Taking "People First" from Hashtag to Playbook

This file was generated by Descript Voiceover: Maximize your accounting career by becoming high yield and low maintenance. With The Upstream Leader Podcast, your passport to improved knowledge, skills, and career potential. Stay tuned for insights, expertise, and thought provoking discussion. And now here's your host, Jeremy Clopton.

Jeremy Clopton: Welcome everyone to The Upstream Leader Podcast. My name is Jeremy Clopton. Excited to be with you for a conversation about creating a people first environment in public accounting. It's something that we've seen a lot about, that people take great pride when they're one of the great places to work or best firms to work for.

And we see people first plastered over all kinds of things. I think my favorite is when it becomes a hashtag, because that typically, in my mind, indicates we're probably not doing everything that we should if we're just trying to use it for marketing. So. I figured if we're gonna figure out how to do that, let's talk to someone that is executing people first in one of the best firms in the profession.

So for that conversation I have with me here today, Shish Cherian, who is with Donovan CPAs up in Indiana. Shish, good to have you on the show. Shish Cherian: Thanks, Jeremy. I'm excited to be here.

Jeremy Clopton: Yeah. I'm looking forward to the conversation. We chatted a little bit beforehand trying to figure out how we wanted to tackle this, and I'm excited with the direction that we're gonna go. But before we talk about making people first a thing I want to get your thoughts on, how did you become the leader that you are today?

Shish Cherian: Yeah, that's a great question. For me, leadership starts with servant leadership. At the heart of it, to be a great leader, you have to be willing to do a task that you're asking others to do. And so for me, in my role when I started, uh, it was actually for a professional employer organization, uh, on the client service side.

And so with the rapport I had kind of built up. With my clients. That was something that was recognized by our current managing partner at the time. He was the director of Audit, BJ Lippert.

Um, and so him and I had struck up a, a relationship and it's something that, you know, it's not just what you know, but who you know. And so BJ had kind of identified me as someone who, uh, he wanted to lead the people initiative at Donovan CPAs. And so it was thanks to his trust. Uh, that I was put into this seat and, uh, fast forward, you know, three and a half years later and, uh, I now head up the people operations at Donovan CPAs.

So it's a, it's an honor and a privilege. Jeremy Clopton: That's awesome. And Donovan is one of those firms that every time I talk with someone there, whether it's bj, other partners, employees, you can tell it is a place. Where people thrive and they feel supported, they feel like they're part of something bigger, that it's not just a place to go get a paycheck and put in the billable hours and go home.

At the end of the day, you can tell that the culture there is one that is very people focused. So I'm curious, when you joined, it's been three and a half years you said. The directive is something to the effect of people first, let's make this happen. How do you even approach that?

Shish Cherian: Yeah. Jeremy Clopton: In the profession of public accounting, because we're very client focused, we're very billable, hour driven, and a lot of what people interpret people first to mean isn't billable. So how do you get an initiative like that going and what exactly does that take? Shish Cherian: Yeah, that's a great question.

I'll tell you, you know, before you can execute, there has to be alignment in the leadership group, right? In the partner group. Uh, there has to be the belief. That, you know, affirm is more than just the financial statements and that the most important thing is not just partner profits, but actually the experience and beyond.

Why do you exist as a firm? So I'll save you the, the, the long story, but that's integral. And at Donovan CPAs, uh, the partner group said, we wanna be a firm that puts people first. And what that looks like is actually focusing on the team member experience.

It's one that we want. Our team members that come in to look at the lives of the partners and to say, Hey, that's something I want to aspire to be. And that shows up because our team members are encouraged to not just be great professionals, but also to be personally ambitious, right? We want our team members to be serving in the community.

We want them to be fantastic spouses or parents or whatever other things. And that can't happen if you're just. Trying to, you know, milk time for all it's worth. So it starts with alignment at the top.

And it's not just a, a, a fluffy feel good idea, which oftentimes it gets kind of labeled into the whole goal is to say. We want to think of the long-term game, and we want to create a culture where we're attracting the best talent because they're not only just great accountants, but they also care about people that they are. So Jeremy Clopton: you used the word alignment a couple times and I could tell it was very deliberate, that it was alignment. What is the difference?

In your mind and from a practical application, what's the difference between alignment and just simple agreement? Because I hear a lot of partners say, oh yeah, yeah, we gotta care about our people. And then some would tell you, eh, they say it, they might agree with it, but they don't really do anything about it. What differentiates for you?

