Leadership as a Living System

1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,560 SPEAKER_03: And one of the most simple patterns will be your 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:03,919 standard drama triangle. 3 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:05,599 So all of a sudden you will go away. 4 00:00:05,679 --> 00:00:08,320 You'll see me as a persecutor and you as a victim. 5 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,679 And then maybe a friend will try and come and help you and try 6 00:00:11,679 --> 00:00:14,720 and make you feel better, but you don't want to move from the 7 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,199 victim space because that's kind of comfortable, right? 8 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,960 Now that dynamic has now been, you know, dead. 9 00:00:21,199 --> 00:00:24,399 And it's fuelled by the response that you've not dealt with to 10 00:00:24,399 --> 00:00:27,120 the fact that I've used my power and control imbalance. 11 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,800 Do that once, do it again, do it again, and all of a sudden that 12 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:31,760 dynamic, right? 13 00:00:31,839 --> 00:00:35,039 And in this instance, I'm just using the drama triangle of 14 00:00:35,039 --> 00:00:39,200 persecutor, victim, and helper, and you move people around, that 15 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,280 will start happening all around the culture. 16 00:00:41,359 --> 00:00:43,920 And it will start moving around and moving around and moving, 17 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,799 you know, we know things like misery lights misery, and you 18 00:00:46,799 --> 00:00:48,320 know, there's an in-group and an out. 19 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,840 And remember what I said, the engine of us is perpetually 20 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,079 self-organizing because we're a living system. 21 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,960 While there are power and control imbalances that will 22 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,240 create responses, and if responses are not dealt with, 23 00:01:00,399 --> 00:01:02,640 they have to be dealt with so that we can readdress the power 24 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:03,759 and control balance, right? 25 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,959 If we don't, then they'll form destructive patterns as opposed 26 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,519 to generative patterns in in the way that the whole organizers, 27 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,400 the whole organization is organized in terms of its 28 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,079 culture, its processes, its workflow, and things like that, 29 00:01:18,159 --> 00:01:18,480 right? 30 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,959 And so and that would just proliferate and proliferate and 31 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:22,079 proliferate and proliferate. 32 00:01:22,239 --> 00:01:24,959 If all this power and control is happening at the biggest set, 33 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,239 then when you come down into your smaller team, you will 34 00:01:28,239 --> 00:01:31,920 intuitively and unconsciously want to do something to 35 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,120 readdress the balance of your powerlessness in one place. 36 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,680 So you'll overextend in another, right? 37 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,280 You'll be out of control and powerless in one area, so you 38 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:42,799 will need to exert power and control. 39 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,280 SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Secret Life of Great Leaders, a 40 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:46,640 podcast by Triple Gold. 41 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,239 We share deep transformational conversations around leadership 42 00:01:50,239 --> 00:01:53,840 and personal development to help you uncover the unseen facets of 43 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:55,760 human growth and leadership impact. 44 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,079 I'm your host, Michael Bunting. 45 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:04,319 Michael Bunting here. 46 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,719 Welcome to the Secret Life of Great Leaders. 47 00:02:06,879 --> 00:02:10,159 Today we've got a fascinating guest, Bryn Edwards, and we're 48 00:02:10,159 --> 00:02:13,039 going to talk about why psychology is failing and we're 49 00:02:13,039 --> 00:02:15,039 going to look at how to change systems. 50 00:02:15,199 --> 00:02:17,680 For those of you who are working at senior leadership levels, 51 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,479 this should be a really interesting podcast for you. 52 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,919 Bryn, would you mind giving us a very quick intro of your 53 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:25,840 educational background and what you do? 54 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,439 SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I did a degree in psychology at 55 00:02:29,599 --> 00:02:32,000 university back in England, which I found quite 56 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:32,639 underwhelming. 57 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,879 And then then a couple of years later, I did a a master's degree 58 00:02:36,879 --> 00:02:39,360 in organizational psychology, which brought some really 59 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,719 interesting points up, but uh still sort of missed the mark a 60 00:02:42,719 --> 00:02:43,520 bit for me. 61 00:02:43,759 --> 00:02:49,199 Um and then from that I went into management consulting in a 62 00:02:49,199 --> 00:02:54,000 number of top-tier consultancies for about 15, 18 years before 63 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,759 sort of coming in a big full circle back to my educational 64 00:02:57,759 --> 00:02:59,280 roots where I find myself now. 65 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,840 SPEAKER_00: When you say educational roots, what do you 66 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:01,919 mean? 67 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:02,879 What are you doing now? 68 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,479 SPEAKER_03: So when I went out into the world of management 69 00:03:06,479 --> 00:03:09,360 consulting, it was almost like everything I'd learned in in 70 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,919 terms of organizational psychology and psychology was 71 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:12,719 just in the background. 72 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:15,680 Occasionally it'd filter into what I was doing. 73 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:17,199 Now it's very much in the front. 74 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:19,280 SPEAKER_01: Okay, great. 75 00:03:19,439 --> 00:03:22,800 So Bryn, even before we started the recording of the 76 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,240 conversation, you were saying psychology is failing or failing 77 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:26,400 us. 78 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:27,599 Let's hear more about that. 79 00:03:27,759 --> 00:03:28,560 What do you mean by that? 80 00:03:28,879 --> 00:03:30,719 SPEAKER_03: Look, you and I connected from a post that I 81 00:03:30,719 --> 00:03:34,560 wrote on LinkedIn last year that seemed to go nuts about it. 82 00:03:34,719 --> 00:03:39,520 And I think I think some of the premise of that is that 83 00:03:40,319 --> 00:03:43,439 psychology has been captured with by science, and you know, 84 00:03:43,599 --> 00:03:46,639 science has its place and scientific methodology has its 85 00:03:46,639 --> 00:03:46,800 place. 86 00:03:47,039 --> 00:03:49,520 But science is very good at isolating parts. 87 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,680 But we work as a living system, and those parts we need to 88 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,599 understand how those parts all come together to form the whole. 89 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,199 Um, you know, we are greater than the sum of our parts, we're 90 00:04:01,199 --> 00:04:02,080 a living system. 91 00:04:02,479 --> 00:04:06,800 And so, you know, even if we look across the sort of 92 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,000 leadership management development space, you can have 93 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,039 decision-making experts, critical thinking experts, you 94 00:04:13,039 --> 00:04:16,079 can have emotional intelligence experts, all these different 95 00:04:16,079 --> 00:04:21,600 experts on individual parts, but it's how do they actually all 96 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:22,079 come together? 97 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,879 Because you don't just make a decision and you don't just 98 00:04:24,879 --> 00:04:29,040 think, you you think, you feel, you have beliefs, you have a 99 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,600 core nature, these things that you say and do, and the 100 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,720 decisions you make, and they all work together as one, a whole 101 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:35,519 living system. 102 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,040 And so for me, psychology is failing because it isolates 103 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,079 things down into key parts and goes to town on it, you know. 104 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:47,199 Experts have their place, but experts, as we know, know a lot 105 00:04:47,199 --> 00:04:50,959 about small things, but you know, there's more to us than 106 00:04:50,959 --> 00:04:52,879 just individual small things. 107 00:04:53,439 --> 00:04:57,120 And so there's that coupled with the fact that you know we are 108 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,360 seeing an increased rise and prevalence of mental health 109 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,199 issues, and then if we look at the workplace, dysfunctional um 110 00:05:05,519 --> 00:05:08,800 toxic cultures, and you know, we're becoming aware of things 111 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:09,360 like that. 112 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,720 But you know, where is psychology blending all of these 113 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:13,199 together? 114 00:05:13,439 --> 00:05:17,040 And you know, if more and more people are having more problems, 115 00:05:17,199 --> 00:05:20,079 it's good for the business of psychology, right? 116 00:05:20,959 --> 00:05:25,040 Because you know, you've got increasing number of customers 117 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:25,759 turning up. 118 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,480 But I guess for me, you know, my big part in this is that that's 119 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:36,160 failing because um, you know, where are we looking at things 120 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:41,199 upstream to understand how how we're getting to the place that 121 00:05:41,199 --> 00:05:43,680 we've got to and what are the patterns that we're we're 122 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,680 recreating repeating that mean that we're seeing this increase 123 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,360 and increase and increase of dysfunction. 124 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,879 SPEAKER_01: So in our work we've got a a three I'm just gonna 125 00:05:52,959 --> 00:05:55,759 hear I'd love to hear your view on this, and then because when 126 00:05:55,759 --> 00:05:59,279 you talk about systems as are a living or living systems, I just 127 00:05:59,519 --> 00:06:00,959 love more clarity on that. 128 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,319 So let me just give you a quick structure of how we work, and 129 00:06:04,319 --> 00:06:06,639 then I'd love to hear your commentary on that and what are 130 00:06:06,639 --> 00:06:10,000 we missing and where and so we when we when we work with 131 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,720 organizations, we start with defining the outcome. 132 00:06:12,959 --> 00:06:17,120 I recently did a keynote talk where uh the the keynote started 133 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,279 with something like if you go onto Amazon and you look up 134 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,439 leadership, you'll get over 60,000 book titles. 135 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,600 To say it's overwhelming is insane. 136 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,199 And every leader is saying this is the most important and that 137 00:06:27,199 --> 00:06:27,920 is the most important. 138 00:06:28,079 --> 00:06:29,920 So it's very, very difficult to work it out. 139 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,720 To your point, there's lots of deep experts and they all claim 140 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,879 that they're seeing the whole elephant when they're seeing a 141 00:06:34,879 --> 00:06:35,680 part of the trunk. 142 00:06:36,959 --> 00:06:39,759 We ourselves helicoptered back out and we said, let's just ask 143 00:06:39,759 --> 00:06:40,639 a different question. 144 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,199 What are great leaders supposed to produce? 145 00:06:44,399 --> 00:06:46,720 You know, like a great football team wins football games. 146 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,040 Okay, the definition of a great football team is they win 147 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:49,600 football games. 148 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,319 How they win their football game can be different to another game 149 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:53,199 and so forth. 150 00:06:53,439 --> 00:06:54,879 So we start off with outcomes. 151 00:06:54,959 --> 00:06:55,920 We always define outcomes. 