Culture, Tricksters, and Tricky Times with Jitske Kramer

Welcome. Welcome to Vibe Makers, the podcast for people who are making a huge change in all things human work. And my guest today is Yitzke Kremer, corporate anthropologist, best selling author, and one of the most captivating voices on culture and leadership that I've encountered. I'm just absolutely tickled to have her here. Yitzchak travels the world learning from traditional healers, tribal leaders, surprising innovators, and even a curious passerby, and brings those insights back to the world of business. She's the founder of Human Dimensions, and her books, including the Corporate Tribe Jam Cultures Work, has left the building, recently released in English, Tricky Times, explore how we build strong, inclusive cultures that are safe for diversity and ready for change. Her work has been recognized globally and she's known for delivering deeply insightful, no fluff keynotes that the way, the way that we think about power rituals, collaboration, and leadership. So what I love the most is Yitzke is, has a way of making the familiar seem strange and at the same time strange, feel suddenly familiar. So, and in today's conversation, we're, we're exploring just that, how anthropology mindset can help us lead through tricky times and create cultures that actually work for humans. So welcome, Yitzke. I am so honored to have you. That's wonderful. Thank you for the introduction. Thank you for joining us. So, to start off at the top, tell us a little bit about yourself, what made you, what brought you on this journey and philosophy about corporate culture today? Well, I've always been a curious person, so I always wondered, why do people do the things they do? And when they encounter people who do stuff differently or believe in different gods or different ways of doing stuff, why they're not just curious and happy, but why do they get angry and tend to, you know, have conflicts? So as a child, I was wondering about that, and then if you have those type of questions, well, anthropology is a good way to go. So really tapping into the question, how do people shape cultures? How do culture shape people? And then by accident, basically, I entered organizations and noticed how funny things people do in organizations. We have a language we only use there. We have rituals, which you don't do at home. So I got intrigued and sticked around with the corporate tribes. I love that. And in your keynote, you put on repeat, culture shape people, people shape cultures. And for me, in the work that I've done in the on culture, it's really hard to put that into words. And I think that sums it up so eloquently and nicely. What do leaders really Kind of misunderstand about that concept or where do you see them taking missteps when it comes to the shaping of cultures? What I see leaders, but people many times misunderstanding that, you know, we have these things which sometimes I don't know in my language to say it's the blue culture. So it's like the things which are fixed, the strategies, the culture. I mean the strategies and the structures and the KPIs and we need to have that all in place. And then culture is perceived as something, you know, if you have time, it's with hr, it's something with behavior. So we split that. But the thing is that it's not two things, it's one world. So we have a world of PowerPoints and KPIs and strategies, which is pretty much linked to the world of behaviors, feelings and views. And if you misunderstand that, you can think that you can create your organizational structure or your organizational chart. And then afterwards, if you have time, work on the collective behavior. But it's not the case. The things which we feel are valuable and the views we have for the world and how we behave, they will reflect on how we shape our reality. So, yeah, so it's a double bind. I've had so many leaders and founders actually task me with culture, but then they equate that to a certain activity or a nicety or a benefit or a perk and not really an output of what they are putting in with their daily actions in the ecosystem that they build for their, for their organization, that reciprocity between the two is so paramount. So I think that's so important. Yeah, if you look at it like that, it's like culture becomes an activity, a team building activity, or do some eat something nice or have music. But it's all part of that. If, when I look at culture, it's really. If you start a business, if you work in a business, the first things people do, they start creating cultures. So culture is linked to how do we give feedback to each other, what do we do with time? What do we feel is respectful? How do we deal with people who are new to the group and who leave the group? All these things are at the core of an organization. So it's not a nice to have. It's not. And some people say I find it, you know, it's soft skills. And I'm not really attached to that. No, it's part and parcel of being human beings. Also, when you work and live in organizations and leaders, they shape the culture with every interaction they have and with every decision they take. So it's pretty. It is, it is like no pressure, right? It's just like, you know, it really is shape. And in your most recent book, Tricky Times, which I am again, just enamored with the language and the clarity that you bring to what culture really is. But you talk about liminal space and how leaders have this paramount role within that space. Can you tell me a little more about that and what sparked the idea for your book just in general with