How To Turn Pest Control into Profit with Justin Clements

Speaker A: Tough conversations is a must in any organization. And as a leader specifically, that can be a challenge to navigate. I think that is one of the reasons why we've built such a great team is because the expectation early on is set, you know, to one that performance is important. But that's not the only thing that we care about. We often find that when we have those hard conversations, the biggest thing that shines through is being authentic about it and understanding that this is nothing new.

Speaker B: Welcome to another episode of the Profitable Management Podcast. I'm your host, Jordan Whaler and today I have Justin Clements from Pest Share. Justin, thanks for coming in morning.

Speaker A: Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: All right, so I'm excited to chat and I want to start off with today. Can you tell me a little bit about what Pest Share is up to right this very minute?

Speaker A: Right this very minute? Well, we're at a conference at this moment and you know, we're at one of the IMN conferences which always seem to be great networking opportunities and sales opportunities. But at this moment, peshare as a company where we're grinding, we're building product. We are, you know, we have several releases that and updates that we're kind of, you know, working on and just rolling out. We've kind of broken down a lot of our roadmap and made it into more, you know, bite sized chunks by way of making sure that we continue to, you know, release product in a timely manner, you know, features, updates, things like that. So that's been a good look. Back of the year is, you know, we've been kind of building up to this point and we're finally at the point to where a lot of these products are now starting to release.

Speaker B: And so for those that don't know in a nutshell, what is Pest Share,

Speaker A: Pest Share is essentially an on demand pest control amenity that we've built into the lease for property managers that give access to residents or access to professional pest control requests for residents essentially. And so if you think about it, and we use this lightly, but if you think about it in the most relatable terms is insurance for pest control. So residents have the ability to, you know, if they have a bedbug issue or you know, uh, some sort of invasive roach issue, they have the ability to use our technology, our software right on their phone to request professional pest control. And then we utilize our vendor network throughout the nation to match, you know, the needs of the resident to, you know, the remediation necessary. And we dispatch those out and we're end to End solution for the resident and the property manager benefits ultimately in a number of ways. You know, reduced incoming issues, having to, you know, facilitate the calls, find vendors that are going to be reputable, dispatch them, make sure that they get it done on time. So it's a lot of headache that's reduced from them because we take that on and we're very niche in that regard. We focus on one thing, but we do that very intentionally because we want to be the best at it.

Speaker B: So can you contrast this against the status quo prior to pest share? What is the default status quo in the industry?

Speaker A: Yeah, well, the default is kind of 100 years running and it's traditional pest control. And most of what traditional pest control lacks is really opening up into, you know, why we're in this space. In general, traditional pest control is built and has been built over the last a hundred plus years for residential ownership. And so that being said, a lot of it is quarterly maintenance cycles. You know, things that are just the typical creepy crawlies, you know, the spiders, the ants, you know, the things that come relatively seasonally. What often happens is there's kind of this disparity between the resident's expectation, you know, when they're in a home, it's not necessarily their asset, so there's less motivation to maintain that property as far far as the asset goes. And then the property manager is caught in between because there's always this friction of who's going to deal with the pest control issue when it arises. But we often see that, uh, especially when it comes to the invasive things. Traditional pest control doesn't cover the invasive issues. Those super spreaders, the cockroaches, the bedbugs, and those are oftentimes the most expensive to remediate. You're talking thousand dollars, $2,000 a pop when you're talking bedbugs or roaches or things like that. And so often the, the resident, you know, in, in that demographic doesn't often have, you know, I mean, who has $1,000 that they can just have on hand when that issue arises. And so I think that the issue with traditional pest control is, is number one, they don't catch it fast enough and number two, they don't cover a lot of those things. So when it comes to those quarterly maintenance cycles, which is really what it's been built on, it's just for the common, you know, common area pests. But when you get into the other more invasive species or those specialty pests, what we call them, you know, they're in addition to, instead of it being inclusive, you know, with that. So that's kind of what we're aiming to help resolve is alleviate the tension between property manager and resident, give them the opportunity to really understand who's responsible for the pest. So there is a lot of clarity around it. You know, oftentimes it's built in the lease, but residents often don't, you know, read the lease, right, they just kind of sign the renewal or they sign up and they said like, and then when the issue comes up, they come to their property manager upset, you know, and then the property manager says, no, that's your responsibility. And then, you know, there's that friction again. And so that's kind of what we're hoping to achieve ultimately is, is we're basically building out clarity and then ease of access to a lot of these specialty pests. So.

