Why Customer Focus and Culture Matter More Than Technology - A Discussion with Nick Atkin

Speaker A: Okay. Welcome to this latest episode of the Transformation Leaders Podcast. The place where leaders and change makers gather to explore the essentials of organizational change and transformation. Each episode dives deep into personal insights, practical strategies and powerful experiences from thought leaders around the globe, helping you become a more impactful leader. On this episode you'll learn why transformation is never a one time event, why, how culture and customer focus are the real catalysts for innovation, and um, what leaders must do to truly engage stakeholders. Whether you're working in housing or driving transformation elsewhere, mixed insights will challenge your assumptions and spark, uh, fresh ideas. I've been looking forward to this session. Um, I've worked in and around social housing now for the past decade or so and throughout that time I have heard repeatedly that my guest is a trailblazer in the sector. Ah, so let me introduce the CEO of Yorkshire Housing, Nick Atkin. Nick, welcome to the Transformation Leaders Podcast.

Speaker B: Thanks Tony. Thanks for having me. Really good to be here.

Speaker A: No, it's good. I've let the cat out the bag in terms of um, what you're doing at the moment, CEO of Yorkshire Housing. But please do share a little bit about your background and your career to date just to build the context of our discussion moving forward.

Speaker B: Oh gosh, right, okay. This makes me feel really old. So I was, I was born and brought up in, in Donny, still follow the, the Mighty Reds and their push for promotion out of league two. Um, and um, uh, much to my father's uh, horror, uh, I decided to, when I was 18 to go across the dirty side of the Pennines to um, Manchester to, to do my degree in geography with environmental studies. And um, basically that's where I got the housing book, uh, because the last two years of that were, were all housing modules. So I left there, became a rent collector, uh, at Warrington Council, ah, collecting rent cash at that point in a leather satchel, uh, riding a motorbike around the mean streets of Warrington, which was good fun. Uh, and um, then I've worked for several housing associations, uh, in Manchester, uh, in uh, Lancashire, but obviously tried to get out of there as soon as I could. Um, so I went down to, to the Midlands, um, and then I worked for what some of your listeners might still remember, but was the housing inspector which was part of the Audit Commission. Uh, so I headed up the team that uh, covered the north of England. Great job. Uh, dead interesting. Got to see loads of things that worked really well and the odd thing that didn't work so well. And then I went from there to Halton and um, head, um, Olsen Housing, um, and I had um, a number of uh, fab years there, uh, uh, before I came back home, um, to my roots. Uh, just six years ago actually, um, last week. So, uh, yeah, joined um, Yorkshire Housing. An absolutely, uh, loving life. Best job I've ever had.

Speaker A: Brilliant for our international listeners. Just to uh, do a bit of translation for Nick here, Donnie is Doncaster in Yorkshire. Uh, Yorkshire and Lancashire where I'm from, Lancashire, uh, there's a, there's a historic rivalry and uh, although we do like each other really because we're collectively Northerners, so I think there's a bigger issue about North South Divide rather than Yorkshire Lancashire. But there is a bit of rivalry between the two. Um, and it's good to say that you've got all your education in Manchester, so what more can I. Oh, I

Speaker B: knew I shouldn't have revealed that.

Speaker A: So, um, we start this uh, um, um, podcast off with the same question. Uh, because the whole focus of the. The podcast is organizational transformation. But transformation means a lot of things to a lot, uh, for. To different people. So how do you define transformation?

