Non-Negotiables: How the Best Restaurant Brands Scale Culture Without Losing It

Bryan Gorman: Awesome. Well, we can get started. Welcome to the shift change podcast. I'm your host Brian Gorman.

welcome Steve Phelps into the show. Steve and I met at a conference back in February, 2026, a ⁓ months ago. And know each other a little bit there and like to welcome you to the show, Steve. Steve: Thanks, Brian.

Great to be here. Great to chat a little bit about the business. Bryan Gorman: Yeah, absolutely. And we'd love for you to kind of, as we get started, share your background, where you came from.

And ⁓ tell the audience how you got the business and a little bit more about you. Steve: I actually got my start in the business, ⁓ because I a chair thrown out my head. ⁓ So let me explain that. ⁓ in high school, I worked in so I could have some money and take my girlfriend to prom and ⁓ really liked it.

And then I went to college and became a teacher. And, I was working at a treatment facility for youth offenders and got too chairs thrown out my head and said, Hey, ⁓ I need to find something. ⁓ Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Steve: little safer.

And so a recruiter contacted me, wanted someone with restaurant experience and teaching experience. And that's how I started, $21,000 a year back in the early 90s. And that's why I got into the business. And, you know, as most restaurant people, you try and escape once or twice throughout your career, but it's a business you just don't leave.

It's the people, it's the pace, it's being out with guests, it's having conversations, and it's just something you fall in love with. And so, you know, throughout I worked for public companies. worked for Denny's for over a decade. Public companies are interesting because fourth quarter you have to prove your worth in a public company.

And that's just the reality of being in a public company. They have to prove to the street that you're gonna make your money. I worked for PE back companies where the actually the PE group was out of South Korea. We had monthly board meetings at 730 at nights.

We could get on their schedule. A very different experience there. PE is very much a Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Wow.

Steve: about what have you done for me lately and if it's not going the way we talked about, what's the plan? It really teaches you to kind of get your head out of the clouds a little bit and be very intentional about what you're doing work for several founder-led brands. ⁓ that's ⁓ completely different experience ⁓ it's great in its own way because you have someone who's so passionate about the business ⁓ your job is to kind of assist them in letting go of that passion and getting into the nuts and bolts ⁓ having a scale.

Bryan Gorman: Mm. Steve: while still maintaining the integrity and the sanctity of what they founded it for in the first place. so, yeah, big companies, small companies, emerging brands, established brands, but that's what I've done mostly in my career and a lot of time with franchisees, a lot of time with company restaurants, kind of split it down the middle. Bryan Gorman: that's such an extensive background.

And I guess what would be your favorite, if you kind of look back a little bit, what would be your favorite of that? ⁓ you kind of explain with the PE, the founder led public, you know, they probably each have their own, you know, as you mentioned, their, you know, pros and cons to what's your favorite. Steve: make me do. You know, I think it's hard to pick a favorite, but I'll give you a favorite time of my career was kind of early on with the public company because I was learning so much every day coming from my first or second multi-unit role in a public company.

You have a larger group people to learn from, and it was just a great group of people. I still have breakfast with a couple of them here in Chicago once a month, right? And it was just the camaraderie and the learning and the excitement of it. Bryan Gorman: Yeah.

Steve: my first real true multi-unit role. It was just really great to do and it just taught so much ⁓ as did that that ⁓ set up for foundation for future endeavors. Bryan Gorman: So I know we talked a little bit before hopping on, what is, ⁓ you know, what is the, is the biggest mind shift set or shift, I guess, or, maybe even set of what you need to have as you kind of work in all three of these. I'm sure that requirements, but do you need a different mind ⁓ or mindset?

I guess for these. Steve: Yeah, you do. I public companies, a lot of red tape and a lot of hierarchy. And so you really, your mindset has to be about daily work.

And if you're working with franchisees, making those great and about the restaurants, making those great, ⁓ if company restaurants. But in a public company, you really have to be very cognizant of the fact ⁓ that jobs are riding on your success. ⁓ And companies, the tenure for executives are shorter, ⁓ a of cases than in other places. ⁓ You know to be in a true win-win situation.

