The Systems That Set CEOs Free with David Jenyns

Speaker A: Welcome to Tip Top. Grow up your business with Metronomics. Join me, Shannon Byrne, Susko, and Metronomics certified coach, Jed Roberts.

Speaker B: We'll be talking to business thought leaders, entrepreneurs, CEOs and business team coaches who have all taken the journey to grow up their businesses to their tip Top.

Speaker A: We'll be sharing strategies, systems, um, stories on how you can grow, uh, your company up at the speed you want.

Speaker B: If you're searching for your path to the Tip Top and feel your time is running out, then this podcast is for you. Foreign.

Speaker A: Welcome back, everyone. It's great to have you here on the Tip Top podcast. I'm joined by someone today who is definitely dedicated, but has learned a lot about one of the biggest frustrations I see in growth stage companies. David is, uh, you know, been through the growth stages. I've been through growth stages. There are many, honestly. And most CEOs start their businesses wanting freedom. Right? That's why we do it. Yet somewhere along the way, they become the bottleneck, they become stuck. They're looking for a better way, and they're actually looking just to get back to where they started. David Jennings is the founder of Systemology. Did I get it? Did I get it? Yep. I tell David I had issues with my S's. This is the founder, bestselling author, TEDx Speaker. I love that. Creator of a proven framework that helps companies build systems, and we're here to talk about that. David's built and exited multiple businesses, which is fantastic. And I'm so excited to talk to you about your stories, your experience, and share that with the audience. So welcome, David.

Speaker C: Hey, Shannon. Absolute pleasure to be here. Looking forward to this.

Speaker A: Well, it's been interesting to learn about your background, uh, your story, and I would love to start with a story. So I want to understand how you got started with this, why you're doing what you're doing today. And yeah, let's just start at the beginning, where you want to start. Yeah.

Speaker C: Well, I think I must have got this from my dad. He was a systems engineer and he, even from when I was like eight years old, he created a system for my brother and I to earn pocket money. We would get points for doing different things around the house and it would equal at the end of the week, we added all up and then we'd get our pocket money. So I feel like maybe systems was programmed into my DNA. A lot of the businesses after that, um, had a flair for systems. I mean, I was in stock market education space. We had a rock and roll clothing, music store we franchised, um, but it wasn't until the last business I got in where I got stuck. I was in that business for well over 10 years because I just built the business so dependent on me. And I thought this business is different, it can't be systemized. I was the guy, I was learning everything like it was a digital agency. So I was up to date with all of the trends and what's changing. And I thought Google's updating its algorithm and it's always changing so you can't systemize that. Um, right. And then we had the turning point. We found out we were pregnant. And I thought, I can't keep doing this. I can't be doing the 70 hour weeks. And I thought I've got to go back to systems. And I retested a lot of my thinking and that was really what strengthened my resolve on, on systems.

Speaker A: Can you talk about sort of when you got to that point? You know, lots of uh, we know lots of founders, lots of entrepreneurs, lots of CEOs, lots of hired gun CEOs take on the big opportunity. They get stuck and they, when they get stuck, they put in more time until something. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I think that will really resonate. I mean you just telling that story me back a long time ago.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You said we got pregnant, I was pregnant.