Tricky Times? I mean, it really kind of all centers around that liminal space and moving forward. Yeah, it does. I was intrigued that in so many places, in so many organizations and societies go through transformational stages. So there is no leader who doesn't use the word change or transition or transformation. So I wanted to get hold of what does it mean? What does it mean with a whole group, a whole organization and maybe even society and maybe even global go through a change process. And I think we are. And if you look at how we go through transformation, we human beings, anthropology says we need to go through a liminal space. And liminality is a word which was coined by Arnold Van Gennep. He was an anthropologist in the early 1900s and he studied small societies where he noticed that when people go through transformation, let's say from a boy to a man, or when you marry, or, you know, when there's life changes, you enter a different stages, which is basically you separate from what you had. Then you have a space of not really knowing, you know, that what was no longer is, but what is is not yet there. So it's a liminal. It's betwixt them between two storylines and you build a new storyline, you make your new choices, and then you integrate that into a new type of world. So that's how people transform. So these three stages are interesting because as a human being, as a person, I think everyone recognizes it. If you fall ill, you separate from what you was, especially when it's a long term illness. And then you need to grab who you are, you have your questions around your identity, what should I do? And then you start building and choosing and hopefully get better. And then you integrate again. And then you take on things you learn during that liminal space. Well, the same thing counts for organizations, the same thing counts for societies. And in organizations, what we see is everyone working with change programs. They do. You know, you prepare a lot for the kickoff session. You have this special day and everything needs to be in place and you prepared everything you have to kick off and then we think it's finished. But we need to realize that kickoff sessions are separation rituals. The kickoff is separating us from the old. And then we usually enter. Okay, so what's next? So how do we do that? I need new skills. I don't like it. I do like it. I'm happy. I'm not. So you have this mix of emotions, creativity. You have people mourning. You have people not wanting to go. You have people who. Who feel that they lose privileges when we enter the new state. And you have people who say, well, yeah, no, I. You know, I can do something new, and that's liminal. And then slowly by slowly, we built new routines, new collective behaviors, new norms. We create a new physical world, maybe with new processes and spend money on different things. And then we created a new reality. So this liminal time is crucial if we want to go through transformation? Yes. I mean, any transformative event that. That liminal space, and you hit the nail on the head of. There's some people who are. I don't. I don't want it. I want to go back to stasis where. Where we started out, as opposed to that new future that they're moving into. And so do you have any. You mentioned rituals and cues that you. That you have the one kickoff ritual. But then there needs to be other cues in rituals moving forward. Any tips or. Or, you know, suggestions for leaders that are within that liminal space and they're taking people along the journey with them and how to get them moving forward to that next step? Next step? Yeah. Well, the first thing is to realize that, like, Tricky Times is not a management book. It's not a book with tips how to do it. It's really understanding the process. And if you understand that process, I'm sure everyone knows what to do. So the main thing within that liminal space is that people feel uncertain. So there's high levels of uncertainty that links to anxiety, first of all, with the leaders. So for leaders, they need to be able to hold their own uncertainty because they need to carry the group as well. So that's the first thing. So feel certain with not knowing. And to do that, we human beings love having rituals because rituals are the stepping stones which guide us through uncertainty. There's different types of rituals with different functions. One will really make sure that we go from one stage to the other. Some are repetitive. With some rituals, we have this communal feeling like Christmas is really. We don't want to miss it. And if you have a different religion, it will be different festivities. But that's the moments where you get together with your family, you know, everyone is there, you need communities and you keep on going. While in organizations, we tend to skip that because it's not efficient. There's no causal reality. You know, when we. Why should we do that? It all costs money to put this extra effort in. But the thing is, we are magical beings. We are storytelling beings, and we ask for facts and figures, but we want stories and we want to belong. So rituals help us to do that now. And what is then a ritual? It's an extraordinary moment. It's a moment with an extra touch. So if you have a. So it can be very small. If you have a regular meeting and never have a cookie with the coffee, make sure there's cookies and everyone will say, that was the meeting when we had the cookie, you know, or do brave and not have the meeting in office building, but do it outside in the park. It's just twisting your mind that your whole body and mind