5. Value Pricing and Value Selling at Philips Healthcare with Daniel Cho

Anda Huzo: Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Sweet Spot by Pricing Works, where we aim to inspire you to seek and achieve pricing excellence through conversations with fascinating guests. I'm your host, Anda Huzo. On this episode, we bring you a conversation with a renowned pricing and sales expert, we, Daniel Cho, who heads up, uh, the Strategic Pricing center of Excellence at Philips Healthcare. Philips has had phenomenal success with value pricing and value selling, which have generated impressive results for the company. And so we've asked Daniel to come in and share with us key insights about this transformative approach to B2B pricing and selling and what has fueled the success of the company in this area. So we hope you enjoy the conversation as much as we did, and let's dive in. Daniel Cho, welcome to our podcast.

Daniel Cho: Thank you very much for inviting me.

Anda Huzo: It's really a pleasure to have you here. And uh, you have such extensive, both pricing and sales experience that I have to confess that in preparation for this podcast I had to. There were so many things we could talk about, but, but I had to make a short list of. A short list of questions and topics that I'm hoping we can go through today because of course we have limited time. But thanks so much for being here. And without further ado, how about we start with, um, understanding a little bit more about your background and your professional journey so far.

Daniel Cho: Okay, so, um, a lot of people, they are very, very good at what they do. Then they become a consultant to help others. My career is exactly reverse. So my first job is actually the management consultant for pricewaterhouse. So I was trained to be a consultant, uh, and then I started my journey to learn. So the good thing is my next job is actually, um, more focused on selling. And having a consultative background in selling is extremely beneficial because then we can actually look at solving the problem for the customer, uh, look at generating the right value for them and also looking backwards from the outcome that we need to deliver. Backwards, uh, to see what is the time and energy we need to invest and what equipment we need in order to drive the whole value chain so that they at the end receive what they really look for. Uh, so that helped me a lot because that experience in being a salesperson, being a consulting person, ah, are ah, really geared towards problem solving. Um, now when I do pricing, I just apply the same learning and being able to understand the customer, understand their need, understand the problem to be solved and the value we can generate for them help me set up the right price pretty effectively. It matched so well with the value based Pricing methodology. I decided we must adapt that, uh, and it's really helping. I mean in my selling life I was salesman of the month against all HP salespeople selling PC, printer, server. And I was also the sales man of the year for the anti grid to China. And later on HP even gave me the high achiever award uh, before they acquired HP part of the medical. So I joined Philips because of the acquisition. Yeah, so I, I had been selling for, for a lot and I understand customer really wanted you know to have their problem being solved. Uh and they look for values like you know, um, financial value, they would look for value like operational value and that resonates. Even after 30 years they are still looking for the same.

Anda Huzo: Such a fantastic uh, track record. And I want to come back to this dual perspective that you have around both uh, pricing and sales. But I'll come back to this point um, a bit later. Um, so at the moment you head up at the Strategic Pricing center of Excellence at Philips Healthcare, uh, which is obviously a major player in the healthcare space. And I love this name. Tell us a little bit more about the center. Why uh, was there a need for such a center at Philips and what is its purpose or achievements today?

