EP34 | Leveraging Revenue Operations for Strategic Advantage & Growth

All right, Adam, we're back again. Yeah, David, good to see you back in the studio again. It seems like it's been a little while. It has been.

We've been around the world. Just kidding. New York, but almost another world, right? It was kind of like another world.

Your first trip? Your first trip in New York? Yeah. We figured it out though.

Outside of the one time that we thought we were walking the subway. We won't tell that story. But I bet there's some cops in New York that are having a great laugh right now watching video of us thinking we're locked in a subway at nine o'clock, 10 o'clock at night. That's right.

But it was a good, it was a good time. We, uh, we had, had our first conference. Uh, so we were at a private equity conference, got to learn a lot about value creation, um, especially in the current market, current climate. That's really, really insightful stuff.

So yeah, it was a great opportunity. It was, it was, yeah. Really enjoyed it for sure. Well, before we get, we've got a great guest today, but before we jump into that, let me, give everybody a chance that if you haven't yet gotten a copy of our RevOps readiness assessment, you can grab a copy of that free on our website.

Just go to revsearch.io slash readiness, free copy that you can get there. 20 questions that you can use to evaluate kind of your internal RevOps readiness and where you stand with that. So, well, why don't you set up who we've got on as a guest today?

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm excited to welcome Brett Hohnerkamp. Hopefully I didn't butcher that too bad.

Brett, super excited to have you on. Really quickly about Brett, CRO, obviously 20 years plus experience in helping companies become more effective, driving value across go to market functions and building teams and really focused on driving that ROI. And so super excited to have Brett on. Brett, give us a little bit more of a detailed background here.

Welcome. Yeah, happy to be here. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here and chat with you guys for a few minutes today.

The overarching background is kind of three chapters in life. And it's weird to say that this is my 28th year in sales. Don't do the math. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

But the first eight years was carrying the bag and hunting and farming and SMB to enterprise and a few different roles. But then I purposely pivoted into what you all care about massively and myself included is the operational role of a sales organization. And I did that purposely to be, I wanted to understand how great companies empower their people to succeed through all aspects of operations of RevOps so that I would be a better sales leader on the back end of that. And I did that for about nine, 10 years in a few different roles.

And then the last decade has been two stints as a head of sales and SaaS companies, and then a four-year stint as an operating partner in a private equity firm. So I've been trying to optimize organizational structure, drive top line revenue, and achieve profitability targets for an organization for those last 10 years. And that's really where I've honed my craft extensively. So happy to dig into the topics that are paramount for today.

Yeah, excited for this conversation. And I love the fact that you've been on both sides of that, right? And then you brought those two together in your most recent leadership roles. But I love it when I hear someone that says they've got a background in both sales and in the operations side, because those two roles work so well together when they're aligned.

So I'm excited to hear you unpack some of your thoughts around that. So, well, David, why don't you set up kind of how we're going to have this conversation today? Yeah, I was really excited because, you know, Brett has five key principles that he brings to an organization. So I think that's a good place to start, just kind of walk through those.

And, yeah, I'm excited to hear more about those, Brett. So give us a quick overview of your five key principles. Yeah, I think the principles that when I step back and reflect on my last 10 years, like what really matters? And it's not a functional role principle.

It's just like an ethos that we've got to do these things well in a sales organization. And the five things are my optical focus on the market and how we pursue that market, setting up the team in a successful way to realize the objectives of the business from a growth standpoint, but also to do it profitably. I'm not a grow at any cost guy. In fact, that kind of notion in the marketplace has gone away, right?

You've got to have a tight mindset around what's the process that make things work successfully and how do you execute that. The fourth one is really about how you measure and leverage, measure the right things and leverage that insight to manage the business and optimize it and tweak it, the data-driven insights. And the fifth one is maybe arguably one of my favorites as well, is the enablement and readiness of the team to succeed around all of that. So those are the kind of the five key principles.

Yeah, I love it. It makes me think of, you know, we had a guest on a number of shows back and they talked about a CEO or we could call it a CRO operating system, right? And you've kind of developed this operating system that you can bring into any organization. And I'm sure the practice, the application of it is going to be specific to the organization and the needs.

But the matrix, the grid, the framework is all the same. you bring in these five kind of key principles and try to ensure that there's alignment and there's progress in each one of these. So I think that's a great framework that you've got there. I think what we'd like to do, so, you know, in this conversation, I think some of these we've covered more than others at times with other guests.