and even your soul realizes, whoa, something different happening. So you stretch it a little bit to make it. Absolutely. I had a. I had a previous employer that one of their. One of their stories or pivotal moments was chanting socks on hands. It's a long story, but that moment of chanting socks on hands, that told a story of where we were in that moment. And you can, you can feel that moment just by saying, saying that one phrase. And I think that was really strong in bonding of the team at that moment. It's a wonderful example because you get new language, you have an image, you want to be there. It is different than an email saying, you know, the next steps in the transformation. Right. Here's our new core values, and this is what it means, and this is how we're going to act. Yes, yes. Align with them, you know, and as far as modern organizations right now, I mean, a lot of what Tricky Times starts off the gate with is where we are. And as a, as a world, a global economy, shifts in climate and all of that, where do you think or how do you think that affects the corporate culture, reality and, and how we should be approaching our team? Or maybe, maybe it's not even a how we should be approaching our team, but just more of a mindset and that it's all interconnected. Yeah. There's so much to say. And now the message I'll be giving, many people won't like it, so I'm apologizing up front. What I notice is that we have so many challenges in our daily lives, and it will be different in different parts of the world. Where I come from, I'm from the Netherlands, and we have problems in the healthcare system within a couple of years. One in three needs to work in the healthcare system to keep it sustainable as it is. Well, this question will be different in different places in the world. But there's trouble. How do we keep our people healthy? And then the business model is actually in many places that the hospitals and insurances, they love having unhealthy people because the whole business model is run on the amount of treatments. So that's a narrative which is pretty hard to get it going. It's strange now, the same thing you see in schools, that many students, they don't feel that they belong to the way they teach anymore and they want different things. You see organizations which have their procedures which might be poisonous for the environment, but still within regulation. So, yeah, what do we do? So what I did, I looked at all the different challenges, the fact that in different places of the world we run out of drinking water. It's a big thing. There's climate change going on, there's a small group of very rich people, and there's large amount of people who find it very hard to get through the day. So I just wanted to understand what is the narrative which is binding these different issues. Is there one thing, is there one story? And what I came across is that we somehow put an unlimited value in the core of our society which we need to feed. And that is that we want economic growth, but not like just want it. We have an obsession with it. Because if we want economic growth, that's. It's human, you know, you want to have a better life for you and your kids. And, you know, we homo sapiens, we've done that before, but we, we created something that regardless what happened, it must grow. It's obsessive. And in organizations, you then see that people say, yeah, yeah, but it's very important to put people at center. You know, it's important, but we can only do that if, in the end of the day, it's cost effective. So you see in the value hierarchy that we, that we choose money over people. And that's not, that's not a law by nature. That's culture. People shape culture. So what we did, we put an infinite value at the core of our society. That means that if you have that, and then I'll teach you a lesson in anthropology and how people shape culture. It's very, very short. You have values, things you find important, and from that you grow behavior which is collective. So you grow norms to make sure that everyone applies that behavior. And then you create the physical world. Now, if you put a value, it has no limits in the center of society, then you start, you know, growing behavior which is constantly challenging limits. And that's fun. Fake it till you make it. The sky is the limit. We can do everything. It's great. Yet the earth has boundaries and we people have boundaries. So there's lots of trouble we come across, people fall ill, there's burnout, there's lots of drug use to just keep on going. The earth is calling back like, well, the air can finish this pollution everywhere. So we created a limitless situation in a world with boundaries. And that's a great narrative, but it's not sustainable. And I think that that's an unconvenient thing to look at. But I think that's where we got a bit lost in our narrative, that we can't keep on going like this. So, yeah, that means that there's a culture change needed, it's a transformation. And linking that to your question, what does it mean for corporates? Well, the question then is, is the business model and the things you do, is it sustainable with the storyline we need to have for the future? And that's an ethical question, it's a moral question. And not everyone is happy when I raise it, but I think we should have a conversation. It makes me think of just an example of even the resurgence of AI and how corporations are actually approaching it in that I just posed this question of is it a way to reduce cost or is it a way to free up the people that work within your walls, in your organizations? And