before I went back to grad school and concentrated in human resources, I was a professional swim coach. So I coached both the club level and at the collegiate level, finishing my collegiate coaching career at a university in Chicago called Northeastern Illinois. And as much as I loved coaching swimming, that was a lifestyle choice, and I was looking for the discipline where I could coach the most and ended up in HR. Did that for 25 plus years and still doing that as a fractional HR guy, but really focusing more on leadership development, leadership coaching through an organization I call Sundog Coaching and got there because that's. That's really where I get my energy is from. Helping leaders get more from themselves and more from their teams. Yeah, absolutely. And so was there a particular moment that really stood out to you that was maybe that spark of, hey, I want to make the world of work a little bit better or the world of leadership a little bit better? Yeah, I think it was probably 10, 12 years ago. I was working for a small digital marketing and advertising firm here in Austin and working closely with the founder. And I stood up the HR department and was actually the head coach of people and culture. He didn't want to use HR in the title, and that's a different story for a different time. And came in and quickly saw that the leadership team Itself was not singing from the same songbook. And there was some not. There was some internal strife among the two key leaders in the organization, the head of sales, as well as the founder. And really, I felt like before we could really work on the organization and stand up HR as well as redefine the culture, which was what I was brought or reignite. The culture, I should say, is really what I was brought in to do. That we needed to work on the leadership team first. And I think that was the aha moment is that it really all starts with the leadership starting at the top and then with his or her team. And that sets the tone for the organization. Yeah, and I've had that too. The most successful organization, organizations that I've been a part of, whether it's working for or with, is starting from the top at the leadership. You mentioned that the leader was like, it's people and culture. You know, we're going to take HR out of it. Nothing against hr, but that is, to me, a bit of an indicator of. Look, we're going to be. We're going to be people centric, and we're going to do things a little differently. And so that. That epiphany of leadership is really where that culture gets activated, I think, is what I'm really taking away from you here. Exactly. It's just if you want to have, you know, we're on the same page. Marty. Culture stems from behaviors, and those behaviors have to be modeled, and they're modeled by the leadership. They're not. They don't happen by placards on a wall describing the values. And even if the values have behavioral anchors tied to them and they're written down somewhere and they're spoken to, that's great. That's a good start. But the leadership has to model those behaviors so the rest of the organization knows what it is. And then the culture takes form. Exactly. They're on the front lines. And I know you and I have talked a lot about. I think we both have war wounds through the years and the good, bad and the ugly. So you've been a part of some really great cultures or some cultures that you've been brought in to make better. Also part of some. Some more toxic cultures. So on both extremes, you know, have you seen a time when culture has really shifted for the better? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, wounds and we. We carry scars together as well. Mar. And I've had the. I've been very fortunate and blessed that I've worked for some great large enterprise companies. USAA stands out in my mind. Certainly an organization that gets behind its purpose to serve those who served and then spent four years. Indeed, indeed. Had a great culture, really putting the employee first and sort of blazing roads as it relates to dei. I think in those organizations, it was well understood that you couldn't do your best for the end user or the customer unless you did your best for the employee. And I think that was well understood not only by the head of HR and those organizations, but also the leadership team. You know, those are two examples where it shines through. I think looking at the other side, where I've seen it not work as well is. And it's really along the lines of probably hiring and hiring just to put a butt in the seat and not hiring as a culture ad, and putting people in seats and in leader positions where they really weren't. I hate to say culture fit. I think that's the wrong way to describe it. They really weren't a culture ad, and they were taking the behaviors that were associated with the values, hence the culture, in the wrong direction. Yes. And, you know, I know as people and culture folks, we, in leadership folks, we talk about anymore that it really is that culture ad. But I think tying it to those behaviors, and you're taking it a step further of, okay, we have our core values, and these are the behaviors that kind of emulate those values. But even additional to that, these are the behaviors that could potentially go against these particular values. So it's not necessarily who these people are as a person, but can they behave and operate and work in such a way? You said this yesterday in our conversation, yet more of the verb, you know, that they're doing actionable, actionable behaviors and leadership qualities that lend itself to that more robust, healthy culture that you're looking for, for sure. You know, and I think one of the aha moments I usually experience with many of the leaders that I coach is, you know, they're people managers. Right. And, you know, I often ask, okay, what is. What is expected of you day to day, really? What is your role as a leader within the organization? And, you know, they'll talk about, they do program management, they're a product person. And I'm like, okay, that's, that's fine, that's your specialty, but what's your role with your team? And they, they seem a little bit perplexed. But in the end, I'm a firm believer that a leader in an organization really has one primary role, and that is to affirm and adjust behaviors. So they align with the values of the organization and it's those affirmed and adjusted behaviors that ultimately lead to the results. Yes, absolutely. And do you think that that leadership ability or capability for that one job, can it be learned or is it. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think you know where HR has. And it's not just HR alone. I think we don't set up more often than not, especially first time and inexperienced managers up for success. We take a top notch engineer computer, you know, a software engineer, Swede as they're called and we say okay, you're ready to lead a team of your peers, have at it and good luck and you know, sure, there's maybe some cases where they're given some type of management training, but more often not. They're not. And it's, I mean we're really, you know, neglecting where managers need the most help. And that's when they're put it first time put into a role and they, you know, I think it goes beyond. We've talked about this Marty. It goes beyond just. I'd like to introduce the Boom Band showcase. My name is Jeff Taylor. I'm the host of the show. I'm the founder of Monster.com and Boom Band. This is a podcast about job seekers. They're struggling right now. The ghosted jobs, the black hole, everything is challenging. What we want to do is create real stories, get them talking about their superpowers. Have you see what they're really like. Because you're going to want to hire them. Give me a sign that you love your life. Management 101, you know, talking about one on ones, recognizing marginal performers, doing a talent assessment. I think it's more about, okay, yes, you need to learn all of that. But, but let's give those first time managers and inexperienced manager a coach to help them through implementing all of what they learn in management training. If and hopefully if that's done right. Yes, yes. That's the one thing that I have seen be the most powerful, particularly for first time and frontline managers is that coaching aspect. Because even on a peer to peer level we could say here's a new program that we are rolling out across the board and in a people or HR seat we can give them all the resources that we could possibly have to say this is how you operate within this new program. But every team is going to perceive and receive that program differently. So every manager, every people leader is going to have a different experience and that's where that coaching comes in. Because they have to be self reflective and they have to be able to walk through their own path within that new program or whatever that is, Initiative, you name it. Yeah, it's all situational dependent. Right. I mean, you can give them the training and that's a good starting point. But how it's put into motion and how they have to use that is situational. Depending on their team and depending on, you know, their, their own style as a people manager. Yep, yep, exactly. Okay, I'm gonna get a little meta on you because we have the, the reason we've been chatting so much is you let me, you let me go through learning about the working genius, you know, assessment with you and we just walked through my, my results and it was really, really a great conversation. But I'm more curious about you because you're a certified working genius coach. How have your own geniuses influenced your approach when it comes to culture or leadership activation at work? Yeah, I think, you know, I've been using the working genius in my coaching practice probably for the last four to five months. And then recently just, I guess it's just only been a week or so ago, got officially certified. You know, there's lots of assessments out there. I think those assessments are all of value. I think where the working genius sort of stood out to me is it's 20%, maybe a personality assessment, if that, and then 80% of productivity tool. So I, you know, my working geniuses are discernment and enablement. And those I believe lend to really what I feel are my God given gifts of coaching. Because, you know, discernment is you can assess the merit and workability of the idea or solution and then enable it is agrees to support and assist in the implementation of an idea, a solution. So coaching is a partnership. So with a coachee, I am discerning the merit and workability of what we want to improve and the ideas and solutions and that's the collaboration. And then my enablement comes in to supporting that and holding them accountable to make those shifts or changes they want to make as a leader. Nice. Okay, that makes sense, especially based on our conversation yesterday. And for the folks listening, Working genius is developed by Patrick Lencioni and so that, you know, with, with his books and everything, I mean, I have clients who gobble anything up Patrick Lencioni that they can have. So the assessment actually rolled out during the pandemic. So it didn't get a lot of splash at that point in time. It's, I think it's just coming up on its fourth anniversary. Of course there's a book that accompanies this in Pat's typical fable form. Very easy read but worthwhile. His vision of the working genius is to change the world of work by people finding more joy in work day to day. He believes that burnout doesn't occur because people are working too much or too hard. That could be a reason, but more often not. He believes it's because the majority of their job is not aligned to their working geniuses and they're working more in their frustrations, is what it's called, or in their competencies. Yeah, it's the work that drains the energy and being intentional about. Yeah, there's some of the work that you have to do that's the mundane, but there has to be balance there. Example for me, I'll be vulnerable here. Marnie, one of my frustrations is tenacity. I think you share the same with me from yesterday. A lot of people, including my wife example, as well as my daughter, find a lot of joy in crossing off things from a list. I find no joy in that. I'm not even. I don't even like making lists. I probably should, but I'm not a list guy and I'm not. I don't find any energy or again, joy from crossing something off the list saying, I got it done. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, so one last question that I have for you before the rapid, not rapid fire question. So what's one shift that you hope to see in workplace culture over the next five years? Yeah, I think it's a pivot. And you can call it a cultural pivot or a leadership pivot, but going from performance by pressure to performance by purpose. So less managing, you know, by control or checkbox compliance and leading more with connection and action, actual human intelligence. I think that's what I'd love to see. I think there's a lot of, A lot of things, for lack of a better descriptor that could get in the way. I think what's going on to be most interesting is how we continue to adapt and use AI. Yes, I, you know, I think the differentiator, and I'm not a futurist by any means, but the differentiator is going to be authenticity and human connection. In that. In that. That was. That's nothing that AI will ever be able to do. And that's what's going to become the, the new differentiator is authenticity and connection and creativity. I mean, you people think. I think AI can be creative. I think AI is only as creative as the prompt that you put into AI. Right. So there is some level of creativity. I'm not poo pooing on AI. I use it every day. I think it's the most helpful and smartest thought partner anybody would ever have. But it, it's just that and nothing more in my view. Yes, absolutely. When you're starting a business, I mean, I use AI so often is almost I joke around, I'm like, it's my business partner, you know, but really, in the end, when I think about all my people and culture and HR friends out there, is that it's empowering us to actually have that human connection. It's empowering us to have systems where we can provide context over control because it's freeing us up to be more of that human centric people focused roles that we all say that we want, but with caution and curiosity. Yeah. One of my leadership beliefs, Marnie, is leadership by through fear or managing through fear. Will is a short term, very short term. I don't even know if I advocate it's a solution, but it can move the needle for a period of time, but it's not going to move the needle the way you want to move that needle from a performance standpoint and it's going to come back to burn you. And I think to a degree, I think there's, you know, there's been somewhat of a shift from where we were, you know, two, three, four, five years ago, leading with more clarity and purpose. And now there's some trends where we're seeing managers come back to fear. And I don't want to get too far down this rabbit hole, but I think, you know, return to office, for example, that that should be something that is a collaborative effort and something that occurs, that benefits the organization and it shouldn't be a have to, you know, and something that, you know, you don't come in and badge in three times a week, you're going to be, you're not going to get a raise. I think that's not how you want to go about this. And you could spend a whole nother podcast talking about this, Marty. But it's. People want to know that their manager cares for them as a human being. And you know, if you were on my team, Marnie and I wanted to go above and beyond for me and I didn't know your husband's name. Do I can I really expect that you would go above and beyond for me? I mean, I'm not trying to get in your personal business, but I, you know, I tell managers, you, they have to know your employees have to know that you care about them as a person. Yes. Especially in a distributed environment. You talk about return to office. Yeah. And that's that fear piece is how do, how do I let people know that they're valued or that I care for them? Or maybe they don't even care that that's the case and that's that fear based decisioning. And when you. That feeling cared for piece is part of, you know, our hierarchy of needs. And I do feel like the world of work is changing and that piece itself is bubbling up to the top above everything else. Yeah, yeah. It's. It's an interesting time. Is how I would describe is that's why we all have an important job, you know, to kind of talk through this stuff and figure it out together. Yeah. Well, okay, so now we are at the section of the rapid. Not really rapid fire questions because they're not really that fast, but they're a little more lightweight. Lightweight. Okay, I'm ready. I'll sit back. So. Okay. Yeah. You haven't been prepped for these at all? No. Not one bit? No. Okay, first one. What is one workplace behavior that you wish would disappear forever? One workplace behavior that I wish would disappear forever? FaceTime. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So FaceTime, like in person time. I think the thought that, you know, I don't know where this originated from, and no disrespect to Jack Welch from ge, but the thought that you need to come in before your boss into the office and leave after your boss, I think that is ridiculous notion. I think if the work is getting done and the results are being delivered, really, who cares how long you're sitting at a desk? Yes. Hear, hear. FaceTime. Time in seat canceled. I'm. I'm canceling it. I'm right there with you. Let's put a big X through it. For sure. Yeah, that's. That's lazy leadership, in my opinion. I'm going to be brash about it, but agree. Agreed. Yeah. Okay, so can you finish this sentence? A great manager always cares. Ah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay. What's the weirdest job that you've ever had? A lot of weird jobs, Marty. When I was coaching, I was also a cpo. And that doesn't stand for Chief people officer or chief Product Officer. I was a certified pool operator, so. And actually was certified. And so at the time when I was coaching, I was also the aquatics director at the university, which meant I was in charge of maintaining the pool chemicals. So I was a certified pool operator. That's awesome. How long Were you certified? Has that since expired or are you still for hired? I kid myself that I still know how to take care of a pool. Before we moved during the pandemic, we had a pool in our backyard and I took care of it and I'm sure I had it probably for real for maybe two or three years and then I guess expired. I'm sure you have to get continuing education credits or something, but it was a certification I once held, Marnie. Long time ago. Got it. Exactly. Okay, so before we wrap, where can folks find find you and your work? Sure you can find me on LinkedIn. There's crazy as it sounds, there's a lot of Brian Bogles out there. So just look for the one in Austin, Texas and then you can visit my website at sundogcoaching.com and then you can also find me at our other organization, which is sensiblehr.com. yes. And that's who we met through was actually Sensible hr. Yes, yes. That's the boutique HR fractional shop that myself and a partner have had since 2021. Thanks. Well, thank you so much, Brian. As I knew it would be. Love the conversation. I appreciate you giving me and vibe makers the time and love what you're doing. So much fun. The vibe of this was excellent. So thank you. Well, good. That's the whole point. Thanks, Brian. Thank you.