Speaker B: And ah, what kind of liability is there for the owner in a situation where the tenant chooses not to do the necessary pest control simply, uh, to uh, save money?

Speaker A: Yeah, great question. So previously that has been the case in many cases when an issue arises, let's call it bed bugs or whatnot, and those are, you know, one of the super spreader, you know, types of pests. And so what happens is if the resident is responsible, they know that it's going to be expensive and they don't have a solution already built in, then they oftentimes will sit on the issue and you know, they'll wait for it to get bad enough and it either either cause churn, it'll cause them to turn, or it'll just continue to exacerbate and get worse and worse and worse until either, you know, somebody is forced to act in that. And so as an investor, an owner of a property, you know, it starts to cause issues with the asset itself. And so then it not only just becomes more expensive to remediate, but then ultimately it starts to, you know, become an issue to the quality of the asset itself. You know, you talk about bedbugs or mice or whatnot, and those, those are the types of things that will, you know, chew through wiring and they'll cause extensive damage to the property if they're not dealt with quick enough. And so the idea here, here is we provide the access to be able to give the residents. And knowing that it's already built into their lease, they're paying a small monthly fee for access to that. They don't have to come up with $1,000 when it arises. They know that it's their responsibility. They're not paying much with that monthly fee. And so ultimately when it comes up, then they're much more willing to head off the issue instead of allowing it to continue to build and build and then cause further damage either to the asset or deplete the resident experience.

Speaker B: What are they paying out of pocket? Is the entire expense covered when they have an event or is it a partial?

Speaker A: Absolutely. So on a covered event, ultimately, and ultimately that covered event is based off of the package that the property manager decides. And so oftentimes what we'll do is we'll work with the property manager to say, okay, what are the common issues? And so again, we take those invasive, you know, types of pests and they're all automatically built in. And then when they've chosen that package that is gets in built into their lease, then ultimately when the resident has an issue, they're paying, you know, 9, 15, whatever that that monthly charge looks like based off of that package, and they automatically have the ability to have access to it, you know, once that door is activated. So.

Speaker B: And how do you QA the vendors on the ground and what kind of challenges have you had with that?

Speaker A: That's a great question. It has been a challenge. You know, building a vendor network is not easy, especially in like the service type industry. There's a lot of, you know, nuances to how people run their businesses. And actually we have a fantastic service ops department and our director of service ops has been really good at making sure that there's clarity around, you know, what, what is the intention going out to these? Because they're different from traditional pest control. We have built and designed the product and the work order process to be very clear, very intentional with what they're going to do. And so when we deliver that to the, the vendor, the vendor is essentially just going out, performing the service, making sure that it all is well essentially. And, and that's it. Uh, they don't have to, you know, hassle with resident. The resident doesn't have to hassle with the vendor because oftentimes there's, you know, friction there. And, and so we want to make sure that we're kind of, you know, keeping all of that at bay, you know, as much as we can.

Speaker B: So you're effectively providing lead gen for that side of the industry, right?

Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. And it's uh, in the rental space that that whole side of the real estate market is virtually untouched. And a lot of times it's untouched is because the renter is the most immediate person or point of contact. And oftentimes again, because there is either lack of clarity or because it's not their asset, there's no motivation to have that pest control taken care of. And so we ultimately believe that professional pest control is the best way to remediate anything, any type of pest issue, rather than kind of the DIY situation or whatnot. Oftentimes we find that that exacerbates the issue. But, but professional pest control is ultimately why we're here, because we're from that industry.

Speaker B: So back to qa. How do you know if somebody did a bad job and what do you do if they did?

Speaker A: Yeah, our QA process ultimately comes back into managing, especially when it comes to our vendors. We often, especially after we will survey the resident and we'll survey the vendor and then we'll survey the pm, making sure that the perception of that, you know, more of that qualitative, you know, data is captured just to make sure that their perception of what the treatment was, the customer service quality, the quality of treatment itself, that ultimately is a number of items that we, that we check with the, you know, those sources that are actually involved with it.

