The Thinking Project · 2024-01-23 · 42 min
Court Lundberg built Lundberg Plumbing into a profitable home service business after transitioning from door-to-door sales into a four-year plumbing apprenticeship. The episode explores why the trades - particularly plumbing - represent one of the most defensible business models available: recurring customer lifetime value through predictable system failures (water damage, HVAC breakdowns), high emergency pricing power, and a severe talent shortage as the average US plumber ages toward 55. Lundberg breaks down the pathway to licensure (four-year apprenticeship plus technical college, then journeyman certification, then master status for business ownership), explains why private equity is now pursuing home service consolidation (exemplified by Gettle's 20x exit multiple), and addresses the operational reality of scaling beyond your own reputation. He's currently rebranding because customers misspell his surname on Google reviews, damaging local SEO and brand recall - a practical lesson in how personal-name companies eventually limit growth. The conversation also touches on the three major trades (plumbing, HVAC, electrical), their relative margin profiles, and the quality-of-life tradeoffs of business ownership versus senior tradesperson employment.
In Utah, plumbing requires a four-year apprenticeship where you work full-time while attending technical college two nights per week for 2-3 hours, followed by a written test and practical exam to earn journeyman status, then two additional years in a leadership position to achieve master plumber certification.
The average plumber is 55 years old, and many plumbing employers discourage workers from pursuing journeyman and master certifications by offering comparable wages without credentials, which locks employees to a single company and discourages career advancement.
Plumbing and HVAC generate recurring revenue because water and air systems degrade over time, while electrical installations last 50+ years and rarely require service, making plumbing and HVAC substantially more profitable for home service operators.
Home service businesses proved recession-resistant during COVID, and companies like Gettle achieved 20x multiples because they build predictable recurring revenue through customer data - knowing when systems (like water heaters) will fail across thousands of homes.
Customers consistently misspell his surname in Google reviews, damaging local SEO performance and brand recall; a simpler name will scale better as the company grows beyond his personal reputation.
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
Court is an amazing entrepreneur who plumbing company is one of the best. In this episode he breaks down all his secrets!
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: That's why getting out of the door to door sales helped me out. Now I. I'm really focused on my mental health and, like, making sure that my stress stays at bay, which isn't always easy as a business owner.
Speaker B: Sales is stressful. Business is stressful. Yeah, I've been thinking about that too. I'm like, we got to get out of this damn stressful feedback loot, dude. I'm like, I'm about to go use my accounting degree and just sit down and crunch numbers on sale all day and shit, dude.
Speaker A: But then when you're over there, once, like, the stress levels gone down, you're itching to get back into it.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: You know what I mean? Like, it's just an addictive cycle,
Speaker B: So we're just having fun. What's up, Court?
Speaker A: How's it going, dude?
Speaker B: Good. Uh, core. Lundberg. Lundberg Plumbing. Yep. And. And we met each other through dirty dough.
Speaker A: We did meet each other through dirty
Speaker B: dough, but you had your plumbing company before that. You. Are you a plumber by trade?
Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm a master plumber. I'm a master plumber and a general contractor, and I have my H VAC license. But you shouldn't ask me to do anything on that. I shouldn't do any H Vac at all. It's. It's just a license I have. Um, cool, because you have to have a.
Speaker B: Do you have an H Vac guy? I think you were. You were posting about this.
Speaker A: No. So we'll get into it.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: But we really want to dial in the plumbing first. First? Yeah.
Speaker B: He's big.
Speaker A: There's big money in H vac.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Um, but if you get the wrong guy. I just don't want to tie our name to something that I can't have my finger on the pulse of.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Yet. So I know enough to be dangerous. Like, I'll fix my own.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: But I wouldn't ever charge somebody to work on theirs. I just feel like it would be a huge disservice.
Speaker B: You're like, there's. Well, just. There's better people or what?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: I mean, I don't know.
Speaker A: It's like plumbing, right? Like, can you put in pipes? Absolutely. It's like big kids, Legos. It's not a big deal, but if you forget to put an event, you just screwed up this whole project. Like, the whole everything that you did, you have to rip out.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And I know that there's stuff with H Vac that if you just didn't know it, you messed it up. You're toast.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: I feel like that's in my house, dude. My house was a fix. And flip that they never fixed. Yeah, they just flipped.
Speaker A: That's a huge problem. Especially, like a couple of years ago, dude, it was a big problem. We were going into people's homes and it's like, oh, this isn't draining. And we camera the drain line. It's like, well, it's not hooked onto your sewer. It doesn't go anywhere. It just ends here.
Speaker B: But, uh, good, Gandhi.
Speaker A: So let's jackhammer this up. Sorry about that. And they're all mad at you because you found it. Well, they're not mad at you, but. But they're directed towards you.
Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah, like, uh, you call nine other companies, they're all going to tell you the same thing.
Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah, we, uh, started in 2019, and then we're going through a rebrand. Actually, right now I just want to get my last name off of the company. So if you look at our Google reviews, our own customers, even though they're on our thing, they just used us. They'll spell my name wrong, like, all the time. I'm just like, this is a joke. I got to get my name off of here.
Speaker B: Well, probably. I mean, if they spell your name wrong on the Google review, that probably affects a little bit of the local SEO.
Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and. And you hear Lundberg Plumbing, and you're just like, even if you have the best of intentions of using us, when you need a plumber, that name's not going to come to mind. Like, it's a hard name to remember is what I think.
Speaker B: But that's fair.
Speaker A: At the time. I didn't care when I first started it.
Speaker B: Just, let's just get out there and get it going.
Speaker A: Yeah, I was making a living.
Speaker B: No, that's great, though. Yeah, I think that's how you're supposed to start. Right?
Speaker A: Yeah, it's like.
Speaker B: Absolutely is like, um, just go.
Speaker A: We're on the edition. If this works.
Speaker B: Yeah, don't worry about the name. Yeah, dude, I think, uh, I heard on a podcast, um, dude, the trades are big, and I think they're just going to keep getting bigger. Is there like a shortage of plumbers?
Speaker A: No, there's a huge. Well, a shortage. Yeah, there's a huge shortage of plumbers right now.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Um, the average plumber's age is like 55 right now in the United States, which means that here in the next 10 years, there's going to be an absolute shortage of plumbers. So. And because of that the wages are going up. Private equity is getting involved because they saw that during COVID the trades didn't go down like.
Speaker B: Well, they can't go down.
Speaker A: No. And we actually did really, really well. It's now that the trades are kind of going down, everything's gone down. Yeah. So.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: But because they did so well, there were some crazy exits. There's a company called Gettle that exited for like a uh, 20x multiple.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: Which in a home service industry is insane. Yeah. It's unheard of.
Speaker B: Well, that and 20x in any industry is insane.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: Except for maybe tech.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: But now we're feeling like what it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: So. But it's because the data is getting there. Right. Like if I replace your water heater, I have all of your data so that in 10 years I know to market to you again because I know that your water heater is going to go out. And that's what that company had been doing for two decades with thousands and thousands of customers.
Speaker B: Yeah, I can see that. PEs and VCs might have been late to the game because like what's the lifetime value of a plumbing customer? You're like, I mean it's a lot, but like they're not going to need any of your services. And for another.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: Um.
Speaker A: Well, especially if like you go into a home m and do the works. Like we do a complete re pipe. I mean we have a 10 year warranty on it. We in theory shouldn't be seeing you for anything.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: For like 10 years.
Speaker B: Well, I was gonna say. Well, I was gonna say like, uh, if you have to see your customer every year, they're probably not your customer.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Anymore.
Speaker A: Yeah. Nobody wants to see their plumber very often. Like if you're having floods. Awesome. But. Well, not awesome.
Speaker B: Not awesome.
Speaker A: Condolences. But it's a good reason for us to be over there. But if you keep having the same problem over and over.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Going to be problematic. You're going to find somebody else.
Speaker B: What did you do before you started your business?
Speaker A: Um, so directly before this, I was doing my apprenticeship obviously up in Logan. So with plumbing, it's a four year apprenticeship. Um, and then you journey out and then you can get your master's after that and then you can start your own company. So I did my apprenticeship up in Logan. Yeah. So that's the other barrier to entry is people are like, oh, I don't, I don't know if I want to do this for four years. They View it as college, but it's so much different because you're working and,
Speaker B: um, making money the whole time.
Speaker A: Yeah. And you're making great money the whole time.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So did that. And then before that I was in the door to door industry for four years. Then I got married and decided I hated that. So I liked it when I was single.
Speaker B: Yeah. Door to door win rate. I was just talking about this, man. Door to door is hard when you're married.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: With kids. Dude.
Speaker A: Yeah. It's different to come home, Come home to your boys after you had like a hard day, that's one thing. But come home to your wife and you're like, oh, I didn't sell anything.
Speaker B: And she's like, what the.
Speaker A: Yeah, she's been sitting in a hotel all day or an apartment condo or whatnot. So, yeah, I got out of that shortly after being married. And, uh, we did it one year married. And I was like, I can't do this. Started, um, going to school and then realized that I was studying engineering and I was talking to a plumber and I was like, oh, this guy's making more money than my buddies that are graduating as engineers. And it seems more like the type of engineering I like. It's the hands on stuff, not the planning it on a computer and drawing it up. It's doing it. Yeah. So got a part time job doing that and then shortly after dropped out of school to just plumb full time. And I've loved it ever since.
Speaker B: That's cool.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Yeah, that's cool, man. I remember I got into sales and I remember my grandpa, he's a general contractor in the trades and stuff. And he was like, what are you doing? He's like, you just need to go get your H vac plumbing, electrician thing.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And that's all you need to do. And I was like, I don't want to do that.
Speaker A: Well, that's what my.
Speaker B: Sometimes I regret it. Sometimes I'm like, oh, that's what my
Speaker A: dad told me for years. But I always. My bishop growing up was m a plumber. And I just thought like, oh, this guy doesn't make any money because that's the way he lived in reality. Guy makes a ton of money. He just frugal lives. Frugal. And so I didn't quite understand that.
Speaker B: I was like, well, and something they don't tell you about and just because you brought this up, but something they don't tell you about the leadership in the church. I'm LDS too, but something they don't tell you about is that like you like they don't call people who don't have any money to those positions.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Like you cannot, you have to be very successful.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: You have to, you have to make some money to be like a bishop, a sick president, a mission president. Like.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Like a 70. Like until you get up high enough where they like. Like an apostle. Right. Like you get like stipends or whatever. Um, but even though you got to support. Yeah, but even those calling like your apostles don't. I mean they get like stipends and cut things covered, but they're still making money from their investments.