Speaker C: It's definitely a uh, moment that gets, oftentimes business owners need that shakeup moment because it's very easy to become complacent and to think, ah, uh, this is how business is. This is the way that business has always been and you just get used to tipping more hours in to solve the problems, but you're not really solving the problems. All you're doing is papering over the cracks and you're making the business more dependent on you. I was stressed out from the outside looking in. I looked quite successful. We had a team of 16, I was doing some speaking tours, we had some great marquee clients. But at the heart of it, I, uh, was just working very long hours, getting up early, staying up late, doing the weekends, constantly thinking about business. And I enjoy business and I get a lot of fulfillment from it. But I didn't have the choice to do anything else. Like some business owners, like you said at the start, they get into business for freedom and then they find they have anything but freedom. And it's not that they don't want to work, they enjoy work, um, but they don't know how to turn on or turn off or uh, when the business is dependent on them. And that was really something for me. That said, hang on. Business is not meant to be this way, and you're not meant to get stuck at this level. It's okay to be in that level for a bit, but don't stay there for 10 years like I did.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, many CEOs who are listening today and have, you know, found like, systems to set them free. You know, if I say it like that, you know, when they got in that position, it's not that the business is not doing what they wanted. You know, they're, they're liking it. Right. They're just seeing, you know, the revenue is growing, the teams growing, the complexity grows, you know, yet somehow they feel less free than when they started. Right. Uh, when they were smaller. Why does growth often create more dependency rather than more freedom? I know you've lived it. Talk a little bit more about that in your thinking about, you know, your. I love how you talked about. Yeah, I learned all about systems and then I went and did this business and I didn't think I could build systems for it.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think, um, like a lot of business owners, they, they just form these habits that end up getting reinforced, uh, on their journey because it helped them to be successful. They, they want to deliver to a particular standard. They make promises to clients and they deliver on those promises. And that's what's helped their business grow and get to where it is. So then they want to continue to maintain that standard, but they don't know how to transfer standards and they don't know how to get other team members to perform at that level. And it's not that the business owner wants to micromanage. I think that's. People have got that wrong. It's that the business owner wants something to a certain standard and they feel they need to oversee to make sure. And then that's where the dependency starts to really creep in. The business has grown. They've got lots of clients, team and suppliers, and everybody is sort of going to them and asking them questions. And there's probably a part of ego in there as well for, for a lot of people where it becomes part of their identity and they like to solve problems, but it's just they end up solving the same problem, crappy little problems again and again and again, rather than leveling up, solving higher quality problems.

Speaker A: Yeah, and you said it, you know, a little bit on your story with the digital agency that, you know, you're like the one. Right. And you know, it was all on you. And you felt like, oh, you might be the only one. Tell me how you got over that, because we know, and I know you see it. I see it. I lived it as well. You know, you got to let go to grow, right? You got to let go to grow in business and in life. So what, what did you like? How did you sort of get over that? Because we know a lot of leaders have a heart, have a hard time letting go.

Speaker C: Uh, one thing I came to the conclusion of is that if my business was dependent on me, or anyone else for that matter, my business was actually broken. So I kept on focusing on that thought that business is not meant to be dependent. It's independent of you. You are working. There are times you work in it, but you need to be able to step out of it. And then there'll be times that you're working on it. But the whole point of in it and out of it is this separation between you and the business and understanding that you aren't the business. Um, yeah, the business is its own thing. So just understanding a little bit about that was key for me then getting the pressure of feeling like, hey, I don't want to be that dad who's too busy to walk his son to school. That was enough to kind of push me to go, well, I. I've got to do something about this. And then, yeah, I intuitively knew, like, I mean, I've looked around, I've seen other people build successful agencies that worked without them. There are plenty of other examples outside of me of this working. So I knew it could be done. So then I just thought, well, I'm going to double down on this. Like, I need to solve it for myself. Um, and then, yeah, a series of fortuitous things happened, and that then got me to adjust my course to systemology.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Because the one thing we align upon. And, you know, I. I'm a big. Anyone listening and anyone's a regular listener. Like, I'm all about systems, right? And, uh, the system will, Will set you free. But a lot of, a lot of CEOs, a lot of leaders think that, you know, that all should rely upon them to document it all, to come up with it, you know. And I know you talk about the concept of systems champions, right?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: Can you talk a little bit about that and why that role is so important? And, um, just thinking about that, because I think that's a really good sort of segue into thinking about if I'm listening in a little bit of getting your head around it all.

Speaker C: This was probably the biggest breakthrough I've had in the last couple of years. I wrote my first book, Systemology, which was for the business owner and connected with the business owner. And then for about eight years that followed. After that, I worked closely with a lot of business owners as they go through this process. And then I started analyzing the ones that were successful. And then this common element of this systems champion came up.

Speaker A: Yeah, love it.

