Sally Chapman From Playing Catch-Up to Leading From Within

Speaker A: I always wanted to be where my sisters were at. I didn't. And you don't think of that as a child. You're just playing catch up. But what, what I can see now, looking back, is that I. I did that with marriage and children. I did that with jobs, and I was always playing catch up. I know I'm an all in sort of girl. You know, I just go all in. It's not like, like, you know, pig farming. I'm all in, you know, running a pub. Haven't done that before, but hey, I can I. And so it's. I think it's a willingness to learn, a willingness to have fun, because I think you've got to have a bit of fun when you're learning, knowing what you're good at. I'm not afraid of hard work. I also know that if I can bring myself, my kind of whole messy life self, my life experiences to that coaching conversation, I think what happens then is that people get to trust me quicker and deeper, which means that they can move faster and get where they want to faster. My husband hasn't a clue what I do, but he is also one of my biggest supporters. You know, he doesn't know what I've done for the last five years, but that's okay because I know he'll always be there.

Speaker B: Welcome to Secrets of Learning and Development, the podcast where we explore the insights, trends and hidden gems that shape the future of personal and organizational growth. Join your hosts, Valerie and Julia, as they uncover the secrets of successful learning and development. Featuring expert interviews and practical tips for executives and professionals. Whether you are seeking the latest training techniques, leadership advice, or ways to build a learning culture, this podcast is your guide to unlocking the potential within yourself and your organization. Get ready for a journey into the world of learning and development. Now, here's Valerie and Julia to start today's episode.

Speaker C: Welcome to the Secrets of Learning and Development. I'm Julia Bend, executive coach and founder of Premier Coaching. And I'm joined by my wonderful co host, Valerie Merrill, training professional and founder of Merrill Consultants. Together, we bring you conversations with guests who have stories worth hearing. And today's guest brings a journey that is anything but straightforward.

Speaker D: Today, we're delighted to welcome Sally Chapman, um, executive and leadership coach, facilitator, and creator of the Lead from Within workbook and program. Sally's path has taken her from agricultural college and pig farming, would you believe, to running a pub, building a successful HR career, and then moving into coaching and creating work that, uh, helps people understand themselves from the Inside out.

Speaker C: Alongside, uh, her coaching work, Sally has created the lead from within workbook and program, developed her own app, and built collaborative workbook through Shine. In this episode, we'll be exploring the pivots that shaped her journey, what made hr ah, start to feel misaligned, and how coaching gave her a different way of working, one that draws much more on values, emotions and honest self awareness. Sally, a warm welcome to the podcast.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me. That was a lovely introduction. Thank you, thank you. I was like, is that, is that me?

Speaker D: Yes, absolutely.

Speaker C: It's all you. You never know what you actually talk about when we're prepping for the show and it all comes out and that's why everyone says, is that me? But it's all you. So let's start at the beginning. Sally, you've, um, spoken about being the youngest of three daughters and always feeling as though that you were playing catch up. Looking back now, how much do you think that shaped the way you approach life and work?

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, and it's such an interesting one that when I knew I was sort of going to have this chat with you, I hadn't realized that I was doing that catch up thing. And it isn't until you look back and think, crikey, yeah, I felt I was always on the bit of a back, back foot. And I have, you know, being the youngest of three, I always wanted to be where my sisters were at. I didn't. And you don't think of that as a child. You're just playing catch up. But what I can see now, looking back is that I did that with marriage and children. I did that with jobs. And I was always playing catch up. And I talk about it with my clients, about how our childhood, uh, beliefs and those stories that we, you know, what happens in our childhood is very much part of our lives. And m. That played a big part all the way through my life. Um, yeah.

Speaker C: So you originally wanted to be a vet, but that did not work out and your journey took you instead to agricultural college and then into pig farming. So what do you remember most about that stage of your life and what did you think it taught you about yourself?