Speaker A: Right. Yeah.
Speaker B: Um, which I don't think there's anything wrong with, but it's just funny that we all grew up thinking like, oh, anybody can be the bishop. And it's like, well, you gotta have your stuff together. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you do. You have to have it all together like temporally and spiritually. But yeah, that's funny though.
Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So my dad was pushing me towards it for a long time and then shortly after starting a part time job, I was like, oh, this is it. I like the. Had the social aspect of door to door because you're talking with a customer every day and it's not the new construction stuff. I don't think I would do well in a new construction world of plumbing. But in the service side where I'm going in and solving your problems and it's a different problem every day and I get to interact with different people. Um, that's where I shined.
Speaker B: Yeah. What I love so well, dude, I mean that's great. And I think too, to, to your point, there is, um, it's just a. I mean people are always going to need that. Like as long as you have a house. Yeah.
Speaker A: Ah.
Speaker B: Like. And if it's not the, if it's not the homeowner, it's the landlord. You know what I mean? Like they're going to like, like now. Right. If you're, even if you're renting, you need a plumber.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: And it's better if you're renting is you don't have to pay the plumber.
Speaker A: Um, yeah. And plumbing is the most out of the three big trades which are plumbing, H Vac and electrical. Those are the three big ones. Your electrical almost never goes out. So unless if it's a good economy and you want to remodel the service, electricians, they have a rough time. Plumbing always is going to go out because water just wears stuff out. And Then H Vac, it doesn't always go out, but when it goes out, it's the highest priority.
Speaker B: It's not.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: Hey, like, your furnace goes out in wintertime. You're like, yeah, I will pay you whatever. My dad.
Speaker A: Doesn't matter. Yeah.
Speaker B: My dad was hbc and I remember one Christmas, he was on call and just to pick up the phone, like, just for him to go out was like $200.
Speaker A: Yep.
Speaker B: Like, uh, he was gonna stay there for 30 minutes and, like, not fix anything.
Speaker A: Well, you got to drive there. Yeah, you got to drive there.
Speaker B: Yes. But I just remember, like, when you think about that, like, you know, somebody hearing this is like 200 bucks. That's crazy. But 200 bucks for like 30 minutes just to answer the phone.
Speaker A: Yep.
Speaker B: Is like.
Speaker A: And show up.
Speaker B: And then. And then you're like, but it's your furnace at Christmas and it's a blizzard outside.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You have to get it fixed.
Speaker A: Well, it's also, you know, I've already worked from 8 to 5.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And now your problems start at 7 o'.
Speaker B: Clock.
Speaker A: Like, my family times started.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So I'm. I'm more than happy to get there. That's the name of the game. Like, that is my job. But you do pay a little bit more for us to get over there. It's just a convenience.
Speaker B: Why not, though? I mean, like, that's. But that's why you do it. Like, if you could fix your own H vac or plumbing. Right? Yeah, well, plumbing, H VAC and plumbing are the ones that if they go out, you're like, dude.
Speaker A: Yeah. So, like the biggest.
Speaker B: A busted lighter, busted outlet for a
Speaker A: little bit, like the biggest player here. That will do 105 million this year in the home service space here in Utah. They're like 55 million H vac, 45 million plumbing, and it's like 10 million electrical. Like, even the biggest electrical company around here is nothing compared to the plumbing. The plumbing in H Vac. Yeah.
Speaker B: That's great. That's good. That's interesting. Electrical is, though. Uh, but. But the one time I had to spend money in this new house was electrical. We had to get a whole new freaking panel. Panel.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And then they had like a. Then they had like a special panel, like a surge protector panel.
Speaker A: Right. And.
Speaker B: Which is stupid because my freaking thing
Speaker A: trips all the time when you spend for electrical. Right. Like you're going to spend for it just like any of the trades.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: But when do you have to replace that panel again?
Speaker B: Never. Yeah, I'll Never have to replace it.
Speaker A: It was probably put in and I don't know when your home was built, but 50 years ago. And it'll be another 50 years until something needs to be replaced again.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So yeah, it just, it's not breaking all the time. Like plumbing is.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Or H Vac is.
Speaker B: Which is, which is interesting because you, you think like water does a lot of damage when it moves.
Speaker A: Yep.
Speaker B: And uh, air does a lot of damage when it moves.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And so does electricity, but not like. But we have more safety things around that. Right?
Speaker A: Yeah. That energy is engineered a little bit better.
Speaker B: Yeah. That. Well, that energy is like man, you know?
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B: It's crazy, dude. So what made you want to start your own business? Like what? Uh, I mean obviously you got your, you did all the things to do that. Mhm. But does everybody become a master plumber and then not choose to start their own business or. Some people.
Speaker A: Honestly, it's pretty rare for people to even get their journeyman's in, especially in the state of Utah. And I don't know why, so. Well, I do know why. It's because the guys don't want to go to school. But it's also because the employers almost incentivize you not to go to school because they say to you, you don't need to be a journeyman, just work for me. Like I'll pay you like a journeyman, you'll be fine. What that does is it just kind of pigeonholes you to that one company.
