The Dina Levitan Hypothesis: Systems Thinking Scales Products and Organizations

Speaker A: In today's episode, I talk with Dina Levitan about transitioning from site reliability engineering to product management and building empowered teams. We answer some of your biggest questions about her product management journey, like how does Dina approach problem definition in product management?

Speaker B: Whether it's in engineering or product management or life generally, understanding the true nature of a problem and its root causes is one of the most interesting and exciting pieces of the puzzle for me and motivates me to do my best work.

Speaker A: What did Dina learn about subject matter expertise versus product management skills?

Speaker B: The feedback had been we need someone who is a subject matter expert in this specific slice of the industry to to be a product manager for this area because it's so specific and niche and without that specialized knowledge, they're doomed to fail. And I'm proud to say that after the first round of our engagement concluded, our client as well as the CEO of the company were convinced that that is not the case and that actually we as product managers with, uh, discipline and rigor of the product science method and bringing a critical, uh, eye, we're able to make significant impact.

Speaker A: And how does Dina apply systems thinking from her SRE background to product management?

Speaker B: One of the questions I ask myself when I'm working on a, uh, product problem is how can I systematize the best practices and the issues that we're seeing here so that we can refer remove that problem and never have it happen again? Uh, that's one of those SRE principles that I like to keep top of mind. What can we do structurally? Are the incentives misaligned, for example, between multiple teams? Is there like a missing feedback loop between different parts of the system?

Speaker A: Hi and welcome to the Product Science Podcast where we're helping startup founders and product leaders build high growth products, products, teams and companies through real conversations with people who have been there and aren't afraid to share the lessons learned from their failures along the way. I'm, um, your host, Holly Hester Riley, founder of the Product Science Group. This week's episode is the Dina Levitan Hypothesis. Systems Thinking Scales, Products and organizations. Dina Levitan is the founder and principal of Chill Labs and principal Product Consultant for the Product Science Group. With a computer science background from MIT and eight years as a site reliability engineer at Google, managing large scale distributed systems for products like Google Ads, Gmail and Calendar, Dina brings a unique systems thinking approach to product management. She's also an MBA graduate who has successfully navigated the transition from engineering to consulting to product leadership. With that, let's go to the conversation with Dina.

Speaker C: Welcome Dina, to the Product Science podcast.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Holly. It's great to be here.

Speaker C: I'm really excited to have you. I'd love to hear a little bit more from you about your journey here.

Speaker A: How did you get to this place?

Speaker B: My name is Dina Levitan. I am the founder and principal of Chill Labs, uh, lead product consultant for the Product Science group. So I've been working with Holly for over two years now. I'm based out of Seattle, Washington and my background is actually in computer science. I studied EECs at MIT and I spent the first eight years of my career working as a site reliability engineer at Google, managing large scale distributed software systems for products like Google Ads, Gmail and Calendar. I served as a technical leader during that time and during that time I decided to focus my efforts more on the business side, getting closer and closer to the customer. And I pursued my MBA part time at the University of Washington Foster School of Business. Around that time I also dipped my toe into the consulting world, joining a local boutique firm. And I found that I loved the variety of projects and, and getting a chance to partner with clients to move their business forward. After my time in consulting, I was hooked with the startup world. Uh, I actually first met Holly when I was working as a product manager under her at a B2B SaaS developer productivity startup. In early 2022, I struck out on my own as an independent consultant and founded Chill Labs. I loved working with Holly at that startup and I was thrilled to join the product science team soon after that.

Speaker C: Yeah, and I was thrilled to have you. I love your journey and um, you know, I love getting to work with you. I would be interested to hear more about what drew you to product management. What do you love about product management?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think coming from the engineering world there's a lot of parallels and you know, with you coming up, uh, from the chemical engineering side, we've had fun talking about complicated diagrams and working with people. I am really drawn to being part of the problem definition process. It's a joke for me actually. I had a little magnet that I print out as swag that says what is the problem we are trying to solve? During meetings at Google, I would sometimes hand them out when we needed to recenter. Whether it's in engineering or product management or life generally, understanding the true nature of a problem and its root causes is one of the most interesting and exciting pieces of the puzzle for me and motivates me to do my best work. So being able to do that as a product manager has been really fulfilling.

Speaker C: So product management really brings together your focus on understanding the problem, uh, with your skills in engineering and gives you a chance to apply it in new ways. It sounds like you also really love consulting, so what about that draws you to it?