Speaker B: No, it's a good one, isn't it? Because I, I always have a bit of a problem with, with the term director of, you know, transformation or a director of transformation, even though I one fully enough. And he's probably listening to us thinking, oh my goodness me, what's he about to say? Because I always think that it's almost like it, it makes it sound like transformation is a point in time and that there's one thing that you need to do and then everything's magically transformed and all sorted and it isn't. I mean for me transformation is just, it's just a, uh, it's part of change. And change is, is the only constant. You know, I say to my colleagues in Yorkshire Housing, the only thing I can guarantee you is change. The only thing I can guarantee is that you will doing the same thing that in two to three years time that you're doing at the moment. And also that a number of roles that don't even exist at the moment will be created and there'll be some roles that we don't need anymore. But that also brings opportunity. As humans, I don't think we're great at dealing with change. Um, and I think there's a small proportion of people who love change and if things aren't continually changing and evolving, they almost become, um, slightly grumpy. But for the majority of people, they hear the word change and go, that means threat. That means something, something, uh, to worry about. So I think the whole transformation piece, for me, it's just about how do you take the organization on another step? Another step, another step in its journey.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. And I think all too often we talk about a transformation program and just get rid of the word program because as you say, transformation is constant. And although, yes, you'll be delivering programs of work or programs of change, the transformation director or chief Transformation Officer and chief exec and the senior leadership team need to keep one head above the parapet, don't they, and look on the horizon to say, okay, what's the next wave? What's going to impact us moving forward? So, yeah, this, this whole thing around, it's a transformation program. It's not its transformation in my world.

Speaker B: Yeah, I, I absolutely agree with you. And I think there's that thing also about, you know, what, what people's roles are to look ahead. So, you know, where my head's at the moment. You know, here we are in 2025, but I'm thinking about what the organization is going to be doing in 2028, 2029, 2030 and beyond. And genuinely that's what I spend a lot of my time doing. Um, and some of my colleagues become quite frustrated with me because when we agree something that's going into our change program, um, at that point, it's agreed in my head, it's already done. Yeah, it's already delivered. So, you know, we're halfway through, um, you know, a big salesforce implementation. But every time I see that we're doing another step in that journey, I think, oh, God, yeah, we've not put that in fully yet. Uh, you know, I've already assumed that's in and working and sorted and doing what it needs to do. So I think you're right. I think there's that thing about you need to always have that, ah, future focus and view about where you're heading so that you can start putting the steps in place to get there. And I suppose that's what transformation is, isn't it? It's filling the blanks in on what are those steps needed to get to where we need to be.

Speaker A: Totally, uh, uh, absolutely. So you've operated primarily in the sort of housing sector, uh, throughout your career. Lots of different roles. Um, I won't go into the, uh, um, uh, any more detail about your experiences in Warrington. Walking around with a leather bag. That's probably not something that we want to talk about. But anyway, I'm sure over that, over your career there's been masses and masses of change within the sector but if you sort of can sort of look back and say actually yeah, uh, that was a massive step forward for me or the organisation that you were working with or the sector as a whole. What, what, what would you say were the sort of the two or three big, big things that you, you, you've sort of uh, seen over the years?