You have to make sure that those people win and that your goals are aligned with theirs Private equity as I alluded to before You know a of times is a very short window that groups gonna own the company most PE groups own the company about three Maybe five years at the long end and so they have a different goal their goal isn't necessarily Job one being take care of the guests and have a great reputation and a great LinkedIn score and a great net promoter score and a great Google score, they'd love you to have all that and that's the vehicle to their true goal, which is I have to make enough money to make this attractive to sell in three to five years.

And so you have to work a little bit leaner and smarter, which is why I enjoyed that section as well. that's the other mind shift. And family-led, you're dealing with a lot of... this is what we did 15 years ago and it worked.

And family led businesses kind of fall in love with what they've done. And look, you have to respect that. You have to respect that someone a business and they didn't even know if they could feed their family that night and it's turned into 10 locations or 20 locations or 50 locations. you have to kind ⁓ you just dismiss it, right?

You have to respect it and include it in what you're doing and include that passion. and find a way for the founders and the family to respected for what they put together and move forward at the same time and scale the business beyond just, you know, they're a small part of the country. Bryan Gorman: That's all fantastic. And I know you built divisions from the ground up.

What did the process look like ⁓ and were the critical priorities really that when you first got started, maybe those first 90 days, as you and you scale one of these restaurant groups, ⁓ what's that look like? Steve: You know, I think, Brian, that the process starts with you really want to do this. You know, it's ⁓ one of those things where it seems like a great idea and it seems like you make a ton of money ⁓ it's a ton of work. And the thing about starting a franchise division that most people don't realize ⁓ that you are funding it for a year to two years, maybe three ⁓ it really takes off.

And so you have to be willing to adjust your profit model from a comfortable, ⁓ know, profit and EBITDA for a 35 unit Bryan Gorman: ⁓ Steve: You know local chain ⁓ hey, I have to fund this with human capital I have to have people who do the work ⁓ the people who are focused solely on my company restaurants Now have another job or you have to bring other people so you have to really be on board with all of that You also to be on board with they're just as important as your company restaurants founder led ⁓ You know as well as others ⁓ the company are king because that's how you pay the bills ⁓ But if don't ever treat the franchising arm as an equal, you really won't have it take off.

agreed that you're willing to go through the emotional pain and the transition and the financial pain, ⁓ you really have to start with is your value proposition. Why would somebody buy this business? And what you often attract in franchising in the beginning are fans of the brand. And in no disrespect to the fans of the brand, you make the worst franchisees.

fans of the brand can never see how it wouldn't work. I this so much. It has to work. When I was at ⁓ had a franchisee who was a fantastic person, was in the finance industry, successful.

He and his wife opened up two restaurants, I won't where, and he wasn't And he looked at me and said, I don't understand this. ⁓ I thought if built it and had a great building and a great menu, people would just come. And, you know, so have to ⁓ have that value proposition. have to understand who your ideal franchisee is, ⁓ number two.

⁓ You have to have a pro forma for that you have to have a model and you have to have the courage not to take those people in who don't fit that Just because they have $30,000 and a pen to sign that the agreement doesn't mean that they should be in your business because you'll spend years with those people Right. And so then once you've done that it's okay How do I? how and where do I expand and so, you know? Dunkin Donuts is probably that the gold standard of how to expand a brand ⁓ start in a small area you draw small concentric circles around your trade area and you move forward.

Because what that gets you is the economy of marketing, economy of voice. It also makes supply chain very simple. ⁓ you have four restaurants in Massachusetts and one in ⁓ how are you gonna get the food there? How are you gonna get the paper goods there?

How are you gonna do all the proprietary things? And so ⁓ have to decide who the franchisee is, you have to decide where are you gonna franchise. And you have to understand how are you gonna support not just getting it open. which is a year process, right?

Most new franchisees don't realize it's a year at least from the time you say, wanna do this, to the time you open the doors. But how are you really gonna support them once they're open? Because it's expensive. And if you're not opening near your home office, how am gonna do that?

How am I gonna afford to fly someone out even four times a year to go visit someone which isn't enough to take care of a franchise partner? That's $5,000. And you take all the GNA into it, right? So I think that's...