Speaker B: I really love the variety that comes along with consulting work. Being able to apply my skills to a new problem space and just drawing lessons from one area and applying them to new ones. As a consultant, I've been able to construct engagements such that I'm able to work with clients on a part time basis. It's great to see how organizations these days are deriving so much value from, from working with fractional experts. And what I found is that even though I'm not working a conventional full time role, I see how the clients are able to gain benefit and value from the hours that I spend, which is very gratifying. Personally, it's been really wonderful for me as a mom to two young children to be able to share my skills and expertise with the world while being able to be more present with my girls, my family and my community.

Speaker C: That's a really motivating thing for me as well and a big part of why I started the Product Science group. I'm curious if you're open to talking a little bit more about that.

Speaker B: Sure, yeah. I think, you know, one of the reasons that I was drawn to first working with you, Holly, was one of the early conversations in which we talked about our journeys in the professional world along with being a mom and working together to make it work for everybody in the family and the company and seeing how we are able to kind of balance those two things. And it's, you know, I've heard a lot of different phrases. Work life integration is one of my favorites. Um, but really being able to be present for my kids and having headspace to do what I think they need in order to be the best versions of themselves is something that is very challenging in a text. Typical multiple hours working kind of situation.

Speaker C: Yeah. And did you work full time for portions of your motherhood?

Speaker B: I did, yeah. So when I was working, uh, in consulting, I was working a full time role and also at the startup, um, I definitely found, you know, with challenges with daycare being closed during COVID and everything, um, it was an extra special challenge. Now having two kids, it's really just seeing the extra time that I have and the um, extra headspace that I have to be present with them and do activities with them has uh, made it all worth it.

Speaker C: I totally understand that because I feel similarly, I Know, I'm able to bring them to some of their activities and be involved in doctor's visits and things like that that were frankly pretty hard to work into the day when I had a, uh, full time corporate job.

Speaker B: 100%, that's exactly how I feel.

Speaker C: So I feel like we're pretty lucky and I hope that more people can follow this path successfully because it's been a really rewarding one and I'm excited that that's working out for you as well.

Speaker B: Thanks. Yeah, I too wish that more people had this opportunity and you know, I want to do my part to make it possible for others around me.

Speaker C: Uh, switching gears a little bit, I thought maybe we could talk a little bit about some of the work you've done with the Product Science group. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about the project you've been working on lately.

Speaker B: Sure, yeah. So most recently I have been working with a, uh, B2B SaaS fintech company. So I've been working as the lead product manager with Holly. And before that I'd worked on many SaaS projects and a number of B2B, uh, organizations. But finance was a new realm for me. So I was kind of building from my basic MBA accounting and finance knowledge and getting to learn a whole lot in a short amount of time. One of the special memories for me on this project was when we did an uh, in person workshop. It was amazing to bring together the subject matter experts on the product side and the specific slice of finance where that company's product sits. Uh, so there were three products experts, myself, Holly and our client, as well as 3 finance, uh, specifically hedge accounting experts. And it just so happened that all six of us were women and that was just amazing. And we had such a good time working together and diving deep into this pretty technical material and getting area. Uh, that was really a challenge for the company. Helping to move

Speaker C: was really enriching to see the people in the room and watch them, you know, own their expertise and know that also I felt like it was a space where it felt more comfortable to be a whole person. I remember we had a conversation ahead of time about how people were going to dress and um, I believe, uh, I had already gotten on the plane and it was too late for me to change my plans. But uh, everyone else was wearing sneakers.

Speaker B: Love sneakers. Yeah, it was great.

Speaker C: Yeah. So that was really wonderful. I'm curious to hear, uh, a little more about what it was like ramping up so quickly in a very complex area. Is that something that you Felt any difficulty around.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think one of the kind of patterns that I've seen in the consulting world is really needing to absorb a lot of information across a broad swath of the space in a short amount of time. One of the parts, uh, of that for me that I really enjoy is kind of getting to the core pieces of what is the information needed to move the ball, to get the project moving. So I never really feel like I, um, am going to be the subject matter expert in that area. And we rely on having that subject matter expertise at our clients or within the user customer base to leverage. But being able to kind of get familiar with the concepts, with the lingo terminology and just key concepts, it is, it is a fast ramp up. You know, we, uh, at MIT we said it's like drinking from a fire hose. And it does feel a little bit like that, I would say the first few weeks or months in a, a new consulting engagement. But you know, I just try to stay focused on what are the goals that the client is trying to achieve and how can I help them do that in the most efficient way possible.