Speaker A: I think it's about not being afraid, following, um, your passions and not conforming. You know, I lost count of the number of times that my mum and dad used to sit me down in my sort of late 20s, early 20s, late teens, and said it was time to get a proper job. Sally. And you know, uh, I got sent to secretarial college. Cause My dad said I needed a skill to fall back on. Um, and then I think it was agricultural college was going to be the making of me because I went in there for farming, accountancy, nothing to do with animals, and came out and much to my parents surprise, decided I would be a pig farmer and move up to Nottingham with a boyfriend. Um, so, yeah, I think

Speaker D: it is

Speaker A: just about don't be afraid to try something, you know. Yeah, things don't always go to plan. You know, I think I shared with you that, um, you know, the pig farming didn't end particularly well after having a couple of serious bites from pigs. But just don't be afraid to try anything. And I think that's what it taught me. You know, we talk about making a plan and having goals and things like that, but I also think we've got to follow our gut instinct. I don't think we do that enough. You know, that's. That's our sort of primeval thing that was, you know, we were born with that. And we tend to sort of like, we. We tend to push that down M. And I really think we need to follow our gut instincts. So I think. And I've done that all the way through, I haven't really had a plan. And as much as I work with people and talk about making plans, yeah, planning wasn't really for me. But, yeah, just don't be afraid.

Speaker C: I mean, I understand. I do resonate with that as well. Cause that's one thing that my family told me is that you need a skill to fall back on. So I too, they did send me to a private secretarial college so you could learn to be a secretary. And that's. That's just the way. Way it was really, and to have a plan. And now you tell everybody to have a plan, but, you know, I never had one myself, to be fair. But moving on. So you've spoken very openly about being, um, attacked twice by a saw and how that that left you with a very real sense of fear. So was that one of the first moments where life forced a decision and the pivot was not gradual at all, but immediate?

Speaker A: I think it did. It did put that fear. It didn't put the fear in me of not following dreams and not wanting to do something. It put a genuine fear and pigs for me. And I think that's. And I contained my fear just to the pigs. Um, um, but it also, it also meant that, yes, I needed to change what I was doing. And I think that that pivot, that, that kind of like force change. It was at that point that I kind of, I met my first husband and I kind of, I probably leapt into that again playing catch up. My sisters had got married, they'd started to have kids and I was like, oh my goodness, you know, I'm still not got that proper job, you know, and I seem to be failing at uh, even the improper ones. And so it was like, well, maybe I'll try the marriage and babies thing. So it did send me down a very different path, but I didn't actually succeed very much at that, that either. But you know, we learn something all the time. And I learned, I don't think in the 1990s we really, really thought about who we were. We didn't, we didn't talk about, you know, what was important in a relationship. We didn't think about our values. We did. It just wasn't, it wasn't part of our conversation. No, uh, you know, it was about finding a nice boy to settle down with and do your parents proud and find a job and yeah, the rest of the world wasn't. It just wasn't there. It wasn't part of the conversation.

Speaker C: Mhm, that's true. So after that came more major life changes, including like, you just mentioned marriage, divorce, and then helping to run a pub with your husband where you went on to win awards. So when you look back on those years, what do you think that they revealed about your character and your willingness to begin again?

Speaker A: I think I'm, I, uh, know I'm an all in sort of girl, you know, I just go all in. It's not like, like, you know, pig farming. I'm all in, you know, running a pub. Haven't done that before, but hey, I can, I can do this. And so it's, I think it's a willingness to learn, a willingness to have fun. Because I think you've got to have a bit of fun when you're learning, knowing what you're good at. I'm not afraid of hard work. And um, you know, the pub life was 247 and it was, it was really hard work. It wasn't conducive to family life and everything. But we, you know, we just wanted to make it better. And I think that's what I've done in every single thing that I've done is like, yes, I can do this, but how can I do it even better? And so it's not a case of, it's not necessarily a case of wanting to be the best. It's a case of how can I be the best of me in it, rather than be the. The best publican or the best. But how can I bring the best of me in it? Uh, and I didn't realise that, I don't think until I've gone through the process of probably growing up and looking back and reflecting now.

Speaker C: Mhm. Then came a very different chapter. And after your knee injury you found your way into schools and then into HR where you built a serious career and qualified at level seven. At what point did you start to realize that even though you were good at hr, something still was not quite right for you?