Speaker C: And it was a point like it was written in the original book. But I realized this is so important because the business owner is typically the worst person on the team to be doing the documentation and developing some of those process. A lot of it has to do with the business owner. Being a visionary will think into the future and think about how they would like things to be, not how they are. And the first step in process is to capture what you're currently doing and make it repeatable. And tremendous wins can actually be gained just by doing that. Uh, there's a few other reasons around like capacity and just the way that business owners are wired that a lot of them aren't the right person. Um, and then I started to get this thing pop up with this idea of the systems champion. But something happened in the past 18 months that made the systems champion so achievable. And I started to see junior systems champions bubble up where they might be young apprentices that might be, you know, maybe it's a son or a daughter, or maybe it's the junior person that's been trained in the technical work but doesn't know how to run a business that delivers the technical work. And this person's hungry and loves technology and AI has become the ultimate enabler for them and the systems champion. These people, if they're the right, you know, it's the person who's naturally organized, who, who writes a, uh, checklist or a process, even if you don't ask them to do it. They're just tidy, organized people. You find one of those, you give them this role of the systems champion. And their job is not to invent systems. Their job is to capture systems what's currently working and making it, uh, repeatable. And this for me now, like I ended up writing my, my latest book, which was written just for that person. It's not even written for the business owner. Uh, it's to say, here's what you're doing, here's why you're important to the business owner, and here's why it's the biggest opportunity of your lifetime.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that because so often the CEO, the founder, you know, thinks that they're the ones, you know, that they should be writing all those systems because, you know, they, they know them all. But there are, there are so many others on the team that are actually better to do it, a better view. And, you know, how, you know, has that, you know, I guess that sweet spot, that special thing in order to do that. And so I love that you, you wrote that book because the System Champion is all about, you know, just bringing that together. Can you talk a little bit more about. So let's say you're a CEO listening in, um, and you're like, yeah, I'm buying into this. This is great. How do they go about it? How do they, like, you know, get going? How do they start out? Like, from a, uh, practical, very practical perspective.

Speaker C: Oftentimes the best place to start is thinking about some of the challenges that are going on in the business. Like, I love solving problems with process. I always say that every problem in business is a systems problem. So we start off by thinking about, well, is it lead generation, is it your sales process, is it onboarding clients wherever the challenges are currently happening, the bottlenecks, or where there's heavy dependency on the business owner or people in the leadership team. And deploy your systems champion to solve that problem by simply documenting and capturing best practice and process all around that problem and the problem. Like what happens just before, what happens just after, what are the related tasks, and capture that. Because something happens when you capture. Not only does sometimes obvious problems become obvious, um, because you docket them and then it becomes easier to work on. Um, but also we then start to be able to delegate, uh, parts of the process where there isn't any particular magic. Maybe an invoice just needs to go out and it needs to be done a certain way and include some line items. And it has to be done that way. And by doing that, you just reduce one of the little problems that are creeping in that's causing this confusion and breakdown. And you solve lots of little ones around it, and then you find it just releases that problem. And then the business owner might come in and deploy some of their magic, which is the re. Engineering or visioneering of what it could be. Um, but sometimes it doesn't even need that. Sometimes it just needs capturing what needs to be done and making it clear and setting a standard, because that's a huge problem. A lot of business owners and leaders have. They have a standard in their head, but no one else can see it. It's invisible. So we want to make sure that we make the invisible visible by documenting it and being able to transfer it.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I love that because some organizations that I work with and you work with are really good at that and some are not, but some all have like, all of them have certain frustrations and process and you know, everyday things to monthly things. And you know, we just sort of braised on a little bit of AI. Right. So you know, the, the thing that's fascinating right now, fascinating right now is AI is the jumps on how fast. Right. It's moving. Mhm. And everybody says they want AI. Not. Well, I shouldn't say everyone, but a lot of people do. Right. There are some people that don't. Very few companies have documented processes. Right. So how do you automate the chaos? Do you take the exact same approach as you just sort of talked through? And then we're thinking about the curiosity of, you know, adding a little AI into it, solving a little bit. I know the clients I'm working with, you know, there's definitely been a lot of looking at the big, big process, big gaps. Where are the wins? Little ones in the beginning, big ones. What's been your experience with it?