Speaker C: And do you know if that's something that your clients have had difficulty, uh, with as well? Like, did you ever face skepticism that you'd be able to handle the subject matter for your client engagements?

Speaker B: Definitely, yeah. I think one of the challenges is, you know, every individual organization has its own unique complexities and challenges and nuances, and in that organization's world they're quite unique. And you know, there's a lot of skepticism that somebody, A, coming from the outside will be able to understand and work within it, and B, that someone without expertise in that area will be able to make an impact on this project. I think we had a little bit of both. In particular, this area being quite technical in nature. My technical background and kind of structured thinking was really helpful towards getting on board and adding value pretty quickly. One of the things that the client shared with us after the fact was in that area, the feedback had been we need someone who is a subject matter expert in this specific slice of the industry to be a product manager for this area because it's so specific and niche and without that specialized knowledge, they're doomed to fail. And I'm proud to say that after the first round of our engagement concluded, our client as well as the CEO of the company were convinced that that is not the case. And that actually we as product managers, with, uh, discipline and rigor of the product science method and bringing a critical eye, we're able to make significant impact even though we didn't have those years of expertise in the financial industry.

Speaker C: And I would go so far as to say a really impactful impact that you were able to bring to light some things that, in ways that others didn't know how to look at it because of your product background.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I was able to frame the problem in a way that hadn't been considered before for the organization and bring both the quantitative and qualitative evidence together in ways that really um, supported our hypothesis and um, kind of provided a uh, landing point, a ah, starting point for a new stream of work to kick off and uh, initiative to proceed.

Speaker C: And the client told me that this was the first time in a very long time that they felt like they had a clear path forward for this area of the business. And it was really wonderful watching that come to life.

Speaker B: Yeah, it was a really fun project and I especially liked having the opportunity to work together and to work with really amazing client subject matter experts, um, in the room and virtually to learn something new and to apply uh, my knowledge to a new area.

Speaker C: I guess that's a good place for us to uh, dive in a little bit into what you love about working with the Product Science Group's clients.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think for me um, becoming a trusted partner to our clients is really rewarding. So being able to kind of ramp up, show the unique perspective that we can bring to the problem space and start to share some, you know, some wisdom, some experience, some uh, things we've learned the hard way with the client. As we start to get deeper in an engagement. I know that for me one of the more fun aspects of the job is facilitating workshops and seeing how ideas from each participant build on top of each other and help us get to a clear path forward. That's something that the Product Science Group really emphasizes and I think does very well. And it's also just really gratifying to see a new idea or concept, how it has the ability to change the frame that the problem is viewed upon and help move something that might have been stuck. So I think for me working with Product Science clients, it's been really fun to use my experience and to kind of develop those long, long term relationships and serve as a sounding board and advisor to companies that are trying to grow and uh, succeed.

Speaker C: Absolutely. I think, uh, you know, the clients are really happy to have you working with them. I'm curious to hear a bit more about some of your other experiences in your career. You spent a number of years as a site reliability engineer how has that influenced the way that you work?

Speaker B: So after I graduated uh, with my degree in computer science, I took one class on distributed systems during my master's program and, and somehow ended up as a site reliability engineer at uh, Google fresh out of school. It was not something that I had planned but it turned out to be a really good fit for me for the first part of my career because really what being an SRE is about is approaching problems from a systems thinking perspective. So getting to what are the root causes of the problems, what are the interrelated dynamics that lead to the situation that we're facing and how does changing, you know, one of them or some of them, uh, affect the overall whole. So I, I, you know I really learned a lot. The principles of site reliability engineering are kind of strong within me, you know, I think they'll be part of me for a long time. Um, I had the opportunity to contribute to the site reliability engineering book that came out of Google a, uh, few years back and had a chance to kind of see how building a ah, real life production system can be approached rigorously and systematically with an eye towards being reliable. So I like to think of products as, you know, they're also a system of different pieces of software and uh, user interactions and organizational uh, dynamics and I like to use some of the techniques from my time as an sre, um, as a product manager today. Additionally, uh, when I was an sre I really thought about the user experience, especially in a few areas such as performance latency, those kinds of metrics. That was my bread and butter and you know, a query flows through a complex series of services and issues can arise when no one person or no one team is really taking responsibility for the holistic big picture and what happens between those interfaces. I think as a product manager a lot of my role is to think about what are the interfaces between the teams and the humans involved, the customers, the systems and really having oversight and ownership over that whole picture. So not only being aware of the technical side, the technical systems that enable the software, also managing the human systems across the teams. From my years of experience in SRE and as a product manager, scaling software is hard and ah, scaling organizations is also very hard. So I love being able to use the lessons I learned from my time as an SRE to help products and systems continue to grow and scale.