Alignment from agreement? Shish Cherian: Yeah. To, to me it's the depth of agreement. So, so agreement is something where, uh, you can almost think of it as checking a box.

We wanna care about people. Yep. That sounds good. And we didn't ask the question how we're gonna do that?

What does that look like? What sacrifices are gonna be made? Alignment goes deeper. Alignment says, here's what we're sacrificing for the sake of this belief, here's what this means and how it impacts me.

And at the end of the day, the hope is to have both agreement and alignment, but alignment in my mind goes a lot deeper. Jeremy Clopton: Yeah, I really like that. And what you have to sacrifice is the part that a lot of folks tend to overlook. I know I've thought you know before.

Oh yeah, totally. Totally. In alignment on this or in agreement on this, and you realize, oh wait, I have to give up. What now?

Maybe this isn't exactly the thing that I'm gonna go for, but like you said, to get people first, it requires a change in focus. It requires partners to sacrifice time, energy, money, whatever it may be. For that greater good. Now, some people might come in and say, all right, that sounds great.

The partners have to be aligned, but you were hired to be people operations. Isn't this your job? Not theirs. Shish Cherian: Yeah.

You know, that, that is a, a common thought of, uh, and even in the HR industry of, uh, I talked to kids coming out of college to early professionals and this idea that, oh, you know, in, in hr we're gonna just make this a great place to work. And what they quickly realized, and what I did in, in my career is that, you know, my character or you know, my position. Cannot make this firm more or less generous. It cannot make this firm more or less kind.

Um, and ultimately it can't make this firm more or less people first. Jeremy Clopton: Mm-hmm. Shish Cherian: That has to come from leadership and, uh, from a leadership team that is aligned that then asked the question, which was posed to me, Hey, ish, here's where we wanna go. Can you help us get there?

And, and that's where we come in. Right. When it comes to actually creating strategy and execution, you know, that's, that's where great HR professionals shine. Jeremy Clopton: And that's such an important message for leaders to hear is it's not like people first is the example we're talking about, but there are probably many other examples of this where somebody thinks, well, I'll just go hire somebody to do that.

But the really important message here is look, if you're a leader, you can't just go hire somebody to do that and not believe in it and execute on that belief through your actions. What I'm hearing you say is that leaders have to demonstrate that it truly is what they're trying to create. Yes, they have hired someone whose expertise is execution of that thing, but they've gotta be as all in committed to it as well in order for it to be successful. Is that fair?

Shish Cherian: That's, that's fair, that's well said. You know, every, what firm doesn't want to project that they care about their people. Right. Uh, that's, that goes across the board.

It'd be silly to not do that. But on the HR side, it's a little bit unique, right? 'cause we're involved in, uh, the benefits renewals, we're involved in the creation and execution of a comp structure. And so you can present to your people one image, but when the doors are closed, when things aren't leaving the room.

And you've got decisions to make that either align with the values you say that you have or, or not. On the HR side, we, we see it all and uh, and so that's what I loved about my experience here at Donovan is Jeremy Clopton: yeah, Shish Cherian: it's not just something we say, it's something we do. Jeremy Clopton: Yeah. You mentioned HR and I don't know that it's fair, but HR probably doesn't get the best reputation.

I mean, look, I grew up, you know, working with internal auditors. They were the gotcha folks. Auditors probably feel that way. Tax professionals are probably like, yeah, well we're the tax people.

Right? And somebody maybe is thinking, well, we're HR and you know, people have all their opinions on us. But the way that you talk about it, yes, it's hr, but you are in charge of people operations. Voiceover: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Clopton: Which to me. Is more than just compliance. What exactly is people operations in a firm that's looking to be people first? Shish Cherian: I think it starts with the theory of organizational behavior.

And that was very impactful for me, learning how organizations behave and how do we at the end of the day, both increase organizational commitment. Uh, as well as increased performance, right? And so when you start with that, you then on the people operations side say, we're gonna apply the principles of organizational behavior to the way that we do hr. And so that's every from recruiting to offboarding and everything in between.

How do we ultimately create processes, procedures, and policies that are increasing organizational commitment. And increasing performance. And it sounds simple, but you'd be surprised at how many, uh, organizations lack clear roles and responsibilities, how many organizations, uh, I, we were in that place. And uh, and also, you know, even pointing towards many times there can be frustration at behavior that's not exhibited.

And there's just no clear communication or training on that behavior. Jeremy Clopton: Yeah. So what's required? You know, again, people first, I think some folks probably jump to, well, it's gotta be fun.