that, to me, is a very ethical question of how, how are we using these innovations in a very, to your point, a very limited world, so to speak. Yeah, it's wonderful. If you gain time by using AI, whose time is it? So that's where you see some organizations go from five days work to four days with the full salary and full productivity. Because if you have a business model where people are paid by the hour and that your product is paid by the hour, then if you win time, that will go into the business model in the profits. But if you have a business model or a way of working where you say, no, I'm not hiring your time, you're not a slave of me, I'm hiring for your results, then if you get to your results quicker, then that's great, you still have the results. So AI is challenging our frameworks on how we divide work Together, what reciprocity systems are. And the thing is, if you look at the fact that we have this constant growing value in the middle of our society, and we mix that with the realization that we lost. We got rid of the gold Standard in the 1970s, so we have a limitless space where we can play with money. That didn't used to be like that, but it's now. And then there's globalization, where it's limitless, because if you try to hold an organization accountable for what they do in a certain space, for taxes or pollution or whatever, they say, well, I'll go away. So it's kind of hard to put limits to it. Then we have Internet, which is a limited space where people don't want restrictions, and they call it the free world and free speech, not realizing that the Internet is free speech, but it's, it's linked with algorithms which are linked to power structures. So it's not that free. So we have created a world which is unique for our humanity, where we have tools like AI and Internet, which are limitless, where we have constructs where it's globalization and limitlessness and then limitless, you know, play with money. And the, the strange thing is this links into this value which is limitless, like constant growth. So we created a world where everything which is linked to a liminal space, which is a space without boundaries betwixt and between, which should be a temporary stage where you imagine stuff and then you choose and then you continue. We made that into our standing culture and we call it agile and fuga. And it's fun in a way because you can, but. But it's very hard to, to make choices. And every organization has that, you know, we have all these things. It's hard to put priorities to stuff because everything needs to be done and today and yesterday, so we overheat it and. And the challenge is, so who says, stop, I'm not gonna do it. You drive me crazy. So, yeah, if there's too much stress, we can look at ways with another massage and a nice fluffy office space. Or we say, well, we just do too much. Let's make choices. And that's the challenge. I think so. I mean, it's so strong because, you know, having been in the startup world for quite a few, few years, that environment can be intoxicating. That's why I found myself in technology and that, that growth at all cost in the, you know, the building and the doing great things. But that does come at, at a grave cost. And then you see a lot of that in the HR industry in particular, because you have a lot of burnout and you have a lot of blame and fear and, and, and shame for, for things that, that are beyond their control. What you said earlier, you know, around these narratives, you know, and I'm kind of reflecting back around the narratives and the book, but the way you say that we've created this, this limitless world, and it makes me think of the individuals who are creating the false narratives. You know, there's always the story of how we get to that limitless, limitless world and whatnot. And you reference that in the book of. There's the people who give those false negatives. Do you mind shedding a little more light on what you mean by that? Yes, sure. And it's like the false narratives, but a step back. It's the tricksters. It's a trickster archetype. And when I started doing this research, I never really knew the word trickster. I never really gave it a second thought. But the thing is, we need them, but we need them in the right place. So tricksters, that's a, It's a, It's a metaphor. It's, It's a. How do you call that? Archetype? So it's not a function profile, it's not a person. It's an archetype. And as archetypical beings are in all our stories, so if we think of our myths and the different stories which we have in different cultures and movies, there's always this trickster figure. And they will challenge the status quo. So Jack Sparrow is a trickster. And Anansi the spider is a trickster. And in, in my part of the world, Reiner V, he's a trickster. Pippi. There you go. It's like a trickster. So it's fun figures. And you need them when things are stuck because they challenge the status quo. They play with boundaries, they make fun. They sometimes lie. Like Pinocchio is a trickster. And Pinocchio lies not because he has a strategic plan, he just does. So they're fun. But the thing is, they need to challenge leaders and they need to challenge the existing structures and order. But that means that the leaders should never become tricksters. And this is where we go wrong. So what happens in a world where we admire people who can constantly play with the rules and who can constantly trick the boundaries and the limits, because then we can have an unlimited growth? We think that the archetype, trickster is then the best archetype to put on leaders. And