Speaker B: Yeah. Cause now. Yeah.
Speaker A: Cause now you don't have options, now you don't move on. But I mean, it's not all fun and games on your own company.
Speaker B: So walk me through becoming a plumber. Yeah. Like my dad, when he did@h vac, he actually went to a trade school first. A year and a half or something. Two years.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: So then he went to be an apprentice. And then.
Speaker A: So with this you start your apprenticeship, you register with the state and then you get signed up in some sort of a technical college. So I went to um, Bridgerland up in Logan and then mt.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Mtech. M. Yeah. M Tech over here.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: But it's just two nights a week. It's just two nights a week for like two, three hours a night. So you just go when you're. And they don't teach you anything. It's like the biggest waste of time just punching a clock ever. The only thing that matters is for four years they're training you to pass one test. And that whole test is can you read the code book and understand it? The thing is, is the teachers, like they're just not incentivized, they're not paid, they don't do a good job. So it feels like a giant waste of time and a lot of people don't make it through. So you're going to do that for four years while working and then you take.
Speaker B: How much does it cost?
Speaker A: The schooling? Yeah, um, most companies are going to. I pay for all my guys schooling and I think that it cost me like $500 a semester. So it's nothing.
Speaker B: Wow.
Speaker A: And all of your books are the same all four years. So you buy your books once and you're just done. So it's most cost effective school you could ever go to. And then afterwards you just take. There's one final written test which you have three tries to pass it. And then there's a practical test where you just can show them that you can do the plumbing. And then you have your journeyman, so that's the journeyman of the plumbing side. And then to get your master's, it's just two more years that you can prove that you're in a leadership position or have your associate's degree and have one year, um, in a leadership position. And then you apply and there's another test for that. But it's basically the same test that you took with a little bit of business law. So, um. But it's not all fun and games. Like going back, knowing what I know now, I don't know if I would start another plumbing company. And that sounds weird, but it's just like the quality of my life. I would still work in plumbing, but I could still make six figures and have a better quality of life working for somebody else in this industry than all of the stress. Like when you own the company, like every complaint comes to you. Yeah. Um, I don't regret it. I love it. But if I didn't love the business aspect of it, like if I just loved plumbing and I didn't love the business side of it and learning about marketing and networking with people, I probably wouldn't have done it, if that makes sense. And so much of business isn't drawn towards the trades. So it takes a unique personality that likes both of those things.
Speaker B: Yeah. That's interesting. Well, I mean, where I grew up, I grew up in Iowa.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Like it was only trades in my hometown. Like welders, H vac, um, pipe fitters, linemen, like that's just what you guys like. I mean, you could graduate in my high school with like a welding certificate.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Or a plumbing.
Speaker A: And you make great money.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: You make great money.
Speaker B: Yeah. But I mean. And that crap is hard. Pipefitters. Those guys were pipe fitters.
Speaker A: Make a ton of money. So that's the other route that you can go is if you go through the union. You go to five years of school, but they'll teach you pipe fitting as well. Their school is awesome. Like, their school will teach you stuff. Our school. You're really learning it all on the job.
Speaker B: Is there a plumber's union?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: Yep. There's plumber unions here in. In Utah.
Speaker B: It's just like every, like one or. Okay.
Speaker A: I don't know.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: Because I'm not part of it.
Speaker B: I don't know much about unions.
Speaker A: I do know that there is a union here in solely.
Speaker B: I know that unions are. I mean, unions are big in the Midwest.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Uh, and if you're in certain trade. Like the linemen union.
Speaker A: Yep.
Speaker B: But like, dang, that's great. Those guys are just unbeatable.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: I mean, unions. I mean, that's what they originally were for. I don't know if they're necessarily. I don't know. Maybe you do there. Maybe there's a purpose for me. I don't know.
Speaker A: There's still a purpose. But the problem is, is like, you're just cycling through those plumbers. So if there's a big job. I know a guy that worked for the union and he'd get hired on for a job, and as soon as that job was over, they lay him off and they had to cycle through all these other plumbers before he could get hired again. So he's just constantly employed. Unemployed.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Ah, it's like, that kind of sucks.
Speaker B: Do you keep benefits with the union when they lay you off?
Speaker A: I have no idea, dude.
Speaker B: Yeah, I know. Well, the only reason I would ever. I mean, the only reason I heard good things about the union were the benefits.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: It was like, that's why you joined the union. Like, uh, you know, it was really hard to get fired. Like, it's. Relatively speaking.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Like, no, I guess it did a bad job. They would fire, uh, you. But it's pretty hard to get fired. Like, your. Your benefits are incredible.
Speaker A: Yep.
Speaker B: Like, the pay is good.
Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, but anymore, I mean, so we pay full health insurance for our guys. Just feel like it's. It's important and especially in the trades. Like, your health is everything if you're not healthy. I want my guys to go to the doctor. I want them to make sure that
Speaker B: their backs do it and not be afraid to go to the doctor.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Like, because they can't afford it or whatever.