We probably need a ping pong table, maybe a, an open bar on Fridays. And often it seems like when we think people first, we probably. Overdramatize to the fun and the Silicon Valley, you know, tech startup life that was always portrayed in the early 2000s where people first means that you know, it's all about the people and they run everything and everything should be super fun and enjoyable and it should never feel like work. I know the folks at Donovan well enough to know they're working.

Yeah, they're getting things done. So I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, people first isn't all about fun and making sure it doesn't feel like work. So. What goes into people first?

You talked about clear roles and expectations. Obviously there's the traditional side on hr, like you mentioned benefits, pay those things, but I'm gonna go on a limb. Guess there's probably quite a bit more to that, that truly makes a firm feel people first. What are some of the most important areas in your eyes?

Shish Cherian: Yeah, let me first go on the record to say if a, a firm owner is considering a ping pong table or a beer tap or whatever fun idea. Let this not be the reason you don't install that or, or get that perk. I, I don't wanna Jeremy Clopton: Sure, Shish Cherian: sure, sure. Yes.

But, uh, but no, you're absolutely right. Um, you know, that's, we're not Jeremy Clopton: taking the fun out of it. It's just more than that. Shish Cherian: Yeah, exactly.

Um, but no, you're, you're right. That's the icing. It's not the cake. And there's a lot of ways you could approach that question.

Probably my favorite though, and I'm gonna borrow from the book, radical Candor and, and that's creating a people first firm means challenging directly and caring personally. Uh, and if you just do one of those things, well, you actually end up with ruinous empathy or, or a dictatorship, right? Where you're not, you know, developing trust, but. The caring personally, it goes to what we've talked about before, right?

Are you willing to be generous? Are you willing to be patient? Do your team members feel like you or the leadership team or the management team that you have in place cares about who they are as a person? Mm-hmm.

That they care about. If they have a bad day, they want to, they they care. They don't just say, well just do your work. Jeremy Clopton: What does that look like behaviorally, to care personally, because I'm thinking of, you know, a partner that may say, Hey, I'm.

I'm not really a small talk person. I tend to be a little, little more private. You know, I'm not gonna go into what's going on outside the office for me. Shish Cherian: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Clopton: But I'm a leader of people. How do I show up in a way that is authentic to who I am and it feels like I care because it's not that I don't, I'm just not, you know, small talk's not gonna be my jam. Shish Cherian: Yeah. Jeremy Clopton: So what does care personally.

Look like behaviorally. Shish Cherian: Yeah. I would tell that firm owner, you'd be surprised at how observant your people are. Uh, it's not something that you need to, to pretend to be something that you're not.

Um, and yet some of the most beloved firm owners I know in my experience, uh, it wasn't because of their amazing, you know. Small talk skills or that they stopped by every desk. Oftentimes it was displayed in that servant leadership. And what that means is, you know, working hard, not just expecting - to, to live to those values.

And when, you know, when you work hard and you show up and, um, someone's having, um, something personal and you're saying, Hey, you take care of that, let me, uh, either reallocate resources or even, you know, take that on. That goes so much further, uh, than being well-liked. And so, you know, it, it starts with that DNA and it starts with servant leadership working hard. Jeremy Clopton: Yeah, no, that's in incredibly helpful.

So you said it goes beyond just caring deeply though. Shish Cherian: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Clopton: So what's the other component? Shish Cherian: The other component is, is challenging directly.

And obviously there's background on you wanna have clear roles and responsibilities and, and things like that, but it's amazing to me how many organizations that say we're, we're a family, we're a family. And, and don't get me wrong, you, you want to have family values. But you know, at the end of the day, if you're have experienced that, uh. A healthy family system.

Hopefully you've experienced unconditional love. Right. Lemme tell you something. What we do when we compete in the marketplace, it is very conditional.

And so I always try to help owners understand it's not about family values. At the end of the day, you're a sports team or, or whatever team you wanna, you know, debate team, whatever the case is. Yeah. And so that means you need to put people, the right people in the right seats.

And, uh, when things aren't going the way they should, you need to be able to challenge directly and showcase. Hey, you know, this isn't gonna work. 'cause at the end of the day, you know, I, I play basketball personally, and I, I get along with, with lots of people, but I know that if I'm trying to win a game, I gotta surround myself with four other guys that are gonna work together ultimately to score more than the other team. And that looks like defense and offense.

So your CPA firm, it's no different. Right? At the end of the day, we do serve the marketplace providing whether it's tax services or audit. We have to exhibit excellence in our work product.

