The Joy of Leading: Building Cultures People Never Want to Leave

Very basic idea that uh you wanna have fun at work. You wanna be in a place where you can make things happen, where decisions can be made, you can make an impact, and uh yeah, also make a business impact for that matter, necessarily impact to people and and that uh fund uh creating that workplace that people are talking about, that people enjoy coming to work at, that's like the at the core of it. Welcome to the Secret Life of Great Leaders, a podcast by Triple Gold. We share deep transformational conversations around leadership and personal development to help you uncover the unseen facets of human growth and leadership impact.

I'm your host, Michael Buntin. Welcome to the Secret Life of Great Leaders podcast. I'm thrilled to have Soren Brogard with me today. Sorin is the CEO of Track Unit, an organization that works globally, but the head offices are in Denmark.

Welcome, Soren. Fantastic to have you here. Thank you, Michael. Great to be on your show.

Thank you, Soren. Let's just give us a quick background, Sorin. You've been the CEO of Track Unit for how long? Give us a little bit of context of what the business is and some of its gifts and challenges.

So Track Unit is uh is an amazing business in the construction tech uh industry where we connect to machinery that makes job sites safer, uh, rental companies more efficient, and uh machine manufacturers more wise. They all use our platform globally. We are in more than 100 countries with approximately 450 people. We generate around 200 million in recurring revenues and um yeah, what can I say, 3 million assets connected to our cloud and um an industry leader.

My way into uh being a CEO came from joining the company back in uh 2016, first as a CTO, then I became the CIO, and when the company was about to make a shift with a new owner, I was offered the opportunity to step in as CEO and take the company on its next uh journey. So I think that's uh that's so much for me. I will say that prior to Track Unit, I spent 20 years uh in corporate. I had my upbringing in Snyder Electric, an amazing workplace with amazing leaders.

And prior to that, with American Power Conversion. So I've been around the block, I lived in the US for a couple of years, I've been in Germany for a couple of years, I've seen multiple cultures, values play out for good and bad. I've always been a big believer in creating organizations that are joyful to be part of, that creates an amazing learning opportunity, and where people are ultimately proud uh when they are here, but also when they leave. And I have so many friendships and strong connections over my nearly uh 25 to 30 year career now that uh invaluable and that I really uh enjoy.

And when we first met, you talked about this vision of making your culture uh one of the best or the best culture in the world or an example of great culture. And uh and we started doing some work together, which is really interesting. And I wonder if you could just share uh from you know, if you had to where does it all begin? Like, how does one shape a culture?

Like if you're a team leader or department led or a CEO, where does it begin this journey of beginning to shape your culture more consciously or make it better? Well, back in the days uh and uh not even today, I think it started with the the foundational uh very basic idea that uh you want to have fun at work. You want to be in a place where you can make things happen, where decisions can be made, you can make an impact, and uh yeah, also make a business impact for that matter, necessarily impact to people, and and that uh fundament creating that workplace that people are talking about, that people enjoy coming to work at, that's like the at the core of it.

And clearly over the years, as you get smarter, as you experiment, that you're trying a lot of different things, you start to become more clear about what are the ingredients that really makes people, teams, organizations, and companies uh click. I have this one thing in most of my interviews, or when I do I just did it yesterday, a new higher orientation for another, you know, I think it was 10 or 15 people, amazing new people, talent coming in to track unit. And uh I asked them this basic question: think about the last time you were truly motivated, you you were in flow, you you had the most amazing time doing a project.

Just think about that for a moment. Most people can do that, most people can take them back to a moment in time where they had a lot of fun and made incredible things happen. And it turns out there's almost like the same three or four ingredients that are present uh among us when that happens, right? You need to work on something you believe in.

People call it purpose, people people call it a great mission. You want to work with people that you really care about. Some people call that belonging in teams. We know that people leave teams, not companies.

You want to be able to make decisions and be empowered, right? And by the way, ask me to work on the things that I'm really good at. Don't ask me to do things that I'm not good at. And when you start putting all that together in small teams, you can quite quickly get that to work.

When you scale, the company gets bigger, you get investors, the market, uh, customers might have new domains, that gets really tough. And I've always been a big believer of uh, I mean, Netflix coined this very well in the late 90s, where they say you've got to decouple scale, revenue growth, product with with product with uh process, red tape, and bureaucracy. Um anyway, so I think at the core of what we're trying to do here at TragUnit is to create that moment of joy, that uh incredible power that sits within, knowing that is it half the organizations around the world have disengaged teams.