152 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,639 We say to the client, hey, what are you trying to achieve? 153 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:00,800 And we think great leaders produce three things great 154 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,279 outcomes, like as in performance outcomes, whether they're a 155 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,399 charity or a for-profit business, they deliver what they 156 00:07:06,399 --> 00:07:10,240 are attempting to deliver and add value and make profit. 157 00:07:10,399 --> 00:07:12,560 The second thing they do is they deliver agility. 158 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,360 It's not really a deliverable, but they're agile, they learn. 159 00:07:15,519 --> 00:07:17,680 There's this consistent ability to learn and transform. 160 00:07:17,759 --> 00:07:20,800 And the third thing they produce is joyful workplaces, great 161 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,920 workplaces where people thrive and are whole and feel complete 162 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,319 and they've got integrity and psychological safety and all 163 00:07:26,319 --> 00:07:27,199 those wonderful things. 164 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:28,959 We call that in our work the triple goal. 165 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:30,480 And they say, well, that's the whole so what. 166 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,560 If I'm looking at my leadership, why? 167 00:07:32,639 --> 00:07:35,199 I'm looking at it to try and improve performance outcomes, 168 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,439 learning outcomes, and happy people outcomes. 169 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,600 And we've kind of got unanimous agreement on that role around 170 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:42,639 the world with our clients, right? 171 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,120 Like, yep, we all agree that that's what it is. 172 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,279 Then we look at behavior set, and then we look at two kinds of 173 00:07:49,279 --> 00:07:49,600 behaviors. 174 00:07:49,759 --> 00:07:51,759 We go, well, there's there's behaviors that harm those 175 00:07:51,759 --> 00:07:55,120 outcomes, all three of them, and there's behaviors that support 176 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:55,680 those outcomes. 177 00:07:55,839 --> 00:07:59,120 So, for example, avoiding honest conversations would be harming 178 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,000 the outcomes, and having aggressive conversations would 179 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:03,040 be harming the outcomes. 180 00:08:03,199 --> 00:08:07,040 Having constructive, balanced, direct conversations can help 181 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:07,600 those outcomes. 182 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,199 And then the third thing we look at is what we call the drivers 183 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:12,160 of those behaviors. 184 00:08:12,879 --> 00:08:15,439 And then we look at that, that's where we look at the external 185 00:08:15,439 --> 00:08:16,639 system and the internal system. 186 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,879 So we go, what's the surrounding system? 187 00:08:19,279 --> 00:08:22,879 The routines, the rituals, the incentives, the beliefs, the 188 00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:26,639 collective beliefs of the group that are driving those 189 00:08:26,639 --> 00:08:30,079 behaviors, and then what's the internal system of that person, 190 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,039 their childhood story, their conditioning, their cultural 191 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:35,120 conditioning that they carry inside them? 192 00:08:35,279 --> 00:08:40,240 So those drivers collectively, individually and collectively in 193 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:44,559 inform the behaviors, and then the behaviors will ultimately 194 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:46,159 determine a large portion. 195 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,879 Our research has 45 to 50% of the outcome. 196 00:08:49,519 --> 00:08:53,759 Could you just share with me how you hear that and and and and 197 00:08:53,759 --> 00:08:56,720 when you talk about system, what do you mean living system? 198 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,320 SPEAKER_03: Yeah, look, uh so let's start with the living 199 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:01,200 system bit first. 200 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,519 Let me let me give you a simple analogy, right? 201 00:09:03,759 --> 00:09:08,080 If if I was to bring a bicycle in here, right, we could take 202 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:13,279 the bicycle apart, right, look at all the pieces, put the 203 00:09:13,279 --> 00:09:16,480 bicycle back together, and you could ride it, okay? 204 00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:20,240 Because it's it's an inanim, it's an inanimate object, right? 205 00:09:21,279 --> 00:09:24,320 If I took you, if I brought you in here and broke you into all 206 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,039 your parts and tried to put you back together again, it wouldn't 207 00:09:27,039 --> 00:09:30,960 work because there's more than just your parts, right? 208 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,919 If you tried to break up all of a company and put it back 209 00:09:33,919 --> 00:09:36,559 together again, it wouldn't work, right? 210 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,399 And so a living system is something that's dynamic, it's 211 00:09:40,399 --> 00:09:43,600 adapting, it's ever-changing, and it is an entity in and of 212 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:44,159 its own right. 213 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,759 I mean, we're obviously an entity, but you know, if you and 214 00:09:47,759 --> 00:09:50,480 I, Michael, hang out, you know, we have a connection right now, 215 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,600 but if you and I hang out more, we'd develop a relationship, and 216 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,200 that relationship would be inclusive of both of us, and 217 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,840 that would become an entity in and of its own right, right? 218 00:09:59,919 --> 00:10:02,399 And that would become a living system in it. 219 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,360 You know, it would change and develop and adapt over time and 220 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:06,320 reorganize. 221 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,120 You know, one of the things, one of the things I have to get 222 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,720 across to all my clients is that one of the features of being 223 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,399 alive is that you're perpetually self-organizing. 224 00:10:16,639 --> 00:10:19,679 And one of the features of being dead is that that abruptly 225 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:20,559 stops, right? 226 00:10:20,799 --> 00:10:24,399 So now it's fun, but then it asks it poses the next question 227 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,799 of what are you organizing around? 228 00:10:27,519 --> 00:10:28,159 Right? 229 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,720 Because this machine, this this engine of self-organizing is 230 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,080 happening all of the time. 231 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,679 So, what are the key organizing principles upon which that is 232 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:38,159 happening? 233 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,440 So that's that takes me into the three things that you've just 234 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:41,840 mentioned. 235 00:10:41,919 --> 00:10:45,279 And interestingly for me, the thing that you presented third 236 00:10:45,279 --> 00:10:50,000 would be the thing that I present first, which is what are 237 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,120 the drivers behind the behaviors, right? 238 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:58,000 What are the dynamics that surround everything, right? 239 00:10:58,159 --> 00:11:02,080 Because we like to think, because we're all very isolated 240 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:03,519 and individualized, right? 241 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,559 We like to think that the individual is all powerful and 242 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,320 they can control everything, right? 243 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:09,840 But you don't, right? 244 00:11:10,159 --> 00:11:13,039 The bigger the space, I mean, I just talked about a relationship 245 00:11:13,039 --> 00:11:14,240 between you and me, right? 246 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,080 That's a space that covers two people. 247 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,159 But you go into, you know, like a family is more than two 248 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:20,399 people. 249 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,360 It's, you know, the grandparents and everybody. 250 00:11:23,519 --> 00:11:26,639 And then you go into a community group, and that space is even 251 00:11:26,639 --> 00:11:30,080 bigger, and you go to an organization, particularly a 252 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:31,600 corporate, and that's pretty huge. 253 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,200 And you know, they get bigger and bigger. 254 00:11:33,279 --> 00:11:36,799 And what goes on in those spaces, you know, the bigger the 255 00:11:36,799 --> 00:11:41,039 space, the bigger capacity to influence what is going on 256 00:11:41,039 --> 00:11:41,919 inside of it. 257 00:11:42,159 --> 00:11:46,480 Influence the way you act, the things you say, the things you 258 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,480 do, your thinking patterns, your feeling patterns, the stories 259 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:51,279 you share. 260 00:11:51,519 --> 00:11:54,879 And they can even get to the point where they they interfere 261 00:11:54,879 --> 00:11:58,080 and disconnect with your connection to your actual core 262 00:11:58,080 --> 00:11:58,960 nature, right? 263 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,279 Your own individual core nature, right? 264 00:12:01,519 --> 00:12:05,200 So what's going on in that bigger surrounding set, the what 265 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,600 you call the was it the driver's set? 266 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:08,320 Right? 267 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,480 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we we we we think of it I always try and I'm 268 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,080 trying to it's like you embrace the whole, but also make it 269 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,360 simple enough to start dealing with pieces without mixing 270 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:20,080 everything together. 271 00:12:20,159 --> 00:12:23,360 SPEAKER_03: So we can so you so you know, I mean the the most 272 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:24,159 obvious thing, right? 273 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,279 And I'll go a bit further go a bit deeper into it, is you know, 274 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,000 the most obvious thing is that you know it it's one thing 275 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,200 saying, Oh, we want you all to get work together in a team and 276 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:34,639 be creative and harmonized. 277 00:12:34,799 --> 00:12:39,759 Yeah, at the end of the year, you know, particularly I worked 278 00:12:39,759 --> 00:12:42,799 in some American-based companies, right, like Accenture 279 00:12:42,879 --> 00:12:44,720 and Chevron and places like that. 280 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,759 At the end of the year, you're being ranked against your peer 281 00:12:47,759 --> 00:12:48,480 group, right? 282 00:12:48,639 --> 00:12:48,960 Yeah. 283 00:12:49,279 --> 00:12:53,919 So you you can say you want me to work in a in a company in a 284 00:12:53,919 --> 00:12:57,360 team in a collaborative way, but when it comes to the business 285 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,960 end of why I'm here to make some money, because most people, like 286 00:13:01,039 --> 00:13:03,759 let's just be blunt, most people are not doing the job that they 287 00:13:03,759 --> 00:13:05,039 really want to do, right? 288 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,000 They're doing the job that they can get paid for, and I did 289 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,559 this, just because I was good at it and got paid well for it, 290 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:11,039 isn't it? 291 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,279 I enjoyed it, it came at a massive toll. 292 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,080 And so, you know, and we delude ourselves, like pretend that 293 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,080 this stuff's not happening, right? 294 00:13:20,159 --> 00:13:23,279 But the blunt truth is, is at the end of the year, like I want 295 00:13:23,279 --> 00:13:25,840 to get paid more because that's the name of the game, right? 296 00:13:25,919 --> 00:13:29,440 And if the way that that happens is that I have to appear better 297 00:13:29,519 --> 00:13:32,960 because I'm being, you know, squeezed into a bell curve 298 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,759 ranking system at the end of the year, then I'll do all the 299 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:39,200 things necessary, Machiavellian, to shit on the people behind me. 300 00:13:39,279 --> 00:13:42,399 So I pop up at the top of the ladder, so I get the above 301 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,759 average score, so I get the promotion and the greater the 302 00:13:45,759 --> 00:13:46,559 greater pay. 303 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,840 And anybody who thinks that, you know, we can dress it up in all 304 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,200 sort of HR corporate loveliness on top of it, right? 