And then there's a few of these that, or there's one in particular that we haven't dove very deep in in the past. And I'd love to kind of double clicking and go a little deeper on one of these specific ones. And that's the, that's the whole idea of this optimal team structure. So if we were to, if we were to first kind of set the stage for what you mean by that, and then we have, you know, good conversation around some different points of that over the next few minutes, I think that'd be great.

So set the stage for us. What do you, what's at the highest level, when you say optimal team structure, what do you mean by that? And then how do you begin to ensure that you've got that in place? Yeah, and it's interesting, like the notion of the optimal team obviously changes over time with market conditions, with the size of the organization that you're within, the technology that's available.

So the optimal team structure should address and flex over time. But for me, it's like, how do you balance the team out to ensure that you've got the right amount of people hunting new business that meets the demands or the targets that you've set? How do you balance the team to support the new business coming in to ensure you retain that as best possible? and when you find a growing organization that maybe has a small sales team because I've you know smoke I've spent most of my career focusing on these growth organizations that start at you know 10 sales reps and I leave at 50 but you know part of that is like are the right people in the right seats as that growth occurs because some people are naturally hunters some people are naturally farmers some people are would rather just find a bunch of appointments and tee somebody up.

So, you know, understanding people's passions and putting them in the right spot. And that leads to kind of how we simplify things. Like when you have a person in the right spot in the right role doing just one simple thing, they tend to do it really, you know, more thoughtful and they can execute it at a higher plane. So that simplification of the roles is important to me as well.

Yeah. I'd love to hear a little bit, um, just about your process of approaching that in a new company when you're joining that new business. Talk to us a little bit about how you're assessing, are you doing one-on-one meetings? How are you getting a grip on what's their lay of the land when it comes to the current team?

Do you mean, is the team optimizing in the right spot or, or the people doing what they passionate about Or do you mean both Both Give us both Start with one and then go to the other Sure Yeah I start with our people doing what they passionate about or do you mean both Both Give us both Start with one and then go to the other Sure Yeah I start with our people doing the are they what they passionate about And that for me And it like why are you here Why did you choose the career of sales What is it that you want to be doing every single day?

What's your why? Like, and everybody talks about that, but are you here because you're about to have kids? You want to get married? You want to buy the new car, the new house?

You got a loan to pay off, whatever, right? Like tap into that passion, but then really hone in on the skill sets, looking at, it's the data-driven insights. Let me look at your process and how you're prospecting and where the results are of that effort. And you tend to find where people gravitate towards, right?

And that either becomes one of two things. It becomes, hey, this is what you're good at. And maybe this is the seat you should be in and doing 30 to 40 hours a week instead of trying to be, you know, do everything. Or it is identified that fifth pillar enablement readiness.

Like, what can I do to help you get better at your craft and hone your craft and get better every day so that every day you come in, you're winning. And winning could be, I got an appointment today. Winning could be, I made 75 calls today, but got no result, right? Winning could be, I got a deal today, but at least you're winning every day.

That's how I tap into it from a people perspective, from a business perspective. It's like, you know, what are the leads coming in? How much money are we spending on that? Where are they coming from and diagnosing are we are we spending our thoughtful money in the right places that generate the results that matter and it's not clicks on a website and it's not eyeballs on a website because if those are the wrong eyeballs then then it doesn't matter right are we getting the right eyeballs and do they convert to actual what matters a deal and the revenue structure and I think that's where rev ops becomes so critical 10 years ago it was a sales ops and marketing ops And sometimes you see things in an aligned way and sometimes you don't.

But there's always this. Well, here's my data. Here's your data. That doesn't really match up.

Right. That's why I love the notion of a single entity managing that full stack and managing the journey of that lead across the entire spectrum, because that's what really matters. Right. So I got to get in and assess that in a thoughtful way.

And do we have enough people to realize based on what's coming in and how we're converting things and things are coming out? Is there an optimization I can do there with, with skill or with process or with people? And do we have enough people or do we have too many people in one spot or another and start to move those nuances back and forth? Yeah.

I love that you take that approach. That's both the personal side of the individual and then the business side of what does the team need? I'm curious just because we don't usually hear people. It's not that I don't think people have that conversation.

at all, but you don't usually hear people talk as much about when I first get in there, my, my priority is really to understand the people and what they're looking to get out of their career, out of their life. What's a win for them? What do they want? Uh, how does it take time to build that relationship to where people are honest with you?