But it's not enough to have uh fun and being highly engaged, you also need to create results. The business side is equally important. So at TragUnit, we we talk about that as walking on two legs, right? We have teams that are incredibly high on engagement, but doesn't deliver the results.

That doesn't work either. So this balance uh is is important. And maybe one last thing I will say that has helped me is whenever you talk about engagement, teams might be a conflict, might be an issue, might be a problem. I always encourage people to think about it in a way where track unit is in the room, is in the conversation.

What would track unit say? What would track unit ask for? You know, follow the flag, don't not the leader, be conscious about what track unit needs. And um, when your growth company, and in the last five years we've been growing 20% in a compounded annual growth rate, the company constantly outperforms its organization.

There's always new demands. And people are saying, so on, can we stop changing? Well, can we, I mean, give us a break? And and unfortunately, that's not how the word the world works.

So we need to create an organization that is ripe for the pace of learning, that is comfortable with the way things are moving ahead. And it's, I hate to say it, it's it's only getting uh more crazy as we are now sitting in the most crazy technology revolution of all times. So um, yeah, that's a little bit about what's going on in my head this morning. That's a lot going on.

So so in my in our work, uh, we are always interested in how CEOs, senior leaders maintain trust and credibility and connection with their organizations and how they examine their behavior around that, how do they keep themselves on track? There's this often this expression with CEOs that the further you go up the chain, the more narcissistic you become, because the less and less honest feedback you get about your behavior and you start believing your own hype. And can you just talk about us knowing you've been through a journey around this and uh and especially the name of the podcast is a secret life of great leaders?

It's like the behind-the-scenes story. Uh, because we can all believe so easily. Oh my god, Soren, he's so successful, he's perfect, he's got everything sorted, right? He must, but are you do you see see yourself as a work in progress with behaviors and leading?

What is your work in progress? How do you think of your own journey as a leader? And in doing so, help us, the rest of us, understand how we could think about our own journey around leadership, our own ongoing, imperfect journey. Yeah, it's a good question, Michael, and and I've been thinking about it.

Um, and it's it's it's it's a crazy thing to start getting really serious about. Because just like maybe many of your listeners, me growing up as a leader, as a manager, you know, getting more and more responsibility, I was constantly uh blessed by being sent on these amazing leadership uh courses. You get your Myers Bricks, you get your 360 valuation, you get coaches, etc. And uh you leave with this um these insights on how you see yourself against your manager, against your team.

I think we've all been through these 360s, and you return to work and you're totally fired up to go change uh the way you do things, and you find yourself a quarter later being back to normal. And it's always been puzzled, you know, what is it that is that is going on? Why why is this not profoundly going? I mean, what do I need to um uh how can we change this uh dynamic?

And I think that's uh that's very much where I think your own work has been very inspiring to me, in the fact that if we take the behavioral changes and we scale it down to only one big thing or one big practice that I'm really committing to changing. And not only that, but you also bring it in uh to the working environment with the people that see, observe, and work with you every single day. That has been for me uh a real blessing because it's so easy to be smart uh in a conference room, uh drinking latte or flat whites with uh other uh people who are on this retreat.

But bringing into the work environment, committing, being um challenged, agree with your, in my case, uh my my chairman, agreeing uh with my direct team and being open about what is it that they would like me to not fundamentally change, but adjust to become a better CEO, to become a better leader for them. And do that in a compassionate way. So it's not image management, it's not something that we're saying just to pretend, but we actually truly mean it. And they are part of the solution, i.

e., they also own a part of me changing, and the way they own it is by daring to give me candid feedback. And uh boy have they given me candid feedback almost to a point where I said, This is enough, I need a break. But uh that's that's what it takes, you know, facing those brutal facts and daring to step into that um uh I would say that room of uh where you are exposed and uh where you create that trust that the team dares to give you uh feedback uh you know every week, every two weeks, or whenever it it comes up.

So um we've just thank you for sharing that. We've just uh in in this morning got brand new data. So every now and again, because we assess a lot of leaders and we also assess their behavior against outcomes, like what we're interested in, the name of the business, triple goal, and you put it beautifully. I love how you talked about two legs earlier, right?