Speaker C: I'm curious if you're able to give us any sort of specific examples. Um, as myself not having ever been an sre, what might have been a way that you apply some of your SRE experiences to product?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think one example um, of a project that I worked on when I was an SRE has to do with how queries were routed for, for the Google Calendar product all across the world. You have 20 plus data centers distributed across the globe and um, multiple billions of users and a lot of um, data that needs to be consistent across each of those experiences. When I think about product management I think a lot about consistency of experience. Um, and I think that for me the project that I was working on to kind of help scale Google Calendar and make sure that each of the users was having a fast response time and ah, a smooth web experience is something that I take forward with me as a product manager thinking through what are the elements of the journey, not just how fast is their query being responded to and is that designed in a reliable way, but also along each part of that user's journey are they having a consistent experience that is reflective of the product that we want to be building. So I think one of the questions I ask myself when I'm working on a uh, product problem is, is how can I systematize the best practices and the issues that we're seeing here so that we can remove that problem and never have it happen again? Uh, that's one of those S.R.E. uh, principles that I like to keep top of mind. What can we do structurally? Are the incentives misaligned, for example between multiple teams? Um, is there a missing uh, a feedback loop between different parts of the system? I like to think about that as ways to solve the underlying discrepancies so that the product can function smoothly.

Speaker C: It reminds me of a part of chemical engineering called uh, process control that I uh, think has some similar principles where you're looking at a system the way we look at products and you're saying how do we identify when something's gone out of line and how do we bring it back as fast as possible and how do we squash those problems for the future so that they're not happening again or they're being caught really early.

Speaker B: That's right. And uh, one of the sayings um, as an SRE is to automate yourself out of a job and as a product manager I don't think uh, that's really a realistic goal. But putting systems and processes in place, uh, between teams and pieces of the, of the product is one way as a product manager to scale your impact and, and help the product grow independently to the extent that is possible.

Speaker C: Awesome. Well I think the last thing that I want to ask you is actually as a person, you know, with your background, uh, having moved into product management the way that you did, is there anything about product management that surprised you that you sort of, you know, weren't expecting to be the way it turns out that it is?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think one aspect of product management that is similar to site reliability engineering and many other fields is that so many people define product management differently. Um, there's no, I wouldn't say there's one definition of what does a product manager do? It kind of depends on the situation and the organization and their practices. Um, and, you know, there's a maturity matrix. You know, where are they in their journey of product. Product. Just like in sre, we had a concept of a maturity matrix. You know, where we are in terms of the reliability and the monitoring and the performance, all of those angles. When it comes to product management processes, there's also a maturity matrix. You know, how closely are the engineers and products and design teams working together? How continuously are they practicing discovery? Questions like that, and, uh, being able to help clients get further along. That maturity matrix is something that over time, I've enjoyed. But it's also been surprising to kind of see the new and different ways that people practice product management in their organizations.

Speaker C: I hear that. I think, uh, for the first many years in product management, I was also surprised by that. It took a while for me to sort of settle into my understanding of the discomfort of it being different everywhere, you know, so that, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think something that over time I've understood and has helped me, uh, especially as a consultant, is that while the names for these things might be different and the intricacies and nuances might be different, there's often shared underlying processes or principles that can, uh, be referenced to help orient individuals onto how best to approach. So whether it be putting in one of your favorite strategy frameworks or even just approaching a retrospective in a new way for the team to learn and grow, there are tools that can be used to reduce some of that variability and become kind of a more consistent product team.

Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. So I would love to know where people can find you if they want to learn more or follow you.

Speaker B: Sure, yeah. I have my personal website, denalevitan.com uh, and if you go to denalavatan.com Chill Labs, you'll learn more about Chill Labs. I also make a cameo at the Product Science Group's website, so look out for me there as well. Feel free to give me a follow on LinkedIn as myself and as ah, Chill labs would love to uh, love to connect.

Speaker C: Awesome. Well thank you so much Dina. It's been a pleasure talking to you today.

Speaker B: Thank you so much Holly and I look forward to working on more projects together.