Bryan Gorman: you Steve: That's how you start it. then the ⁓ half of that equation is, and I've told this to many franchisees who want to, rather, business with a franchise, your and procedures have to be so clear that there's nothing left to interpretation. When you leave things to interpretation, then franchisees make their own decision and then it's not the same brand anymore. So a great example of that is if you're doing burgers and you say, ⁓ hey, the burger, Bryan Gorman: you Steve: burger before cooking, okay, you're gonna get lot of interpretations of that.

But if your standards say, do three shakes of the approved salt and pepper mix out of the number 14 container, then you get the exact same salt and pepper on every single burger. Bryan Gorman: Yeah, no, that's that's a great point. And no, absolutely. There's so much that goes into it, right?

And you're right. think the comment you made about are you really in are you all in or not? Right. That's that's that's so, so important.

Yeah. ⁓ absolutely. And think to your point, too, about, you know, Steve, you mentioned ⁓ takes a year, right? I mean, literally, you're you're Steve: It's big.

It's big. Bryan Gorman: You have to invest that first year. remember I had a tropical smoothie franchisee on, earlier, past episode and just mentioned that, know, those are, it's a hundred hour weeks easy. you know, when you're getting started and, and, ⁓ if someone calls in sick to work, you're, you're the one that's gotta be there.

So it's kind of a labor of love. And, but, ⁓ yeah, I think that, ⁓ those, those first 90 days are so important. appreciate that. And I know that, you when we met back in, ⁓ in Texas a couple of months ago, I think your talk was about, you know, onboarding training.

And I know you're passionate about that. And I think you've done over 250 franchisees across 10 different brands, but what do you think is the common mistake that brands make in training how does a poor onboarding experience really affect an organization as they're beginning to bring new, ⁓ crew members on board? Steve: You know, I think the mistake most brands make is they think it's about completion and compliance. So, know, I could go out tomorrow and buy a book on brain surgery and read the whole thing and probably pass a test.

You would not want me operating on your brain, ⁓ So, ⁓ know, when you're setting up a training program, I always do a couple of things. One, you have to honor the different type of learning styles. ⁓ you know, ⁓ can call it different things, but tell, show, do, It all has to be a part of your process. tell them how to do it, show them how to do it, them do it and then review it again.

⁓ many ⁓ think if I have an online learning system and I have some videos or I have some ⁓ ⁓ training. That's just a part of it. ⁓ so you have to personalize that to each learner ⁓ really understand have they learned it. And so what I always put into those systems ⁓ a practical exam.

And use the word exam loosely. It's really a practical test to see where you are in the process. have to know what the team member knows and what the trainer knows. so, ⁓ I showed you how to make a pizza.

Now show me how to make a pizza. Right, can't just be ⁓ answered 20 questions on a computer. It's I can actually make a pizza and you can see what they did wrong. And then ⁓ that, what most brands don't do is they don't create an action plan for the next steps.

You know, when you were 15, you got your driver's license, right? ⁓ you got your license. Well, there were additional steps. ⁓ you had to go learn how to merge.

onto a highway, had to do all these things. And so we train people and say, hey, you know what, I need a server Friday night, so you're on Friday night in the busiest section. So you have to literally have a plan once they're done. And I often add a mentoring program to that.

So whether it's a peer or an assistant manager, you have to have someone to go talk to, to ask questions and someone who checks in on you. And I think most companies don't do those things. Bryan Gorman: No, it's so, so important. And I know you mentioned that when we talked back a couple of months ago, but it's such an important to have that common thread across bringing, know, what's the onboarding experience like, you know?

So I think it's super, super important. know, ⁓ think I guess that kind of leads to the next question. How do you balance? ⁓ you know, standardization with a manager, autonomy and multi unit operations, especially when you're driving cultures hundreds of locations.

Cause you're right. mean, how does it get from ⁓ one across 20 different locations? What's that? What's that process look like and what can you do to ⁓ and scale your culture and scale your people?

Steve: you gotta figure out what your non-negotiables are. And there are certain things you want done a certain way. Right, so Chick-fil-A makes every single chicken sandwich the exact same way, right? You got your two pickles, you got your bun toast, you got everything's the same.

You can't allow one operator to say, well, I decided I want six pickles. That's a non-negotiable. That's not something that's up for interpretation. But there are many things where you should care about the road they took to get there.