Or how do you bridge that quickly to be able to really understand what, understand your people in a way that, that they're honest and open about really what they're looking to get out of their day-to-day, week-to-week, and what they're trying to accomplish for themselves personally there? Yeah, I do it in two ways. Because if you do it just with like this, in my experience, if you do it with this blitzed mindset where I'm going to sit down and have long conversations with each individual, I see fear at times in that what's Brett's objective?

Why is he interviewing me again? Why are we having these conversations? he's the new guy should I be worried about my role that's not that's obviously the the opposite of what the intent is so I typically do it in two ways who's the current leader what do they know and and kind of get the download right then the second piece it's it's more subtle it's more like thought you know passing conversations what'd you do this weekend how you know and just understanding people are like oh you're oh you're pregnant oh that's fantastic like what's next right you're having your wife's having a baby or you're having a baby like you know and just understanding that how do I tap into that as a leader?

Like your, your life fundamentally just changed. And I've got two kids. I'm telling you, it's going to be a whole different world starting today. And how do you become a great mother or father?

And how do you enjoy this career journey you're on being a parent and dividing your responsibility? So tapping into that, I just, so, so it's not like an interview. It's just small conversations over time that really unpacks and helps me understand that. And then I can use that in the enablement sense.

And like, you know, Hey, how are you going have a great day today because you've got a baby on the way or your baby just got here. And how can I support you on that journey? Because I can help you. I can point you to the West.

I'm in St. Louis. I can point you prospecting the West Coast and let you go home and do the after school drive and all that kind of stuff and then jump back on the phone and prospect into California for an hour. Right.

I can balance your day for you. Like, so that's how I kind of tap into that structure. Yeah, that's great. Yeah.

It made me think of I saw something on LinkedIn the other day and it was somebody, I think a rep was publicly saying something about changing a diaper, uh, during his work day. And, uh, and some old school sales leader came in and just roasted that person. I mean, basically, you know, just, and his own CEO, the sales rep CEO wrote a post saying, this is one of our top performers. He can do whatever he wants.

Um, and I support this and And it was just a cool, and it's exactly what you're speaking to. It's that human, we all have stuff going on. The bottom line is, are we delivering, right? And there's enough flexibility to be able to do that.

And so you're speaking to that, that personal connection, really taking more of that authentic approach because that's what people want. We all want that leader that wants to get to know us, that actually is curious and interested. So I thought that was, yeah. made me think of that.

I thought of that. Go ahead. Change a diaper. You can change a diaper all day.

I don't care if you can sell, it doesn't matter. That's right. That's right. You can sell and change a diaper at the same time.

Oh my, you are, you're an A player. That's president's club material. That's right. That's right.

Well, it made me think of as well, when you were talking about just on the business side of just balancing the team, assessing the team and what is the need for the organization. I think sometimes I think about I put every SAS business, every technology business in the bucket of saying they're all like baseball teams. And so, but when I think of it that way, they all need the same 26 players. They need pitchers.

But the reality is, is that they're really, what type of team do you have? And some are baseball teams and some are soccer teams and some are football teams. And they're all built a little bit differently. And so we've got to come in and realize, okay, what kind of team do I have here?

And over time, they transition probably from a smaller team to a larger team, and you have to put different levels of leadership in place as it grows. But the idea is that it's not cookie cutter. They're not all the same. And you've got to come in and initially assess what kind of team do I have here?

And then what's our next stage of growth and where are we going? Yeah. And that's the optimal team structure, right? How does it flex and evolve over time?

I'll just keep playing on your sports analogy. If you don't watch Welcome to Wrexham, you should. But after Ryan and Rob bought that team, it was different three years ago. And they've been promoted twice since.

And they've had to rebuild that team to support the new leagues that they're in. And that's true for a SaaS business or a tech services business or manufacturing business. as you grow and evolve, you have to change as an organization to continually move the needle. And in my last role, when I was hired, it was 19 sales reps, primarily inbound.