Daniel Cho: Okay, so four years ago, roughly about four years ago, the senior executive, which is the CEO at the time, Franz Van Houten and also Abbott Jeet, being the cfo, they start to create an environment. They want to move Philips into a solution selling company. So not selling products, not selling equipment, but selling solutions. The problem which resonate very well with myself, uh, and I also have the same dream and ambition. So I actually uh, volunteer to take up uh, this role and then create an entity that help them to move towards this solution selling concepts. Uh, and of course at that time, um, because we do not have a central location for call center and all that setup, so we need to attach ourselves to one business leader, uh, and have the business leader leading us. So at that time it was very lucky that Roy Jacobs, which is now our CEO of Philips, was the leader, ah, that adopted the COE and then fully guiding me in order to have also his backing and also his executive support when we do it, and I mentioned it many times in other conferences, value based pricing must be top down, you cannot, but without the executive supporting you, every inch is difficult to move. So I was very happy that Roy was fully behind and of course Abhitji being the cfo, understand the value of value based pricing. He is fully behind us and that created an environment for success. Uh, of course it's not easy because um, we are not just solving one problem. M. I mean we are solving a lot of problems. So even we do not at that time have a lot of commonality between the businesses. Every business is doing their own pricing, their own way of doing pricing. So aligning the catalog itself, aligning also the tooling, aligning all the analytics to see if we are doing better or not. Aligning even simple things like currency, which currency we use, when do we update the currency, uh and also rounding, how do we round the numbers? Do we round it to the latest cent dollar, hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars? I mean a lot of these are not even aligned. And and also if we are going to do a price increase, for example everyone contacted the customer at different time talk about different ways to increase and, and different amount. So during last year for example that was a, a uh, big need for every company to raise their price because of the inflation, the cost increase. So Philips has the same challenge. So we are tasked to actually align the entire healthcare businesses and provide one interface to the customer and say this is the way we are going to increase our price because of these reasons uh, and it will be started on that day. So customer actually responded really well because they said now you know, I don't have to check 16 matters which product is increasing the price at which time uh, I know what you do as a company and I can react very easily and work to know with you very easily. So a lot of this um, of course come back also really strongly as ah, a result. I mean if you listen to our quarterly result, I mean we improve a lot on our profitability because of our ability to react very fast and we react as a whole healthcare system towards the customers and do not meet us for. I mean in the past you have one business that do really well and one that do poorly. But if you listen to Roy, I mean on his uh, uh webcast, uh to the investors he said in every pieces, in every, every market we do well. And because we, we finally have a one way of aligning and one way to interface with customers and driving everyone to the success. And that is reason for a center of excellence that you have one power, you know towards your customers and one way to create uh, the value and also the communication to them so they understand much better what you want to do for them with them. So that's really I believe the uh, good thing and of course the analytics helps a lot. If you have no visibility, you don't know how to drive. So having this ability to let everyone understand where we are heading to. Are we doing well, are we not doing well? And then change very rapidly when we are not. So that is also the part of the job that, uh, the center of Excellence has been doing.

Anda Huzo: This is so fantastic and such a powerful statement that you said earlier that every part of the business is doing well. Right. Like, I don't think there's a greater testament to the role of pricing and the magic and the beauty of pricing than having the results that you're, that you're referencing. And in the pricing community and also with our clients, we always make, uh, reference to the Philips story as a success story and something that everyone can aspire to. So it's really inspiring, really wonderful. So congratulations for all that amazing work that you're doing at Philips.

Daniel Cho: We, I mean, uh, uh, I, uh, cannot stress more. It always come from the vision of your executives. If they do not have this vision, center of Excellence cannot exist. So we are actually being successful by the backing of the executive on every entry.

Anda Huzo: Absolutely. So let me go back to what I said earlier about this dual perspective that is so valuable that you have. Having done a lot of work on the sales side, a lot of work on the pricing side, I know in a lot of organizations there's a little bit of tension between these two teams. Um, so how is that experience that you've had in kind of both worlds contributing to the success of the department. What should salespeople learn from pricing people and vice versa?

Daniel Cho: So I think the luck that I have, this is pure by coincidence that I had been selling before I assumed the role of pricing. So I have a lot of empathy. I understand salespeople and the challenges. I know how difficult it is. And I know also what works, what doesn't work, because it's very easy. You know, you read a textbook and you say, now I know how to do pricing, and then you just throw it to the salespeople and say, now you go do it. Um, if I had not done that, if I do not know a way to do it, I will not launch it. So I always ask myself, I have the ability to do it. If I am not, then these people most likely cannot. And I always use myself as a measure and say that, you know, can I explain to my customer about this price increase? Can I explain to my customer why the price is at that level? Can I, you know, positively communicate the value that we're generating? What tools do I need? How do I make it work? And I have all this in my head and then I create an environment for the salespeople to be successful. Uh, and they like it because they now understand okay, everything seems to work because it's nothing worse than someone throw you as a uh, task that you know you are bound to fail. Nothing is more discouraging, uh, especially salespeople. They want to win all the time but if they're giving a task that they are going to lose the battle, they are not going to be engaged. So I can also train the salespeople because I also have been selling. I can train them both on pricing and on selling. Uh, and this is not easy because yeah it's very easy to do pricing I would say. Although yeah people may debate that but actually pricing it at a value is easier than selling it at that value. So most companies fail on the execution, not on the strategy. Having a value based pricing is 30% I think difficult versus selling it and able to sustain selling at that price by applying value based selling is 70% and ah, that is where we need to be aware of and also making sure we support the salesperson on every step they need to move. It's not easy for them nor natural. I mean value based selling, although it's logical is not natural. Natural is you, you sell by price. That's natural.