If the standard is this, and here's the information I gave you, you gotta let them make it their own. ⁓ know, a example, I worked for Subway back in 1986, back when were slicing meats and cutting the bread with the U gouge, you know, very, very long time ago. And you were to say at the time, when they ordered their sandwich, that's what the fixings, right? I still remember it to this day because I hated saying it to everyone because I would never say that in real life.

And that's why people don't follow the rules. What the goal was, look, somebody figured it out to their credit. That didn't last very long. But the goal was to customize the sandwich and make it their the guest sandwich, right?

So what does it matter if you say, hey, what vegetables you want on there? Or, know, I love tomatoes on that. You want to try some of that? As long as you're getting to the end game.

So there are certain things, again, non-negotiable. But if you let people make it their own, and judge them on the results and not on the journey to the standard, I think you get much farther and you also get by it. The other piece of that is you have to take feedback. I had this conversation with a franchisee yesterday as a matter of where in the first 180 days in the brand, you should go walk around, drive around and visit every restaurant, talk to every manager and work a shift.

Figure out what's going right and what's going wrong in their opinion. I'll give you another great example. hamburger chain years ago and they had a lettuce bun for their burgers. People loved it.

So you took a head of lettuce, you cut it in half, you cut that in half again, you core it out the middle, you took a chef's knife on the cutting board and you cut the edges off. It was a very long process and it worked great. Until one day a cook said, hey, what if you did this? And he reached over and grabbed an egg ring from the grill and went like this over the lettuce.

You cut it in a perfect circle without any sort of knives or anything else. too much of an ego to take from the field, no one's ever gonna do it your way, because they'll find a better way. We made that change immediately, changed all the procedures, gave that person full credit across the brand. Bryan Gorman: That's absolutely huge.

And think it may have been you ⁓ we, ⁓ we, at your talk a couple of months ago, but what the general manager, can you maybe talk about that position and how important that is and that role within the restaurants? ⁓ So think it's a very important, ⁓ you may mentioned this too, but I just think it's a such a huge role and maybe talk about your experience with. you know, maybe managing them and what that looked like in your restaurant experience, how important that is for that general manager to be, I guess, the leader.

And, cause I've often heard that's, that's the most important position in, in, the restaurant. Steve: It really is because the way I see the general manager is the person who takes the company culture and standards and disseminates it down to the team. What most people hire a general manager for is their ability to work way too many hours, ability to ⁓ in position and get dirty to save some labor, and ability to produce numbers. And those are two ⁓ very things.

I think the best restaurants hire leaders who lead and those don't hire people who will do the work. at an unreasonable pace. And the example I always use is, if you look at a football team, ask your favorite football team, what position does the coach play? Tackle, quarterback, kicker?

And the answer is always none of those, because you want them on the sidelines seeing the entire field to lead the team. So when a restaurant company takes their general manager and shoves them in the drive-through, because that's where 35 % of your business comes from, and you don't see anything else in restaurant, how could you ever be successful? And what you end up doing is A, squashing any enthusiasm that they had in the first place, B, you end up attracting people who are just task completers and not leaders.

Bryan Gorman: And this isn't really an AI podcast, if you will, but what are your thoughts on You know, the restaurant industry AI and what's happening. It's on there. Everybody talks about it every day, right? Right now.

But, what are your thoughts on it ⁓ ⁓ how do you see it improving the restaurant industry? And I obviously, you know, if you go up to a drive-through today and, know, it's, it's somewhat automated, ⁓ at the beginning anyway. but maybe how do you see that playing out and maybe changing the restaurant industry and just kind of curious are your insights and opinions on it? Steve: Yep.

Yeah, I think it will change the restaurant industry. And if you want to parallel, if you remember back in the early 80s when someone, or in 90s rather, people started getting wifi in restaurant. It was like, wow, these people have wifi? This is so cool.

And a bunch of people invested in it and they were bad systems and they ended up getting rid of them. if a restaurant doesn't have wifi, you figure something's wrong with it, right? So ⁓ think AI is gonna be the same way. It's already there where it's in most restaurants.

⁓ Bryan Gorman: Yeah, sure. Steve: Where I would start is really depends on your budget and your tolerance for risk. me personally, I'm never one to jump in the pool first on projects. I'll let McDonald's handle that ⁓ because have the funds to do that and they're gonna figure it out.