There's the results leg and then there's the happy people leg. That's the way I heard it as well. Like these two things you've got to look after. You can't just do results and burn people.

We've got this new four-quadrant model, we call that the the golden torture chamber when we're burning people and driving results, and then but you can't just also look after people and ignore results. We call that the decaying country club. It's like everything's lovely, but we're not actually delivering results. And the great organization is driving both you know happy people and results, and part of that results is also consistent innovation, which you talked about, your 20%, you're obviously innovating like crazy in your business.

So, and then we looked at more recently what are the behaviors that most damage. We got the results, as I say, this morning. What are the behaviors that are most damaging those results in leaders, and what are the behaviors most enhancing uh results? I'm gonna read these behaviors to you, and I'd love to then, if you don't mind, reflecting on your own journey around what specific behaviors have you been working on and what you know that what is your ongoing journey?

Give us a bit more uh information as as listeners. So let me just quickly read them to you. So the first is I wasn't planning on this, but I thought this would be useful. We know that in what we call the green zone, we measure 42 constructive leadership behaviors, and we we now have this morning data, we're now looking at what are the five most important of those 42.

Number one, treat people with care and respect, it's a self-regulating behavior. Number two, take accountability for your decisions and actions without becoming defensive. Number three, give people freedom and choice how to do their work. You've spoken beautifully about giving people the ability to make decisions.

Uh, number four, drive, uh sorry, maintain discipline, focus, and key priorities. We're seeing over and over again that organizations that can't maintain discipline and priorities burn their people alive. It talks about serious torture chamber and it affects results too. And then lastly, give people the information and resources they need to get their job done well.

Those are the five most important constructive behaviors. And then the most destructive behaviors are really interesting. We measure 39 red zone, what we call red zone statements. Each of the third there's 13 categories, and there are three statements in each.

So 13 times three. It turns out defensiveness as a set of behaviors, the all three statements make the top five. So being defensive is bad news for uh for performance and engagement. So uh makes I'll I'll read the actual defensive statements, makes excuses or blames others when challenges or failures occur, uh, responds to challenging feedback with aggression or blame, and responds to challenging feedback with denial, excuses, or withdrawal.

It's the flip side of the blame. But basically, the the not willing to look and take ownership. And then the other two are number two is using more force than required when dealing with challenges, disagreements, underperformance, so it's aggression basically. And then lastly, which is an affirmation of the green, tends to be chaotic, jumping from one priority to the next.

These are sort of, in our work, you'd say the five deadly sins of poor leadership. And I wonder if you could just characterize or help us uh understand what's your journey, because we we know that good leadership is is the maturity to recognize I can strain into the red zone, that I'm not perfect. The ultimate worst red zone is that I pretend I don't have one. I know that you do not do that.

And then there's a recognition that just like in a marriage or just like in parenting, it's it takes conscious effort to be at my best. It doesn't happen by accident, right? Uh tell us about that for you. We can take this in so uh in so many directions.

Um, my my own red zone is to uh be way too demanding. And that that's a paradox for me because you also need to be ambitious. You also need to constantly show what the company will look like in five years, and then you need your team to help build the bridge and show the path to get there, right? So the why and then get everyone engaged on the how.

And we are we are living in this crazy moment of time. I mean, we are we are deeply exposed and also see a ton of opportunity in in AI. And and it it sounds almost too obvious, but we we're literally rethinking our business model. We are rethinking the way our customers are engaging with our technology and so forth.

And I know, and we know for the first time in the history, the cost of software development is decreasing. It's crazy to think about. So when people are telling me, hey, so on, I need more resources, I'm also asking myself, well, are we using those resources in the best possible way? And what if we can actually do twice as much with half the resources?

What if we were an AI native company? We don't want this to become a tech talk, but you you have these massive forces, I think is my reflection of that our work environment with technology is truly changing. And how how is it that we as leaders can help our employees and our companies, or how can track unit, not me, how can track unit help track unit become uh having fun and engaging in a non-intrusive way, uh where this becomes a natural way of learning. Right?

That's that's a big thing, and that ties directly back to my red zone because in the past I would be uh quite demanding on doing X, Y, and C. I would be um describing exactly what I would expect in quite literary terms. Uh today what I'm trying to do is to be um more thoughtful about it and provide uh inspiration and be a bit more coaching in this way and and and set more, I would say, abstract uh objectives that then need key results and where the team is coming in and saying, hey, what about this and can we do this, etc.