Anda Huzo: Yes, yes. And this is a nice segue to my next question. Um, Daniel, in a lot of our consulting engagements when we speak to clients about what their pricing should look like, we talk about what are the best practices and best in class. And of course value pricing and value selling always come up right at the top of the chart. And I feel like in principle there are concepts that are not difficult to understand. So when we talk about what it means it feels quite logical, quite almost common sense I would say. Right. Uh, to a point. But then the difficulty becomes a bit like you said when you actually have to implement and execute on this because not a lot of companies can do it really well. So I want to ask you a little bit about the success metrics or the measures or how can a client look introspectively at ah their business and see whether they're doing value selling and very pricing well.

Daniel Cho: So I think that's only one metrics that everyone is interested. Are we selling at a good price? Because if you are not value based then you have a price normally come from cost, uh and you add a margin and then I mean the good thing about cost base is it's very simple to apply. Everyone can do it. The best thing is how do you explain to your customer why Your cost is at that level because we are a high cost company. We are European, we are not Asian know, so our cost is always higher. If you always dependent on the cost to price your products, it's hard to defend, it's hard to explain to customers. I, I had this very interesting discussion with a Japanese customer. This is a real case. Um, so we want to raise our price in Japan. We say because of inflation, uh, you know, the cost increase. The Japanese customer very polite. We say what do you mean? I said inflation, you know, price is more expensive. And he tell me there's no inflation in Japan. Last year there was zero inflation. So he cannot understand why I'm going to increase the price because of inflation. I explained to him that because we don't manufacture in Japan, unfortunately we manufacture everything in Europe and also in America, sometimes in other countries, but these countries they have serious inflation. So our cost go up. Customer was very polite. Again like all Japanese customer, he said, you have these make a stupid decision not to manufacture in Japan. Now you want to punish me for your stupid decision. Is that the right thing to do, Mr. Cho? So, uh, so it was a perfect answer. So, and I feel he was absolutely right. He don't experience inflation in this daily life. He don't understand why someone else is saying that everything is more expensive and now need to charge them. So of course after some negotiation we end up still able to increase but at uh, a much smaller scale than we originally planned. And if you don't have a plan to sell value, this is the part that you will always fail because you have a cost structure that is not competitive most of the time. Uh, and if you only rely on cost, you always hit this bump. Uh, so if you go for value then it's completely different if you can generate sufficient value for the customer, help them to make more money doing more with less resources, help them to be more clinically advanced, to be uh, delivering first time right treatment. All these things that can help them to be competitive and they win because they improve their own KPI. Then your pricing discussion will be extremely easy. Not linking to something that they do not understand and you are not able to defend. And for me I always measure, um, are we able to improve our price to our customers? Because if you cannot improve your price then the value based pricing do not create value for Philips. So we after all these things, what do you want? You want to actually able to defend uh, a better price for Philips so that you can get the profit you need to reinvest in the next innovation uh, and that is a single measurement that I am truly looking at. So we actually measure price on two points. One is on the execution. Did we able to reduce the amount of discount on the product and making sure that we have better way to defend the price. So that is the more the execution side. The other one is after that execution on your mix and everything else, did you improve your overall what we call Net asp. So Net uh, ASP is netting the configuration effect, netting the way that you are selling it through different channels, netting also on other factors like currency and all that. So if you net net everything, did you actually improve selling? Because that improvement go directly to your margin and your profitability. And this is where I was responsible for to make sure we do something to protect and help company to be more profitable. So I look at how the execution is because that is the front line. If you don't do that well, you will never get the other. But even if you do it, you have to see, okay, after all the net net actually did we get better? Uh, because if you do everything really well, but you don't get better, then everything you do actually make no sense. You are busy for no reason. So that's how we measure ourselves.

Anda Huzo: This is so great and it's a really tangible way of measuring things. And I love what you said earlier about how that extra benefit that you get goes straight to the bot bottom line. I feel like this is a lesser understood or known fact about pricing. And you know, a lot of the times if we would talk to sales teams, I don't want to generalize, it's not everybody, but it happens often that if we ask, you know, how can we improve top line or bottom line, um, the obvious answers are always we can cut costs and we can sell more quantity, right? Like higher volumes. It's very rare that someone comes up and says we can sell at a higher price. This feels like something that everyone is really terrified of because they then requires all of that knowledge and skill to be able to, like you said, defend the value, defend the price. Have some of those sometimes perhaps a bit more difficult conversations with clients. Right? Uh, whether we like to admit it or not, a bit like you said, clients will put you in a bit of a corner and then you need to be prepared to defend that. Yet it's such a powerful lever uh, to use right? When it comes to bottom line pricing