And we stood up two new channels, an outbound channel and a customer success channel. The CS channel, we kind of converted some account managers into more of a traditional CS role. And with that came some targeting and some churn management and different roles and responsibilities. And for the most part, they transitioned really, really excellently.

but that's indicative of the change. That team is 55 people strong now holistically with all inbound outbound and CS And it has different needs as you grow different leaders um and we and we were talking about it a couple months ago dave on um when do you invest in rev ops and we didn't have rev ops to be to be transparent we had sales ops and marketing ops we just we didn't ever got to the rev ops function but i made a conscious decision as we started to scale outbound i'm like i i can't get there as a head of sales and do all the data analytics, set up all the sequences, and I need help.

And it took a little bit of selling with the CEO. I'm like, when we make the next tranche of investment, I'm going to give up some sales headcount. I'm going to give up an AE, and I'm going to give up an SDR because I want to hire a great director of sales operations. And he managed sales and CS.

So it's like a three-legged stool for RevOps, right? Marketing, customer success, and sales. So we had CS and sales. And then as the team scale, we hired an enablement person under that.

We had a Salesforce admin under that and we had a data reporting expert under that. So it became a team of four people to support a sales organization of 55, which is a pretty solid ratio, but it took a little bit of selling to convince the business that, well, the target's going to be bigger. You need more sales reps. I'm like, no, no, no, no.

I need someone who frees up my time, who helps me analyze the data in a thoughtful way and gets to a point where they're being proactive about, hey, Brett, I'm seeing this. The data is starting to show me this. Here's what we're measuring. And I want to start measuring this.

And here's why. To give us a different sense on what's happening, and a really good one is like my right hand, like gives it to me on a proactive basis and doesn't wait for me to ask. They just start to feed me information. And then it becomes a really powerful entity that frees my time up, helps me focus, speeds up the A-B testing and sequencing and our messaging.

and are we using the right words and watches the data myopically on a daily basis so that like this this sequence 10 days in isn't working we're just going to stop it now let's not go for 30 days let's go for let's shorten up the cycle of change that's when you start to get that that growth scale if you can improve weekly by like one percent every week like man at the end of the year that's a massive improvement ratio and it's more than 52 i can't do the math on here but one percent every week cumulative is more than 52 percent incremental best practice growth right yeah for sure well and one of the things we we experienced this at an organization that i was at years ago and we came in and we had a lot of outside sales a lot of inside sales but it was all this extra work all this duplicated effort and it wasn't efficient our top sales rep was like $1.

6 million in sales. We brought in a new technology. We brought in enablement. We brought in coaching.

We brought in all these things and our sales organization actually shrunk, but our overall revenue grew. On top of that, our top sales rep went from 1.6 or the number, I should say the number one sales rep before was at 1.6.

Our new number one in the new system, our average was 1.8 and our new guy went to about 3.5 million dollars in sales and so because of so some would say argue well you need more people to sell more we didn't we needed the right tools we needed the right technology we need the right data we needed we needed someone in operations to ensure that everybody got better at what they were doing and when we did that that's when the organization begin to win better. Yeah, you got it.

I mean, it's when you've got someone looking at the data, I'll give you an example, dissecting, let's say you spend, I don't know, a half a million dollars on inbound effort, whether it's organic spend on content or Google ads or Facebook or whatever it is, when you start to unpack that and understand where the leads are coming from and how much you're spending to get the leads that are converting and those that aren't, and can you shift that spend around, you start to see incremental growth.

When you start to break down the buyer's journey and where are we as a sales organization missing the opportunity to reel in that deal? And where's that pitfall inside the sales motion? And you diagnose that and you find that, hey, we don't have the skillset or we can change the process to make this return a little bit better. That's where the power of RevOps come in.

And it doesn't mean that a sales leader can't do it. But as a sales leader, you're trying to think about the strategic vision, six to nine to 12 months down the road. You're coaching people each and every day. You're on deal calls, trying to close deals.

You're going to trade shows, all of that stuff. But now you've got a RevOps team behind you that is diagnosing and testing and doing this stuff every day for you. It just frees up your mind, right? When you've got a good team, it frees your mind.

Yeah. And it makes a massive difference. We had this saying on our team. We said, let the system carry the weight.

And so oftentimes before we had a very robust and powerful system, we were reliant on sales reps to remember things, to keep notes, to set reminders. And inevitably things fell through the crack, not because those were bad sales reps, not because they didn't care, not because it didn't matter to them, their own personal bottom line, right? It's just that how can any one person manage everything perfectly? But once we put the right tools and systems in place and we allowed it to carry the weight, it would notify them properly of, hey, here's something that may have been missed.