Speaker C: What do you see the clients of ours that are absolutely dominating with AI and getting the biggest? The wins are the ones that have the most documented process.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: Because we're finding that you need to go to AI to ask it to do something and you need clarity around what you want it to do. The question to ask is actually here's how we currently do things. How can AI help us do that faster, cheaper and better and otherwise people just get lost chasing shiny objects. So we always say process first and then we want to use AI. Um, but the wins are quite extraordinary. I've got one client, Shannon Schmidt, she runs ah, an accountancy business here in Australia. She's got about 20 accountants and then she's got a range of bookkeepers and offshore assistants. And she was, she worked, her first job was working at McDonald's. So she got bitten by the systems bug many moons ago and she documented everything AI hit. And it was immediately obvious to her that there's a huge opportunity. And just one of the tasks that she did we, she used to have a team member that would log into our tax portal here in Australia once a week for every client to grab the news. And the updates that the ATI had communicated would put that into a spreadsheet, draft up an email to send that to the client. Now over the course of a year because she's quite particular with logging everything took about a thousand hours. She had the process fully documented. Initially she had offshored it but then when AI hit she built a little um, automation AI that basically logged into the ATO portal, did the same thing, drafted up the email and then just had a human in the loop so would just review that um, before hitting send. And she went from a thousand hours down to eight hours.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And that was one task. She's now literally found close to a hundred of those little tasks in her business that were well documented that she could then build automations around and it has been an absolute game changer for her business.

Speaker A: That's a huge, that's a huge story. And you know I even working with my clients as well, um, I love like those that have documented process are good, getting there a bit faster. For those who don't, you know, I find, you know some of my clients don't have it all documented. Um, for people who are listening in today who don't have everything all documented if they want to prepare their business for that AI enabled future and thinking about process systems, where do they start? Because a lot are feeling like oh my gosh, I just don't have a clue where to start. It's just so much they don't know what technology, they don't know what people, they don't know what systems like what, what do you like when I'm sure you've talked to lots of companies who have come to you going how, what do we do?

Speaker C: Yeah, well I definitely think appointing a systems champion we actually find the systems champion evolves into a systems uh and AI champion so they start capturing best practice and then over time it's almost a natural thing for them to then spot the re engineering opportunity and the systems champion now can actually move a lot quicker. Like it used to be a reason a lot of businesses would shy away from process is the time and investment cost to get it done. Uh, any sort of systems development is also the prime example of an industry that has completely been turned on its head because of AI work that I used to do that literally took me 24 months with clients I can now do in three months. So getting the right systems champion and um, one of the first things that we, we do, we've got a couple of tools we talk about in the book and things but it's the short answer is you're you apply the 8020 to your business looking for the 20% of the systems that deliver 80% of the result.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And you, you do that in department, you go, you know, in marketing, if I was to only pick seven systems that is absolutely essential for marketing, that if that didn't happen and the marketing department didn't do that thing, it wouldn't be delivering what the business needs. Now marketing's job is to deliver leads. So we need to think about what are the most critical systems to deliver leads. And then we do the same in sales. Sales job is to convert those leads. Okay, well what are the seven most critical systems? And we go through each department like that. And then, um, by getting seven, uh, we think of the departments, um, marketing, sales, operations, finance, hr, uh, uh, management. And we get seven in each of those. And then once that's achieved, we achieve what's called minimum viable systems, which basically means systems touches every role and every department in the business. And that typically is the turning point because everybody starts to feel, ah, uh, okay, yeah, I can see the positive benefits from here. And so, I mean there's a little bit to get there. And there's some other little quirks we picked up along the way. I mean you need to have a system for creating systems. And we learned that systems, um, development is a two person job, not a one person job. You have the person who does the task and then you have the system champion that then captures records and documents.