Speaker A: Yeah. Um, so I had a thing. One of the other reasons why I got out of the summer cells thing is I got diagnosed with a disease called CRPS in my hand, which basically I broke my hand. They took the pins out and. And then the next day. So everything was good, everything was healed. We had the. Okay. And the next day it felt like there was a blowtorch on my hand. And it's a disease.
Speaker B: Oh, dude. Crps. Is that the big thing that's going on right now? It's like from the Netflix thing.
Speaker A: Yeah. So there's a thing.
Speaker B: The suicide, the Maya. Saving, uh, Maya or whatever that movie is on Netflix.
Speaker A: Oh, that's different. I have seen that one, though. Or I've heard of it.
Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, hold on. Uh, let me look. Let me look this up. But go ahead, Go ahead. I'm gonna look at this.
Speaker A: So with this, your nerves are just going haywire. So your nerves are registering in your brain that there is something like extreme pain going on, but there's nothing wrong with you. Um, and a lot of it comes from, like, stress and stuff. So we did a bunch of research on it, and it's like, I can't live like this. Um, I gotta get out of all of this stress from the door to door cells. You know, we. Yeah, uh, we managed a team. I managed a team.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Take care of Maya. She had CR. The daughter had CRPs.
Speaker A: Is it that.
Speaker B: Yeah, the daughter had CR, but she had CRPs, like, all over her whole body.
Speaker A: Dude, it's intense.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: I met people in it when I had it. I met a gal that. She sprained her ankle when she was 12. She was 24. Never walked on that ankle again. Like, never. Because of crps.
Speaker B: Well, that was the thing in the. In the documentary. Ah. That was on Netflix. Was like the only. The only kind of cure for it was this ketamine treatment.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And then that's the whole thing that happened. But yeah, otherwise there's not really, like, a thing for. Right.
Speaker A: Or. Well, it can dissipate. I was lucky because it's. It's not well known about. Yeah. Like, right. People will think that you're trying to get prescription drugs because, like, the whole time I've broken like 12 bones, never taken a painkiller. Don't care about it. With this, I needed painkillers, like, immediately. You just want you Honestly, just clam up. Like, the whole world sucks. You don't want to deal with it. Um, so people think that you're just trying to get pain pills because they run all these tests, like, and there's nothing wrong, or they think that you have an infection. We fortunately got diagnosed, like, immediately with it, and I was able to fly out to a specialist and get a bunch of cortisol shots in my spine. Oh, yeah, that. That helped out dramatically. So luckily, we caught it early enough. Um, but how many people don't catch it or they didn't know about it?
Speaker B: Well, that's what happened in this case forever, from what I understand is, like, they would run tests, and they're like, nothing's wrong with you. Like, you're lying. And then they charged the mom with, uh. Oh, they charged the mom.
Speaker A: She killed herself.
Speaker B: Yeah, they charged the mom with.
Speaker A: I didn't know that was a documentary, but I've heard about that case.
Speaker B: And what did they do? Munchausen, uh, syndrome by proxy. Yeah, that's what they diagnosed the daughter with. And then they charged the mom with all of the. They took her kid away, and then that's now the whole thing. And they just settled with Johns Hopkins, I think they said just over $220 million.
Speaker A: So from.
Speaker B: From the.
Speaker A: They charged the mom with being basically abusive.
Speaker B: Yeah. Yep.
Speaker A: Took her kid, and then her mom killed herself.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So that they could get custody back of the kid.
Speaker B: Well, yeah.
Speaker A: Crazy.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And, dude, out of an active love for your child. Dude.
Speaker B: Well, and that brings up a whole other problem, which is, like, these hospitals have so much power and no oversight, because at the end of that documentary, they go through, like, 20 people, or, I don't know, it. Maybe not 20, but they go through quite a few people who had alleged the same things that the family did, which was like, CPS came and took my kid because, you know, he had, like. He got hit by a baseball, and they said that was abuse, and they took my kid.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And we had to jump through all these hoops, and we can't afford an attorney, and they're just, like, holding people hostage, like.
Speaker A: Yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker B: It was wild. But, yeah, it was crps. And she had it throughout, like, her whole body.
Speaker A: Yeah. You can get it anywhere and over anything. Like, I broke my hand, and everything was good. It was when they took the pins out, then my body just registered it. So now I'm much more careful. Cause, like, my biggest fear is that it comes back, because it truly is
Speaker B: debilitating, even just in your hand.
Speaker A: I couldn't pick up my phone. I couldn't tie my shoes. I couldn't open a doorknob. Like, literally, this hand was as good as useless. It was worse than useless because if it touched anything, I would just, like, start bawling.
Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, that's what they said. Like they felt like their skin was on fire.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Like every time something happened, it's constantly like.
Speaker A: The best analogy is there's a blowtorch just on your hand and you can't do anything about it. That's crazy. There's no pain relief. There's no.
Speaker B: Yeah. Ah, well. And that's what happened with this. Because she went into the doctor and she was like, no, she got diagnosed with crps. Uh, she needs ketamine. And they were like, what? And then they were like. And then they're how much ketamine? She's like, this is how much ketamine. And they're like, that. That's more than they give a horse.
Speaker A: Yeah. They're like, no, Kevin's going to, like, numb you.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: To that kind of stuff. To, like your sensations and stuff.
Speaker B: Yeah. But I mean, I don't know all the details, so, like, don't sue me or whatever.