Speaker B: Oh, what a great question. Um, I think in some ways I think um, I get frustrated with the sector because I think that uh, um. It's never really had a burning platform like other sectors had, have had and, and as such it's, it's quite, it's been quite risk averse and it hasn't needed to drive forward with, with um, significant and rapid change. And um, I think the thing that's changing interestingly and I think the thing. One of the big sort of changing points which was a societal change was the pandemic. And I think we've come out of the pandemic and um, um. And I think people are basically less forgiving and more demanding and I think that has. That caused a problem for the housing sector about two to three years ago, um, where we were quite rightly criticised for how we were handling repair requests, our uh, management of things like dam mould and compensation, but also how we're dealing with complaints as well. And I think what. And that's been quite a pivotal period in terms of resetting that relationship and I think, you know, I genuinely also welcome the reset of the approach by the regulator because you know our uh, last regulator engagement which was three years ago, you know, we had to mention customer about two and a half hours into our interview with the regulator. Whereas now it's absolutely front and center in terms of their assessment and indeed we have a separate uh, rating now for, for how well you're delivering services for your customers. So I think that that customer focus has, has quite rightly come. I think the bits I'm still frustrated at Tony is uh, that we're still building homes in the same way we did in the 15th century out of stone and mud. It's just that we call it bricks and mortar. Uh, um, and we, we still have got, you know, uh, the management of our homes is just the wrong way around. You know the average car today, the average bog standard car has about 3,000 sensors in it. You are lucky if a home has more than five sensors in it. And I think that whole thing about. We haven't embraced technology as an enabler uh, to enhance our service offer for customers and also improve the efficiency for our sector. So um, uh, so a long answer to short question, but I suppose my big thing is that the whole premise of the landlord offer is the wrong way round. We wait for things to happen, we wait for our customers to tell us that they've happened and then we deal with that in a really inconvenient, expensive uh, way. And um, instead of actually preempting a lot of that can be preempted. And instead um, looking at that in a different way. There's also something around the other big change has been how people work. Um, and um, particularly the, the move to flexible working. Although it's interesting to see that uh, that now has taken two very distinct routes. There are those organizations who are insisting on returning to the 19th century workhouse approach of insisting people are chained to a desk for a certain number of days per week. And then there are perhaps the more uh, enlightened ones who sort of say you know what people are over the 18, the grown up adults that can be trusted. Let's just deal with the 0.2% of people who abuse the trust, replacing them rather than penalizing the 99.8%.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. We'll come back to the wider point around the sector. Uh, in some of the, as you say the innovation or the opportunity of innovation that's probably not been taken on as, as well as some of the other, some of the other sectors. But that whole concept of return to work uh, or return to the office, not to return to it is, isn't it, it's just completely broken mentality around um, you know let's, let's, let's worry about being present as opposed to productivity. Yeah. And uh, and, and that's the focus. So, so there's this natural belief. I don't know whether it is belief or not but actually if you're in an office you're more productive and, and I know uh, personally when I'm in the office you get involved in so many little discussions which sometimes are really beneficial. You know that sort of water cooler discussions are good but there's often too many of them. So your productivity reduces and, and getting that balance and what works for the individual is, is, is critical isn't it? I think anyway, from a, an organization perspective being able to create an environment where individuals can thrive should be ultimately you know, what, what, what every senior managing need wants to put in place for the, for, for their team.

Speaker B: Yeah, A.B. absolutely. I mean and you know I, I Think about, um, you know, and I'm not saying, just to be clear, I'm not saying that you never need to go into an office or never need to come together. Of course, as human beings, we're sociable animals and we need to actually make, you know, ensure that we are able to, to sort of get the value from when we come together. But you don't get value from forcing people to, it's like, you know, forcing people to have fun at a party. You know, it doesn't work. So you need to sort of say to people and give them the right environment as well to come together. You know, we still have, you know, I, uh, I mentioned the workhouse mentality, but you know, so many organizations I still go to now, banks and banks of desks, you know, sort of sterile environment where people are thrown down or even worse, people still have their own desk, you know, with, you know, their plan and picture of the kids because apparently they never see them because they're always at work and all this nonsense, you know, um, but it's that whole thing about reimagining all of that and going, well, why do we do that? Why, for example, why was the 9 to 5? Why do we work 9 to 5? The only reason we work 9 to 5 is because in 1926, Henry Ford invented that as a way of, a more productive way of producing cars. But guess what? We don't, we don't produce cars. We deliver services to customers who expect, Certainly don't expect a 9 to 5 Monday to Friday service. But in housing terms, that's still what the core offer is. Um, and so I think, I think that the flexible working has to be linked, has to be linked inextricably linked to an enhanced customer offer as well. The two have to go hand in hand.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I think that comes back to that early point. Wasn't it around that whole customer focus, any, any sector that doesn't have customer as number one focus for, for the sector, there's ah, something wrong with that, isn't it? And you're right, you know, it's only relative. Recently that, that that customer focus with it from a regulator has come in and that has in my experience transformed a lot of organizations in the way that they view that customer because they're being measured by it now where, you know, if you're a commercial organization that ultimately, um, you know, you succeed by your ability to, to sell to customers. Uh, the focus is always on that, isn't it? Or not always, but primarily on the customer with, um, Non for profits or for maybe um, more sort of public sector then that as I think has got a little bit neglected over the years. Um, and it's good to see that it's been really pushed now across the sector.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think I always try and I always try and think about things about well, what would, what happens in my non. Work life because sometimes you come to work and you apply a different filter for some weird reason. We all can do it sometimes. So I always try and strip it back and go, okay, so if this happened in my, in my home life, how would I, or my personal life, how would I respond? And I think you know about those organizations that give me great service. It's about how they make me feel. It's not what they do, funnily enough, it's how they make me feel when they do it. And then I also think about those organizations that provide a shocking service and I'm happy to name them if you want me to. Um, and it's, it's, it's the same but it's actually because they make me feel really, really angry because they are delivering a service that is for the benefit of either their staff or their uh, their, their own company as opposed to the people who are using their services.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I agree, I agree. And, and, and it is, it's, it's really basic stuff, isn't it? But all too often things get in the way of the, the simple basic, uh, base, basic elements of good business practice.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And, and it is, and I think it's that, it's that filter sometimes that comes down because it is sometimes when something's, you know, in our organization is by a long way from perfect. But you know, and when things do go wrong, you know, you sometimes ask people why did you do that? Yeah, you can see like the light bulb gone and go. I've got, I've just got no idea. That's. Yeah, I'm, you know, I've got no rational reasons as why I did that other than, you know, I was in work mode. And you're like, right, okay, well that's really interesting.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So anyway, sorry, I'm violently agreeing with you, Tony.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting because one of the things that we talk about within, um, sort of transformation and, and you know, the nine pillar framework that I built within the transformation leaders body of knowledge was that you know, you've got to get a balance and you've got to look at through the lens of each of the nine pillars. One of those pillars, um, um, is stakeholders and partners. Um, and one of the, one of the stakeholders in every organization is customers, the other is culture and the third one is, is people. So that, and it's those three elements that really will primarily determine whether your transformation is going to be successful or not. Because if you haven't got those coming on that journey with you, it's probably irrespective, you've got the, the clearest vision, you've got all the best technology, you've got the best governance structure. It's, those are the three enablers that can determine whether or not you go succeed or not. So it'd be interesting just to explore from your perspective that stakeholder partner piece, because you've got probably a lot more stakeholders than a lot of organizations have that can have an impact and an influence on um, your future success as an organization. So it'd be interesting just to get your views and experiences of managing challenging stakeholders, both internal and external.