305 00:13:53,279 --> 00:13:56,240 But the the truth is that you're mugging yourself if you think 306 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,120 that it's any different, because that's the business end of what 307 00:13:59,120 --> 00:13:59,919 we're doing. 308 00:14:00,159 --> 00:14:00,399 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 309 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:00,639 Right? 310 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,559 So we we have a we have we've tried to codify that, and I'd 311 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:05,600 love to hear your view. 312 00:14:05,759 --> 00:14:08,000 We have we've posed this question to ourselves, right? 313 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,039 There's a million things that can be external drivers to 314 00:14:11,039 --> 00:14:11,759 behavior. 315 00:14:11,919 --> 00:14:15,120 But let's try and like codify the big rock so we can do 316 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:16,799 something about something at least. 317 00:14:17,039 --> 00:14:20,000 One of those is what you've just mentioned, the incentive system, 318 00:14:20,159 --> 00:14:22,159 the reward system, the promotion system. 319 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,320 What's the business end of our organization? 320 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:25,840 I love that term you use, business end. 321 00:14:25,919 --> 00:14:26,879 This is the business end. 322 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,519 SPEAKER_03: And is that which is the business end of where you 323 00:14:29,519 --> 00:14:29,840 come? 324 00:14:30,159 --> 00:14:30,720 SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. 325 00:14:30,799 --> 00:14:33,679 And so what what we would say to our clients is if you've got 326 00:14:33,679 --> 00:14:36,639 some behaviors in your red zone behaviors that we call them red 327 00:14:36,639 --> 00:14:38,639 and green, are not helping the right outcomes. 328 00:14:38,799 --> 00:14:40,960 As long as those are incentivized, you can kiss any 329 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:42,559 idea, goodbye, they're changing. 330 00:14:42,639 --> 00:14:43,279 They're not. 331 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,320 The other thing we look at is the rituals and routines of the 332 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:46,720 organization. 333 00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:50,080 So the way meetings are run, uh, the way what's discussed in 334 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:50,639 those meetings. 335 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,200 That for example, the annual global visit in the 336 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,240 multinational, when the annual head office comes and then it's 337 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,360 a show, show and tell, a whole lot of lying, a whole lot of 338 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:00,559 presenting and faking. 339 00:15:00,639 --> 00:15:03,039 And meanwhile, they say, yeah, we value honesty. 340 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:03,600 Oh, really? 341 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,639 Well, every time that ritual comes along once a year routine, 342 00:15:06,799 --> 00:15:10,080 you demonstrate very clearly you don't value integrity or 343 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:10,480 learning. 344 00:15:10,559 --> 00:15:12,000 It's all about looking good. 345 00:15:12,159 --> 00:15:14,960 So we say we think the rituals and the routines of the 346 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,080 organization are a big deal. 347 00:15:16,159 --> 00:15:19,440 And the last one that we consider is role modelling of 348 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:19,679 power. 349 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,600 So when I look at a people above me and around me, I go, how do 350 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:24,080 they behave? 351 00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:25,200 What gets ahead in here? 352 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,759 And those three things, the role modeling of power, the routines 353 00:15:27,759 --> 00:15:31,440 and rituals, and the incentive reward systems are such powerful 354 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,360 forces that if you ignore them or you don't deal with them and 355 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,200 you think a training program with some nice internal 356 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,200 motivation is going to change anything, you're joking. 357 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,039 Like what you know, is there something we're missing? 358 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:43,759 What's your perspective? 359 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,200 What are the big ticket system items that are driving those 360 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:47,600 performance? 361 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,519 SPEAKER_03: So so for me, you're you tipped into it towards the 362 00:15:51,519 --> 00:15:51,919 end of that. 363 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:52,960 It's kind of interesting. 364 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,080 Every time you your third thing that you mentioned tends to be 365 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,000 the first thing that I would look at, right? 366 00:15:58,159 --> 00:15:58,720 SPEAKER_00: Right. 367 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,320 SPEAKER_03: And look, for whatever reason, I've been I've 368 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:07,440 been blessed with a very, you know, systemic view on things, 369 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,200 and and I tend to have to go to the the profound depths of 370 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,080 things to suss things out, as just how I've always been, 371 00:16:14,159 --> 00:16:14,399 right? 372 00:16:14,559 --> 00:16:17,279 Which is why I struggled in management consultancy because 373 00:16:17,279 --> 00:16:19,120 we were busy doing stuff at the surface. 374 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,279 But really, when we look at those those drivers, it comes 375 00:16:23,279 --> 00:16:26,080 down to the balance of power and control, right? 376 00:16:26,879 --> 00:16:32,320 Power is my capacity to generate something, and my control is how 377 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,320 I bring that into the world. 378 00:16:34,639 --> 00:16:34,960 Okay. 379 00:16:35,919 --> 00:16:42,879 Now I did um I did this piece of work when I was at Chevron where 380 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,759 at um Chevron were building these really, really 381 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,440 multi-multi-billion dollar assets, liquid natural gas 382 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:50,000 assets. 383 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,480 And um while they were being built, my job was to look at the 384 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,960 end-to-end processes of you know how how the Australian business 385 00:16:58,960 --> 00:16:59,919 unit was going to run. 386 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,720 And I sat there one day and sort of said to my manager, and then 387 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,359 we went to see the director of ops, and I went, well, we could 388 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:06,720 just map it all. 389 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:08,720 And they were like, What? 390 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,839 And I went, we should just map it all, the process map of how 391 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:15,759 the whole thing's going to work when we, in effect, get the keys 392 00:17:15,759 --> 00:17:16,720 for these assets. 393 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:18,480 And they were like, Well, that's too big. 394 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:19,359 You can't do that. 395 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,799 And I was like, Well, if you can't do that, that's a worry. 396 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:24,640 Because it's not like you're doing anything creative. 397 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,440 You're just bringing molecules up, doing stuff with them and 398 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,759 putting them on a ship and monetizing them, right? 399 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,839 And you should be striving for this to be monotonous and boring 400 00:17:33,839 --> 00:17:36,400 and repetitive, because that's the point, right? 401 00:17:36,799 --> 00:17:42,240 So I embarked on a seven-month uh journey where the director of 402 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,680 ops, you know, gave me access to all the people underneath him. 403 00:17:45,759 --> 00:17:48,640 And we and we did this enormous, you know, down to level three, 404 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,079 four end-to-end process map of mapping how the whole business 405 00:17:52,079 --> 00:17:55,039 unit from an ops perspective would work, you know, sub-sea 406 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,440 exploration, maintenance, the whole lot. 407 00:17:57,519 --> 00:18:01,599 There was like 19 swim lanes across plan, schedule, do, and 408 00:18:01,599 --> 00:18:02,160 review. 409 00:18:02,319 --> 00:18:04,240 Right, it's pretty, pretty enormous. 410 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,960 And what that demonstrated to me was that's actually how an 411 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:10,480 organization works. 412 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,240 That's actually how the organization works. 413 00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:17,359 And it was interesting because we started to identify pinch 414 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:17,920 points, right? 415 00:18:18,079 --> 00:18:20,000 That a lot of people hadn't seen. 416 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,519 But yes, I had swim lanes of you know, this is my department, 417 00:18:23,599 --> 00:18:24,720 this is your department. 418 00:18:24,799 --> 00:18:27,039 Um, but that's how it actually works. 419 00:18:27,279 --> 00:18:27,759 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 420 00:18:28,319 --> 00:18:29,680 Can you just repeat that, Bryn? 421 00:18:29,759 --> 00:18:30,960 You you said plan? 422 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,200 SPEAKER_03: It was plan, schedule, do, and then review. 423 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:36,880 Right, and then the thing went back wrap. 424 00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:37,279 Okay. 425 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,759 So, you know, how you plan five, ten, twelve years in advance, 426 00:18:41,839 --> 00:18:45,759 you know, looking at new gas fields to bring on supply to 427 00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:49,200 this facility through to schedule of who's going on an 428 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,319 island, who's not going on a rig, and is there planet, you 429 00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:55,039 know, beds and when are we going to do stuff, and then actually 430 00:18:55,039 --> 00:18:57,359 doing, you know, and shipping schedules and all this sort of 431 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:57,519 stuff. 432 00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,680 And this thing was bit like it was great. 433 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:04,000 I had to produce it on a plotter paper, uh plotter printer to get 434 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:04,799 it out right. 435 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:09,119 But the thing that the thing that um I got across in that is 436 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,920 that's how the whole thing actually actually works. 437 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,000 There's the end-to-end process map. 438 00:19:14,079 --> 00:19:18,720 Yet how do we traditionally organize workforce? 439 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,839 Well, we put them in this pyramid chart, right? 440 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:23,440 What's the pyramid chart about? 441 00:19:23,599 --> 00:19:25,839 That's about power and control, right? 442 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,799 And the further up the pyramid you have, the more power and 443 00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:31,279 control you have, and the further down it, the less you 444 00:19:31,279 --> 00:19:31,519 have. 445 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:37,920 And the reality is, is that everybody inside that pyramid 446 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:43,279 has given up power and control to come and be into the pyramid, 447 00:19:43,519 --> 00:19:43,839 right? 448 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,200 So as soon as you have in balance the power and control, 449 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,279 you know, because if if you and I meet, and I I don't try, you 450 00:19:51,279 --> 00:19:54,720 know, I stay within my power and control, my capacity to generate 451 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,119 and my control over that, right? 452 00:19:57,279 --> 00:20:00,480 If you and I stay, you know, within our own power and 453 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,559 control, right, then we can have a healthy, respectful, adult, 454 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:06,720 you know, interaction. 455 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,319 Okay, and maybe we create some stuff in our friendship around 456 00:20:10,319 --> 00:20:12,160 us to make sure that that stays in place. 457 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,440 As soon as that's imbalanced, right, there is a reaction, 458 00:20:15,599 --> 00:20:15,920 right? 