⁓ I Bell had remote call 15 years ago where they were taking your orders at the drive through in a call center. They tried that out before anybody else. It didn't work. It saved me a bunch of money.

So ⁓ I wouldn't the small change jump full board into. AI, but where it is already having an impact in working, know, in the four walls, there's lots of software that uses AI to predict things and do things. So I'm working with a, with a software company that does restaurant visit forms and compliance forms. And they have a beta out right now where you can take a picture and show them what your cold table should look like and how your pan should be filled.

And if you take another picture, the AI will compare the fill lines on the Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Steve: on the pans that tell you if you're above or below. It could listen in for guest sentiment in the dining room. So all that's coming.

And so I think that's gonna be huge, just allowing some of the mundane tasks to be done provide that information. At restaurant support center, think where it's huge right now is in the accounting firm. ⁓ So you're not using Claude or something like that to analyze your numbers, you're already behind the eight ball ⁓ in my opinion, you could probably take two lower level accounting jobs out of your company and put a lot more money into the higher level accounting person who knows what questions to ask and have information that you could never have an end of.

So I think that's coming. Do I ever think it's gonna take the place of cashiers? Probably at the drive through. I think eventually drive through will be mostly automated, but it'll never replace service.

And I've used robots in... restaurants, there's Flippy the robot who does the french fries and the hamburgers. Those types of tasks can be ⁓ by robots, ⁓ someone's got to assemble it and someone's got to look at it and someone's got to have the critical eye on it to say, this robot made a mistake. So I think you should be cautious, but you shouldn't be sitting on the sidelines completely blind waiting for it to happen because it's happening.

Bryan Gorman: Yeah, absolutely. Maybe can you elaborate a little bit more? I something you said kind of struck me about the accounting. You're on to something there where, you know, maybe I'm a privilege in your mouth, but alluding to where you're that data, having AI really analyze that data and helping you manage your, you know, cash flow, your your accounting, all that correct?

Steve: Yeah, amount of power it has to analyze data is unbelievable. So again, if you know what questions to ask and you put all your let's say even ⁓ just take your profitability. All right. So ⁓ ask AI to put in for these 35 restaurants, tell me who is most profitable.

Tell me which day parts are most profitable. Tell me which day parts are least profitable. Now compare that against their guest service scores ⁓ their food costs and their turnover rate and tell me who's at risk. from one to 10, right?

So you could do that as a human, but how many hours would that take you? And how many departments? You had to get to HR and get the information. You had to go to the operations team to get the speed of service.

You have to go to the marketing team to get something else. So what it's able to do is, as intelligent as you are to ask the question, it's able to give you the information. And I think that's always been the strength of restaurant people is they know what questions to ask. They never have the time to put in to do the work get the information back out.

Bryan Gorman: Absolutely. No, huge, huge, huge. kind of given your ⁓ all years experience, Steve, what shift, and it may be AI, right? But what shift are you seeing on the operational side of things where maybe most other operators are overlooking ⁓ changes in what's happening?

It could be AI, but what are your thoughts around maybe ⁓ things people are missing? Steve: You know, we've talked about AI a little bit, so I'll talk about something else. I think it's the shift in the values of the restaurant worker. So if you look over the past 30, 40 years, restaurant work used to be for high school kids and people who couldn't get jobs.

And then they were for people who came to this country and didn't speak English well. And they were kind of accepted. And it's a profession. ⁓ And now you have working ⁓ are and say kids, anyone under 30 to me is a kid, right, to be fair, history, ⁓ grew up on social media, who grew up on screens, who grew up on phones, they have the same values as ⁓ you Even managers now, and look good for them.

⁓ When we younger, we worked 50, 60, 70 hours as a manager, and you were just tired, but that's what you did to keep your job. ⁓ This generation stand for that, right, and good for them. ⁓ They shouldn't. So you have to understand.

Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Steve: the values of who you're talking to they want to feel like they belong Fairness is a very very big thing for this generation of restaurant worker It's not fair that this person does that it's not fair that this person does this it's not fair I got sent home, ⁓ know, I should be I should be the manager I've been here the longest ⁓ you have to talk with people in a way that makes a difference to them ⁓ especially when it comes to just ⁓ tasks, ⁓ know, it's not a detail oriented workforce right now whether it's again, whether it's language or education or age or just, you culture, it's not a detail-oriented workforce in a lot of cases.