And like any other uh I think uh person on your in in this journey, you always default to becoming way too uh soft or way too not soft, but you you sort of overdo the skill you're trying to do, and then you you come back and you find a middle way. But I it it it is an insane time that we are that we are living in with massive disruptions from the outside that needs um yeah, careful uh considerations and caring on how can we change the way we work. So I'm I'm smiling because uh here's how I'm hearing this, right?

Just and I'd love to just hear your response to this is uh you know, it and and having had the absolute privilege of working with you over a couple of years now, uh, and I've teased you at times saying, you know, your journey is to go from stern school principal to to more curious, more coaching style, because that that that absolute, and it shows in the business that absolute love of excellence, that love of driving results, can also become prohibitive or difficult because it can become uh stern and scary and prescriptive and people dis and disengage people and and maybe at its worst uh it can it can harm performance.

And here we are in a moment where I can imagine it's like it sounds like a crazy analogy, and it's we're having we're we're on a podcast talk, so we can have a bit of fun with this. It would be like being an alcoholic in a brewery. That's what I hear you describe. It's like it's like okay, I've already got this over-demanding quality that I need to work on, I need to prepare it back, become more curious, so give more space and autonomy to the organization to learn.

But at the same time, man, there's a pace of AI happening. If we don't get on board faster than the competitors, if we don't until we're gonna, it's like live or die. There must be a feeling of we're either living or dying, we've got to move. So I can imagine it's like such temptation to go, I need to drive here, I need to push, otherwise we die.

How do you manage those forces in you? That must be quite challenging. Well, uh, I think it's a couple of really obvious things that we are trying to do now. Uh one thing is to create inspiration, create these parallel experiences.

What do you see uh around you and bring that in, bring bring that uh insight, and just give people hands-on experiences. Um and then uh asking, we ask ourselves a basic question: what would a native AI company do? Right? If we were 10 people starting in a garage right now, how would we solve this problem?

Right, okay. Um and then allow people to demonstrate and showcase uh how they're using AI and elevate that up on town halls. And there's a big, big theme for us where yeah, there's a productivity race with AI, but there's also a product race. And uh we are increasingly becoming a more product focused, almost almost product fanatic, right?

Because the product is where our value is creating being created. To us, AI is not an afterthought, it's not a productivity race, it's a product, it's a change of the way our customers are engaging with our technology. And I we need the whole company to lean into that and get excited about that. And that happens through, yeah.

Can I characterize what I've just heard and just see if I'm understanding you correctly? Instead of driving from the known world, like where you say, yes, what we're going to do, go part of which was part of your red zone behavior, some of your default behaviors, that deliver results up until they stop delivering results. This is what we say to all our clients, is that evolutional growth is when the moment when a behavior has been working for you now it's not working. Now you're in the moment of growth, right?

And you the pace of growth you've faced multiple moments. What I'm hearing you say is that I'm my practice or my process as a CEO is to not lean on drive more and push more, is to create forum and space for learning to occur, for pitching to occur, for a process to occur around me that I don't even I don't have as much control over, but it's essential that we foster and develop this. And that's part of my own personal development practice as a leader. Yeah, 100%.

100%. That's ex that's spot on, and uh, you're so good to uh in articulating that. Um because that's really what uh what what this space here takes uh for every every individual in Triangle to lean in, get excited, and experience how accelerated learning can actually both deliver results and also create an engaging um work environment. So I've got another question for you.

We find, you know that expression building the plane while you're flying it, right? I'm sure you guys are familiar with that expression in your job. I personally find, and I'm just curious how you manage yourself, again, secret life, right? Tell us the secrets of what's going on behind the scenes, sir.

And uh I know for me that when we're rebuilding the plan, we have we have these sprint experiences where you know you get to a point where a product beds down and you and you and it's great because you you you're now making good profits without double work. But as soon as the innovation stuff comes in, when it the innovation which sounds heavy for you, suddenly it's like you're you're working two jobs, getting paid one, you know, to use a silly expression. And you can get very reactive, you can get very exhausted, you can present average products in front of clients that are incomplete, and it gets messy, uh, and it's kind of it can work against you, not for you.