459 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,160 We have a reaction to uh we have a reaction to everything that 460 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,920 changes in our environment, but we're particularly when there's 461 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,880 an imbalance of power and control, we have a reaction to 462 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:27,279 it, right? 463 00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:28,160 We have a reaction. 464 00:20:28,319 --> 00:20:30,319 Well, as soon as I force you to do something. 465 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:31,680 Okay, got it. 466 00:20:31,839 --> 00:20:32,160 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 467 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,799 So you're taking away my power and control in favor of your 468 00:20:36,799 --> 00:20:37,359 power and control. 469 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:38,720 SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's my agenda. 470 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:39,519 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, got it. 471 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,480 SPEAKER_03: And being as I've got hierarchical power, yeah, 472 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,319 hierarchical positioning, yeah, you kind of, you know, it's 473 00:20:46,319 --> 00:20:49,839 baked into this the space in between that surrounds us, 474 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:50,319 right? 475 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:50,720 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 476 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,839 SPEAKER_03: This this space that we don't see but exists all the 477 00:20:53,839 --> 00:20:56,160 time, the space in between that surrounds us. 478 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,680 So as soon as I tell you, yeah, yeah, Michael, I know you wanted 479 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,039 to have next Friday off to go and hang out with your kids, but 480 00:21:03,039 --> 00:21:07,279 no, because I need this report, you're gonna have a response to 481 00:21:07,279 --> 00:21:08,000 that, right? 482 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:08,640 Yeah. 483 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,119 And we don't deal with those responses, right? 484 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,039 They need to be discharged, right? 485 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,920 When I was in a when I was in an English boys' boarding school 486 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,079 for 11 years, like it was all contained until it wasn't. 487 00:21:22,319 --> 00:21:24,240 It got kinetic, right? 488 00:21:24,559 --> 00:21:25,920 Usually fighting. 489 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:26,400 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 490 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:27,599 SPEAKER_03: But it was discharged. 491 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,720 Now I'm not advocating fighting, obviously, right? 492 00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:31,279 Yeah. 493 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,279 Um, but they but those those that response will go somewhere, 494 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:36,799 it goes into the environment. 495 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,480 And you know, the more we stick responses into the environment, 496 00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:43,200 the more that starts to develop patterns, right? 497 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,640 And one of the most simple patterns will be your standard 498 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:47,599 drama triangle. 499 00:21:47,759 --> 00:21:50,400 So all of a sudden you will go away, you'll see me as a 500 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,480 persecutor and you as a victim. 501 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,559 All right, and then you know, maybe a friend will try and come 502 00:21:56,559 --> 00:22:00,400 and help you and try and make you feel better, but You don't 503 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,480 want to move from the victim space because that's kind of 504 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:03,759 comfortable, right? 505 00:22:04,559 --> 00:22:08,880 Now, that dynamic has now been you know dead, right? 506 00:22:09,039 --> 00:22:12,319 And it's fueled by the response that you've not dealt with to 507 00:22:12,319 --> 00:22:15,519 the fact that I've used my power and control imbalance, right? 508 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,519 Do that once, do it again, do it again, and all of a sudden that 509 00:22:19,519 --> 00:22:20,559 dynamic, right? 510 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,240 And in this instance, I'm just using the drama triangle of you 511 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,240 know, persecutor, victim, and helper, and you move people 512 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,960 around, that will start happening all around the 513 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:31,359 culture. 514 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,000 And it will start moving around and moving around and moving, 515 00:22:34,079 --> 00:22:37,039 you know, we know things like misery lights misery, and you 516 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:38,960 know, there's an in-group and an out group. 517 00:22:39,279 --> 00:22:43,279 You know, I do cultural audits, and you know, we'll have a high 518 00:22:43,279 --> 00:22:45,759 percentage of people saying that there's an in-group and an out 519 00:22:45,839 --> 00:22:46,000 group. 520 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,559 When I ask them who's in the in-group and who's in the out 521 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,799 group, they're not consistent. 522 00:22:51,039 --> 00:22:54,559 And that's that's a key point because there is no in-group and 523 00:22:54,559 --> 00:22:55,039 out group. 524 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,240 That's just what you're feeling and experiencing because you are 525 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,880 in the space that's in it around, right? 526 00:23:01,519 --> 00:23:04,400 So while we have these power and control imbalances because of 527 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,519 the way that we structure things, and remember what I said 528 00:23:07,599 --> 00:23:11,519 the engine of us is perpetually self-organizing because we're a 529 00:23:11,519 --> 00:23:12,319 living system. 530 00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:15,359 While there are power and control imbalances that will 531 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,039 create responses, and if responses are not dealt with, 532 00:23:19,279 --> 00:23:21,599 they have to be dealt with so that we can readdress the power 533 00:23:21,599 --> 00:23:22,799 and control balance, right? 534 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,160 If we don't, then they'll form destructive patterns as opposed 535 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:32,079 to generative patterns in in the way that the whole organization 536 00:23:32,079 --> 00:23:35,839 is organized in terms of its culture, its processes, its its 537 00:23:36,079 --> 00:23:38,319 workflow, and things like that, right? 538 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,200 And so, and that will just proliferate and proliferate and 539 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:42,559 proliferate and proliferate. 540 00:23:42,799 --> 00:23:46,880 And so then when you talk about you know behavioral set, which 541 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,960 is just which is the second thing, things that things that 542 00:23:51,039 --> 00:23:54,799 you know help the objectives and what have you, and things that 543 00:23:54,799 --> 00:23:56,000 don't, right? 544 00:23:56,559 --> 00:24:00,720 Well, you know, if if all this power and control is happening 545 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,599 at the biggest set, then when you come down into your smaller 546 00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:08,000 team, you will intuitively and unconsciously want to do 547 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,359 something to readdress the balance of your powerlessness in 548 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,960 one place, so you'll overextend in another, right? 549 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,720 You'll be out of control and powerless in one area, so you 550 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,279 will need to exert power and control in another. 551 00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:24,480 Which is why you might you find yourself doing things that you 552 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:25,839 wouldn't normally do, right? 553 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,559 SPEAKER_01: You'd end up doing the exact behavior that you hate 554 00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:29,359 having done to you. 555 00:24:29,599 --> 00:24:30,160 Correct. 556 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:31,279 Correct. 557 00:24:31,599 --> 00:24:34,079 SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, and then you're showing up in meetings 558 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,359 and you're doing, you know, your best intent might be, yeah, I 559 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:38,880 really want to work with everyone, this, that, and the 560 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:39,119 other. 561 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,960 But then some reason you you don't quite, and you've got this 562 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,599 resentment or this animosity, right? 563 00:24:46,079 --> 00:24:47,039 That's happening. 564 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,319 And so, you know, and we've got to remember that we're talking 565 00:24:50,319 --> 00:24:51,680 about behaviors, right? 566 00:24:52,079 --> 00:24:56,480 Behaviors and and your top level of thinking is is is that that's 567 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:57,759 the top level of consciousness. 568 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,200 But that's it represents only 10% of who we are and how we 569 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:01,359 work. 570 00:25:01,519 --> 00:25:04,799 You know, this deeper thinking, your emotional zone, your 571 00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:08,559 beliefs, and your core nature that all sit underneath that, 572 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:09,039 right? 573 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,720 And that's where all of this response to the power and 574 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,400 control imbalances is happening. 575 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,319 And so we create these maladaptive, maladaptive 576 00:25:18,319 --> 00:25:21,920 response patterns to power and control imbalances, right? 577 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,799 And then we just keep doing them, right? 578 00:25:25,039 --> 00:25:28,960 And the daft thing is, is a lot of the reward systems within 579 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,559 organizations will reward those maladaptive patterns, right? 580 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,720 And so then when you get promoted and get pay rises for 581 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,160 doing these maladaptive. 582 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,519 SPEAKER_01: Can you just for our audience, I understand what 583 00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:44,480 you're saying, but just just define what you mean by 584 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,799 maladaptive uh maladaptive, you don't mind. 585 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,279 SPEAKER_03: I'll give you a really simple one, okay? 586 00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:53,839 Is most of us would have gone to school in the early part of 587 00:25:53,839 --> 00:25:55,119 going to school, right? 588 00:25:55,279 --> 00:25:58,480 And we would have turned up all of it, all of ourselves, right? 589 00:25:58,559 --> 00:26:00,960 And then we would have stood in the playground and said to our 590 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,680 friends, yeah, but I really like this, right? 591 00:26:04,079 --> 00:26:08,799 And then more of your friends will look and go, Nah, you know, 592 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,559 that's a bit sissy, or that's that's this, or that's I don't 593 00:26:12,559 --> 00:26:13,200 know, whatever. 594 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:14,559 Put it down, right? 595 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,279 And in that moment, right, because the peer pressure's 596 00:26:19,279 --> 00:26:22,000 there and and and what have you, and you were only young and you 597 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,039 didn't have all the tools to deal with it, you put that part 598 00:26:25,039 --> 00:26:27,440 of you to one side, right? 599 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:36,400 So you have reorganized by separating and isolating a part 600 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:37,920 of yourself out, right? 601 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,640 Compartmentalizing, putting bits to one side. 602 00:26:40,799 --> 00:26:44,559 That is maladaptive behavior because the way we truly adapt 603 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,240 is allowing the whole of us to deal with the risk to deal with 604 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:49,519 the situation, you know. 605 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,880 As adults now, we're all pretty fine in getting into a 606 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,960 discussion and going, well, I really like this, and people go, 607 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:55,759 I don't really like that. 608 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,200 You go, well, fair enough. 