Here's something that needs to be looked at. It notified the sales manager after some period of time and they could dive in a little bit more. And that allowed us to become more productive with the efforts that we had. And again, it's not because they were bad people.

They were people. They were humans. And we all miss things over time. So, yeah.

Yeah, let the tech stack manage it for you. Exactly. I agree. Exactly.

The other piece I was thinking about is, you know, we had this conversation a couple of weeks ago is this idea of moving the middle on your sales team, right? And how ops plays into that. Because a lot of times you're just, most companies are in a position where they're just hiring A players. They're constantly having to hire A players.

They've got a sales team. They don't know what great looks like. They haven't operationalized it. They haven't figured it out.

You know, what are the real effective things that our top performers are doing and how can we use that to move the middle on the rest of the team? I'd love to hear your experience on that. Have you seen ops play, make a major impact in that regard? It's interesting you use those specific words.

I spent five years at a performance improvement company here in St. Louis in operations called Merits, big company. and they're all about performance strategy, like motivation strategies and where you get points and you can get rewards or travel, incentive travel, presidents, clubs. But they had also had a learning organization.

They had a data organization. And the companies they sold to, which were typically the big ones, the Fortune 500s, could hire them across that full spectrum, right? One of the programs we had was Move the Middle. And it focused on two things.

It focused on working with organizations that in helping them understand the metrics of success in their process and how do you incent around the right metrics that actually improves the outcome right and that's and what instinctively are your a players doing it that your b players aren't and i would argue that if you hired 100 a players there's still b players in that mix right you're just you just you just elevated the game right there's also some c players but you've elevated the game um what are you doing to incent to move those folks but then you bring in the learning part of the organization which is enablement and you focus on the skill sets that matter to ultimately move the middle and you give them the carrot like when you get better at your craft here's what you can win and it's not just president's club it could be a tv this month it could be an apple watch it could be a rolex whatever but here's what you can win and here's how i'm going to help you win so when you look at you know i've got you in the right seat i've got the optimal team structure i've got processes in place.

Adam, you talked about the management system around that, and that's extremely important. And I got a management system too that I put in place But at the end of the day if you don have the people with the right skill set and the right mindset if you have the best process and management system in the world, it's still going to crumble. And when I go back to that program that we would deploy called Move the Middle, it had a notion of the incentive structure around it. But at the end of the day, it really was around skill set development and the capabilities of the people and how do you help them get better each and every quarter?

I say every day, but you can't get better at your craft every day. You can practice every day, and we should. One of the best hitters in baseball from St. Louis, Albert Pujols, he hit 100 baseballs off a tee every day before a game.

Like off a tee, that's what like a three-year-old does. Right. That's what he did because he got his muscle memory in the right spot, and he was just remembering and honing his craft. And if we do that as salespeople, the middle moves every single day.

Yeah. Yeah. You also affect retention. You know, there's another thing.

I mean, you're getting, because you're actually investing in people, which is what people want ultimately. And that, you know, causes them to go, wow, these people care about my success, right? This organization cares about my success. And I just love how Ops is, you know, just backs that whole effort.

And yeah, so excellent. I kind of feel like we've covered this last point that we had on here, but I want to make sure we don't gloss over it and miss anything there. So one of the kind of final conversations we want to have was how ops contributes to revenue growth, right? So sometimes there's this, I shouldn't say argument, but this idea of like, hey, ops isn't revenue generating.

And so it's a nice to have, not a must have. I love the idea that you said when you got to a certain point, hey, I'm willing to give up headcount in sales to get these ops leaders in here. And obviously you saw that as revenue generating, contributing to revenue growth. we've unpacked a few of those ideas, but I don't want to gloss past it without letting you kind of develop it fully.

Is there what any, any other thoughts or ideas that you would say around just why you see the importance of operations in an organization and how you see it contributing to the overall revenue growth? Yeah, I think I would agree. I think we have touched on a lot of this. Being a PE, being in two PE backed organizations and the CEOs are both founder led, you know, CEOs in those situations, they're the idea guy, right?

They built the product from scratch. They coded it from scratch. They're the researcher that put some structured product that they could sell around it. They're not always commercially oriented.

And there are some that are. I'm not saying that none of them are. And I'm just going to parrot it back that I had to sell the CEO in my last role on why I wanted to invest in the head of sales ops and fundamentally understood that there's value there. But like, what's the outcome are we going to achieve?