And you have to actually teach why that's important. You can't just assume, you know, there, I would say 20%, 30 % of the kids we hire don't know how to mop. I mean they don't know what chemical to use or where to get it. I mean, they literally, you hand them the mop and they don't know what to do with it.

And so you can't assume anymore that people have certain skills. But on the flip side, you also have to see what skills they do have because they know a lot more things than my generation did at that age. And they're much more intelligent about certain things. So I guess in a nutshell, what I'm saying, Brian, is you have to get to know the people you're working with and understand what their strengths are, what their challenges are, and what they want out of the job.

adjust your work style ⁓ meet that team. Bryan Gorman: Oh, absolutely. Fantastic. So I'm kind of want to switch gears a little bit on you, Steve, and kind of ask you some of the, I guess, fun part, fun questions that these questions weren't fun before, but they're going to be fun now.

What's the wildest, I guess, table or guest situation that you've ever witnessed in the restaurant industry? In your experience? If you could think of one. Steve: Oh my.

I would say working in the 24 hour family dining business, as I did with Denny's for over a decade, once the sun went down, the clientele changed and they're... we'll say their social norms were different. So many times ⁓ were 10, 12 tables ⁓ people in the same party and they would throw things across and they would get up and start singing. So it really was just, it was not people there to eat.

⁓ It was for an entertainment experience. ⁓ And how you work with that? That's kind bizarre. ⁓ But if you kind of accept, hey, let's make sure everyone safe and somewhat professional, let's have some fun with this.

You could actually have a lot of fun with it, right? But it's pretty wacky having people throw in English muffins to each other from one table to another and, you know, getting up to pour their own coffee, which is where you kind of draw the line. But, you know, a lot of fun with people come into a restaurant like that late at night. Bryan Gorman: absolutely.

now what's a popular restaurant trend right now that you think is, is overrated. Steve: So think that the hot chicken ⁓ will die down at some point because it's getting so saturated. ⁓ Look, a great product ⁓ and it's niche product. I've worked with chains, we tried to put on the menu and it didn't sell.

so it actually... We took Buffalo sandwiches off and put hot chicken sandwich in sales tank, but Buffalo back on and went right back. So I think ⁓ is cyclical and chicken right now is the big winner. Coffee the big winner.

Whether ⁓ there's new player every day, whether it's Dutch brothers or Seven Brew or scooters or whomever. And I think people are going back to ⁓ simplicity oddly enough, I think people are starting to crave experience. again. So they've had a lot of meals on their couch in their pajamas and they're not great because they've been delivered by someone without a know temperature-controlled bag and I don't think that's ever going away so don't that but I think people are starting to crave some of this again and so ⁓ like like a hot chicken or ⁓ the the multitudes of coffee will will die down.

I think probably the most interesting one for me, and I've seen this go both ways throughout my career, is the consolidation of brands and then the breaking them up. So, you know, back in the day... Everyone owned multiple brands and then that wasn't any good. So I've asked of all of them.

They all became separate brands. And then back again now where we've added all the brands together. And I foresee again, probably another 10 years where we start divesting those because the promise of shared services rarely a promise you can keep. It often becomes too much for those people.

And so the value that you provided to those brands, you lose focus and you just lose you lose the brand identity and you lose some of that efficiency. Bryan Gorman: to your point too about the the trends, ⁓ at McDonald's conference this past week, the drinks, the drinks are so hot right now, right? The dirty sodas and all of that. Yeah, that's something that is just everywhere.

So what's your thought on that that trend? Steve: You know, I actually think that the drink trend is smart because studies show that in this generation where disposable income, while it seems enormous, isn't as big as it seems, people are skipping meals. And so since they're skipping meals, they're instead of having a $12 fast food meal, they're okay with a $7 drink because one has saved them $5 and they got some emotional pleasure out of it. So I think that'll continue to be a segment that grows the economy ebbs and flows.

⁓ just don't have the money to spend as much anymore. For a family of four, and it's no different than any other chain. I'm just selecting McDonald's, but it's 50 bucks. And that's what McDonald's is built on.