How are you guys, how are you thinking of that as a leader? Like, how are you thinking, how do I keep the ship moving, keep some order, but also keep experimenting and innovating? How do I disrupt myself while I still have steadiness? How do you think of that?

How do you manage that lead that? Everything starts with what is it that you fundamentally believe in? Um what is what are the big shifts, whatever it is in technology or the customers you serve or the market you are in. Uh we have listed four to five massive shifts that will occur over the next four to five years.

And we spend a lot of time on defining that and getting comfortable with that. And clearly there is a lot of guesswork in that. But there's a general trend that uh is both a threat and creates excitement. And once you sort of have that carved out, it becomes very, very clear how your core model as it currently is uh will not get you there.

So it creates that sense of urgency, it creates that uh I wouldn't say a burning platform, but it's definitely close. Yeah. Yeah. And then from there, it's a matter of how do you organize yourself.

I mean, there's there's there's so much theory, there's so much uh business books written about this. And um what we have been trying to do, and we are still we're still early days in this, is you you need to nail three to four uh major customers who see it the same way as you do, that is willing and able to dive in and help you uh create it. It's it's really hard to just go away for two years, build it. If you're not in pharma but in tech, uh then it's a little bit different.

Um, and then uh ultimately, um, if you really want to uh make a foundational change to your business model or to the way you're thinking, you almost end up setting up a business that competes with your core business. You almost need to create a business that disrupts that what got you here. That's super hard because we'll have investors on one side who need to see numbers being delivered, but you can also see that uh the world isn't changing. That's why being PE backed, that track owner is is an advantage being private, because you can actually take that investment for a two or three year cycle, and then you can benefit from it uh over the next uh two to three years.

It's much harder to do if you are a public company. And I think this is also the reason why companies end up having a hard time transitioning through these technology shifts. But it's not easy. So I'm hearing that you know you it's not.

I'm hearing A, it's exhausting, it's not easy. Yeah. Uh and also like so you having to effectively try and disrupt yourself. I like the fact that you do it in conjunction with clients, that makes a lot of sense.

You don't just go away and do it, you you're in connection with clients, you're innovating with clients, right? That makes a lot of sense. I want to just switch us back to, we don't have much time left. I recognize you need to go to another meeting.

I just like to hear the emotional side of you said you said earlier, um, because you want to behave in a way that maximizes your organization's outcomes, right? Happy people, the two legs, happy people, great results, and also the middle leg. We you know, in our work, the middle leg is the constant innovation, you're gonna keep disrupting yourself. You talked about people gave you feedback and wow, they gave you feedback, right?

And you kind of said that with a certain look of like they gave you me feedback, and maybe it was too much feedback. And in context, we've just had this research come in that says that your your worst enemy is defensiveness, right? It's your worst enemy as a leadership as a leader. Um tell me about that process.

When you know, when you say too much feedback, what's going on? Is it emotionally painful to take feedback? Is it breaking your image? How have you managed that in yourself?

Uh it it was a little bit of and it still is, a journey uh in into yourself where you uh are being you've been comfortable with uh with your red zone and you are you know showing compassion uh towards uh yourself. Um yeah, fundamentally you're trying not to be too hard to yourself. And I think that's easier easier said than done. Um I'm also very realistic that it might at times be a little easier for for the CEO to be comfortable than uh anyone else who's going through this work.

So I'm very, very aware of that. And then daring to explore where is this sensation, where is this eager to either be defensive or to apply your red zone by sort of overtaking the conversation and doing too much deal? Where is it fundamentally coming from? Where and that has been a really interesting uh journey for me.

What are the underlying deeper values that um it drives you uh both good and bad? And most of the time, these fundamental values and drivers create amazing results and got you to where you are today and will keep being in favor for you, but there's also times where they are working against you, and having having that uh awareness allows you at times to in that microsecond to uh adjust your behavior from red to green zone. And that has been a real uh pleasure for me uh to create that or to to get that awareness, accepting that it it will still occur, and it occurs uh almost uh every day.

Um but I think the key the key difference for me is that when it happens, and it can happen in in in small variations where people are fully accept accepting it or not even realizing it's red zone, but I realizes it. Yeah and then allow yourself to go back and course correct or take the feedback in uh and become better next time. So I'm just gonna again for our listeners to bring you in have never heard our worker, like what are these guys talking about? Uh, and just you please correct me, right?