Speaker A: Um, I was again, I was probably early 40s when I was really sort of trying to climb that HR corporate ladder, so to speak. And I think what I felt was that I just needed to work harder at that point because I was playing that catch up and that old story was going on in my head. And um, what I was doing was I was working so hard that I pushed those niggles down. So there were niggles that I was thinking this made. I thought I'd found, well, basically the first job that I worked in. I was there for eight years and they, they put me through my cipd and um, that was my first real sense of when people talk about belonging, that's when I had that sense of belonging. But I knew that my career and there I was like, you know, a bit late, dad, but I'm on it, I'm on the path now. I was like, I knew that I couldn't stay in that, in the education sector because it's quite constrained. You know, I wanted to get out into the private sector, into that corporate world and do something. So after eight years it was a real wrench to leave there. And then it just felt really hard work because I'd already built up that respect and that trust in that organization. But there was nowhere for me to go. So I wanted to do more in my HR career. So I think what I, instead, what I did was I just kept working harder and harder and I got really, really respected very quickly in the places that I worked and I got a lot of responsibility, a lot of autonomy and a lot of opportunities. And what happened was that I think what, what is happening with a lot of people that I work with now is that because we work so hard, we don't listen to those messages. And I wasn't listening to those messages and those, they were little niggles. But I thought if I just work harder those, you know, those niggles will go, uh, because the working harder Will will make them go away. And that's kind of like the circle I got myself into.

Speaker C: M so you've said that coaching first came onto your radar when you were working with external coaches and also beginning to feel your own misalignment in hr. So what was it about the experience that stayed with you strongly enough to make you leave that world and train professionally yourself?

Speaker A: I think there were a couple of things and we've kind of like touched about values, but one of the things that the external coaches came in to do was we were introducing a coaching culture within the organization. So the exec team that I was part of, we started looking at our organizational values and yes, they're very different to our own core values, but it's got me. I also had one to one coaching alongside of that process is working as an exec team and as an organization. And so I started to get the language of values. And it was then that I started to make the connection that actually there's a values misalignment with kind of the stuff that I'm doing here. You know, uh, there's lots of things around honesty and transparency. And I know if there's any HR professionals listening to this as much as, you know, we are totally professional, but we hold an awful lot of confidential information. And so that honesty and transparency part, when you're taking somebody through a restructure or redundancy process, there's a real clash and a compromise of your values. And. But I hadn't realized. I just thought when I was doing that I, uh, particularly was that wasn't my strength, I wasn't necessarily good at that or that was the thing that I found harder. I didn't think that the values compromise was what was making it feel hard for me. So I was probably being quite hard on myself. And so when those sort of values conversations opened up for me, I started thinking, oh well, maybe there's something different. And I loved watching how coaches brought that out in me because I had no idea it was inside of me.

Speaker D: And it's interesting actually Sally, because you talk about having information, confidential information that other people don't have. I've also been in that situation where I've asked to um, pull a, you know, new joiners together, redundancy because they're moving location, all sorts of things like that. I've known, you know, who was on the list and who wasn't. And yet as an L and D person training them, having been on site for a year or more, you, you have that kind of nurturing instinct and you want to say, you know, start looking for something because your name's on the. But you can't, you can't, you know, your professional exterior has to, you know, pull that back and you have to just be as supportive as you can. Once they know it's hard. Very hard.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And it's that kind of, you know, one of those sort of values, if you can. It's got three words but like that making a difference. You know, most people go into that people profession, whether that is HR, L&D, you want to go in because you want to make a difference to people's lives. And so quite often, but what often, you know, the profession is that you are sitting on that fence. You're working for both the employee and the organization. So yes, you can have an impact, you can make a difference, but you also have to have a business head on. And it's sometimes that uh, that, that, that sitting in between, you know, and because I hadn't, you know, like I said, I'd gone into very quickly and I'd risen the ranks quite quickly and I actually probably hadn't because of my need to get there quicker than others. I probably hadn't realized what was really going on in terms of, you know, internally clashing me and what I needed to show externally. And I think we have a, you know, I can remember that, that very much that instilled in me is being professional. You know, I'm an HR professional and you know, professional isn't emotional. You know, I kept those emotions buttoned M which was really hard for me to keep those emotions buttoned. But it just became part of my practice. It was like, you know, I'll keep them buttoned down because I've got to be professional here at all times. So yeah, I, but I didn't have the language, I didn't have the knowledge, I didn't have the self awareness at that point to realize what was going on.