I'm going to give up a sales rep and a BDR to cover the cost of this head of sales operations. And it just, it's not even a question for me because I know that I'm going to, good sales leaders and the people that have grown up, especially myself spending 10 years in operations, I know what to measure. Like, let's look at the sales motion and our buyer's journey and where are the steps that really matter? And let's unpack that and let's set up the measurements of success.

But to do that in a thoughtful way and then build the dashboard and then make sure the dashboard's running right and make sure that the sales reps are doing everything, everything they need to do in the sales motion, that the automatic triggers are actually happening so that the sales manager can be notified that something didn't occur on a lead. Right. That's that's a lot of button pushing, a lot of lever pulling and a lot of attention to detail. And I'll be honest, I'm not like attention to detail for me is not a strength.

Right. And I think having it's when you unpack all of that workflow that you even need for a 15 person sales organization to maximize the spend and the investment you're putting in those people. It's a no brainer to start pulling in the support staff to offload that. It's no different than an operations officer saying, I need another project manager to help manage the projects inside this organization.

Or we're going to do a two-year ERP deployment, and I need a project manager to manage that for us, right? It's no different than a PM, to put it in the context of a different function, right? I can measure things more accurately because they're looking at it every day, and they're fixing idiosyncrasies in the measurement tool. I can optimize the structure of a sales motion with weekly testing and saying, oh, let's test this message.

And that didn't work. Let's test this messaging. And they're also writing that and crafting that and editing that and deploying it in the system and building the sequence. Let's test an eight-step sequence versus a 13-step sequence.

Can we build it all out as sales leaders? Sure. What is it going to take away from us? It's going to take away time for me talking to a customer, going to a trade show, thinking strategically about what to do six months from now.

when we hit this next revenue goal and we want to start leaning into hiring the next sales leader or open up this new market. It just offloads that. It frees up the time to think strategically about the business and work with customers or you're going to take it away. That's the decision to make.

Do you want me pushing the buttons and pulling the levers or do you want me thinking about the strategic growth of the business and closing deals? That's where it comes down to. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't agree more.

It's the partner to the CRO that makes the CRO more effective in their role because oftentimes we see this person, if they're really operating as a top level rev ops, sales ops leader, they understand the strategy enough. So you're not as a CRO, you're not having to explain the strategy. Once you give it to them, they say, okay, I get it. I catch that vision.

Right. But then they have the ability to go back and tactically accomplish it either themselves or with the team that they have underneath them. And, and that it just, it makes both of those roles more powerful than they would be on their own or without one of those roles being there. So yeah, that's great.

It also helps you validate the path, validate the go-to-market strategy, right? There's this part of, are we actually heading in the right direction? And we can now look at over time, look at the data and go, actually, we need to pivot this way because it's a lot more effective, right? A lot more opportunity, a lot more potential, a lot more.

for this particular business. I think it's an ongoing driving effectiveness, adjusting that strategy. All around. A great rev ops leader will not look.

They'll look at the data, but they'll look at it proactively and say, hey, Adam, hey, Dave, I'm seeing this. I feel like something's changing. We need to talk about this. We need to spend some time around this, and we need to maybe think about doing something a little bit different to get ahead of what might be happening, right?

That's, if you don't have that right hand, you're not gonna see that right away. You're gonna see it reactively, not proactively. I hear you saying it's more like, you want it to be more like going to a doctor and be like, hey, I'm feeling something right here rather than an autopsy at the end of your life. It's over and they're like, well, here's what the problem was, right?

We wanna, there's something right here. Okay, let's take a look. Let's really dive in a little bit deeper and figure out what's going on and correct it before you're laying on a cold table. So I'll take it one step further.

I want someone walking behind me that says you're walking differently than you ever have before. Is there something going on on the right side of your body that you're not aware of? Like, my, I didn't really think that. But now that you say that, it hurts right there.

We should look into that. Yeah. Right. Yeah, for sure.

For sure. Well, this has been a great conversations, Brett. We just appreciate your insights, your thoughts here. And, um, yeah.

So really, really been a great conversation. Yeah. For listeners, reach out to Brett. If you've got questions for him, if you want to pick his brain a little bit, connect with him on LinkedIn.

Yeah, Brett, it's been a great session. I appreciate you. I hope I added value. Thanks for having me.

It's been fun. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. Talk to you soon.