The Upstream Leader Podcast

The episode centers on a genuinely useful reframe - L&D as consulting rather than content manufacturing - and explores how to embed learning into organizational culture. However, the core insight (training ≠ learning, consulting ≠ compliance) is established early and then mostly elaborated rather than deepened. Most of the middle section retreads the same consultative philosophy without novel tactical substance. The professionalism example and Future Leaders Academy structure provide some concrete detail, but the episode lacks surprising claims or data-driven arguments about what actually drives capability development.

“My mind goes to consulting. So partnering with our leaders across the firm, it's not about filling out a course request form and pushing it through”

“the more time I've spent working in L&D, the less I believe training is the answer to most of the problems brought to us”

The core thesis - L&D should shift from content production to strategic consulting - is not new in L&D circles, though it may be novel for accounting specifically. The CEO's framing of 'L&D is the new R&D' is clever and offers some fresh branding, but the underlying logic (investment in talent = competitive advantage) is conventional. The approach mirrors trends in advisory-focused functions across professional services. The guest does not present contrarian or first-principles thinking; instead she validates and elaborates on already-circulating best practices (executive sponsorship, capability mapping, talent pipeline alignment).

“L&D is the new R&D”

“It's not a program. It's part of the greater system”

Allyson Roote is VP of L&D at a mid-sized accounting firm and has operated a learning function at scale for 11 years. She has built and evolved a real program (Future Leaders Academy) with measurable outcomes tied to partnership pipeline. This is genuine practitioner credibility, not theoretical expertise. However, she is not a CEO, COO, or managing partner who has made strategic firm-level decisions independent of L&D; her authority is functional and staff-side. She has hands-on experience but limited P&L or enterprise accountability.

“I've been at the Bonadio Group for 11 years now almost”

“we do feel through our programs like Future Leaders Academy. It's become, it's not a program. It's part of the greater system”

The episode names Bonadio Group, The Bonadio Group's CEO (Bruce Zakaria), COO (Bob Enright), and Future Leaders Academy (6-year-old program with rotating cohorts and three focus pillars: leading self, leading others, leading the firm). The professionalism training pivot is explained with one concrete example. However, there are almost no metrics: no data on program completion rates, adoption, time-to-partnership, or business impact. No dollar figures, no participant numbers, no comparative benchmarks. The structural details (two sub-teams, quarterly business reviews, training directors embedded in service lines) are mentioned but not quantified or evidenced.

“Future Leaders Academy, which has been running for six years now”

“focuses on leading self, leading others, and leading the firm. And it's a rotating program, so individuals enter while others are graduating”

Jeremy asks solid foundational questions (How did you transition leader mindsets? How do you understand business needs? How do firm leaders participate?) and shows genuine listening with follow-ups like 'How can a leader tell?' when L&D becomes systemic. However, he rarely pushes back, probe disagreement, or test Allyson's claims. When she says 'it's not easy,' he accepts it without pressing for failure examples or trade-offs. He doesn't challenge the scalability of the consulting model or ask about resource constraints. The closing - book recommendations - is polite but surfaces-level. The conversation feels collegial rather than rigorous.

“So what was interesting is I was, on LinkedIn a couple months back. I saw one of your posts and it said that the more time I've spent working in L&D, the less I believe training is the answer to most of the problems brought to us. So I'm curious. Where are you at on this?”

“How did you know when L&D became part of the broader system, not just another program?”