Speaker C: Yeah, me too.

Speaker A: What great insights from Dena Levitan. Next up, our lab notes segment where I and my team at the product science group discuss our key thoughts and takeaways from the conversation. In our first lab note, lead product designer Mark Inakia talks about the importance of centering the human element in continuous discovery and delivery.

Speaker D: So that part of Deena's experience as a site reliability engineer and talking about specifically how they followed the user journey as a query, went through the different points of their system and that uh, one of the main things they were focusing on was how to keep that consistent customer experience and have a great customer experience consistently through all of those points. I thought was interesting because that could be an area that is quite technical and I think that it would be easy to forget the human element in that workflow. But something that stood out to me is that that was still so core to how they were working.

Speaker A: So lab note 608.1 is in continuous discovery and delivery. Centering the human is key. In our second lab note, product management coach John Haggerty discusses how teams with diverse skill sets and perspectives foster greater

Speaker E: understanding, embrace the differences that are there that make such a powerful team. That's why, you know, like Marty talks about working in the core trio of uh, product discovery and uh, product engineering and ux. You know, when I talk about data products, I talk about our AI products. You bring in that data science, you get that team of four. You have four different worldviews. There's that you don't all think the same way, you don't see through the same polarized lenses. You haven't experienced life in the same way. So therefore your opinions are gonna be different. That's why being naturally and natively who you are in a, in a business situation can help foster and develop just a greater understanding of what's actually being said, what's happening and just free up those ideas and that creativity and everything else that goes with that of just being you.

Speaker A: So that brings us to lab note 608.2. Empowered teams with diverse skill sets and perspectives foster greater understanding. In our third lab note, Mark shares his insights on evidence based product strategy.

Speaker D: They had this sort of limiting belief that you really need a subject matter expert in that area because it's so niche and so specific in order to make any headway. So without having that expertise, uh, anyone that you bring in is not really going to be able to make an impact and understand the area, which turned out to not be the case. And I thought that was interesting because the energy of saying, you know, if you don't have a PM that's a subject matter expert in this, they're doomed to fail. It's very similar type of energy to saying, you know, we don't need to gather evidence, we already know what we need to know about our customers, about the problem space, et cetera.

Speaker A: That leads to lab note 608.3. Gathering evidence leads to sound product strategy even in areas where pre existing expertise is limited. In our fourth lab note, Mark discusses the connection between empowered teams and innovation.

Speaker D: You can bring a level of automation and reliability through that automation. But the truth is that even in science there is still an element of art, which is that human element of creativity. For companies that maybe just want to stabilize their product development and get a better practice going, but aren't necessarily looking to innovate wildly in the space, they might think, well, we don't need to put as much of a premium on creativity and on the human element because all we really need is to get a stronger sort of formula in place. And science can help us with that, data can help us with that. But the reality is that when our clients are asking us to come in and help them introduce evidence based product strategy or indeed any company wants to introduce and up level a new type of product strategy that is innovation.

Speaker A: So lab note 608.4 is building empowered teams requires both science and art. And in our final lab note, John discusses how empathy and contextual understanding remain uniquely human as AI advances.

Speaker E: What won't be able to be automated are things where empathy comes into play. Contextual understanding. There will always need to be that human in the middle for the decision making the decision points in there. Will the roles change? Yes, absolutely. They'll change and evolve. That's why knowing how AI works, getting ahead of it, understanding it and figuring out how you want to bring it into your role today is a very powerful way to go about it.

Speaker A: So the final lab note is 608.5. Empathy and contextual understanding remain uniquely human. It was such a pleasure to talk with Dina Levitan about her journey from site reliability engineering to product management and consulting. You can find dena@uh, dinalevitan.com and connect with her on LinkedIn. Don't forget to check out Chill Labs@chillaborate.com that's uh. C-H-I L L A B O R-A-T E.com I hope you enjoyed this episode. The Product Science Podcast is brought to you by the Product Science Group. We teach startup founders and product leaders how to use the Product Science Method to discover the strongest product opportunities and lay the foundations for high growth products, teams and companies. We do this through community coaching, training and consulting. Learn more at.

Speaker F: Ah.

Speaker A: Productsciencegroup.com enjoying this episode? Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss our next episode. Or Visit us@productsciencepodcast.com to find show notes or sign up for more information from me and our guests. If you like the show, please leave us a review. It goes a long way towards helping others find us. Now go out there and experiment.

Speaker F: Sam.