Speaker B: So to what degree are you having to build an actuarial model to understand the frequency of the incidence of pest related issues?

Speaker A: Yeah, that is a great question actually. So that's something that we have been building in our back end for quite some time. And this is actually bringing a lot of new light to the pest control industry in itself, but also to the residential rental pest control industry, because it's a very new category that again, traditional pest control has not touched very effectively. And so there's a lot of data that's kind of circling around and we're starting to capture a lot of that information as, you know, frequency of pest types, like what are the, how does spreading happen throughout the nation, you know, and so we can, we can actually understand a lot more of what in within the rental segment. How do we care? Like you hear about these outbreaks, you know, if you will, in France or in New York or whatnot, how does that happen? Where, where does it originate? And it's nearly impossible to originate. But if we can track the information, the data, the work order history, we can start to see, you know, where does it start to kind of cross those barriers, those lines. Now we again, staying within our niche, that's been a really enticing focus for us to really start diving into the data because we believe that that will always translate back to the property manager to be able to elevate the residents experience and make sure that that the pac, the inclusions, or the way that we're delivering the service are ultimately for the benefit of the resident. And then you have obviously the down chain or ancillary benefits that, uh, you know, property manager, asset manager, you know, the investor, they're all benefiting from the fact that we're focused on the resident's experience and making sure that their, you know, tenure is, you know, pleasurable. So.

Speaker B: Yeah, so you mentioned that you had a background in the industry, specifically on the pest control side. Could you say a bit more about that?

Speaker A: Yeah, actually, all three of us, my other co founders, Tom Clemence, Landon Cooley and myself, we all have spent decades in the traditional pest control industry. Actually, I want to say Landon, who actually was on one of your podcasts before, is, uh, fourth generation pest control. And so Tom and I's roots don't go so deep. We've been in probably for, you know, 20, 25 years. Ish. Now, lightweights. They're lightweights. Lightweights compared to four generations. Yeah, but. But lots of experience ultimately. And again, in the traditional space, you know, that's kind of how we been able to kind of build this domain of expertise within, and we've been able to kind of identify, you know, what's lacking within, you know, the space in general. As far as, like, a holistic approach.

Speaker B: What did you see? Was there a moment? Was there an inflection point? Was it years of experience culminating with, uh, a general thesis?

Speaker A: Yeah, funny enough, we, Tom and I had had several, you know, pest control branches, small branches, you know, in college, we started in sales, you know, specifically. And so. And then, you know, Landon kind of grew up in pest control, but he kind of, you know, grew up learning how to, you know, operate, how to run the business. His dad actually, you know, was obviously one that kind of mentored him through that. And then at a point in time, Landon took over his dad's company. And then Tom and I, when we moved into the same valley, because we're originally from Washington State, when we moved into the Boise Valley to start our company there locally, we were actually competitors in the traditional pest space. And then, you know, let's say five, six years down the road, we had built up a company to where we were both, you know, relatively, you know, equally sized or whatnot. And, and we had met each other, I want to say it was like through an acquisition letter that, uh, typically sent out. I don't say Lendon sent it out. And so we reached out and we were like, well, hey, we're not interested in selling, but hey, let's have a conversation. We're always willing to have a conversation with anybody. And long story short, we kind of hit it off. We had very similar visions, we had very similar methodologies of approaching business and kind of that philosophy and how we ran the companies, you know, what was the vision for the future of like that valley in particular. And. And we decided to merge, actually. And so that's kind of where our relationships, you know, intertwined. And then Landon were actually running a, uh, small, like pilot with Jim and Melissa Sharon, actually they're there from First Rate Property Management. And so they kind of came to him and said like, hey, look, we need to figure this out. He was actually a vendor for them in NARPAM space. And so the national association of Residential Property Management. So when we merged, there was a small pilot program that was kind of just a very like, rudimentary, almost back shelf type of thing. It was kind of, you know, just. There were bigger fish to fry at that moment. And then, you know, once we had kind of, you know, streamlined a. The merger. The merger, the dust all ultimately settled, we noticed that there was this small program and it was like, what is this? And so then I was like, you know, it's something that we've been trying to do with NARPAM or whatnot. And so we're like, well, let's dust this book off and let's see if it's got any legs. And actually, Jim and Melissa were the ones that really pushed us to bring this nationally. So we decided, we're like, okay, well what does it need to have to be scalable and actually to take it on a national scale? And so we, we run off of an EOS program and ultimately kind of went through our VTO and you know, their end result ultimately kind of, you know, was one that we said, you know what, let's take the leap. And so our first, I want to say our first conference back in 2020 was a broker owner out in Connecticut and we were just coming off of COVID It was still masks on and we were just so naive to the space. And it was a lot of fun. Looking back. We were just kind of like, what were we doing? You know, and we had no idea what to expect or even what to pitch really. Uh, but it was a great opportunity, turns out. Uh, yeah, yeah, I think that was it, right? Something like that.