that's what we did. And that means that if you do that, then in many places you get Jack Sparrows as CEO and Pinocchio as political leader. And I'm so afraid that we did that. And that means that the trickster, which is a fun archetype, it's an energy all of us carry because it's cool. The sky is the limit. You can do anything. It's fun and you make fun of it and you don't care. It's rebellious. But if you have 20 people like that and you're bored of directing, it's a bad idea. If you have politicians who play the game all the time and who don't look at science at all and just make stuff up because it sounds good is not such a good idea. If you think about. People shape cultures and how they do that. They do that through interaction and decision making. That's how we shape our world. Our world doesn't fall from the sky. We create it together. And together we decide. We spend money on this and on that. We think this is good and this is bad, this is right, this is wrong. And we do that through interaction and talk. Now it's helpful if that interaction is based in some kind of reality, because then we have the facts and maybe tweaked a little bit, but it's still rooted in facts. And then we take decisions based on that. And then the chances that we. The hopeful chances that we create and we decide things which are good for us, for our neighbors, for the planet, you know, for. For. For everyone, for all the stakeholders. Now, if it's not based on fact anymore, then we have a tricky world where we kind of lost in a narrative, it's hard to call it. The narrative is fun. So for the people who are part of the party, so for the ones who are. There is an expression in the Netherlands I tend to like. You have a cookie and there's a chocolate side on the cookie. So if you on the chocolate side side of the cookie, that's the best place to be, then the party is fun. There's growth, there's wealth, there is economics, there's great, there's privileges. And then it's annoying that that story needs to stop. But the thing is, many, many people in the world are not on the chocolate side, they on the other side. And they are angry and they should be, because it's not equal, it's not equality. People are poor. Other people are still misusing their power in business models, maybe by regulation, but still we not have a. We don't have a very fair reciprocity system in the world. So, yeah, so that's where we are. So people keep on playing with that. We need to look it into the eye and say, well, is that truly the world we live in? And, and thanks to globalization and Internet, we have an interaction system going globally. So people, they see what's going on. I mean, I was in the jungle in Indonesia in January, deep in the jungle for a different film project, documentary. And then you're in the jungle and you're far away from everything. Two days travel. And then somehow people go to a Starlink, they download something of the Internet, they bring that into the jungle, and they all watch are sitcoms. So don't think, they don't know. And they look at that and say, what's going on and why? And, and, and so if you can, if you, if you just take a step back and look at the world we created, the question is, is it the right world? And you're right. If you've ever listened to a business podcast and thought, this sounds good, but no one actually talks like this behind closed doors, you're not wrong. On the Leaderboard AI podcast, we talk about the conversations leaders actually have after the board meeting, after the AI rollout that doesn't quite land. I'm Felicia Shakiba, and I interview CEOs, investors and operators about what really drives performance. If you want that level of honesty, subscribe to the LeaderBook AI podcast. And the analogy on the cookie to me is this juxtaposition of the people on the chocolate side craving to keep it right. They have kind of this, this not abundance mindset, but a scarcity mindset where they don't want to lose it and it can be addictive. And that's, you know, that's, I think, the danger that we are in as a society as a whole. You had mentioned your travels, and I do want to touch on a little bit from your field work in remote villages and places of conflict, because you were talking about archetypes. What else is out there? Like what, what roles, you know, have you observed and how they, they shape that culture? Oh, there are so many. So, yeah, one which really stuck out. If we think about transformation and change, then the one is, the question is, and I talk about that in tricky times in chapter six is who should guide, you know, what's the leadership needed in those tricky times, in those uncertain times where we have storylines and, and what else we have and conflicts of power, wild stories, we have imagination. So how to deal with that who's carrying that? And then you see that there's chiefs in tribal villages, in Elevjrv village, in every family there's chiefs and there's shamans for one. And chiefs, we have an organization too. We call it sea level. Right? The chiefs, it's all the seas. And then there is this shaman and the shaman, those are the masters of ceremony. So I went, for instance, and I describe it in tricky times to togo to visit voodoo priests. And I know not many people think voodoo now. You know, wow, now it gets scary. And there's puppets and needles and all that. But that's one of the problems. That's a very. It's bad marketing for voodoo that we used to make it into puppets and needles. Because then the people who believe in that type of religion, they're bad people and bad people, you can trade. That