609 00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:58,640 You know, that's still me. 610 00:26:58,799 --> 00:27:02,000 We get, but at the same time, you know, there's there's a big 611 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,119 I mean you think about going to work most days, most people 612 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:06,960 can't bring all of themselves. 613 00:27:07,759 --> 00:27:11,039 Bring weekend, you know, then you can't bring weekend Bryn 614 00:27:11,039 --> 00:27:12,480 into Monday Bryn, right? 615 00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:15,359 SPEAKER_00: Can can I can I can I test an example with you? 616 00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:15,680 SPEAKER_01: Yes. 617 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,000 A really, really simplistic example. 618 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,200 Like uh from a client quote, you know, whenever I felt sad or I 619 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:22,720 felt distressed, my mother fed me. 620 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,319 And she gave me food, right? 621 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,200 So it would be, okay, so I've now learned a maladaptive 622 00:27:27,279 --> 00:27:29,440 pattern, as instead of just breathing and feeling my 623 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,400 feelings and processing them, I just numb them and eat, and then 624 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:33,599 that stays with me for whole life. 625 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,200 It's a malad I'm adapting to my mother's needs, right? 626 00:27:37,279 --> 00:27:39,440 For her not dealing with her stuff, but now I've got a 627 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,839 pattern sitting in me that's no longer serving me. 628 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,400 SPEAKER_03: Well, it's been fully maladaptive. 629 00:27:46,559 --> 00:27:46,799 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 630 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,359 SPEAKER_03: And sometimes our protective patterns, they work 631 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,279 for a period of time, but yes. 632 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,880 We're not very good at realizing when something has run its 633 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:55,279 course. 634 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,839 We like to hold onto things to the nth degree. 635 00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:58,400 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 636 00:27:58,559 --> 00:28:01,279 I love the expression from the Buddha where he said, sometimes 637 00:28:01,279 --> 00:28:03,119 it takes a raft to cross a river. 638 00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:05,680 Once you've crossed it, don't pick up the raft and put it on 639 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:06,160 your back. 640 00:28:06,319 --> 00:28:06,799 Let it go. 641 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:07,279 Yeah. 642 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:08,480 SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 643 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,440 SPEAKER_01: So we've got Can I bring you back to you? 644 00:28:13,519 --> 00:28:15,039 We were talking about the maladaptive pattern. 645 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,960 So now we we can't stand our boss's behavior, but now we're 646 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:19,599 becoming our boss. 647 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,599 We're getting rewarded for the very behavior we don't like, but 648 00:28:23,599 --> 00:28:26,720 we know that's what we have to do to get and before you know 649 00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:29,599 it, we've become the asshole we couldn't stand, but we don't 650 00:28:29,599 --> 00:28:32,880 even see it because we've numbed ourselves so much to it, we're 651 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,359 not even looking and we don't want to look. 652 00:28:35,839 --> 00:28:39,200 And then the and then the other question I've got is when you 653 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,599 talked about imbalance of power and control. 654 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:48,640 So if if I'm a senior leader and I don't want to press into my 655 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,480 system maladaptive patterns, right? 656 00:28:50,559 --> 00:28:52,079 I don't want that to happen. 657 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,559 But I still need to make decisions, I still need to make 658 00:28:54,559 --> 00:28:56,240 captain's calls at times. 659 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,440 How would I ensure that I don't drift into that robbing of 660 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,720 people of power and control, but I'm still doing my job and 661 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,839 making the calls I need to do, holding people to account for 662 00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:10,640 maladaptive behaviors, for example, and role modeling good 663 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:11,119 behaviors. 664 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:12,960 What's your what's your view on that? 665 00:29:13,039 --> 00:29:14,000 What's your guideline on that? 666 00:29:14,319 --> 00:29:18,799 SPEAKER_03: Yeah, look, so on one level, like if you are the 667 00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:21,440 individual leader, even if you're a senior leader and you 668 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,400 want to do this, the challenge is that you most likely be 669 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,920 surrounded by an all-pervasive culture that doesn't want to do 670 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:28,640 that, right? 671 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:29,599 Yes. 672 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,400 Um so there's your challenge right away. 673 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:33,119 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 674 00:29:33,359 --> 00:29:34,000 unknown: Yeah. 675 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,960 SPEAKER_03: One of the things that one of the things that 676 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,240 we're not getting when it comes to cultural transformation is 677 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,519 that by removing some of the patterns from from the space in 678 00:29:43,519 --> 00:29:47,440 between the culture that's been lodged over time, and this idea 679 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,559 that you you can just knock out one CEO and put another one in 680 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,000 and everything will be different is absolute folly. 681 00:29:54,319 --> 00:29:57,440 Because those patterns will stay there, you know, and some of 682 00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,440 them might be 20, 30 years old, right? 683 00:29:59,519 --> 00:30:01,759 And they're just showing up in different ways in different 684 00:30:01,759 --> 00:30:02,000 ways. 685 00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:04,160 But if you boil down, they're still there. 686 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,880 So one of the most cost and time effective ways of bringing about 687 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,680 transformation within an organization is is to just clean 688 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,599 up the cultural commons, right? 689 00:30:14,079 --> 00:30:15,839 But back to what you were saying. 690 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,480 SPEAKER_01: What does that mean, clean up the cultural commons? 691 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,839 SPEAKER_03: So look, we're all we're all good at nowadays that 692 00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:27,920 when we drive down the road eating a Snickers bar, we won't 693 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,480 throw the wrapper out the window, will we? 694 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,079 You know, because we're all like become aware of the physical 695 00:30:34,079 --> 00:30:36,559 commons and we don't want rubbish and litter. 696 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,880 Yet when you get to the cultural, let's almost call it 697 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,920 the collective emotional commons, we're just chucking 698 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,000 shit in it left, right, and centre, right? 699 00:30:46,319 --> 00:30:49,200 And that shit has consequences, and all the stuff we've thrown 700 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,440 in it, you know, every time I tell you you can't have Friday 701 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,759 off to hang out with your with your son, you know, type things, 702 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,440 every one of those decisions, and those decisions are not just 703 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,880 one-on-one, they're one on everyone, and everyone will have 704 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,480 an emotional, you know, have a response of some description. 705 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,240 All of that stuff goes somewhere and it goes into the cultural, 706 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,480 it goes into the cultural commons, right? 707 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,480 And if those, you know, if you want to, if you want to call it 708 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,319 uh, yeah, it's the collective unconscious of the whole 709 00:31:22,319 --> 00:31:23,279 organization, right? 710 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,960 And it is it exists, whether you think I'm talking will or not, 711 00:31:27,119 --> 00:31:27,440 right? 712 00:31:27,599 --> 00:31:30,720 And unless you go into there and clean up the patterns, they'll 713 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,519 just proliferate and go round and round and round, right? 714 00:31:34,079 --> 00:31:40,720 And you know, for me, for me, what does an or what does a uh a 715 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:45,440 leader and an organization, what is the structure of it that you 716 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:50,559 know that we need today, but isn't here, so for tomorrow, 717 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,160 it's is a leader that understands how they themselves 718 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,160 are a living entity, a living system, so that the more you can 719 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,720 see into the complexity of yourself, the more you can see 720 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,119 into the complexity of the system that you have a certain 721 00:32:03,119 --> 00:32:04,960 level of responsibility for. 722 00:32:05,359 --> 00:32:09,680 And then also is recognizing that when you have a group of 723 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:14,400 people like that who can operate at a high level of integrity, 724 00:32:14,559 --> 00:32:17,680 you know, because one of the things you talked about was the 725 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:22,640 ability to be agile, so reorganize, you know. 726 00:32:23,039 --> 00:32:29,119 Um the challenge is that some of the creative emerging solutions, 727 00:32:29,359 --> 00:32:31,039 so I guess this is another thing. 728 00:32:31,119 --> 00:32:33,519 You talked about what are the outcomes right at the start. 729 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,039 Well, often you don't actually know what the real outcome is. 730 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,839 You have to create space for it to emerge. 731 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:40,799 Right? 732 00:32:41,119 --> 00:32:44,079 To define an outcome right at the start of an endeavor, you 733 00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:47,039 know something's wrong and you know that this is the direction 734 00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:50,799 you need to go, but to specify it means that you're just going 735 00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:52,880 to probably repeat what you've got. 736 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,920 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a funny one for us because we we talk 737 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,680 about three outcomes that a leader is supposed to produce. 738 00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:03,039 And we can easily define performance outcomes in dollar 739 00:33:03,039 --> 00:33:05,680 figures or market share or whatever, customer NDS. 740 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,599 Pretty easy to define happy workplace in terms of engagement 741 00:33:09,599 --> 00:33:12,559 scores, workplace psych safety assessments. 742 00:33:12,799 --> 00:33:13,039 Yeah, yeah. 743 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,240 The hardest one we've come to realize is that the second one, 744 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,759 agility in learning outcomes, is not an outcome, it's a process. 745 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,039 And there is never an outcome, but it's something so 746 00:33:23,039 --> 00:33:27,920 fundamentally important that it's worth describing it as we 747 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,880 need to have this thing that where we can reinvent, relearn. 748 00:33:31,279 --> 00:33:35,759 SPEAKER_03: I would almost say that it is a how the 749 00:33:35,759 --> 00:33:39,839 organization as an entity and everyone within it, the 750 00:33:39,839 --> 00:33:44,400 organization as an entity is able to cycle through its sense 751 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,960 of being, doing, and then I refer to it as non-being, which 752 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,160 is where you shed the things that you don't need now so that 753 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,000 you can continually refine. 