Speaker B: Right, okay. Uh, so managing challenging stakeholders, that's a slightly different angle on it.

Speaker A: Uh, let's start simple.

Speaker B: Um, I, I, it's interesting this because I, I actually think that if you get the people in the culture piece, right, all the other bits slot into place. So for me, if you were to say this is like an onion, right? At the core of that onion is people and culture. So on our, so for example, our big, our big strategic ambition is to shift, as I mentioned, the pretext of the landlord service offer for Yorkshire Housing from reactive to preemptive. And we've identified the biggest single risk to achieving that, uh, is changing the culture and the mindset of our people. Yeah, and so, uh, that's on our strategic risk register. Funny enough, most people look at it and go, wow, that's weird. You know, sort of, you know, expect the usual stuff on there, but not that, um, but I think in terms of that then ripples out to how you manage your stakeholders. And for me, I think, I look at, I look at the sort of stakeholder manage. My job is always to employ people, to surround myself with people who are uh, far better at uh, what they do than I can ever dream of being and just letting them get on with it. So creating that um, that culture and that ability for people just to thrive and, and be at their best. And it all sounds a bit twee that, but I suppose the, the stakeholder management is around knowing who you need to have the relationship with and um, and people do business with people. It's as simple as that. And so sometimes you might assume that Me and my role as chief executive have X relationship with why person in another organization. But for whatever reason the chemistry might not be there and it might be better for somebody else to manage that relationship. So you know, we have, I suppose, um. Well, what phrase would you put on it that most people would. I suppose I hear this phrase person centric. But um, I suppose it is that uh, we, we look at our stakeholder map and go, right, okay, who's got the best relationship with that person or that organization to sort of, you know, move that along to where we need it to be. And I, I have in my head a bit of a visual image, I generally think, in images of a really large stove top and loads and loads of patterns and some of them are simmering, um, some of them I've got on the heat and bringing them up to the boil. And that's relationships really. So there are times when I just need to keep things ticking along. Then there's other times when I need to really draw on that relationship and um, and sort of, you know, spend time and invest energy into bringing that up to the boil. So um, I think, I think also when, when sort of those relationships go wrong, you need to sort of look at why. And I think we have got ourselves as, as just as a world really into, into this really quite negative approach of just doing everything via Rick and communication, predominantly email, but also instant messaging and you know what, people misinterpret so often what's said and the, you know, the tone of voice on stuff. And I, I've lost track, Tony, of the number of times I've said to people when, when relationships are starting to unravel, say, have you just picked up the phone?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Have you picked up the phone? Or have you just gone and said, let's go to, you know, ex coffee shop, neutral place and let's just sit down, have a, have a brew. Um, obviously we have Yorkshire tea rather than coffee, but let's have a brew, a proper brew. And then um, and then actually just chat it through face to face and there's not enough for that. So I think for me, if you, you talk about stakeholder relationships, whether it's internal or external, um, it's about you as a person. It's about being authentic. It's about being honest and genuine, being realistic as well about what you can do and what you can't do or what you won't do, um, and explaining the reasons for that. And um, and we have the same approach internally as we do externally. And I'll be honest, it's not for everyone. I get that, uh, there are some people who find, um, you know, our internal culture perhaps a little bit too direct and a little bit too blunt, bit too Yorkshire. Um, so we send them off over the Pennines, we drop, we drop down the barbed wire, throw them over the fence and put the barbed wire. Um, but, you know, I'm joking. I, you know, we, we. But we, we, we do actually believe that, you know, we're a people business. So, you know, let's get less hung up on process. Let's get less hung up on contracts and written information and let's just spend more time with people.

Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, there's so many key messages that came out of, um, you know, that, that last couple of minutes, really. That whole concept of aligning the right people to various stakeholders that naturally get on.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: If that chemistry is not there, it's very difficult to build chemistry. But if it's there, you can naturally overcome challenging situations really easily, can't you? But all too often it's hierarchical, you know. Well, if it's a chief exec, it needs to be talking to a chief exact. Or, you know, as you go down and it doesn't. M. Doesn't make any sense. And it doesn't, doesn't matter. It's just get the right people align to the right people, um, and things can happen. But, but I totally agree. That whole concept of when things are starting to go wrong, pick the phone up, go and have a coffee with them, just, um, sit down, talk it through. Nine times out of ten, it's nowhere near as big as you think it's going to be.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: It's not as nasty as you think it's going to be. You can talk it through. But if you're bouncing emails back and forth, back and forth, it will get to the point where it gets really, really nasty because you can't, you don't really. You can't understand the nuances, can you, within the emails.

Speaker B: No. No. And also, you know, people get. Well, uh, scroll down. It's in the email. I sent you six emails, guys. Like, really?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: If that's the point which you. That's the sign, isn't it? Pick up a phone.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. Although, you know, there are some of my colleagues who are of an age where I don't actually think they've ever made a phone call. You know, they, they sort of. You think the phone's used for instant messaging, so.

Speaker A: Yeah, I, um, I know going off A bit of a tangent, but I was that uh. This was probably about 10 years ago. I remember going to a discussion, um, that um, at one of the universities, I think of one of the real educated universities of. In Lancashire. And um, I'm, I can't remember what the subject matter was but the um, the, the. The professor um, was saying about the change in demographics and um, the fact that um, the generation. So it. Be. It be the generation that's coming into the workforce now won't be able to use their index fingers. Everything will be on thumbs. And I remember thinking what. Because every, you know, you would do. You know, we'd always do index fingers. I look at my, my children now and it's just thumbs. Uh, and it's like, wow, I can take technology and things change. The way that we actually utilize our, our bodily functions is uh, amazing. And it's.

Speaker B: Yeah, but again you, you watch. It's interesting. I've got three kids as well and mine are all sort of. Thankfully they've all left home now, which is great. Um, but um, it's safe. They never listen to anything I do, so I know they'll never, never hear that. Um, but you know, you look at them time. Interestingly, they're great. Such typists, you know, because they've, they've grown up with keyboards. They know you don't have to bang a keyboard. You know, when you're in, when you're in a workspace and you can hear its keyboard being hammered, you look across and it's normally somebody of a certain age. You know, that's good. They, they, they've absolutely. So I get what you say about the thumbs but I think, you know, they, they are very, very. They're. They're the sort of digital natives, aren't they really, this space.