was an old colonial storylines marketing, bad marketing. So people there, they want to free themselves from that stigma and say, no, no, it's not what we believe in that we have a different religion. So that's why went there and experienced the power of their rituals. And I talked to the shaman, the priest at that point and said, what's your role in your village? What's your power? What do you need to do? And he said, well, my role is I hold the soul of the tribe. And I said, okay, so what's the role of the chief? He said, well, that's more like the mayor. The chief just needs to arrange stuff and if there's conflicts, they need to solve it and find the finance and just the things that needs to be done like leaders do. But he said, I make sure that the soul of the tribe is healthy. And if you translate that into organizations, at first glance it might seem very far away or exotic, but we have shamans in organizations too. We just call them differently. It's the facilitators. There are some people in HR who have that role. Not all of them, some. Some are doing other stuff, but some have this magical that you work with the in between that, you know, if that person enters the room after that there will be a different energy or people talk differently. So we have facilitators, we have some consultants have that role and they can work with. Well, we call it the soul of the organization. You can say it's the spirit of the organization, the DNA of the organization, the mission, the vision, the whatever is the untouchable. You know, the things you can't really touch, but you all know it's there. That's magic. And if you, if you want to go through change and transformation, you change the storyline, you change what you believe in, you change your mission and your vision, not just on your PowerPoint slide, but you start living something else. And that's something the leader cannot do. The leader can see that it needs to be done, the leader can allocate money and free time and then there needs to be someone else who carries that process of reconnecting to the spirit, which you might call the mission and find a new storyline. And that's the one holding the soul of the story. So good. And I mean as I like founder led cultures and whatnot, that chief role that really was such a big lesson in the book. What's one piece of advice that you would give a CEO or top people leader for their organization? What's one thing that you really want them to take away? I think that everyone should realize that the core process of us being human together is interaction and decision making. So optimize that. And that means interaction means that speak up, be frank, speak truth to power if needed, and at the same time listen, like truly listen and be willing to change your mind after a conversation and really believe that someone else can add value to the conversation even if they have a different salary or are a different hierarchical level in the organization. So that's interaction and then the decision making. Make sure that it's clear who decides what based on what, on what criteria. And ideally that would be the criteria which is good for your organization, which good for the customer, which is good for the planet, which good for the competition, for the people working in your organization. And that should be your criteria and not just what is good for finance. You know, it's more than just that. And if I would bring that back into one type of behavior, which I hope everyone would start doing from now on is in every meeting once in a while just ask does every anyone has a different view on this, is there anyone with a different opinion? And then listen because there always will be at least one person and they're scared to say so. But if we're scared then we can't use that view in our decision making process now. And this works best if we start telling truth and be frank and honest and we tend to call that vulnerability. I feel vulnerable. I would like to reframe that into just let's be human, let's just be human. Let's just sometimes say I don't know and I'm scared, I don't know where to go. How do you know the way instead of pumping ourselves up in some power language or some MBA language with KPIs and framework and set timelines and be human and let's do this together. Brilliant. You're here. Okay, so where can people find you your work? Especially tricky times, especially here in the US where can they. They pick that up? They can all go to my website, jitsukramer.com you can find me on LinkedIn. Although the main language there is Dutch, because I have a big Dutch following on LinkedIn. I have a substack, so you'll find me there. It's starting. It's new, so it's not very big yet. But I'll post different articles and if you really want to dive into tricky times just like that. It's a tricky times.com with a. I don't know. Exactly. Tricky-times.com and that will. There's everything around the book. Fantastic. Well, this has been, again, just such an honor and just so profound. And your book changed my. My own narrative and my, my thoughts. I thought I was pretty sharp with these things and that just absolutely whole nother level. So thank you so much for, for coming on and I cannot wait to get this out to the community. I think more people need to hear your message. Such wonderful. Thank you very much for your kind words and your support in spreading this story, because I do, I really do feel an urge that. Not because it's me, but because the world needs to get hold of itself. Well, thank you and we'll see you. See you soon. All right. Bye. Bye. Yes, Sam.