Speaker B: It was Rural Connecticut casino.

Speaker A: Yes, that's right. That's what it was. Yeah, it was at that casino and it was, um, just Such a new experience. Like we were total fish out of water and but we went into it like as true sales oriented. We've always been very sales forward, sales oriented and you know, just, just went to learn really and found out that everything we were pitching was wrong. And so we came back, we regrouped and, and continued forward. And much like everything else has iterations. Yeah.

Speaker B: Series of ass kickings to see who can adjust the most times.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: Get, get what's want.

Speaker A: And we've had our fair share. Yeah.

Speaker B: Tell me what's been hardest things thus far. What's been one of the hardest moments in this journey thus far?

Speaker A: I think the speed has been one of the most difficult things. You know we're venture backed company and that's when we were very, very skeptical to take outside money because we come from the small business world and that's known, that's comfortable. And the speed of growth is very different in that setting. You have, you know, large amounts of capital that you can pour into it and it's. And it's a matter of like when and where. But I think the speed to which we've grown has been something that's m. Both very exciting. But it's just, it's been a lot different than your traditional SMB and you know, for better or for worse. But I think that's been a big learning curve for us uh, as we've continued to grow. But it's made us expand and it's gotten us out of our comfort zone and I'd say for the better really. It's been a uh, really meaningful experience I think for all of us because we have also been forced to really focus on the compliments that we play, especially as co founders. We all kind of carry a uh, relatively unique perspective. Different perspectives, complementing perspectives. And that's what we really have had to lean on as well. So that we can kind of use that as let's say a superpower than it is a crutch having three butting heads. We actually, you know, work extremely well in the sense of making sure that we have the right checks and balances, we have the right opposing perspectives. And that has really allowed us to work with the speed and kind of keep up with the growth of the company.

Speaker C: So today's episode is brought to you by Pestshare, the first resident pest control platform that actually boosts noi. Look, pest problems drain time and money. Your team fields the calls, tracks down vendors and babysits every ticket. Pestshare flips that script Residents handle everything themselves in the Peshshare app. Submitting a request takes about five minutes and a vetted text shows up in roughly three days. You simply bake Pesh share into the lease. What used to be a cost center becomes a resident paid benefit and an ancillary revenue stream for you. Fewer tickets, Happier residents, lighter workloads, stronger noi. Hundreds of property management companies already trust Pestshare. Hundreds of thousands of residents are on the platform today ready to evict the bugs and keep the residents. Head to pestshare.com or uh, just tap the link in the show notes and see how easy pest control can be related to growth.

Speaker B: Let's talk about forecasting. Bottoms up, top down. Bottoms up is here are the things that we know we think we can do. What does it add up to? Top down is this is what the target will be and we will find out a way to hit it. What has been yalls the evolution of your approach over time to forecasting as it relates to growth?

Speaker A: That's a great question. So it's been a lot of, I would say until a couple of years ago or so it's been a really top down approach. And so it's been mostly, you know, let's go again, uh, being very sales oriented, you know, we, we wanted to kind of go out and just hit the market hard, you know, capture you know, what we could identify as product market fit. And that product market fit is really important, especially in the space and the path that we're, because that allows us to continue to raise capital really well. And we've been very fortunate in that regard. The transition that we're starting to see now as a company is that, I mean we've been seeing this for a while, but the transition that we've been moving towards is uh, more of that bottoms up approach, which is where a lot of the data is starting to come back to. And it really helps us identify more granularly our customer base, the business in itself. And it rolls all up into kind of that top down, you know, when, when it comes to the goals that we've set as you know we're going to hit this revenue goal or whatnot that ultimately is driven by a lot of our bottom up. And so it's, you know, the various metrics that we have that we, that we forecast are a lot based off of a lot of the, the spend ratios and we have like a million different ratios that we track from the bottom up approach so that we can make sure that we're making Proper decisions from kind of that top line vision. So if that makes sense.