Speaker A: So coming back to the point that we were talking about earlier around, um, the sector not grabbing old of innovation.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, and stuff. Interestingly enough, the I, I recorded uh, an episode of, of the podcast a couple of weeks ago which will be coming out uh, this week and, and that was around sort of the natural link between innovation and transformation and how innovation can drive transformation and vice versa. Um, but coming back to the social housing sector and the fact that they've probably not grabbed old of the, the innovation that's out there, modular buildings, you know, all, all of all the stuff that we, that we know and the sensors in the in. In the in. In the properties and such like. Why do you think that is? What, what, what stopped that? Do you Think,

Speaker B: oh, well, stop that. Um, I generally think it's because we've not had a burning platform. If we'd have, if we'd have been under the pressure that some of the other sectors, um, have faced. So the, the easiest example is local authorities. You know, they, they've had what, depending on which local authority is about between a 40 or a 7 to 70% real terms cut in revenue funding over the last 10 years. That's just, yeah, eye watering, isn't it? And at the same time, the fact in, you know, a spiraling cost of, of adult social care costs and also children's services costs, so, and temporary accommodation, so you just think, wow, you know, they've been hit from both sides and they've. I'm not saying councils are necessarily really innovative. I think some have come up with some good solutions, some probably less so. Um, but I, I just don't think we've had that, that real driving force to think differently and act differently and, and you know, my evidence for that is, um, we're part of the Disruptive Innovation Network, which set up by Ian Wright and, and has got, you know, a group of housing organizations in there who are trying to do some interesting stuff. And Ian sort of and his team link you up with, with really interesting organizations who are, who are trying to do some interesting stuff as well. But I just think there's, um, that there's a bit of a sheet mentality, so, you know, everybody tends to go with the pack. And I suppose, if I'm being honest, um, you know, been in a regulated sector where regulation, you know, the level of regulation has increased. It always goes a bit like a roller coaster in peaks and troughs. And I think we are at a point of, uh, a peak in regulation at the moment. Um, and I'm not saying whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, just in case the regulator is listening. So, uh, it's unusual on that point. But nevertheless, I think that also can lead people into a bit culturally in terms of when we'll wait to be told what to do. And I think that's really dangerous. I think it's a really dangerous space for organizations to step into. So, um, I think there's lack of a burning platform. I think there's. Where we are, uh, in terms of culturally and, um, the regulation of the sector. Um, and I think also, uh, I think, um, as a sector we're quite difficult to, to sort of work with. A, uh, bit like the nhs, we have our own language and for organizations trying to trying to break in. And um, you know I've got some great products. It's quite hard to find a route to market for them. You know it's like they've got yeah 200 housing associations that are over what a thousand homes. So they've got 200 sub. By the time they've had that you know they're out of business. So um, and I think we always want proof of concept. We don't have a mentality of um, fail fast, fail cheap and um, and giving things a go. Um it, it's very much about or who else has done this, how do we benchmark against everybody else? And, and I just think that that leads to a bit of a spiral of mediocrity. Um and I'm not saying everybody's you know, mediocre. Of course in every world there are some really, really some really great stuff that some organizations are doing and you've got to applaud that, uh, that. But I think generally if you look at uh, if I go back to my core point the pretext of the landlord service offer is still the wrong way around and we still haven't got our homes connected with sensors. We still aren't making use of the, the rich data that we've got. We still aren't using and embracing AI uh as a driver for change of that and we still aren't using real time customer sentiment analysis. If we were retail we will be Woolworths or WH Smith.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No I agree. I think the whole concept just taking out of the sector again some critical points. The need for a burning platform to really drive change is so critical. Um and sometimes you've got to create a burning platform or a cliff edge aren't you? And, and, and uh, get the momentum going. Um. But, but I think in my experience um, I've always said during, during the last decade when I've been working in and around social housing it's a nice, it's a nice sector to work within people. It's full of nice people that are probably in the sector because it's vocational. Um, and, and they want to, they want to do something and put something back into the community. So um, but, but I think the counter to that is it's quite comfortable and, and, and because that burning platform's not there and, and when you are introducing stuff or looking to do things slightly differently, there isn't, there isn't a natural tension is, is probably um, and, and people don't like and, and be interested. My experiences don't necessarily like conflict. Um, so if you, if you're pushing them, they'll, well, um, you know, they'll want to get consensus a little bit. Like what you're just saying, as opposed to going out on a limb and saying, yeah, we're going to do it this way. Is that, that your take as well, or is that just me being, um, uh, an external trying to sell services into the sector, trying to make successful at doing it?