Speaker A: Yeah. Which I think is critical what you just said, because a lot of teams are asking the person who operates the process to be the documenter of it. And it's not necessarily the same skill as, you know, and as I've definitely learned along the way. Can we go one step further and maybe just emphasize it a little bit more? Because people are probably listening going, I love the systems champion. We all need one. Can you go and just make sure. I want to make sure our listeners are clear. Like how do we identify them if they're on our team? If we had to go find one, what is the best way to do it?

Speaker C: So I, as part of my sort of research, I said I was, I interviewed a whole bunch of business owners. When I started to go, um, what is uh, the successful element? Systems champion came up. Then I started interviewing a whole bunch of systems champions. Then I took all of the interviews and I fed it into AI and I said, tell me the common characteristics and qualities that you can see amongst all of them. So, um, basically the ones that it came up with was organizational skills, communication skills, problem solving ability, technical savviness, leadership potential. They don't need to be a leader, but have the potential to be good initiative. Um, probably one of the biggest ones also um, is capacity. Which that's why the business owner and the leadership team generally they're not the same thing.

Speaker A: And would you say David, even the person who's doing the process doesn't necessarily have the capacity to document it. Oftentimes usually one of the main ones. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah, oftentimes your best team members are your most busy team members. And the reality is process is always important, it's never urgent. And that's why for most businesses it never gets done because important non urgent work sits on a to do list. Um, and you know it's the busy client that needs help. That's uh, what gets attended to. So looking for those characteristics, I've seen a whole variety of uh, people fulfill this role like it can be. I've seen offshore people, I've seen one of my favorites is return to work mum or dads that have come back on part time capacity who may even have had some experience and work in process before or larger companies. But when they come back return to work, they're prioritizing flexibility so you can then pick them up at a really great rate. I've seen the other one that I've seen work really well is um, like a daughter or a son. I've now seen that a few times now work quite well because it's the mentor, mentee relationship um, and that tends to work well. Ah, I have seen them internally in the business. Like you might have this person already in the business. And something to keep in mind, the systems champion you have today might not be the systems champion you have in six months time.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: So you just get someone started. Um, but I've also seen now more like probably quite a few examples of the systems champion evolving into um, being like the gm, um, um, over a good number of years. So there's a lady, um, and her dad, uh, his name's Ryan Stannard, he runs a building business out here in Adelaide, Australia. Uh, and he got his daughter at 21. She came in and she started in interior design and she's curious and working underneath the interior designer. The interior designer ended up resigning and she ended up taking her role, systemizing the role. And then the dad was quite intuitive. He spotted it and said oh, you're quite good at getting these systems and processes into place. And she said oh well that's just how I learn, that's how I think.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: He said I want you to do that across the entire organization. So for the next 12 months she worked, uh, in little sprints with each department head, captured their best practice, put all of the knowledge into a central location, captured their most important process. And just recently, uh, Ryan had said she is the most intelligent person and understands the business at the deepest level because she's not just learned one particular role, she had visibility across the entire organization. So as an experiment, he ended up taking off seven weeks over, uh, the Christmas period, which for a lot of trades people, you know, if you're not on the tools, you're not making money. Yeah, she was in the role and the business continued to function. And for him that was the moment that he said, oh, wow, I, I, I can see this is actually possible. Whereas a lot of business owners that they don't, they, they, they hear it, but they don't believe it's possible for them.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Uh, and that, that was really a huge moment for him. So finding the right systems champion, um, can be the catalyst you've been looking for.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Because so many companies out there, you know, want to, let's just say, you know, AIs really sort of driven this thinking and they want to enable their business with AI, but it's not documented. They don't know the who or the where. That's why the systems champion, you know, they don't know where to find them. But I find there's sometimes like everything you said and they're curious. Yes, they're curious. But like, how, like how would this work? How you know, and the story you just told about, you know, uh, someone coming in and looking at every aspect of the business. That view you get is amazing. Amazing. I just love that. And so here's some rapid fire questions to sort of bring this around because I'm sure listeners are still thinking about this because every company out there is thinking about how do we document our systems, how can we leverage AI? And they go hand in hand. So one sentence answers, okay, so rapid fire, the first system.

Speaker C: Every company should document the system for creating systems.

Speaker A: Love it, love it. The most over complicated process.