Speaker B: And how has the finance function evolved overall? Do you guys have a CFO right now who's running finance?

Speaker A: We have a director of finance. We're not quite to the point to where we need a cfo and that's kind of a very, you know, top level position that's much more focused on strategy as opposed to it being kind of in the weeds of the. And so that has been a, uh, really great, you know, way for us to again allow for us to kind of dive into the data. Our finance piece has been mixed in two ways. It's not only been kind of tying the, you have all of the financial information, but then you have all your data information, your conversion rates from funnel metrics all the way down to end delivery of service costs, your cost structuring throughout. What has been really nice is that our director of finance is awesome. She has been connecting the two and I think that that's been a really key piece for us and very insightful is being able to tie the revenue and every dollar to every stage that a customer goes through in their journey. And making sure that we're conscious of every stage in those conversions as it goes through allows us to make more pointed decisions when it comes to any given department and how they approach either the customer or the direction and the people and what they're focused on at any given moment. So to give you an example, like in our CS department for example, it's client success. They focus a lot on onboarding, adoption and making sure that the, the user's experience is, you know, top notch. One of those is breaking that out into relative health scores. And so there's a number of, of items that we have, both quantitative and qualitative, that we've ident matter to the customer. And I think that's one of the things that we really focus on is making sure that the, anything that we build, anything that we do is always from the customer's perspective. And so we really kind of take that, that Steve Jobs approach. But in that regard, when it comes to a lot of the metrics that we're tracking as far as like data usage, how often they're using it, you know, what are the pest types that they're requesting, that gives us insight on the ability to not only understand the cost structure behind those on any given account, but on a per door basis, we can then report to our property managers that essentially give them insight on what are their properties experiencing on a niche pest level. And then how does that affect their residents experience? And if it's affecting their residents experience, it gives them a couple of different things. Are they bringing in the right residents? And because the everybody wants the right customer, Right. What's ideal for them is the resident experience, such that it creates enough tenure to make sure that they're continually happy, they're hitting their renewals, they're renewing on a regular basis. And if we can affect that, in essence, then we can essentially prove that we can alleviate them from the most expensive part of property management, which is that turnover, the vacancy. Right. So that's kind of been a lot of our goal in tying this all together and wrapping it up in a pretty bow right now it's really messy, but that's been a lot of our intention lately is to really bring a lot of that information and add that value to the property manager so that they understand and know, okay, in this sense, in this essence, and there's a lot to it, uh, we understand that maintenance as a whole is not just pest control, but in this sense, if we can identify that this contributes to the resident's experience overall, that also contributes to renewal rates, then that ultimately will help the property manager identify and understand who's their true ICP or their ideal resident. Um, and then they'll start to be better at understanding how do they filter through, how do they sift through all of the applications. Is this the right type of resident I want in the property?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's smart. Everybody's trying to map to the impact to the end user. Right. What's the impact to the owner? What's the impact to the tenant? I'm, um, curious how your identity has needed to shift over time as you've gone from a guy who's running a local pest control company to now doing what you're doing currently.

Speaker A: What's the headcount right now, employee wise? Yeah, yeah, we have about 60.

Speaker B: So 60 people and you're acting as CEO, so there's a significant context shift. The folks that you're talking to day to day catering to has shifted. How has your identity as a leader shifted over time and needed to shift in order to allow you to grow and continue to be effective in your role?