So Jeremy Clopton: yeah, how do you balance the two? Because they do seem a little bit at odds at times, right? It's like, Hey, I do care about you, but you're not the right person to help us land to this work. So you're staying at the office and I'm taking this other person to go on this prospecting call because they're gonna actually be a better fit to help us land the work.

So how do you balance? Caring deeply and challenging personally. Yeah. What does that look like?

Practically? Shish Cherian: Practically, you cannot be conflict averse. Mm-hmm. You need to be willing to have hard conversations, difficult conversations, but on the care personally side, you also have to be in that person's corner.

Um, and so at the end of the day, you know, if it's a deficiency in hard skills or a deficiency in soft skills, these are. Trainable things. One of our partners that has now retired, she, she's told me at a lunch when she started her career, she was, uh, in her own words, not mine, terrible with client interactions. She was.

Uh, afraid she didn't enjoy it, but someone believed in her enough to continue to give her those opportunities. They didn't just shut her up and say, do this tax return, but I'm not gonna let you talk to the client. And slowly she, uh, worked at it and she actually has developed some of the most. Loyal client relationships we have here at the firm.

Jeremy Clopton: Wow. Shish Cherian: And so all that to say, where that intersection lies is if you're willing to stay in someone's corner and provide them resources to get better and the encouragement and motivation, then that's how you, you care personally, but still challenge directly. Jeremy Clopton: Yeah. So it's one of those where, I mean, much like we talk about it on the client side, it's all about relationships.

It's not about the tax return or the audit report or the consulting engagement. It's about the relationships people first. It's about the relationships. They've gotta be meaningful, you've gotta have connection.

You know, you said earlier that the, the fun stuff is the icing, not the cake. So is it fair to say that the relationships and how you show up for people, you know you're in their corner, which means you care deeply, but also challenge them directly, is that that's the cake, so to speak? That's the key to people first is meaningful, caring relationships. Shish Cherian: Yeah, absolutely.

And it's something where your people will absolutely feel that. And it transparently it gets harder as you, as you get larger, right. But that's why it's so important. 'cause if you can train up your team and as you grow and hire on more, they're gonna continue to carry it, it out.

It can't all end with your character and your interactions. You have to lead with by example and ultimately, uh, end up becoming a leader of leaders. Right? Yeah.

Jeremy Clopton: It's so interesting. It's remarkably simple when you talk about it in a podcast. Shish Cherian: Yeah. Jeremy Clopton: Obviously the execution is not easy by any stretch, but when we really think about people first, we overcomplicate it.

We're thinking about all the policies, the procedures, the pay, the perks, all these different things. But it all comes back to, do you actually care meaningfully about the people that you work with, to the extent that they know you care, and they see that challenge as a furtherance of that caring, not punishment or some negative thing. So what are in your eyes then, if we've taken care of all of that, it's 2026. What are some of the.

Extras out there that you've seen are really important to people in this day and age. Right? So in the 90s it would've been different than it is in 2026 or even in the 80s or the early 2000s. What are some of the extras, some of the perks, the policies that you believe to be critical to furthering the people first culture in 2026?

Shish Cherian: Yeah, I really think of three things that, uh, come to mind. There's a lot of discussion and debate about remote work. Uh, is it here to stay? Is it going back, is there return to the office?

You know, at the end of the day, what you have to recognize is that. If you trust your people and trust them to do good work and they have demonstrated a, a trustworthiness, then whether you land on, you know, in person or hybrid, have the flexibility, you know, to support them in the life that they're wanting to live. And so, you know, if it's important to someone to. Pick up their kids from school or drop 'em off travel.

Be a firm that can support that. Because the truth of the matter is with technology the way it is, we have the ability to do great work all across the nation. And so, you know, my encouragement to firm owners would be if you rely on high performance being achieved because you're looking over someone's shoulder. That's just not a long-term sustainable solution, and you're not gonna attract top talent by continuing to operate that way.

I know I might, uh, be getting some disagreement, uh, on that point that I, I'm willing to discuss that further. But, you know, for me, just as I've observed the landscape, that's definitely where I see us headed. So, so that'd be, that'd be one. The, the second that comes to mind is, you know, I've talked about, uh, people operation system.

At the end of the day, the, the gut check is this, it's do our policies and procedures from, you know, recruiting all the way to offboarding. Is it something that. Our team enjoys it, excited, it, it makes sense. Or is there a lack of clarity?