Daniel Cho: is the biggest lever, uh, to profitability that everyone with any mathematical skill can work out. Uh, and the most important thing is, is you have to understand without Changing drastically the way you are selling and you expect a different price is not possible. So you can't control the discount and expect yourself certainly you can be a lot better in pricing. There is something you can do, of course, there's always something you can do. But the way to really jump and leapfrog the way you can have better price and profitability, you have to change your way to sell. And value based selling is that methodology that once you apply it, you guarantee have results. And all companies has proven it. Just one company can do it. Everyone that did it shows they are more capable to gain uh, profitability. I think Deloitte's monitor, I mean they did a survey through 204 companies and they find out the companies that can execute as well as have the right strategy to do value based pricing can earn 24% more profit than a typical company. So on the average of the 204 companies and the one that even just have the strategy and price, it even uh, execution is very poor, they still can have about 4 to 7% better profitability. So this is proven again and again. So for company that want to improve their profitability and the way to sell and not trying to use value based pricing will have a longer journey and a lot more difficult to do.

Anda Huzo: So you mentioned two ways of testing yourself to see if you're really doing value selling and value pricing. You mentioned that if you're always talking about costs to your customer, you're very likely not focusing on the value side. So this is a first, I would say red flag. And then you also mentioned, mentioned this, um, pressure on the discounting and the average selling price. Right. If you're seeing that you're having to do more and more discounting, so giving in on the price, that probably means that you're not able to articulate the value that is kind of commensurate with uh, the higher price.

Daniel Cho: So I always say there are two levels of value based pricing and selling. So the first level is really simple. You're able to articulate enough values to defend your price. The price already exists. You know what you want to sell and you just want to make sure you can explain and also get your customer to support that price. So that is really the entry level value based pricing. You defend a price that you need to get, but the real value based price is when you can link your price directly to the value you generate. So this require a lot of ability to generate your outcome as you promise your customer and able to track and measure that outcome and to be able to price it and invoice that outcome and that need a lot of maturity in a company to execute. Uh, so not every company can do it. I mean sell for example Crox is selling on per page printed as a metrics and a lot of wheel companies selling tires uh as per kilometer traveled. I mean this is outcome based pricing. This is really, really the most advanced and most admired way to do pricing. Linking directly that value to the price. Uh, but minimum, I mean and I expect a lot of company can do as a first step is to able to provide enough evidence on your value that you can justify a price that you need or wanted. That's at least the entry level.

Anda Huzo: Absolutely. Um, so Daniel, we've established that execution is not as easy as it may uh, sound. Uh, or as the concept perhaps sounds. Um, you've mentioned some of the more obvious difficulties when executing um, but for those people who are yet to get started on the value journey, were there any other difficulties that you've um, come up against that maybe are a bit less obvious and we should make people aware of?

Daniel Cho: So as I mentioned the journey must start from the top. So if you do not get your executive to support you in going through that journey it is very difficult because if they don't buy in they will not be able to support you on the budget and then also the resources you need because moving the whole company to something you need a lot, uh, a big marching um, effort and also to change a lot of your tooling and also price um, on value calculators and all that. All this investment need to be coming from somewhere. Uh and my advice is always start doing it small. Find a business or a product that is about to launch and prove to the executive that it works. If I am going to launch it with value in mind, I can launch it strong, I can sustain that price for longer time. And because of this you have to believe this is a better methodology and by that um, we can then get the support us. We are very lucky because in Philips you know, certain business started value based pricing a ah long time ago. So this business are the one that sustained. I have one business in nine years they have zero price erosion. Not a single dollar was lost in their pricing for nine consecutive years. The only way you can do it is by selling value because only you can say the value did not change. That's why my price do not need to change. Uh, and this is really difficult um, unless you know you have a product that keep innovating, um, and to keep that level of pricing that's value based pricing, you know, by practice and this shows to executives to say, do you want. Because on average almost everything you see in life there's an erosion about 1.5%. Uh, so I call price erosion the gravity, you know, something so real that everyone will experience. And if you don't do something to it, it will always go down. So your price always will go down like the gravity. So the only way to push it up is to support it with value. And I think that is something that we show to executive in the beginning and say that you see the business within Philips that are value based, are always more profitable, always have a higher market share, always have customer that are more satisfied because they receive what they wanted, even if they pay higher. And these are uh, also the areas that can fund the next innovation easiest because they have the excess profitability, they can invest into next innovation and surprise the customer even more. And they self funded their own growth and also their share gains. So that was being understood at an early stage. And because of that we get all the support, uh, in creating the right training, in creating the right tooling and creating the right investment, uh, even doing, you know, sufficient market research to understand where the value is for the customer, how do they perceive the value, how can we quantify that value and how can we explain the value to them that they can, they can perceive it and so can we can support the price. All this need a lot of investment and time and energy and resources and without someone backing you up, this is very difficult to do. So that will be my advice. Start from the top, not from the bottom. You need that person to pay everything that you need.