Speaker A: That's a great question. Actually. I think the. We've actually always been pointed as, uh, us as co founders, we've been very pointed in making sure that we don't change. And I would say that our identity, as far as who we are, how we approach our people, has actually held really strong to the way that we lead in general. And I think that the day to day function has probably been the biggest shift as far as like what contributes to our identity. And I think that as all three of us have, again, we kind of use that the three compliments as more of a superpower than a crutch. And I think that that's allowed us to be able to, to allow that, that let's say the day to day function of what we do to help contribute to our identity rather than, uh, it change our identity. And so we're all family men. We don't want to be. We're not the type of people that, that, you know, are, let's say fake, for lack of a better term. I think that, you know, we just, we really want to be authentic and everything that we do is through the lens of being real and being authentic. And I think that really carries through and that holds a lot of the way that we lead as leaders, but we lead in different ways. And I think that that actually really again has been a nice evolution to the way that we lead is we also have very complementing leadership styles. And I think that uh, that's been kind of a nice evolution to the way that our identities have shifted is we've kind of been able to allow ourselves, especially with kind of the way that we divide and conquer. We've been allow ourselves to evolve and develop the way that we lead best and, and really kind of highlight those. And so it's, it's been, been great thus far.

Speaker B: Yeah. When I say identity shifting, I'm getting at the stories that we tell ourselves. For example, if you want a job done right, you got to do it yourself.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And that's, that's a kind of story that can feel really affirmatory at a certain stage and can really hold you back later on. I know that for me there's been a lot of stories that have had to, uh, shift in order for me to stay relevant and effective. And had I chosen not to, I held things back. Yeah, I would have bent the opportunity towards me, my comfortability, et cetera. Uh, so that's really what I'm just.

Speaker A: That's a, that's that's a, that's a great, great perspective there as well. And that is 100% a lot of the evolution, a lot of the shift in the identity is you're totally right. In traditional SMB, you have that comfort zone. You know that if you want the job done right, you do it yourself. Because oftentimes you're the one that is the best for the job. However, it's really important to uh, hire those like minded folks so that you, and I'd say it comes back to your hiring structure as well. And that's one thing that we've really had to lean on is getting the right people in the right seats. And it's a constant thing. It's not just, you know, hire one person, you're done and you don't have to do anything after that. It's really been one that making sure that the number one, you're hiring the right people at first and then those people as you continue to lead them, you have to step away. Right. 80% of the way that you would have done it is better done through them versus you having to take that on and wear so many different hats and it would be an impossible task for you to do. So. I think the leading as a way of focusing on the organizational structure has been a uh, big shift or an evolution to the way that we manage the company and its in itself and understanding that there are nine different ways to skin a cat in that regard. And I think that just because you would do it in one way doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. The way that your manager would do it or the way that your manager manages, as long as it's effective and it's being done correctly, ethically, whatnot, then you need to kind of let go of those reins and uh, it really comes back to more so a matter of making sure that your structure from that top down to bottom up and that you have enough of those feedback loops. And I've really kind of understood more so as we've continued along this journey that it's so important for us to have really good communication, really good feedback loops when it comes to reporting, when it comes to knowing what's happening within any given department and making sure that your leaders are always on the same page with you so that they're not kind of aimlessly blinded at, you know, at really nothing. And so with that identity has very much shifted to high level vision. Making sure that that vision carries throughout the company. And the way that we do that is not by us, it's by us. Making sure that our leadership is 100% on the same page so that they can then carry that, that vision, that culture, all the way through the rest of the company.

Speaker B: Uh, culture is a really amorphous thing. It's poorly understood. My conception of culture is that it's just what is, it's, it's what valued in the organization. It's the way that people relate to one another. I've seen that the idea of trying to manage the culture typically correlates with a, uh, kind of leadership that is externalizing what is happening as opposed to viewing the culture as being the ultimate expression of me as the leader. It's a reflection in a mirror of me. The moment that you think that the culture is separate from you, it's the beginning of contributing to kind of a downward spiral.

Speaker A: Totally agree.

Speaker B: How do you think about the leadership position that you and your co founders have and how the correlation between how you're showing up, how you're relating, how you're being, and what's happening in the business?