Speaker C: Oh, this is so interesting. We're going to take um, a short break here and when we come back, Valerie will continue the conversation as we look at what Sally has gone on to build through her coaching work. We'll be right back.

Speaker D: Welcome back everyone. Let's continue with Sally's journey. Sally, since moving into coaching, you've built much more than a one to one practice. One thing that really stood out for us was how the lead from within workbook grew from what you'd seen over the years. People learning something valuable and then going back to work and never really using it. So what made you want to create something that helped people stay with the work and put it into practice again?

Speaker A: I think that's from my HR days. So I, you know, I, I was one of those very, very busy professionals that if I did take time out of the business to go and, I don't know, attend an employment law conference, I can remember, or any sort of HR conference or L and D event, I can remember I'm a real note scribbler. And I'd write all these notes down in my book and then I'd come back and I'd have all of these ideas buzzing of all these things that I was going to do when I got back into my day job. And then I just got back into my day job and I never did anything with it. And I think that, you know, we miss a trick with, with so much of learning and development is that we don't get. And that's what's wonderful about coaching is that they are, they are micro moments of change all of the time. It doesn't mean you don't have to do the big stuff because we think about coaching as being big goals, big impact, and you can have all of that stuff. But it's through the small things that we do and we, you know, it. So, uh, when I started working, I could see that people were coming back to me for a reason, so they must have liked my style. And I'm like thinking, so, you know, my practice clients came back as paid clients and then they'd come back again and, you know, people would come to an event and then I'd stay in touch like I did with Julia, which was lovely. And so there was something that I wanted to keep the conversation going basically. And to me, the workbook felt one like a good way of keeping the work going, not losing sight of what I was doing. But when I did my Emotions coaching training, there was a kind of, I mean, so I'm, I don't know, four years into my practice, when I trained in 2025 for the emotions coaching training, there was a real like pin drop of. Actually, emotions are connected to absolutely everything we do. It's the missing link here. And if I can tie that in, then I feel like I've got something really good here, something really special. And, um, it was one of my practice clients, through the Emotions coaching practitioner work that said to me, actually, this stuff is really good, but I could really do with writing some of this stuff down and I could do with having maybe a visual of some of the models you're using. And she said, have you ever thought of doing a workbook? And so it kind of just grew from there, really.

Speaker D: Yeah. And it's not just that that's grown from there either, because you've described, you know, one of the things you love about coaching is the chance to create. And that really comes through in the app as well. I mean, what made you want to turn your ideas into something people could actually use in that way? The app, for example.

Speaker A: So when, when I first started coaching, I created a shine coaching model, which to me, it really broke it down into really simple steps because I noticed the questions I was asking, I was asking my clients, so what does success look like to you? How is it going to make you happy? Why is it important to you? You know, what are the next steps and how much energy have you got to it? Those are the kind of the elements of shy.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I noticed that that. So that was going through. That was going through. My sort of like, just naturally came out. So I did this as a, um, you know, just as a model. And then one of the things that is really important to me, again back from my HR days, is making it coaching accessible. So to me, accessibility is really important. So I thought, well, downloading an app, you know, 4.99 for an app, I don't know, 9.99 for an app or whatever it is, it makes coaching accessible to people. Because I was only given the privilege of coaching myself, um, because I was in an executive leadership role, people further down weren't given the opportunity of coaching. I mean, it is more commonplace now, but still, coaching is still quite an exclusive thing to be able to have access to. So to me, it was around that accessibility bit. I mean, the app itself is no longer in, what you call it, publication. I don't know, it's no longer out in the world anymore. Because it was one of my learning points. I did. It was definitely a sort of like, I did this app and I was really, really proud of it, launched it, and then I was like, well, everyone will find it. I obviously forgot the marketing bit of, you know, running a business has got many, many strands. Absolutely. And I kind of thought, oh, we know, I thought. So the marketing went. Went a little bit away with the app, but actually what it did is it taught me so much, ah, so much more. So that when I came down to do the work with Lead from Within and the workbook and program, I know it's not, it's not a quick fix, you know, I don't have to play catch up. This is my product, this is my program. It can take as long as it needs. And so it's really helped me one, to get really clear on what creating something is. And if I want it to have the staying power, then I have to stay with it. Um, and so that's what it's taught me.