What I do both for Donovan as well as now, you know, our, our local client base is help organizations create effective people operation systems. And so, you know, my encouragement to a firm owner would be, if you don't have that, it's time to, to ensure that you, you do, because that does make a big difference. When it comes to retention. So that would be kind of the second and, and then the last one, it's one we haven't touched on, but I think it's, it's one of the most important and that's.

When, when you have a client base, you have to ask yourself, are we supporting our team members by the clients that we're choosing to work with? And at the end of the day, whether if it's a pricing issue or even a character issue, you have to be willing. To have your client base support where you're headed to go, and a client that may have been good for the firm in, you know, inception or, or year two, may not be the right one in future years. Because at the end of the day, if for, for us, for example, we don't want our team members to work insane hours that some of our partners had to, you know, when they first started in the profession.

Well, if, if you're going to make that a goal. You also then have to have a client base that is willing to pay the amount needed to support lower hours. Uh, you can't do both. You can't have lower hours and also either under pressure engagements or, or whatever the case is.

So there's gotta be alignment there as well. Jeremy Clopton: It's a really important point on the client side of it, and one that I would say a lot of folks don't consider in creating the right environment for their people, but I would agree with you 100% if you're trying to create one culture, but your clients demand another. It's gonna feel just so conflicting and there's gonna be so much tension constantly. Because you're right.

If you're trying to create an environment where people don't have to work insane hours, but your entire client base expects to have their staff accountant's phone number and they can call them at 11 o'clock at night, that's gonna be counter to everything that you're trying to build. So it isn't just, do we put in the policies, the procedures, the flexibility. You know, do we trust our people? And I would agree with you, not disagree with you on that one.

If we're gonna trust 'em with our biggest client relationships, I'd sure hope we can trust them to work when they say they're going to. But that may be a whole nother conversation. But everything, you're right, it's a system and we have lots of systems for doing the work. We have lots of systems for client experiences.

If we're really going to build the firms that are going to be competitive and sustainable in the future, we have to have people systems, because people are the key. They will be our competitive advantage. They will be our big differentiator, and in my mind. No matter how much technology we have, our profession is built on the people, and we've gotta have great people that want to do great things, and those systems are required for that.

So I appreciate what you have shared. You mentioned the book, radical Candor. Any other resources that you would recommend for firm leaders that are trying to improve in this space? Shish Cherian: I would highly recommend the author Patrick Lencioni.

He's got a, a plethora of books, um, if obviously point out one to start with. It's actually a, a book study we're currently doing with our team. Um, it's the ideal team player. And, uh, essentially the spoiler is you, you as an organization, want your firm to be full of ideal team players.

And an ideal team player is humble, hungry, and smart. And so it elaborates on that point, uh, a lot more. I would highly encourage, uh, an owner if they haven't read that book to, to pick it up and check it out. A lot of lencioni's work is, is great in that organizational behavior space.

Jeremy Clopton: I would echo that. That's a wonderful book. I would agree. I don't know that I've read any of his and thought, wow, that's, that was a fail.

In fact, I think I have almost all of his and recommend them regularly. I would agree with you on that. Great work there on organizational behavior. So if you're looking to the future 15, 20, 25 years and you know, you're looking at Shish at that point in his career, who are you working to become as a leader?

Shish Cherian: Yeah, who, who I want to, to be as a, as a leader at the end of the day is someone who cares for the team above my own individual goals. And that when people work at Donovan CPAs and I say, this is gonna be one of the best decisions in your professional career, that that plays out to be, to be true. So, um, at the end of the day, I want my legacy to be one that was. Others?

Focused. Focused and more of a celebration of what we as a firm have accomplished than anything I've done individually. Jeremy Clopton: Outstanding. Thank you for that.

Uh, and if folks have questions, they want to talk more. I know, uh, you enjoy this topic and are open for conversations. What's the best way for 'em to get in touch with you? Shish Cherian: Yeah, so I'm active on LinkedIn.

Love for, uh, anyone interested to reach out and connect. Um, also available through, uh, my email. That's s chaan at CPA donovan.com.

I'm always happy to chat at the end of the day. For me, on the HR side of things, I celebrate firms that are trying to take care of their people. So if I can be, uh, of help, I'd love to have a conversation. Jeremy Clopton: Outstanding ish.

Thank you so much for joining me. I have really enjoyed the conversation and look forward to having another one again soon. Shish Cherian: Absolutely. Likewise.

Thank you so much, Jeremy. Voiceover: Thanks for joining us on The Upstream Leader Podcast. We hope today's episode has enriched your understanding of what it takes to become a high performing leader in the accounting profession. If you'd like to hear more episodes.

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