Speaker A: And I totally agree with all of that. And I think oftentimes people consider culture as, you know, prizes and incentives and, you know, goodies, you know, swag bags, things like that. And it's very much not the case. That's not necessarily to say that it's not okay to do those things and it's fun to do, but those are fun. That's not culture. And I agree with you that it is more of an identity. It is a, uh, leadership method. It is your values. And I think that's one of the things that we really have held strong to, especially as co founders, is the values carry throughout the rest of the company because it's a reflection of us. And it goes into our hiring strategy, it goes into who we bring on and why we bring them on. And so I think that is very much a, you know, a great assessment as to, you know, what that is and as far as how it kind of correlates. We've noticed as we've continued to grow, that really the most effective way that we've been able to grow is really by letting what is be and. And what is us spread through the rest of the company. But again, it really comes down to the way that we manage our people, manage our leadership, the way that we approach problems. You know, every company has problems. And I think your values are what drive you to manage anything a certain way. And so that is your culture. So, you know, it's one of. One of the big things is, you know, that we really focus on is authenticity and transparency. And anytime we go into a meeting, we leave the ego at the door. And I think that that's one of the things that we've noticed, just that we've done inherently that has carried through the rest of the company is that collaborative, very respectful, but also a team mentality. To where if something goes awry, we're not necessarily jumping down somebody's throat, we're identifying, we're making corrective action. But ultimately that's because it doesn't necessarily mean that that person is in the wrong seat per se. It just ultimately means that there was a misstep and missteps be correct. Everybody makes mistakes and so we want to make sure that we are providing the safety, the feeling of value still persists even though you make mistakes or whatnot. So I think there's that the way that we approach anybody within the company is what really kind of resonates with the rest of, you know, how we are productive at the end of the day.

Speaker B: So what have you learned about hiring and how is the way that you relate to hiring and management different today than your first iteration of entrepreneurship with the pest control company?

Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great question. It's a totally different, you know, type of person, you know, that we're doing where you know or that we, that we hire today. You know, in the traditional pest control it's service based business, very blue collar. And so there's a different mentality that is uh, attached to that. And so the way that you approach that versus let's say a little bit more of that white collar crowd, it's less of a just go and do and more task oriented as what much of service is. And in this regard it is much more of how do we solve big problems, how do we break down those problems into more bite sized chunks, how do we, how do we approach these. So there's a lot more fluidity within it. Instead of it just kind of being directive, you know, solution, go, execute solution. It's, you know, how do we collaborate in a way that, that we're able to actually get to the root. We're asking the right questions. And so it requires a little bit of a different type of person than it does let's say on that side of it. And so that's, that has been kind of an evolution as well. But I think that's, that's where we get comfortable is that's kind of the way that we've always been as uh, far as like co founders go. And I think that that's where we really connect with a lot of the people and that's in that regard as well.

Speaker B: So uh, yeah, I could see that carrying the authenticity coming through for you. How does that manifest itself in performance management and telling someone on occasion that you're working really hard and you're doing the best that you can, and it's not enough. M. We've taken money, we have these goals. This is not optional. We need to map towards this. We have an objective standard that cannot be lowered for personal circumstances. How do you handle and navigate that challenging conversation?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Tough conversations is a must in any organization. And as a leader specifically, that can be a challenge to navigate as well. And I think that, again, I think that is one of the reasons why we've built such a great team is because the expectation early on is set to one that performance is important. Absolutely. There's no question about it. But that's not the only thing that we care about. And we often find that when we have those hard conversations or we have to approach a conversation knowing that that's going to be an uncomfortable situation for both the leader and the employee. Really the biggest thing that shines through is being authentic about it and understanding that this is nothing new. And I think the clarity around what the expectation is is so important to preempt that conversation. Because if you don't have clarity about the expectation, what are the metrics, what are you, what are their key focuses and who do they need to be in that position? Because as we all know, different departments require different personalities, different types of people, and they may be suited for one thing versus another. Some very client oriented, very customer friendly, some very back end, matter of fact. And I think that understanding what is the expectation early on will help help ease the conversation when you have to have a hard conversation. But referring to that very early and often has been a really key part in making sure that that transparency, that authenticity does shine through. Because you can then have a conversation and be more authentic with that person. And by authentic, what I mean is just be honest and truthful, you know, with that employee. If you're having to have a hard conversation, there are no surprises. You know, we both know where we are at right now, so there's no question about why we're sitting across the table from each other, you know, and I know why we're having this conversation. So let's put that aside because we know that performance needs to improve. Let's now talk about person to person. Why is it personal related? Is it a function of how you're feeling in the workspace? Is it because oftentimes, uh, what I see is when we get past the performance itself, there's often something underlying that's affecting the performance as a person. And so I think it's. There are certain things that a lot of times leaders may not be willing to dig deep enough to find out the why. And why is performance lacking? Not just that performance is lacking or it's being, you know, it's trending or whatever that may be, or trending down. Oftentimes the corrective action is something internal as opposed to it being just put more effort in. A lot of times people, uh, especially as leaders, I've seen a lot of times leaders say well pick it up, you know, or do this, you know. And it. And oftentimes I don't see it as being a task oriented thing. It could be a focus thing, it could be a mental thing, it could be an emotional thing. But oftentimes I think that is what we miss as leaders is understanding the person behind their performance. Because the person oftentimes needs to make some subtle change in their lifestyle. They might need a break or whatever that may be, but something there internally is what's driving the performance either up or down. And I think we could do better as leaders to identify that. Beyond the performance level, I see you