Anda Huzo: Really, really great advice. And let me ask you this. So assuming that you have senior management buy in which we know is not always easy to get, we always say that pricing is a boardroom topic, right? It needs to be discussed in the boardroom. It has that level of importance. What was sort of the secret to getting then the people on the ground and the sales teams aligned to this vision, um, and this way of doing business, was there anything that was important to that?

Daniel Cho: Um, so it's important that once you get the backing from the executive, you also need to explain to them the change is difficult. So it needs to be rewarded. So if a salesperson is able to start doing value based selling, which at the end feed you more profitability and better pricing, you should share some of this back to them. So your incentive system should have an element to reward people that are going to make the change. And if you do not have that incentive. You have much less chance to be successful because the salesperson will say, why should I be doing it? Uh, I have been so successful selling my own way for the last 30 years. Why should I now adapt something new? Just because this person, Mr. M. Cho, believe we should move. It's not easy to explain to them until you show them real money. If you are changing, you get more, uh, as a bonus, uh, and that incentive is very important to fuse that change behavior for, uh, salespeople. So we actually have to implement, uh, incentive system at the back end to support it. And also making pricing a bigger portion of their whole, um, incentive scheme so that they see pricing as important. They say, if I fail pricing, I will not get a, ah, very good reward. But if I am good at pricing, I will accelerate my own profitability substantially. If you want to implement this, make sure you think about the incentive of our salespeople and then think about why they get excited, why they need to change, why they believe in changing is good also for them, not only for the company. Uh, and of course at the end it's also good for customers. Customer also want to know, what am I buying? They want to buy the end result. And I keep using this example in traders. The customer come and say, I want a cheesecake. Then you should be able to give them the cheesecake. I mean, the ability to explain the cheesecake as an outcome, uh, is what we want the sales rep to change too. Because today they are not selling the cheesecake. They're selling the sugar, the cream, the cheese, the time to bake. They are selling the components of the solution. And then they expect the customer to know, if I do all this, you will get the cheesecake. But there's no easy mapping between the two. So features is not mapping to the value. The value is customers say, I want to have more financial benefit. Uh, can you show me how much money I can make, More cost I can cut? Can you show me how I can do more with less resources than I have? This is the cheesecake they want. But you are not doing that. You say, oh, maybe you should buy this MRI machine. Maybe you should buy this patient monitor. There's no direct link, so it's harder to defend your price because customer, they can't figure out, is that investment really bringing me the cheesecake that I need. Uh, and sometimes it's even worse is you bring the customer into the kitchen and design that ingredients, ah, for you, with you, but not knowing what it will come at the other end, which is the cheesecake and the customer always say, okay, I don't want that much sugar. I want less sugar. I want that much cheese. I like cheese. And I don't believe your flour is the right flour. You have to change to another type. At the end, they get a horrible cheesecake and they brain fit us. They say, why you bring me this horrible cheesecake? Uh, because you invite them into the kitchen and they have no clue how to cook or bake, uh, and you let them make the decision. So by not selling the outcome, but selling the input, you always risk yourself. And this is what salesperson has been doing all their life is selling the input, selling the kitchen rather than selling the product, which is the cheesecake. We want to change that behavior from not telling about the features, uh, and the functions and the specification, talk about the outcome, and then that will match a lot better with the customer's expectation and their willingness to pay for that outcome. They know the Cheesecake is for 450. They are very willing to pay 450 if you add ice cream on the side, 550 if you add strawberry on top, another dollar. So this is how you can do value based pricing. A lot easier and better. Uh, and that transition is necessary if you still want to value base your sugar, your cream, you will never be successful. You have to value on the outcome of the final delivery to the customer as what they need. That's another tip.

Anda Huzo: That's such a fantastic explanation and such a nice way of illustrating it into something that is so relatable, something that all of us can relate to and understand. And I think it goes back to what you said a bit earlier, around what we're asking the salesforce to do. You said, I think you said it was logical but not natural. Right. So if we're going to ask you to do this, which is already a bit uncomfortable, to make the switch and make the change, we need to give you the right incentives to want to do it. Right. Because if you don't have the right incentives and you are having to make this change, which is uncomfortable, that is definitely not a recipe for success. Why should you do it?