Speaker B: I think it's a fair summary. I mean, you know, nobody grows up sort of saying, I want to work in housing. You know, people want to be a footballer or an astronaut or whatever, or social media influencer or whatever else. But, you know, people stumble, generally stumble into housing. I suppose, um, I'm probably the exception that I chose to go into it because of my journey, as I said before, when, when, um, I was breathing in the smog in Manchester and clouded my judgment in terms of my last two years. But, um, but I think once you get into it, you do get bitten by it, because you're right, it's a vocation. You know, it's, it's. There are very few sectors where you can really see the difference that you're making in terms of people's lives. And that's generally what I think is a lot of people work in housing for exactly that reason and that's why they're generally nice people, because they're wanting to do the, the right thing. Um, but I think that driver for change, I think there is, there is some, some real resistance and it's long standing. You know, I remember back in 2015, um, I, um, when I was at Holton and, um, there was ourselves and Bromford who were trialing the use of drones to inspect roofs. Rather than putting scaffolding up, just send a drone up, inspect the roof. And also to do, um, heat surveys. Someone during a cold day, you could run a drone over an area and heat map it and you could work out which properties weren't. Property weren't insulated well enough. And I remember that we got absolutely vilified in the housing press to the point where there was, ah, a hashtag running, running on what was then Twitter called drone Gate. Um, because it was like, you know, these people are spying on. And it was like, you're having a laugh on you. There's nothing worse than having scaffolding up around a house for about, you know, it cost 500 quid to put it up, then you put it all. But then all the, all the kids are usually Hanging off it, you know, at night and whatever. Just all the precautions you put in place and if somebody in your repairs team forgets to take it down, so you've then got the 100 quid a week rental cost. That's spiraling as opposed to somebody going to a property for less than five minutes, putting a drone up and doing the same thing. Uh, I just don't get it. It's just, it's just one of those, those things. And I think the other thing which is interesting, the sector can change. So that's quite negative. Let me give a positive. The sector can definitely change. And again I'll go back to lockdown. Prior to lockdown I was traipsing conference boards, the conference stages, um, talking about flexible working and you would, you would just think that I had two heads. Um, and um, people, the way people were taking that message. Come lockdown, suddenly everybody was able to overnight transition to delivering services in a very, very different way. So all the reasons, all the excuses, all the, you know, the, the sort of tales of woe that I heard prior to that point in, in 2020 suddenly unraveled overnight and dissolved away. Um, so I do think there's an ability to do it. Yeah, I just think there needs to be a really clear driver for it.

Speaker A: I agree. And you know that experience in lockdown um, is relevant to every sector. Uh, because even if you went back to December 2019 and told the average organization that within the next four months all of your non essential people will be working from home, they just laugh you out, won't they? And, and, and that's what happened. And, and you know, and we didn't even have that four months, did we? We probably had a month where you knew it was going to go into lockdown and you had to change the way of operating because uh, you know, with, with, with, with services like yourselves, you needed to be able to continue to provide those services to, to the tenants and your customers. But you didn't need to be in an office to do that. But uh, as you say, if you spoke about that two months before you'd just been laughed out as you were. Yeah, and I laughed again, isn't it?