Speaker B: guys have this really kind of family oriented ethos and dynamic. How do you reconcile that with the uh, performance culture? Firing grandma isn't generally something that's done in a family, in a business. It becomes necessary. How do you reconcile that close knit, connected feeling with also boundaries and lines that uh, are unmovable?

Speaker A: That's a great question. Actually. I think again it comes into the expectation we actually early on had removed ourselves. Anybody that we had hired that is related to us, we would remove ourselves from, from the hiring process in general. And so now the company is obviously to the point to where we don't necessarily have a lot of the direct, you know, let's say the number of interviews that we go through. A lot of times it's more high level conversations, meet and greet or whatnot, and identifying, you know, more of the, the person itself and seeing if the core values align as opposed to skill sets and, and whatnot. But I think the biggest thing that we've really intended to be is more so just transparent and honest up front, making sure that any sorts of, let's say, conflicts of interest or whatnot can be removed before we even engage in that conversation. And then we hand it off to the appropriate person that is able to kind of see that through as opposed to us touching that. Because when you hire grandma and you have to fire Grandma, that makes the family reunion just a little bit awkward. So that's been uh, kind of an intentional thing is we want to make sure that we're removed Just enough to the point to where, hey, we don't want to deny the right person for that seat. I mean, if grandma's the best person, let's hire grandma. But I'm not going to be directly involved in the hiring process.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I didn't even mean blood relations. I just mean.

Speaker A: Yeah, I totally get it. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, in general there's this seeming juxtaposition and most people identify as either a family or a sports team. We identify as a sports team because it's just what works and suits for us. I've enjoyed this conversation. I'm enjoying seeing where you guys are heading in the industry and the doors that you're opening up and how you're using your previous contacts to improve the quality of what's available for tenants and for owners. My parting question to you is this. If you could ask every self managing landlord in the nation one question, what would it be?

Speaker A: It would probably be what do they value most out of their property? What's your intention with your property? Uh, what is your intention and does it provide you by being self managing and self managing your property? Does it provide you what the intent of having that property or I guess is the end result or is managing that by yourself giving you what you intend to achieve out of that property? I think that's probably one of the things because I think it all starts with anybody. There's a lot of accidental landlords out there, there's a lot of self managing landlords and there's going to be more as uh, the boomer generation continues to retire and continues to pass on assets to their younger, you know, to their children and their children's children, you know, and that I think for them to understand why they hold the property and what's their intention behind it is going to be a question that they need to ask themselves. Prob. Probably even more so. But if I could spark that question in them, then maybe that would potentially even help the industry. Especially when it comes to professionally managed. Like I'm a big believer that professionally managed properties are the best. Better off, uh, better off ultimately. But I think a lot of landlords are hesitant for the wrong reasons. And I think that a lot of times it comes down to the upfront dollar signs, the management fees, the uh, you know, those, and they lose sight of what is the intent of the property. Is it, you know, depreciation? Is it appreciation? Is it tax, you know, tax based? Is it, Is it uh, preservation? Is it. Yeah, exactly. Is it preservation? And I think that if they really took a look, you know, at what's their motivation or what's their intention behind having the asset. We would either see a bigger shift of those going into professionally managed to be able to allow them to achieve the goals, uh, having a rental property, you know, would achieve anybody. So take it.

Speaker B: That's a great live inquiry.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, appreciate you coming on, man. Until next time.

Speaker A: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Speaker B: That's it for this episode. Hope you enjoyed it. You can check out other episodes along the way. If you're watching this on YouTube, appreciate a subscribe any comments? I'm always here to engage. If you're listening on an audio platform, we really appreciate review. It's a great way to help other people find out about the show.