Daniel Cho: Exactly. I mean, there's no reason for them to change, uh, other than, um, getting this additional benefit for themselves.

Anda Huzo: Excellent. So that leads me to. I would have many more questions, Daniel, but, um, we're getting to sort of the end of our episode. Um, I wanted to reserve some time at the end to ask you a little bit about the current macro environment. We've obviously been, it's been a roller Coaster um, in the last few years with COVID and supply chain issues and massive inflation. Of course inflation is dying down but it's still present even at a lower level which means prices are still going up. The cost of capital is um, going up and that makes it difficult for a lot of businesses. Some of the messages we've heard from some of our clients is that because they were using the cost narrative when costs were going up and a lot of the price increases were done on that basis as some of the costs starting plateauing or even coming down, then the client would say well, is now a good time then to do a price decrease? So how would you comment on that? What is your view on this?

Daniel Cho: So I mean part of value based pricing is also to look at the macro environment and the customer is experiencing. This is their problem. You know, customer also have a problem to buy. Not that they don't want to buy. They either do not agree anymore your new prices because they cannot justify it or they agree but they are not able to pay. They, they have a limited budget and say that based on my poor budget, you know I and I don't want to buy a machine that is doesn't address my need. So of course you can trim the machine down into any shape and size you want and then sell them. But then it's not doing the work they need. One of the part that we are now working together with the sales team and also the customer is okay if it's the ability to pay is the problem. It's not the willingness to pay. You agree this is the right price, only you cannot afford it. Now then we will need to think of different business model and also different payment model to satisfy the new need that the customer has. Uh, so that they will still buying the right thing for them and they will also see the benefit of buying the right thing so that to support their workflow, support their financial and all that. So we need to be innovative to answer that question. The question is if the various pay is still there and willingness to buy is still there, what can we do to help the customer to make them that decision and be together with them all the time, think about them and think together with them and generate a uh, solution that both feel comfortable and happy. That's the only way you can maintain good relationship. Especially for B2B which I see it as a marriage rather than a dating or it's not like consumer products you can buy and forget B2B. You really have this customer for life and you want to create a marriage that both need to sacrifice and build up and then you will both enjoy the result of that. And this is where the, uh, the pricing need to be really careful because you can make and break a relationship really fast if you only think about yourself. And of course, in this difficult time, it's very, very, uh, tempting to think only about yourself because you are also surviving this macro economy. But trust me, if you are willing to think about your customers, at the end, you will still be profitable because they also don't want you to go out of business if you are in the partnership.

Anda Huzo: I love the metaphor that you use. That's really beautiful because I like to be the devil's advocate. I will just ask. So you referenced this collaborative approach to partnership, which is so important, right? What happens if I have, or we have, uh, clients that are playing hardball, bargaining a lot. So perhaps they are aware of the value, but they're not willing to pay for it. It's, uh, kind of the flip side of that coin.

Daniel Cho: What would you say it's like dating? Not everyone can be your wife. This is not my wife. I will not. If a customer is so determined only for the discount and don't talk about value. It's not my customer. I want to be a value company. I want to be a solution company. And if he's not part of that journey, then sorry, we can't be together. It has to be a win win. It has to be a win win. If they only want to win, that is not a customer. I want to keep for life. And I have more choices. I have so many other customers and I'm sure most customers are, ah, willing to work together and be partners. Uh, and the unreasonable one, I want actually them to work with my competitor, make their life difficult. I don't want to have this limited success because this customer will complain for sure in everything that we do because they are not reasonable to start with. So my take is yes, if you have a choice, don't go into relationship that is guaranteed to fail.

Anda Huzo: Such a beautiful way to end the episode, Daniel. And thank you so much for your guidance and advice. There's so much great stuff in there for our audience. I'm sure it's going to generate a lot of questions and interest and I already have a few ideas on how this episode could be continued. So I really hope that we can have you back on the show very soon.

Daniel Cho: Thank you very much and wish you a lot of success.

Anda Huzo: Many thanks as well to our friends at Milk who have designed beautiful art for the podcast and to our listeners for tuning in. If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the Sweet spot on your favorite podcast app. If you have any questions or feedback for us, we'd love to hear from you. So please go to pricingworks IO and get in touch. See you next time.