754 00:33:54,559 --> 00:33:56,720 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we have a we have an expression for it. 755 00:33:56,799 --> 00:34:00,240 It's what we call harvesting, processing, and then and then 756 00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:02,160 implementing, and then harvesting. 757 00:34:02,319 --> 00:34:04,079 Harvesting, understanding what's going on. 758 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,719 Yeah, processing what's going on, then re-experimenting to try 759 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,960 fix that or evolve that, and then re-harvesting what's going 760 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:13,280 on again. 761 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,920 We think of it like as a cycle, just like you're describing. 762 00:34:16,079 --> 00:34:18,800 SPEAKER_03: It's like I guess the only nuance I would add is 763 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,159 that if if you had a if you have a route to your sense of being, 764 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,960 the organization has a root of sense to its being and it 765 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,199 understands its nature, place, and purpose in the space that it 766 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:36,559 operates, then its doing becomes clear, and the shedding of 767 00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:39,440 things, you know, because like startups do things that they 768 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,840 don't need to do when they get to a certain place, right? 769 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,079 And you know, an organization will do something like now to 770 00:34:46,079 --> 00:34:49,199 accommodate for a rising fuel price, right? 771 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:54,480 Which they may not need to do if the fuel price comes down again, 772 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:55,039 right? 773 00:34:55,519 --> 00:34:56,960 SPEAKER_00: Correct, yeah. 774 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,320 SPEAKER_03: Most of us can remember what life was like 775 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,159 flying on a plane before September 11 and afterwards. 776 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:05,280 It's never been the same. 777 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,760 That's because we've not let go of anything since. 778 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,920 We just keep adding and adding and adding and adding. 779 00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:12,079 So there has to be an active letting go. 780 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:13,599 So there is that. 781 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,559 I feel like we were on a loop before that we've not found. 782 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,519 SPEAKER_01: It's fascinating what you're saying because what 783 00:35:19,679 --> 00:35:23,679 we found in the clients that are most successful at reinventing 784 00:35:23,679 --> 00:35:26,639 and being agile is their first order of business is dropping 785 00:35:26,639 --> 00:35:27,119 stuff away. 786 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:28,239 Oh, because they do that. 787 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,920 They get so busy into activity and the illusion of progress 788 00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:35,360 that like um our best case study we've ever done is they went 789 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,559 from 22 priorities to seven, and then they did proper discipline 790 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,280 learning cycles within those seven that they weren't doing 791 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:41,679 before. 792 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,519 But it like took a whole bunch of FOMO and you know, dealing 793 00:35:45,519 --> 00:35:46,079 with FOMO. 794 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,440 SPEAKER_03: So I want to bring you I know where we were before, 795 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,360 it was that the leaders of tomorrow will be able to deal 796 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,199 with that letting go, right? 797 00:35:55,679 --> 00:36:00,320 Because they know that come what may, you know, what what today 798 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,840 is a sacred cow may tomorrow be in the bin. 799 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:04,960 Right? 800 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:10,719 And if you're not if you're not rooted in yourself and your 801 00:36:11,039 --> 00:36:13,679 you're able to understand what this means for you as a living 802 00:36:13,679 --> 00:36:16,559 system, and therefore the living system that you work in, because 803 00:36:16,559 --> 00:36:18,639 if you think that you can just work in the living system that 804 00:36:18,639 --> 00:36:22,079 you work in and ignore the one that you are, you're mugging 805 00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:23,280 yourself, right? 806 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,480 And so when it comes to the letting go of these sacred cows, 807 00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:31,519 you'll flinch and you won't do it, you won't do what is 808 00:36:31,519 --> 00:36:32,159 required. 809 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,159 And so, therefore, you close the space from which the real 810 00:36:36,159 --> 00:36:38,159 solution can emerge, right? 811 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,760 And and and you know, there's a lot of things that we don't 812 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:42,480 know, right? 813 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:47,360 And yet, in a pyramid of power, it requires us to pretend like 814 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:48,400 we know everything. 815 00:36:48,639 --> 00:36:51,679 But the reality is that we have to have a space for stuff that 816 00:36:51,679 --> 00:36:55,280 we don't know, and we have to allow new solutions to emerge. 817 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,599 And if we can't do that because of our own baggage, because of 818 00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:02,960 institutional baggage, then we're just gonna go around and 819 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,760 round repeating the circle, repeating the patterns that 820 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,039 you've done, and a new thing will not be able to emerge 821 00:37:09,039 --> 00:37:09,760 within it. 822 00:37:10,159 --> 00:37:10,719 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 823 00:37:11,199 --> 00:37:12,719 That's it makes so much sense. 824 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,599 So I want to bring you back to um I as much as I would love to 825 00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:18,000 continue. 826 00:37:18,079 --> 00:37:21,360 I mean, there's a whole I I have a uh 40-year mindfulness 827 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,400 practice, and the whole the whole premise is of the deeper 828 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,599 mindfulness practice is tracking change and knowing instability 829 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,639 and becoming at peace with change and instability. 830 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,920 Because when that happens then the nervous system stops holding 831 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,000 on, and when the clinging happens, freedom arises. 832 00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:38,559 SPEAKER_03: When you become efficient at real it's 833 00:37:38,559 --> 00:37:39,280 self-organizing. 834 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:40,239 SPEAKER_01: Correct. 835 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,719 And then you're present in a you're in the present and you're 836 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,719 in touch with reality, not out of touch with reality. 837 00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:46,719 SPEAKER_03: The central organizing principle becomes 838 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:47,360 life itself. 839 00:37:48,159 --> 00:37:49,280 SPEAKER_01: Yes, very much so. 840 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:50,719 Very aligned on that. 841 00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:53,039 I'm just curious to bring it back full circle. 842 00:37:53,119 --> 00:37:54,639 You said psychology is failing. 843 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:55,039 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 844 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:56,000 SPEAKER_01: Right. 845 00:37:56,159 --> 00:37:58,559 And you've talked you talked about the you know it it it 846 00:37:58,559 --> 00:38:00,719 dices it up into the sum of pieces, right? 847 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:01,119 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 848 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,800 SPEAKER_01: Is what you're saying, if I'm working in an 849 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,599 organization and I do a training program on delegating 850 00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:10,960 effectively, for example, but I I ignore the whole system and 851 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,599 the and the power controls and all the things around me. 852 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:13,920 Yeah. 853 00:38:14,159 --> 00:38:18,000 That that that training program or that run by some psychologist 854 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,920 on whatever they're doing, is doomed to failure because the 855 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,719 power system will always trump that. 856 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:27,599 SPEAKER_03: Well, there'll be there'll be two aspects that 857 00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:28,159 trump it. 858 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,920 One is the yeah, the power and control imbalance that's 859 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:39,840 occurring um in the culture, but also there is the response to 860 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,719 the power and control imbalance, not probably just in this 861 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,360 organization, but throughout life, of the person that's 862 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,039 sitting in the in the training session, right? 863 00:38:49,199 --> 00:38:53,599 So to delegate means that, you know, I I've got to cede a bit 864 00:38:53,599 --> 00:38:56,480 of power and control over a certain thing, or I've got to 865 00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,000 ask you to do something that you might not like what you want to 866 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,679 do, so it might get a little bit of conflict in there or 867 00:39:03,679 --> 00:39:04,320 something. 868 00:39:04,559 --> 00:39:08,400 And generally, because a bulk of us have been on the wrong end of 869 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,679 power and control imbalances, we're really good at being small 870 00:39:11,679 --> 00:39:13,440 and being quiet, right? 871 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,599 We don't take up the space that you know, we don't take up all 872 00:39:17,599 --> 00:39:18,639 of our space, right? 873 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:19,760 We give it away. 874 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,719 It's it's easier for me to give you a bit of space and make you 875 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,719 feel happy and people please you, because I might feel bad, I 876 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,599 might feel guilty about asking you what I really, really want 877 00:39:31,599 --> 00:39:32,960 you to do, right? 878 00:39:33,119 --> 00:39:37,440 And working around you and pandering around you, than it is 879 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,960 for me to just turn up and go, Right, Michael, I'm gonna 880 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:42,400 delegate this thing for you. 881 00:39:42,559 --> 00:39:43,199 Yeah. 882 00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:47,760 And so it's not just what goes on outside, it's how those 883 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,119 maladaptive behaviors have manifested themselves within the 884 00:39:51,119 --> 00:39:51,840 individual. 885 00:39:52,079 --> 00:39:52,480 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 886 00:39:52,639 --> 00:39:54,800 SPEAKER_03: You know, most people don't know most people 887 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,039 don't like dealing with a bit of difference and conflict. 888 00:39:57,119 --> 00:39:59,199 They don't want to go anywhere near it, and they feel bad. 889 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,639 And so they'd rather be, you know, quiet and shrink. 890 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,280 Like you said earlier on, when you know, we're all talking 891 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:10,000 about honesty, but then but then the um you know the regional 892 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,039 director turns up and now we're saying all the things that we 893 00:40:13,039 --> 00:40:13,599 need to say. 894 00:40:13,679 --> 00:40:17,760 And that that's another form of being quiet and being small, 895 00:40:18,079 --> 00:40:18,400 right? 896 00:40:19,119 --> 00:40:23,440 And so if if that pattern in the individual as well as the 897 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,679 pattern in the culture are both not addressed, all you're doing 898 00:40:27,679 --> 00:40:31,920 is just a bit of tick-box behavioural sheep dipping to 899 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,400 say, oh, we we know delegating. 