Speaker B: Yeah, but I laughed at you Tony. Because I remember in December 2019 we did a massive piece of work on emergency planning and the scenario was there was civil disorder, uh, in Leeds city centre. Uh, I think it's because somebody had sold Lancashire tea bags somewhere in the shop locally. But there was civil disorder and that the office got broken into and then the office got, had a fire and, and services got disrupted. Uh, that was our biggest risk. You know, it was like. As opposed to really what happened. And it was like, yeah, it was just a world away. And, and I suppose, you know, but I look at how organization responded. I remember the conversations at that time as well. This is a new dawn, this new way. You know, this is the future. This is where we're m going. And it's really interesting to see how some of that has unraveled. And, and I have to say, some of that is, some of that presenteeism is down to a power relationship. If we really, really get back to the psychology of all of this. Yeah, some of that is down to the fact that people like to see people in, in, in a workspace in front of them.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, uh, absolutely. And, and, and, and uh, sometimes as you say, you have to do that.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: It doesn't have to be 100 to go. Brilliant. So we're coming towards the end. Fascinating, uh, conversation going off with different, lots of different tangents. You keep coming back to Yorkshire Tea. I just think it's very ironic that you're using a Lancashire lass with a Lancashire name, Sarah Lancashire at Lancashire, to advertise Yorkshire Tea at the moment. So there you go.

Speaker B: We embrace, we embrace equality, diversity and inclusion here in Yorkshire. So yeah, colleagues are welcoming, but you'll have to still say if I, to counter your argument there, uh, the best Yorkshire Tea advert ever is Sean Bean do it for Yorkshire. Absolutely class.

Speaker A: Brilliant. Need to put a link into a YouTube video for that Won't be or something like that in the show notes. So, uh, before we end, um, if there's one key message that you want to leave behind in terms of your experience of taking multiple organizations on significant change journeys. What, what's, what's the one thing that you think has made the difference in terms of success for you?

Speaker B: Oh, you've got some great questions, Tony. Um, for me, I think it's about being genuinely authentic, honest and transparent. I think most people, if you, if you give them those three ingredients, will accept any message you give them, good or bad, about, about where the program is going and how quickly or otherwise it's being delivered and, and what benefits are going to be realized from it. So I, my, my takeaway is, you know, just be really open and honest with folk. Um, be authentic and be transparent. And um, the vast majority of people will respect that. Uh, and will, will, will buy in and get on board regardless of, of, you know, the direction of travel.

Speaker A: Love that. You know, typical Yorkshire. Ask for one and get three. Uh, ask for one in the tape. Three. It's so true. And. And, um, you know, I. I sort of talk to lots of organizations that are going through change and, um. Because they don't know the answers to lots of questions. Because you're going on a journey. Yeah. There is a reluctance to communicate and it's like, well, don't. Just be transparent. Be authentic and tell people that you don't know because. But by this point, this is what we're doing to find the answers out. Because if you don't, they'll make it up anyway and it's often a lot worse than what it's going to be. So, as you say, totally agree. Be transparent, be authentic and just be honest. Nick, it's been delightful. Great session. Love our, um, banter back and forth. So thank you very much. Um, we probably will never get together and agree between Lancashire and Yorkshire, but that's okay.

Speaker B: We can agree to disagree. Tony. But no, thank you ever so much for having me on. I've absolutely loved it. And, um, I can't believe how the time has flown by, which is always the sign of a great conversation. So thank you for that.

Speaker A: Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of the Transformation Leaders Podcast. If you're leading change, supporting innovation, or just starting your journey into digital transformation, remember, you're not alone. There are a few ways you can take this further. First, if you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe and leave a quick review. It really helps others find the show. Second, connect with us on LinkedIn or visit thetransformationleadershub.com to join the community and access exclusive resources. And finally, if you're serious about developing your skills and accelerating your impact, check out the Transformation Leaders Body of Knowledge. It's a comprehensive, practical framework that helps you navigate every stage of change, whether you're working on strategy, delivery, culture or technology. It's the foundation for everything we teach and share in the Hub, and it's designed to help you lead with confidence. Until next time, keep learning. Keep challenging the status quo and keep transforming.