Speaker D: Mm m. Because if we think about Shine and you've just gone through what SHINE stands for, you know, how did. How did that kind of come about, you know, and that sort of. If you like collaboration, what's that given you personally as well as professionally?

Speaker A: I think the Shine bit came about because Ingood company, who I trained with, they decided that year, that the year after I finished, I qualified was to put on a coaching summit. And they invited people to join the summit and they were. They were able to present something. And I'm like, well, what can I present? I don't know. And then I just. It was. It was one of those creative moments. So that kind of like, came from there. What the. What Ingood company do really, really well is they bring people together. And I quickly realized when I started working as a business owner and in Shine Coaching, I was just one person. And what I really recognized that I missed was that sense of belonging which I mentioned I had back at first, felt back along many years ago in education, and I really missed that. And so seeking out people who I could collaborate with. So I worked with another coach, Kate, in our collaboration, uh, of Rebel and Shine. Seeking out people that I can collaborate with actually gives me that sense of being belonging to something bigger than just me. And that's really important for somebody to sort of, you know, ride that roller coaster with you. So the highs you can celebrate together, the lows, the, you know, um, the whole. The whole shebang, really. And. And also that support network, you know, we take it kind of for granted at work, but when we're a sole trader or we're a small company, it's really important to have that support network around you. I mean, my husband hasn't a clue what I do, but he is also one of my biggest supporters. You know, he doesn't know what I've done for the last five years, but that's okay because I know he'll always be.

Speaker D: There's a difficult one, isn't it? My mind works in the business with me, so he does know what we do.

Speaker C: Um, mine makes it his business.

Speaker D: Yeah, he's invoicing for it also. That's what's important for him. Okay. One of the strongest threads in your story, Sally, is this move from trying to. To be what work needed you to be, to being so much more honest

Speaker A: about who you are, how you work

Speaker D: best, and, um, what does lead from within mean to you Now, I think

Speaker A: that's, again, back to those childhood stories, those childhood beliefs that we. You know, a biggest one for me that I found out when I started being coached myself was my need to fit in. You know, having been. Having been not really fitting in anywhere, having been a child that moved around, always the new girl with a bit of a strange surname. I had a different name, obviously, my maiden name, had lived in Northern Ireland, in Birmingham, had different accents. There was a strong desire to fit in. I just wanted to slot in. And I think that's what drove that. Uh, you know, whenever I did a change, although I wasn't frightened to change, I felt then that I needed to fit in once I got there. And by fitting in, was working hard to fit in. So there was kind of like this kind of like bit of a loop going on. And it's not until that you start, you know, training to coach teaches you, not only does it make you, hopefully, a really good coach, it teaches you so much about yourself because you go through the process yourself. Uh, and I'm still learning about myself now. You know, all of the time, I am still learning. But I also know that if I can bring myself, my kind of whole messy life self, my life experiences to that coaching conversation, I think what happens then is that people get to trust me quicker and deeper, which means that they can move faster and get where they want to faster. So I think it's been really important that, you know, I no longer feel the need to fit in. You know, I went to a training event last week, and I quickly, after day one, I realized these aren't my tribe of people, but I can still learn loads of them, and I can really honestly get that and not feel the need to be that part of that tribe, be really honest with myself and actually say, but that's okay. We can't. We can't fit in everywhere, but I can still gain something valuable, but I can still be me. Um, and I love being able to stand up and do that now. It gives an inner strength. I think once you know yourself that

Speaker C: well, it certainly does.

Speaker D: Yeah. And I'm wondering if that's what. What you. All of the chapters of your life, from pig farming through HR through the workbook, through the app, through shine, it's kind of all been preparing you for this moment where you have that light bulb moment.

Speaker A: M. Well maybe, maybe someone had a plan then. Maybe someone did have a big plan in the end. I don't know.