900 00:40:34,559 --> 00:40:34,800 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 901 00:40:35,039 --> 00:40:35,679 SPEAKER_03: Right on. 902 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:36,239 Yeah, yeah. 903 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,400 You know, and you know, even if somebody comes from that 904 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,079 training session and you've not addressed either end of that and 905 00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:47,440 they choose to do it, it'll be from a very mechanical point of 906 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:52,079 view as opposed to doing it exactly as it should. 907 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:57,840 And you know, it's a bit I didn't get to earlier on is that 908 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:05,920 you know, if if we can start to organize organizations around 909 00:41:06,559 --> 00:41:11,360 that bigger, bigger workflow, it amazes it amazed me the amount 910 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,639 of clients that I have and had where I say, all right, show me 911 00:41:14,639 --> 00:41:16,639 the process map of how the whole thing works. 912 00:41:17,519 --> 00:41:18,239 I don't know. 913 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,639 It's like, how do you know how it works? 914 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,880 How do you onboard new people? 915 00:41:23,039 --> 00:41:26,719 You know, really we want to be getting to a place where that is 916 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:28,960 that is the central guiding part, right? 917 00:41:29,039 --> 00:41:31,360 This is how we do what we do, right? 918 00:41:31,679 --> 00:41:35,679 Yeah, and so I can see my part in it that I'm responsible for, 919 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,440 but I also understand how my part plays a role in the whole 920 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:39,840 thing. 921 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,880 Yeah, so I have ownership in both parts, right? 922 00:41:43,519 --> 00:41:46,800 So then when we talk about delegating, then it's like, 923 00:41:47,039 --> 00:41:50,239 well, I can talk to you about delegating in the context of the 924 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,159 overall workflow of the thing. 925 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,079 And then when it comes to making serious decisions as an 926 00:41:56,079 --> 00:42:00,079 organization, it may well be that the guy that traditionally 927 00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:03,199 would be at the top of the pyramid is not the best person 928 00:42:03,199 --> 00:42:06,480 to make that decision because there's some because the issue 929 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,920 is actually here in the workflow, and we should bring in 930 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,039 all the minds that have a good idea of what's happening here. 931 00:42:13,199 --> 00:42:19,280 Yeah, connection with everybody else to make sure the whole 932 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,119 thing doesn't fall to be. 933 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,079 SPEAKER_01: So when I'm hearing you say, and I'm like it's kind 934 00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:28,000 of interesting, I love learning, is that when we say the drivers 935 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,039 of behavior, the external drivers, not the internal, not 936 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:35,199 adaptive from mum, dad, culture, society, you know, was listening 937 00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:36,320 to an amazing conscious point. 938 00:42:37,199 --> 00:42:39,760 SPEAKER_03: Sorry to butt in, Mike, that all comes to work, 939 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:40,239 right? 940 00:42:40,559 --> 00:42:41,039 Absolutely. 941 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,960 This idea that that we get to the front door, wipe our feet, 942 00:42:45,119 --> 00:42:49,840 and you know, and it's important to add, vice versa. 943 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:55,280 So the maladaptive patterns that I develop because I spend 40 944 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:59,840 plus hours a week in the purview of your organization, I also 945 00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:03,920 take home to my wife, I put on my kids, and I put on my 946 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:05,920 friends, and I take into my community. 947 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:07,199 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally. 948 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:08,719 I'm totally aligned with you on that. 949 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,480 What's interesting to me is that, and the learning for me 950 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:16,320 today is that we tend to think of it as the dr what's external 951 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,000 to me and not all my own baggages. 952 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,800 As this conscious parenting speak beautifully said, she 953 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,280 said, what's conditioned into you before you're even born? 954 00:43:23,679 --> 00:43:25,679 It's like, wow, that's an interesting question, right? 955 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,320 All the expectations, you're supposed to make your parents 956 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,760 happy, you're supposed to make their insecurities go away, 957 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:32,960 you're blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 958 00:43:33,199 --> 00:43:35,519 So much condition, maladaptive conditioning. 959 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,800 But what I'm interested is, what I really found useful in this 960 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:40,800 chat is you also need to look at the workflow. 961 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,679 I love how you've talked about the workflow, not the 962 00:43:43,679 --> 00:43:47,760 hierarchical picture, but the actual flow of how we get things 963 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:48,400 delivered. 964 00:43:48,559 --> 00:43:52,559 Because it's for me on a very simplistic level, I noticed the 965 00:43:52,559 --> 00:43:54,800 other day that what is my workflow? 966 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,960 My workflow typically is a talk, then someone asks for a 967 00:43:58,960 --> 00:43:59,679 proposal. 968 00:44:00,159 --> 00:44:03,519 And then I do end up spending an inordinate amount of time on the 969 00:44:03,519 --> 00:44:03,840 proposal. 970 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,599 That then try you know on and on and on. 971 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,639 And it was only when I looked at the flow that I went, that 972 00:44:08,639 --> 00:44:10,320 proposal process is ridiculous. 973 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:10,960 Yes. 974 00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:12,480 It's just outrageous. 975 00:44:12,559 --> 00:44:15,440 Like we need to get AI involved in there and streamline things. 976 00:44:15,679 --> 00:44:17,280 SPEAKER_03: Because then you can do really cool things. 977 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,559 When you understand the flow, then you can ask then you can 978 00:44:20,559 --> 00:44:23,760 understand the rhythm that moves through the flow. 979 00:44:24,079 --> 00:44:24,400 Right? 980 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,280 Because that that's like even more important, but you'll never 981 00:44:29,599 --> 00:44:33,840 get to understand the rhythm of what moves through you, through 982 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,840 your organization, if you don't understand the actual flow. 983 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:43,119 Then it explains why why is it we keep having these problems 984 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:44,559 like every six months? 985 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,199 It's because there's a rhythm to it. 986 00:44:47,519 --> 00:44:48,159 Beautiful. 987 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,519 SPEAKER_01: So if you were just a simple not simple is the wrong 988 00:44:51,519 --> 00:44:53,360 word, if you ran a small business and you were listening 989 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,119 to this, you weren't in a big corporation, and and and and you 990 00:44:57,119 --> 00:44:59,440 said, look, I can't afford these guys anyway, and that I was 991 00:44:59,519 --> 00:45:00,639 speaking on this podcast. 992 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,280 SPEAKER_03: And I want to just map-I'm not as expensive as you, 993 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:04,079 probably. 994 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,119 SPEAKER_01: I want to just I don't want to just map the flow 995 00:45:07,119 --> 00:45:07,920 of my organization. 996 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,800 If we don't mind finishing off with this, how how is it just 997 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,079 simply going, okay, at the beginning of the process how 998 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:16,880 would I help myself? 999 00:45:17,039 --> 00:45:19,760 Just quickly go, let me just map my little businesses process. 1000 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,119 SPEAKER_03: Right, I'll give you a super quick, simple way to do 1001 00:45:23,119 --> 00:45:23,840 it, right? 1002 00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:24,719 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 1003 00:45:25,599 --> 00:45:30,559 SPEAKER_03: Is is um you go and buy a really bright coloured, I 1004 00:45:30,559 --> 00:45:33,039 don't know, let's arbitrarily say football. 1005 00:45:33,679 --> 00:45:34,320 Right? 1006 00:45:35,199 --> 00:45:39,119 And you go and work out who's the first person who needs to 1007 00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:39,920 hold it. 1008 00:45:40,639 --> 00:45:41,039 SPEAKER_02: Right. 1009 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,159 SPEAKER_03: And then ask that person where they think it goes 1010 00:45:44,159 --> 00:45:47,599 after them, and then after them, and then after them. 1011 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:52,159 And then wherever it goes, on a big piece of paper, right? 1012 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,079 Just go, just you know, write, put a post-it note and goes, 1013 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,039 Well, it started off with Dave and Dave does this, and then he 1014 00:45:59,039 --> 00:46:02,639 handed it to Sharon and she does this, and then she handed it to 1015 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,159 say you've got these post-it notes, right? 1016 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,320 So you just watch where the ball goes, and then you, you know, on 1017 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,760 the post-it note, who and what they do, and then where did it 1018 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:14,000 go? 1019 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:14,559 SPEAKER_02: Right. 1020 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,760 SPEAKER_03: You know, what what you know when the ball moved 1021 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,599 from one place to the other, how how has it ch in theory changed? 1022 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:26,480 You know, what did Dave do it do to it so that it was different 1023 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,400 when he handed it to Sharon, right? 1024 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,239 Arbitrarily, right? 1025 00:46:30,559 --> 00:46:34,960 And then you write that up on a you know, a big piece of paper 1026 00:46:35,039 --> 00:46:38,320 and you put post-it notes on it of where you're gone, and then 1027 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,360 when you finish that exercise, you go and find a big table, you 1028 00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,159 roll it out, and then you get everybody to look at it and go, 1029 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:45,599 Is this what really happens? 1030 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:46,800 And they'll go, Yeah. 1031 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,639 And then you say, Where is it where is it sticking? 1032 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,000 What can we do? 1033 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:53,599 And get everybody involved. 1034 00:46:53,679 --> 00:46:56,400 And they might stick new post-it notes in or move the post-it 1035 00:46:56,559 --> 00:46:57,679 notes around. 1036 00:46:58,079 --> 00:47:01,360 The key thing is you have everybody involved in the hole. 1037 00:47:01,599 --> 00:47:02,000 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 1038 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:02,559 SPEAKER_03: Right? 1039 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,760 And here's the thing: don't just go that way with it, go 1040 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:07,280 backwards with it as well. 1041 00:47:08,079 --> 00:47:08,400 SPEAKER_01: Okay. 1042 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,239 So this could be something as simple. 1043 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:14,480 I mean the most simple system is final is traffic funnel 1044 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:15,199 conversion, right? 1045 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:16,320 That's a classic process. 1046 00:47:17,119 --> 00:47:19,519 How and where do we get our traffic, where it's supposed to 1047 00:47:19,519 --> 00:47:19,679 go? 1048 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,239 How does it I mean that's what the marketing guys have 1049 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:23,119 typically got that pretty well? 1050 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,440 SPEAKER_03: Oh gosh, yeah, saturated everything, yeah. 1051 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:26,559 Yeah. 1052 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:27,119 SPEAKER_01: Okay. 1053 00:47:27,599 --> 00:47:27,760 SPEAKER_03: Yeah. 1054 00:47:28,079 --> 00:47:30,800 SPEAKER_01: And what would your advice be, just to finish this 1055 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,559 podcast off, what would your advice be to that a leader is 1056 00:47:34,639 --> 00:47:37,360 listening to this who's stuck in a maladaptive system, they're 1057 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,079 kind of recognizing what we call red zone behaviors, is what you 1058 00:47:40,079 --> 00:47:41,119 call maladaptive. 