Speaker C: You see, it's just the business system. Business owners over complicate their business.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, love it. What's one thing founders should stop doing immediately?

Speaker C: Thinking that they are, uh, the solution to everything, like that's what gets them stuck. And yeah, we don't want them to become the solution for systemization because that's the same problem that's got them stuck where they are.

Speaker A: Yes, yeah, absolutely. The best leadership lesson you've learned from

Speaker C: building businesses, look, it's always be the best example of what you teach. So, yeah, I just feel like you've got, you are the leader, which means from a process perspective, if you're in the business, working in it, you've got to follow the process too.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, finish this sentence. This is my last breath of fire. A business becomes truly valuable when it

Speaker C: works without the business owner.

Speaker A: Yeah, beautiful. Great answer. That was a really, really good job. Okay, how do people learn more about you, about your organization, about the work you're doing? Where's the best?

Speaker C: Just go to Amazon, search Systemology. If you like listening to this, there's an audiobook version of the book as well. And you're a business owner, get that book, Systemology, that's for you. And then if you've got a Systems champion, uh, same on Amazon. Uh, have a look for Systems Champion and that'll be the book for that team member. And then, yeah, if you need further help, just systemology dot com.

Speaker A: Yeah. Love it, love it. So, you know, here's the sort of big closing, big closing question. So, David, imagine a CEO listening today. They're running a 5 million, 20 million, even $50 million company. They're exhausted, they're carrying too much. They know they're. The bottleneck like this really resonated my listeners. You know, if it's resonating, I'm sure they're sitting, going, oh, my gosh, how do I get that book? What do I do? What's the first sort of practical step that they could just take this week without having to read anything, without having anything else? Like, they hang up from this podcast or like, what should I do next?

Speaker C: I've got an exercise that it sits on one page. You don't even need to buy the book to get it. I can explain it right now. And it's, uh, uh, the best diagnostic tool on where to get started and how to think about process. So it's called the critical client flow. Grab yourself an A4 bit of paper in the top left hand corner. Write your dream client and a primary product or service, and then I want you to just literally write the linear journey that that person goes through to deliver that product or service. So you start off and you say, how do we grab their attention? Now? Uh, the rule is you only write down what you're currently doing, not what you would like to be doing. So you write down how do we currently get people's attention, that dream client's attention. Then the next step down is how do we handle that incoming inquiry now only write one or Two words to describe each step. Don't write sentences, don't do extra details. Next one down. How do you then after you handle that inquiry, how do you handle the sales process? Then after the sales process, how do you collect the money? Do you collect a little bit up front or a little bit at the end? Then how do you onboard the client? Then how do you deliver and then how do you hand over and then get them to come back once you're done? If you map that journey with only what you're doing, one or two words to explain it, once you get to the bottom, then ask yourself the question, where in that critical client flow is the pain? What is the most painful bit? Circle it and start there.

Speaker A: Oh, uh, so good. So good. That is great. I can like, I'm very picture oriented, so I love that. It's like, start up at the top left, work your way down, and then circle it and get going. So I hope that people are listening in today have got some energy out of this. David, I know you have lots of energy around this and I really appreciate the work, all your work, because it reminds us that freedom doesn't happen by accident. When we're building an organization, we really have to be disciplined and thoughtful about it. And great businesses are not built on the heroic founders. They're built upon a team that can take it away from us. Right? And we got to let it go. I learned that. I learned that early on and I'm so grateful for it. For everyone listening, if you found value in today's conversation, please make sure you check out David's work. It's practical, as you just heard. It's foundational, and it's really connected to the AI enabled future. David, thank you. Thank you for joining us. It's been a great pleasure to speak with you.

Speaker C: Thanks for having me. Shannon, great to chat.

Speaker A: So if you, uh, are loving this, join us next time. We always have. We're always trying to bring it down to what you can do when you like. Stop listening from the podcast. David, your work is definitely fundamental. Be bringing it in with my clients and I look forward to sharing this with our coaches. Thank you again for being here. Thanks everyone for uh, joining us. We'll see you all again soon.