And so now it's not an easy choice where people are okay with the consistency and the product quality. Now it's, hey, should we really spend 50 bucks on McDonald's or should I go to the grocery store and pick up some meat and some buns? I think home meal replacement and eating at home is gaining a lot of traction just because the cost of everything. Bryan Gorman: I think the fast of the fasting trend or the intermittent fasting trend from a health perspective, I think is is is to your point about the missing a meal.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Steve: Yep.

Right, or like the Atkins trend that killed Krispy Kreme. Krispy Kreme was coming to his prominence as Dr. Atkins was telling everyone, if you eat a carb, you're gonna die. And everyone bought into it for a while and it really affected that brand as well as many others.

And so these health trends definitely, to your point, they shaped the industry in the menu. Bryan Gorman: Right. Sure. Yeah.

They do. Yeah, absolutely. if you were opening something tomorrow, you know, a QSR or hospitality, ⁓ something the industry, you know, what would it be and why. Steve: You know it.

I think it's a loaded question, right? So it kind of depends also where you are. You're in a little more rural Indiana. I'm in Chicago, a more different vibe here, right?

So in Chicago, it would be a non-national brand probably, because that's the vibe here. People really like the local restaurant scene here. So if there's gonna be something generic, let's just say though, I think it's something that's really easily identifiable by the guest. So they need to know who you The days of you being everything to everyone is too much.

So you should have a niche, right? Which is why hot chicken is working, which is why coffee is working, which is why pokey bowls are working, right? So I think you pick something small, but it also has to be, ⁓ me, whatever it is, it has to travel. And something that 25 years ago I wouldn't have told you.

So I worked for, again, a hamburger brand that made fresh cut fries. They're the best fries I've ever eaten. onion rings from scratch. Amazing.

They were terrible after you door dash them or Uber Eats them to your house. So, you know, as you craft a menu, it has to be easily identifiable to the guest. It has to be that travels well. And honestly, it has to be something that take away objections for some people.

⁓ So you to have ⁓ things on menu that ⁓ if I'm a meat eater, okay, there has to be something on there that's going to allow me to be there don't try and too many things to too many people and think probably the hardest decision in restaurants right now to be honest with you ⁓ is size do you make the building? For me, that's the question of the 2026 and beyond. You can't build the building for the opening weekend. You can't have 200 seats because you need 200 seats to open.

Right now, many restaurants have what, 10 to 20 % dining guests. And how do you create a building that has flow, that has atmosphere, and still has enough seats to make you profitable? Bryan Gorman: Mm-hmm. Steve: so many seats that you can't afford the real estate.

Bryan Gorman: No, absolutely. Um, and then to end to wrap up today, Steve, if you could go, if one last question, if you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice on day one, what would that be? Yeah. Steve: Who?

Day one, ⁓ it would be listen to the guest. So, know, as you're young or ⁓ your company and successful, you think you know better than the people paying your salaries. And I think that's just natural, ⁓ know, especially if you've been around for a long time, you know what you're doing. The guests will tell you exactly what they want.

and you have to go and ask them because they don't just tell you, most guests tell you by going somewhere else. So going out and asking the questions and looking for trends and patterns and now there's lots of software that do that. I use several really, really good ones that will connect to Google reviews and create dashboards of what guests want and don't want, but have focus groups, have raving fans, talk to your loyalty guests. That's the one thing that I think we missed in the 80s and 90s.

the 2000s is that the restaurant was the restaurant and guests go where you go and, you know, deal with it. But it's not the case anymore. People, and it never really was the case, but no one thought to ask in a lot of cases. Bryan Gorman: great advice.

⁓ Steve, how people reach out to you or find you? Steve: So the easiest way is to my LinkedIn profile. Just search for Steve Phelps and I think there's only one of them, thank goodness. ⁓ phone number and email address are right there on my profile so you're able to get with me.

⁓ always happy to chat with like-minded restaurant folks. Bryan Gorman: Yeah. Thank you so much, Steve. It's been a, been a pleasure, great information and, and, ⁓ just an extensive background you've seen so much and appreciate your time and, thanks so much for being here.

Steve: Thanks for opportunity, Brian. Thanks so much. Bryan Gorman: Thank you.