1059 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:41,599 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 1060 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:45,280 SPEAKER_01: What can they do? 1061 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:46,880 What would your advice to them be? 1062 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,400 Aside from leave, but like don't tell them to leave, tell them to 1063 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:51,440 do something constructive. 1064 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,639 SPEAKER_03: Um well, no, it's somewhere in between the two, 1065 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:55,119 right? 1066 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,480 It's if you are listening to this and you've suddenly gone, 1067 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:03,840 shit, I am surrounded by a lot of maladaptive things going on. 1068 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,760 Then the next thing is, is um what I want you to, you know, 1069 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,559 that's a brave step to acknowledge that this is 1070 00:48:10,559 --> 00:48:11,199 occurring. 1071 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:17,199 The next part of the brave step is then start to write down how 1072 00:48:17,199 --> 00:48:21,599 is that impacting you on your daily life, and how how is that 1073 00:48:21,599 --> 00:48:25,840 impacting those people who are most important to you, right? 1074 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,000 Because one of the things that we're really good at is going, 1075 00:48:30,639 --> 00:48:33,119 oh shit, this is this is me. 1076 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,920 And then when it comes to understanding the impact of 1077 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,320 things, we go, oh, I'm not going anywhere near that, right? 1078 00:48:39,119 --> 00:48:41,679 And that's one of the key reasons of how we keep trucking 1079 00:48:41,679 --> 00:48:43,599 on and trucking on and trucking on, right? 1080 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,119 You know, everything's happening inside of you, everything's 1081 00:48:47,119 --> 00:48:48,719 happening within your experience. 1082 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,920 You know, all the workshops and work I do, you know, you won't 1083 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,679 find me with tons of PowerPoints presenting things outside of 1084 00:48:55,679 --> 00:48:56,000 people. 1085 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,280 I help people to understand things how it's all happening 1086 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,679 within them, because that's where the experience is 1087 00:49:01,679 --> 00:49:04,480 happening, and that's where you need to explore, right? 1088 00:49:05,199 --> 00:49:09,440 So you need to explore what is the actual real, real impact of 1089 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,519 what you've just noticed on you, how you're doing life, how 1090 00:49:13,519 --> 00:49:17,599 you're doing work, how you're going home from work, how you're 1091 00:49:17,599 --> 00:49:19,199 impacting those around you. 1092 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,519 And you know, it's a very important step because from 1093 00:49:23,519 --> 00:49:26,559 there you understand really, really where you've got yourself 1094 00:49:26,559 --> 00:49:26,880 to. 1095 00:49:27,519 --> 00:49:31,280 And then from there, the next kind of questions are can, you 1096 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,320 know, if you access your deepest knowing, right? 1097 00:49:34,559 --> 00:49:37,280 And people say to me, Well, what do you mean by your deepest 1098 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:37,760 knowing? 1099 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,039 And I usually ask people things like, you know, people come to 1100 00:49:41,039 --> 00:49:42,880 me and they say, Oh, this is happening, this is happening, 1101 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,039 this is happening, and she said, and he said, and this, that, the 1102 00:49:45,039 --> 00:49:45,199 other. 1103 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,559 And my simple question is, is are you surprised by all of 1104 00:49:48,559 --> 00:49:48,800 this? 1105 00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,039 And that takes people straight to their deepest knowing. 1106 00:49:51,199 --> 00:49:53,760 Because usually the answer is, no, I'm not. 1107 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:54,400 Right? 1108 00:49:54,639 --> 00:49:56,960 So by accessing your deepest knowing, the next question you 1109 00:49:57,039 --> 00:50:00,159 ask yourself is, can you do anything about all of that? 1110 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:01,599 Will it change? 1111 00:50:02,159 --> 00:50:05,599 Because if the answer is no, the next thing is, is are you happy 1112 00:50:05,599 --> 00:50:09,119 to carry this impact and consequence in your life? 1113 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,039 If the answer is yes, you can do something about it, that's 1114 00:50:13,039 --> 00:50:13,599 awesome. 1115 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:18,159 But if you can't, and you now understand the full impact that 1116 00:50:18,159 --> 00:50:20,639 it's having on you and your life, you now have to make a 1117 00:50:20,639 --> 00:50:21,280 conscious decision. 1118 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,000 Where before you were making an unconscious decision. 1119 00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,199 So I've made things really, really difficult for you now. 1120 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,079 But at least you'll get to a very honest, honest place. 1121 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,199 Now, whether that includes leaving or not, I don't know. 1122 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:37,119 Because it's very, you know, you see, the problem is, is people 1123 00:50:37,119 --> 00:50:39,679 will get to a place where they go, Oh, I've just had enough of 1124 00:50:39,679 --> 00:50:40,239 this, right? 1125 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,519 And what that really means is that their emotional load has 1126 00:50:43,519 --> 00:50:45,119 become a capacity, right? 1127 00:50:45,199 --> 00:50:47,519 They're full of resentment, they're full of suppressed 1128 00:50:47,519 --> 00:50:50,559 anger, they're carrying a shit ton of guilt, and most of it's 1129 00:50:50,559 --> 00:50:53,199 tipping into shame because they haven't dealt with it, right? 1130 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,920 And then they'll say, Right, I've had enough of this, I'm 1131 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:56,320 leaving. 1132 00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,760 And then they'll go to another organization and they'll just do 1133 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:00,800 the whole thing again. 1134 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:01,840 Right? 1135 00:51:02,079 --> 00:51:02,559 SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 1136 00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,880 SPEAKER_03: So the first step is to actually acknowledge what 1137 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,639 you're carrying and what the impact of it is on you and those 1138 00:51:10,639 --> 00:51:11,599 around you. 1139 00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:12,000 unknown: Yeah. 1140 00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:15,519 SPEAKER_03: Because that's where the cleaning up needs to happen. 1141 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:16,800 SPEAKER_01: It's so beautiful. 1142 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,480 I often say to clients, live your values, try and live the 1143 00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:24,880 integrity value first before you run from the organization and 1144 00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,800 try and go back into another place. 1145 00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,239 Because the the dream that you'll find this ideal place 1146 00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,719 where no shit happens doesn't exist. 1147 00:51:33,119 --> 00:51:35,920 One way or another, you're gonna need to deal with it. 1148 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,400 So rather leave having had a red-hot go at doing, well, in 1149 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,039 our language, the green zone behavior in that red zone system 1150 00:51:43,039 --> 00:51:45,840 and see what happens than just constantly looking for this 1151 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:47,679 kumbaya green zone environment. 1152 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:48,079 Yeah. 1153 00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:50,880 Within reason, to your exact point, within reason, because 1154 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:52,320 sometimes you have to admit defeat. 1155 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,559 This place is just not okay. 1156 00:51:55,039 --> 00:51:55,599 SPEAKER_03: Yeah. 1157 00:51:55,840 --> 00:52:00,000 And and, you know, the scale of what has been allowed to 1158 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:04,960 proliferate is so big, and there is not enough of us who are at 1159 00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:09,360 the same place as me who can willingly acknowledge what's 1160 00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:10,880 happening and talk honestly. 1161 00:52:11,039 --> 00:52:13,760 And that's difficult because you've because you've been in a 1162 00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,400 power and control imbalance, you've always learned how to be 1163 00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:17,280 small and quiet. 1164 00:52:17,679 --> 00:52:18,000 Right? 1165 00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:19,599 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly. 1166 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:20,880 Brent, thank you so much. 1167 00:52:21,039 --> 00:52:26,000 That's been uh very nourishing and worthwhile listening. 1168 00:52:26,079 --> 00:52:30,159 For me, I I found it just lovely to hear the way you express 1169 00:52:30,159 --> 00:52:32,719 things and and the clarity within which you look at. 1170 00:52:33,119 --> 00:52:36,320 I love how you you can express so clearly that we're wearing it 1171 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:37,760 inside ourselves anyway. 1172 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,719 We may not be acknowledging it, but we're wearing the 1173 00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:42,000 consequences of that. 1174 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,440 And as you also said, looking at the impact can be really hard 1175 00:52:45,599 --> 00:52:48,639 because it brings up so much distress in our system, 1176 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:50,480 sometimes looking at that impact. 1177 00:52:50,559 --> 00:52:53,840 So we would more often than not want to turn away in numb 1178 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:54,320 denial. 1179 00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,119 But there's a huge consequence to that because we continue to 1180 00:52:57,119 --> 00:53:01,599 live the misery and then perpetuate the very things that 1181 00:53:01,599 --> 00:53:05,119 we're not enjoying from others, we often perpetuate onto our 1182 00:53:05,119 --> 00:53:06,480 children and our loved ones. 1183 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:07,760 That's profound. 1184 00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,599 SPEAKER_03: The very last thing I want to say is that all of 1185 00:53:11,599 --> 00:53:16,000 what I've spoken about may at this point to a listener sound 1186 00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:16,559 huge. 1187 00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:17,280 Right? 1188 00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:18,079 Yeah. 1189 00:53:18,559 --> 00:53:21,760 And you know, you realize that over years and years and years 1190 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,239 things have been allowed to wind on and wind on and wind on. 1191 00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,679 But it all can be unwound and it's not as difficult as you 1192 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:28,159 think. 1193 00:53:28,559 --> 00:53:29,119 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 1194 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:30,480 Thank you, Bryn. 1195 00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:31,920 Appreciate your time today. 1196 00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:32,719 SPEAKER_03: You're welcome. 1197 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:34,880 SPEAKER_01: The Secret Life of Great Leaders is brought to you 1198 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,159 by Triple Goal, where good coaches become great and leaders 1199 00:53:38,159 --> 00:53:40,159 grow their impact where it matters most. 1200 00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:42,639 Discover more at triplegoal.com. 1201 00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,199 Make sure to search for the Secret Life of Great Leaders in 1202 00:53:45,199 --> 00:53:48,800 Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or anywhere else 1203 00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:49,840 podcasts are found. 1204 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:52,800 Click subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes on 1205 00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:54,719 behalf of the team here at Triple Goal. 1206 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:56,159 Thanks for listening.