Speaker A: Yeah. It's legal. Ketamine's illegal.
Speaker B: No. Yeah. I mean, and they use it for, um, mental health now.
Speaker A: Yeah, they're.
Speaker B: They're exploring it for mental health and
Speaker A: they're also like, there's a lot of therapy for mental health.
Speaker B: Yeah. Ketamine treatments.
Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and that's the thing is there's a lot of studies that say that CRPS is tied with stress. So that was another reason to get out of. Um, the problem is, is that having it is stressful. So it's like you got to figure out how to feedback.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: So that's why getting out of the door to door cells helped me out. Now I. I'm really focused on my mental health and, like, making sure that my stress stays at bay, which isn't always easy as a business owner.
Speaker B: Well, dude, I was like, the you sales is stressful. Business is stressful. Yeah, I've been thinking about that too. I'm like, we got to get out of this damn stressful feedback loop that I'm like, I'm about to go use my accounting degree and just sit down and crunch numbers on all day and shit. Dude.
Speaker A: But then when you're over there, once, like, the stress levels gone down.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: You're itching to get back into it.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: You know What? I mean, like, it's just an addictive cycle.
Speaker B: Well, it's, it's. I mean, there's something about being a business owner that really taps into the human purpose, which is like we're creators. Like we, we have to like use our talents and make something. Because if we don't, like, no one has to tell you if you're, if you're not progressing in your life. Like, no one has to tell you to feel like shit. You're just gonna feel like shit. Yeah, like anything. I mean, like, that's why video games are addicting, because you can level up.
Speaker A: Yeah. Like you're making progress.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: It doesn't matter that it's pointless.
Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Now I was gonna put a caveat on that. Like, this is not the same thing, but like, that's also why video games are a little bit addictive. Because you get this dopamine rush kind of rush of like creating something and like progressing and moving forward and like problem solving and learning and these. And that's why like some of the worst addictions that are hard to break are those like, not non substance ones. Yeah, like video games or gambling or you know, pornography. Pornography, Stuff like that. It's just like this humongous hit that your body's not supposed to take and then you just keep going.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: Crazy stuff, dude. Yeah, yeah, but that's. Yeah, but being a business owner is pretty wild, man.
Speaker A: Yeah. And that's. Me and my wife talk about that. It's like, but now we have employees that love working for us and that we made their life. I feel like we've, we've amplified their life so much. Like, can't back down from it now. Like.
Speaker B: Yeah, now you're in.
Speaker A: Their whole families are relying on us
Speaker B: and for penny, in for a penny.
Speaker A: It would be nice to be employed by myself and not own the company anymore, if that makes sense. Like.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give it over to someone else and then just become an employee. Like switch.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, just.
Speaker B: I've heard that though, they hire a CEO and then they'll just like, they'll retain ownership, hire a CEO, but then
Speaker A: they'll still know a plumbing owner that did that. Yeah, he has a CEO that runs his company. He just goes out and runs jobs every day. Like he's a normal dude and he,
Speaker B: but he does, he said like, I mean, there's not a board for a plumbing company, but it's kind of like that. Like. Yeah, there's decision making processes that he has to be involved in.
Speaker A: Maybe M. I don't think that he's even involved in them. Um, I think that he just trusts the CEO to do. To be the operator and to do it. And, like, if there was ever any decisions that came down that he didn't, like, he'd probably veto it. Like, he probably has some rights. Yeah. He has to say. Yeah, But I mean, there's a lot of things that he's not going to know about that the technicians don't know about. Like how much we're spending on the marketing. Where are we marketing at? M. Um, what deals are we running? Like, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker B: But see, I wonder if you could. Because when I was in the, uh. I did a sales training for a plumbing company one time. Okay. And I actually trained the plumbers because I'm like, dude, they're in your house. Those are the guys selling the jobs.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: I'm like, why wouldn't you ask them? Like, how did you hear about us? Like, well, we heard about you from TikTok. No shit. You know what I mean? Or we heard you from this. Maybe if you get enough of those and you track the data. Right.
Speaker A: Well, so the CRMs are so advanced now that we know when you call me. I know depending on what number you called. Did you come from TikTok? Did you come from Facebook? Did you come from SEO? Did you come from PBC? She come from Yelp? She come from a card that I handed out. Like, we have a different tracking number for all of that.
Speaker B: That's a good.
Speaker A: And sometimes it gets conflated because you might see me on TikTok and then look me up on Google.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: And then call. But.
Speaker B: But that's marketing, though. Yeah, that's why you have to do that.
Speaker A: Yeah, but a lot of that's trackable. Yeah, now.
Speaker B: Yeah, that's fair. But. But yeah, that's. That's, uh. That is. It's interesting. There's a lot of. I mean, but when you're a business owner, there's a lot of things that you can do. Like get creative like that, right? Like, like, shit, I got all the sops down. I could just hire somebody to do this. And that's. That's also. But, like, if you're not doing that, um, your business might be in trouble. Like if you're not documenting processes and
Speaker A: procedures anyway, which is hard for a technician to do, which is where I'm at.
Speaker B: But no, I mean, like, if you want to get acquired, the thing that they look at first before they look at Ebitda or anything they look at.
Speaker A: Like, do you have a process?