Speaker C: Oh well, it's true to say, it is true to say because when I started this journey of coaching and deciding that for myself that you know, this is the route that I was actually going down, I took myself right back to when I started working and in all the roles that I've done, including the roles outside of my corporate work, you know, the, you know, my being a nail technician, being a Kate uh, designer. It's all about positioning. And there is with you if you go back you'll see a thread of what actually ignites you within that, you know. So don't disregard your pig farming. Don't disregard the so you know being your fear of so you know that, that little so that hurt you because part of that is part of where you are now. It's just that you don't see it at the time because pig farming and coaching, you know, seem like worlds apart. But it's all part of positioning you for where you are now. And then you'll, you will. For me I saw the thread of everything that I actually did, all the roles that I did within the corporate world and outside of the corporate role, I could see what actually ignited me in what I'm um, what I do today. So I do resonate with a lot of what you've just said.

Speaker D: Me too. So as you look ahead now Sally, what feels most important? Growing the business, speaking more openly about what you do, reaching the right people or simply keep building something that still gives you joy?

Speaker A: Do you know I think they're all linked. Uh huh. I think they really are. Because you know what I'm doing at the moment brings me a lot of joy. I think that it will reach more people. One of the things is that you've got to love what you do. If you are uh, it doesn't mean to say that you have to have the most amazing. But if you can't talk about what you do with that belief, that self belief, that passion and that joy of doing it and getting something out of it yourself. You know somebody I worked with yesterday checked in at the sort of, you know she checked in at 6 out of 10, completely overwhelmed, no headspace. At the end of the coaching session she said I was, I was checked in at a six out uh, of ten and I was an eleven out uh, of ten on the outside. But she said you know what, I'm checking out as a 10 out of 10. Just a solid 10 out of 10 now. And so to me, it all kind of brings it all together. You know, being able to do the work that I do is. Is reaching those people, but it brings me as much joy. It's building my program, letting more people about it. I mean, my. My dream would be to be sort of known as, like, I don't know, the emotions, coaching coach for leaders or something like that. I don't know, because I just know how powerful the work is. And, you know, it. It makes such a difference. If we can understand those emotional patterns, those triggers, those defaults, if we can understand those. It's not about leaders that don't have that. All of the skills. It's. It's been able to help them slow down a bit so that they can understand those patterns and then they can do what they're doing even better. Yeah, I agree.

Speaker D: I agree.

Speaker C: Absolutely right.

Speaker D: Sally's such a honest and thoughtful conversation. We'd like to thank you for sharing your journey with us and for reminding us that the path into meaningful work is not always predictable. We've all got those. I'm an all in girl as well, so I completely understand that. And thank you as well for sharing more about the Lead from Within Workbook.

Speaker A: The app.

Speaker D: Okay, the app is just a stage, but your work with Shine, and what came through so clearly is that your work is not just about helping people make changes on the outside, but helping them understand what is really going on underneath their values, their emotions, and the parts of themselves that they may have lost sight of.

Speaker C: Can I just say, as well, sorry, Valerie. That I'm actually working through the Lead from within, uh, Workbook. Uh, and for me, it has really made me slow down. Well, on two account, uh, accounts. Sally knows about this, that I'm actually writing in the workbook, but it sort of coincides with what you said that used to go and write a lot of notes when you go to conferences and stuff, and then you just don't look back on them. Whereas, you see, for me now, I'm actually writing in your workbook. And it makes me think that I really do need to think about what it is that I am writing because I don't like scribbling out. So therefore, I don't want to scribble out in my book. So it takes me. It makes me slow down, really think about my emotions and what it is that I'm going to put in there. It's a brilliant, brilliant workbook. And I'm still working through it, but it's good so far. Oh thank you.

Speaker D: Excellent Julia. Well, I uh, have not got that far yet Sally, but obviously I will be so if Sally's story has resonated with you, please like comment, share and share this episode with colleagues and others who would benefit from listening. We've really enjoyed this conversation and all that Sally has shared with us. Keep listening to the secrets of learning and development. Please do DM us comment and Sally's All Sally's information will be in the show Notes. Thank you very much. Thank you Sally.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss the future episodes. If you enjoyed this one, we would appreciate it if you could leave us a review as it helps others find the show. Thanks again for joining us. We look forward to exploring more secrets of learning and development with you next time. Until then, keep learning and stay curious.