Pretty quick hypotheses that part of your success as a leader and a CEO has been being decisive, vision focused, driving that vision. Sometimes it's more appropriate to stop, take a breath, give people space, give people time to explore, be curious, understand what's going on instead of just driving. Uh, we know from the term psychological flexibility that the more mature leaders become, or the more effective they become, they can flex. They can sometimes be decisive, they can sometimes give space for discussion, curiosity, debate.

Um, and the best leaders will tend to know when to do both. A red zone behavior is usually when you're overdoing something that so, in other words, in Soren's case, you're always driving, you're always pushing the conversation, you're not giving people enough space, you're being overly directive, and you pull yourself back into the green zone, meaning you recognize right now I need to give people more space so that I can be more balanced as a leader. Uh, and then when and then it sounds like you've also uh going, I know I'm not perfect, I can stuff this up regularly, which is a part of maturity.

We recognize we're human, and I want to get feedback from you guys when you think I'm overdoing it. I might hate you for that feedback, it might sting like crazy when you give me that feedback, but I'm committed to being the best leader I can, so I will course correct. Uh I just want to check how does that land as I share that with you? Is that describing the journey in some way?

I think that's but on. And what we've been able to do at Track Gunnar since we've had most of our leaders uh through the program over the last two or three years, plus all new leaders that come into track gunnet gets the training. We can now extrapolate that red and green zone narrative up to a team level. So products as a team, engineering as a team, or product teams, sales teams.

Yeah, we can also take it to a track unit level. Uh and and use this metaphor uh to speak about when is track unit doing great and when are we red zoning and when are we green zoning? And I think that has been a true blessing to create that language inside track unit. Yeah, and that's really useful because you you it's like it's so strange because you we all overdo our strengths.

We all overdo our strengths, and then they hurt us, and it's it's almost like this endless balance, right? And as we often say in the gulp dividment, is looking at the problem, not through the lens of the problem. It's being able to look at it, going, what's going on here? How are we behaving?

So uh again, conscious of time, I wonder if we could finish this podcast. Uh, I'll ask you two questions. You don't have to answer either or both. Um, one is what advice would you give to a young leader who's learned like they can go study the techniques of leadership, but so that they ensure a trajectory of growth and learning and development in their careers?

What would you say to them if I was a young leader and I said, Surin, you're successful you're a successful CEO of a successful business. I want to be an exceptional leader. What advice would you give me? Um keep keep seeking uh insights, uh reading books, listening to podcasts.

Uh you know, who are the ones that truly inspire you, leaders who've done something that is amazing. And just getting, I mean, just get see a lot of different examples on how to apply uh leadership and and create these uh moments of of insights in your life and just have this conscious stream of thought-provoking leaders and ideas that uh can build you a bit of a catalog uh of of ideas that you can then go apply. And then I would so once you have an inflow, and that inflow can come from conversations, it can come from books, it comes from studying, it comes from um courses you go to, but just make sure you have that inflow of uh inspiration, then I would say, okay, start testing, start applying it, do what you uh feel is right, what feels right to you and your body and your soul, who is it that you want to become, and start experimenting, see the results, get the feedback.

And once you start to experimenting, make sure you do it in a compassionate way. When you deal with people, there is a very fine line on when you overstep boundaries. And I have at times overstepped boundaries on things I probably should not have done because I was young, I was naive, uh, and I felt that was a good thing. And we then rebounded, and I got that feedback.

And so so you need to touch, you need to push the boundaries a bit, uh, and then uh get get the feedback and the support um in applying and testing and uh finding your way uh as a leader. Can I add one? I mean, that's amazing advice. I love it.

It's like the commitment to lifelong learning, lifelong experimenting, right? Just because of today's research coming in, and then just can I add something? And I know you would say this anyway. And when you do get feedback and the feedback is tough, that's a celebration because it means that people trust you enough to tell you the difficult feedback, and then make sure you don't defend it.

Stay curious in that feedback because curiosity is your friend, even though it can be unbelievably painful to hear feedback. And I know, Soren, you've talked about this and you do this. This is your friend, and openness and curiosity is your friend, not defensiveness. Well, certainly.

And uh yeah, thank you so much for your time today, Sorin. Thank you, Michael. Appreciate it. The Secret Life of Great Leaders is brought to you by Triple Goal, where good coaches become great and leaders grow their impact where it matters most.

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