Speaker B: Could a blind man come in and run this?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And if the answer is yes, then we can start talking.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: Those big exit. Yeah. I mean, like, it sucks. Uh, I mean, but that is the hardest part. I interviewed Chris Ronzio. He's the CEO of Trainual.
Speaker A: Okay. I've heard of Trainual.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, they're fantastic.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Um, but they automate SOPs.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And, uh, and that's what he was saying because he came from like a VC background and he was like, dude, before we, I didn't give a shit about your number.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: I didn't care if it was 50 million. Like, if you didn't have a documented process for everything that you did in your business with this.
Speaker A: Yeah. Because of one piece.
Speaker B: Well, because the VC. The VC's not running that shit. They're not plumbers. They're gonna literally do what you did, which is buy it, hire it out and be done and never look at it again.
Speaker A: Yeah. Make sure the money comes in.
Speaker B: That's it, dude. That's it.
Speaker A: So, so.
Speaker B: And then that's what you look at when you look for other businesses. You know, like every once in a while I'll get like a little frisky and I'll be like, oh, let's go look at this business. And I'll be like, can I see your, can I see your employee manual or your operations manual? Yeah, we don't have one. Okay.
Speaker A: It's problematic.
Speaker B: See ya. Bye.
Speaker A: Yeah, we're trying to work on one right now, but it's. Again, it's tough for a technician to do all the time. Yeah, I, I know the plumbing now. I gotta, now I'm learning the business side.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: This is my first year of like stepping out of the van. Honestly, I've only been out of the van for like six months. Yeah, before that I was running full bore.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Plumbing. Yeah, just full time plumbing. So.
Speaker B: Yeah. That's crazy.
Speaker A: It's been a bit of a shift.
Speaker B: No, but that's cool, man. But it's fulfilling for you.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And I was just interviewing somebody the other day too, who was like, there is something, uh, special about knowing that you're helping someone's family and you're helping someone.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: You know, get Christmas or whatever.
Speaker A: No, people are grateful for you. Like, you show up and get them hot water. People are pumped about it. Like, they love it. You go over and solve their flooding issue that they had no idea what's going on.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Like, it is rewarding in that way.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And then you get the people that you can never please.
Speaker B: Well, those people exist as well.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: I mean, and some people just want to have a bad day. Like, I think that's the hardest part about being in customer service or sales or anything like that. Yeah, Some people just want to be pissed.
Speaker A: Well. And some people. I don't know. We had a gal just the other day that she's used us a lot, and she was a good customer and everything. But then we gave her a price on fixing this thing. It was like, 250 bucks to fix this faucet. And she's like, oh, that's outrageous. It should be like, 50 bucks. It's like, why do you think that? So she got a price from another, bigger company, and they came in at, uh, like, 500. And then she comes crawling back to us, and it's like, we. We have other customers. Like, we have better. Yeah, we went and do it. We go and do it for her. But there are those people that. They're just like, I only get paid $30 at my job. It should only cost $30. It's like, well, no, we have insurance, and we have to market.
Speaker B: Yeah, that's our bottom. That's. That's the minimum that we have to charge.
Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B: Well, and again, like, that's just. That's also. Oh, man, those guys. Oh, my God. Gosh. Yeah. The people who are like, the part's 40 bucks at Amazon. They'll go buy the part and do. Yeah, go buy the part, man.
Speaker A: That's all right.
Speaker B: Yeah, dude. It's still 250 bucks. It's still 200.
Speaker A: You buy the part.
Speaker B: I remember I was at a car dealership. I was selling cars. And, uh, I was actually on the finance side, and I was talking to this guy, um, and he was. And he didn't want any warranties or anything like that. And I was like, all right. But he wanted this, uh, so in a pilot, to get. So a pilot can tow four, uh, thousand five hundred pounds if there's a transmission cooler, can tow five thousand pounds. Okay. But you have to have the transmission cooler. Um, and that has to be installed by Honda. Like, you're messing with a transmission, Right? And this guy called. Uh, he sat right in front of me, and I couldn't. I thought he was joking at first. He was like. I was like, yep, this is how much transmission cooler costs. That includes parts and labor.
Speaker A: Yeah, labor.
Speaker B: And he goes, well, what is it? If I just want the cooler, what is it? And I'm like, it doesn't exist. He's like, yeah, I can put it in myself. And I was like, what? I was like. And then I kind of got cheeky with him after I realized he wasn't joking. I was like, so you have a. You have the proprietary Honda software, and you have a lift in your garage that can take a transmission out of the car and you know how to put it in?
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: He was like, uh, what? And I was like, are you kidding me? Yeah, it's not a button, dude. Like, and.
Speaker A: And that's how people think plumbing is.
Speaker B: Is.
Speaker A: They're like, oh, I've worked on this kind of stuff before. It's like, yeah, you have. But when it floods, like, uh, it's problematic. Let's just do it right the first time.
Speaker B: Yeah, it blows my mind. But that is also why sales comes into play so heavy, is because, like, yeah, Uh, I mean, I got that deal. I wasn't like, the story I'm telling you is, like, a Fisher story. Right? Like, I'm like, this guy was an idiot. But in the moment, I was like, well, you know, I don't think you want to do that because it'll void your warranty. Uh, there's proprietary Honda software that we have to use, and if my tech does it and he messes up, we'll cover it for free. If you do it yourself and you mess up, your whole entire warranty is void. And, like, not just your engine warranty. Every warranty on the car is void.
Speaker A: Yeah. They're not gonna look at it.
Speaker B: I was like, uh. But I just had, like, after that, it was just a running joke. I was like, I could not believe this guy thought he could put in a transmission cooler in his brand new, like, 2020 Honda Pilot. I was like, this is unbelievable. To save, like, 200 bucks, 300 bucks, something like that? Like, no way, dude. No way.
Speaker A: Even if it was a thousand dollars, like, who cares?
Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I was like, actually, let the professionals do it. I was like, the transmission cooler's a dollar.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And the labor is 399. Right. Like, the labor's four grand. That's how it breaks down.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Like, yeah.
Speaker A: That's the other thing is we get customers that are always like, oh, can I get a breakdown of, like, all the parts and stuff? It's like, sure, yeah.
Speaker B: Doesn't change the price, I guess, if you want to do all that math, you know.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Make yourself feel bad that my guys get paid, that we charge 50 bucks or one, uh, hundred bucks. An hour. Yeah.
Speaker A: Well, and the thing is, is it's not the hourly. Like, if. So we just did a job this last week that I had to let a guy go for. Um, we did a sewer line. It was like a $25,000 job. Big job.
Speaker B: Jesus.
Speaker A: My guy goes in to verify that we had done the work right, and he signs off that it's good. Two weeks later, they have a sewer back up. So. And he recalls, I'm always going to go over to it and I scope the line and it's not good. Like, the guy who sold it and did the work and did everything, skipped a huge amount of work that we promised him and we didn't do. So now we have to go through
Speaker B: and basically redo the whole job.
Speaker A: Yeah. Redo the whole thing. Well, when I'm looking at his bid, there wasn't enough money in it to do all of the job, right?
Speaker B: M. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A: So who does that fall on? Well, it falls on me, like, every time. So it's not the $100 an hour. It's the. If we mess up, if something goes wrong.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: Well, we're doing it for $12 an hour.
Speaker B: And I heard the best, uh, definition for this, which is like, how wealth is created in the world. And like, you don't get paid for, um. You don't get paid for your time or what? You know, you get paid for your val. For the value that you bring to society.
Speaker A: Yeah. For solving problems.
Speaker B: Yeah. For like. Like, okay, yeah, dude, I could charge you $1,000 a month. The fact is, is, like, you can't do this and you don't want to do it.
Speaker A: Yeah. You have better things to do.
Speaker B: Yeah. Like, it's not worth it for you. Um, and I heard that quote in reference to, like, uh, they were talking about Elon Musk, and the guy was like, he's like, you think that anybody could go run. Be the CEO of SpaceX, Tesla and whatever other Neuralink company he's got? Do you think anybody can do that? And I was like, oh, shit, yeah. That's a good point, dude. Yeah. Like, so you're not paid for your time or what? You know, you're paid for, like, your. The value you bring to society or, like, to. Yeah, so, like, I remember that too.
Speaker A: We.
Speaker B: We'd have those conversations with people and I was like, I was like. And that's when I get like. I don't know. Most of the time I was very cordial, but sometimes I just get pissed and be a smart ass. I was like, yeah, it's a dollar.
Speaker A: Yeah, it's a dollar for the parts.
Speaker B: Yeah, it's a dollar for the parts. $1,000 for my time.
Speaker A: Well, have you ever heard the story about the guy that he fixed? I don't even remember what it was. Basically, there's a. There's this old machine. Um, nobody can get it working. All these mechanics have looked at it. Nobody can get it working. So they call in this old guy, and he comes over, takes a look at the machine, looks over a second time, takes out his hammer, hits it in a spot, and the thing starts right up.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: And they're like, oh, thank you so much. And then he sends him a bill for, like, a thousand bucks. And they're like, what are you talking about? This is all you did? He's like, no, it was a dollar to hit it with a hammer. It was $999 to know where to hit it. Like, that's, uh, what we're getting paid for.
Speaker B: Yeah, dude, for sure, man. And I freaking. Yeah, and that's what it is. And that's what. And it's a lot more tangible when we're talking about trades. Like. Yeah. And it's so poignant, too, because it's like, nobody knows how much they love hot water until you have to take a cold shower.
Speaker A: Yeah. And then it's critical.
Speaker B: Yeah. And vice versa. Like, nobody knows, like, how awesome cold water is when your freaking faucets blowing out.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: Hot as hell. You know what I mean? And, uh, so anyway. Yeah, dude, that. That's wild. Well, dude, I appreciate you coming on the podcast.
Speaker A: No, I appreciate you.
Speaker B: Yeah. Where can everybody find you?
Speaker A: Give us The Lumber Plumbing, LundbergPlumbing.com. that's the best spot there. And then, um, we're on Facebook, Lundberg Plumbing. But we're going to be changing our name January 1st, so there we go.
Speaker B: I'll have to update it.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: All right, man.
Speaker A: But I'm going to keep it a secret right now. We're in this whole rebranding phase right now, so.
Speaker B: Dude, dope. Well, thank you so much, man.
Speaker A: No, thank you for having me.
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