The Ha Nguyen Hypothesis: Passion, Commitment, and Community will Drive Your Product Career to New Places

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: In today's episode, I talk with HA Nawin about her career covering both high growth startups, fractional product leadership and community building. We answer some of your biggest questions about ha's journey. Like, what was it like being one of the first six PMs at eBay,

Speaker A: not knowing what PM was, but like many of our early peers, we just dived right into it and learned the job, you know, uh, as we were trying to figure out what it was, it was an incredibly rewarding time.

Speaker B: Why did HA leave venture capital?

Speaker A: I do think that the perception from the outside is that venture is glamorous. And I think there are parts of the role that can be glamorous. I think in 2020, during the pandemic, I was starting to feel like while I loved what I was doing, I just didn't see myself as a career VC, you know, for the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years.

Speaker B: And um, why did HA Co found women in product?

Speaker A: And ah, as we know from the data, right, early career PMs, 50, 50, male, female, and then as you move more senior, that percentage starts shrinking for women and binary people and folks of color. And so we really wanted to change that.

Speaker B: Hi and welcome to the Product Science podcast where we're helping startup founders and product leaders build high growth products, teams and companies through real conversations with people who have been there and aren't afraid to share the lessons learned from their failures along the way. I'm your host, Holly Hester Riley, founder of the Product Science Group. This week's episode is the Hard now when Hypothesis, passion, commitment and community will drive your product career to new places. Han Nawin is the founder and managing partner of NextStep, which supports early stage founders on their journey to become master operators, company builders and people leaders. NextStep offers fractional and advisory COO services. Ha, uh, has 24 years of deep expertise as a startup executive, building and scaling startups to delight both customers and employees. She was most recently Chief Experience Officer at swimpli and prior to that was a founding partner at Sparrow Ventures, an early stage venture capital firm. Investing in the things that make life worth living. Our well being, work and purpose, and human connection. She holds a BS from Penn's Wharton School and an MBA from Harvard. With that, let's go to the conversation with ha. Welcome HA to the Product Science podcast.

Speaker C: Hi Holly.

Speaker A: I'm so excited to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me.

Speaker B: You're welcome. So there's so many interesting things that we can talk about today and um, I think it's Going to be really fun for our listeners to hear more about your journey. The early years in product and then the things you're up to now with community building, with fractional work, the work you've done as an advisor, um, even your stint in venture capital, there's lots of really fun stuff to talk about. Why don't we begin with a little bit of a journey? Where did you first come into the product world?

Speaker A: Thanks for asking. So I was in business school in the late 90s at Harvard Business School. During that time, I saw the Internet boom happening and I'm like, you know, I really think that this is going to be a big thing. I need to get out to Silicon Valley right away. I was incredibly fortunate. The Monday after graduation, I joined this small startup called ebay. And then at the time, ebay was about 200 people. I was one of the first six PMs that they ever hired. Um, not knowing what PM was, but like many of our early peers, we just dived right into it and learned the job as we were trying to figure out what it was. Um, and so it was an incredibly rewarding time. I was there for five years, worked on a lot of the early iconic features of ebay, worked on the eBay, PayPal integration, owned all of, like, selling payments, checkout. Um, and then after five years at eBay, I left for the startup world. But yeah, that's how I got my startup is early ebay. You know, saw the company from 200 to 7,000 people.

Speaker B: Wow, that 200 to 7,000. What was the most surprising thing about that growth journey?

Speaker A: I would say that the company changed probably every six to 12 months. Right. I mean, when you go through that period of hyper growth, the company that you join is certainly not the same company in six months, in a year and 18 months, three years, five years. So, and I, I got a chance to witness it all. Um, so I remember in the first two, three years, it was incredible. We were just moving as fast as we can. I don't know of a single person at ebay who wasn't working less than 60 hours a week. But we were all in it for the mission. You know, we couldn't wait to, like, bound out of bed, so excited to get to work, because we knew that the work that we did mattered, you know, that we were positively impacting the lives of millions of our ebay community sellers and buyers. But then as we just started getting bigger, you know, things just started slowing down a little bit more. I felt like every six months that there was A reorg. You had to get used to the reorg, um, uh, over time, right? Unless you sort of grew within the company, like you know, your scope just got narrower and narrower and then you, there were a lot more people that you had to coordinate with. So that was, I don't know if it was surprising but certainly something that like I witnessed being part of a hyper growth journey, you just sort of see that while you're growing probably faster, um, and learning faster than you could in any other environment because of the hypergrowth, you also see the evolutions of the company.

Speaker B: So you said after that you went back to startups. What drove that change for you?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think towards the end I was getting a bit frustrated that everything just took much longer. Um, and then I felt like I was ready to sort of increase my scope and my impact, albeit at a smaller company. Um, however, like I really wanted to have more influence over the direction of the company, not just the direction of our products. And so after that I ended up joining this startup called Oodle. It was a greylock backed startup and I led all of content and product for them. I ended up getting promoted into a VP role, um, and that was a great journey trying to figure out product market fit, um, and the evolution there. After Oodle, I ended up taking three more VP of product roles before I shifted my career into venture capital. Loved the startup world. It's not for everybody. Um, what I loved about it is that you do end up wearing multiple hats. So even though I led product, sometimes content, sometimes growth, sometimes customer, uh, service, um, there were always problems and needs within the company and I was always going to be the first to like raise my hand saying oh, we don't have a leader in that area. Let me take that on. Um, and I, I, you know, I, I, I think combination of being growth minded but then maybe having adhd, I couldn't sit still, I couldn't just like only learn one function or discipline. I needed to learn it all. Um, and in a startup environment it's a lot easier to take on that expanded scope assuming you're good. But oftentimes, you know, um, startups might not have the right leaders in place and that's where you can make the most impact, is by raising your hand and saying I'll take that on too.

Speaker B: I'd love to hear a little more about how you successfully did that because I feel like especially as, you know, a woman or non binary folk in product, sometimes we feel like we can raise our hands and say hey, we're willing to try that or to fill that gap, and we get a no. Uh, how did you get yeses?

Speaker A: First of all, I do think that you have to be incredibly good at your function and what you do, right? You have to drive towards outcomes. You have to be a bit indispensable. For me, I probably worked harder, um, than just about any person in the company. You know, maybe sometimes as hard as the, uh, founder, CEO. Over time, you know, uh, the function of the role that you're owning gets easier, right? You figured it out, and so you can actually drive impact faster. And then for me, I felt like maybe Harvard, um, taught me this, but I was never afraid to ask. Um, and, um, I just feel like if you are in the right culture, working for the right manager who's supportive, you drive to its outcomes, they have to say yes, they don't want to lose you. And then, of course, and I've written about this, and I've spoken about this, you have agency. If they're not going to be supportive of you and your career and what you want and you know that you've done a great job, then we can always walk. And the times I've walked, I've felt like, okay, I kind of learned everything that I could cure and I'm ready for a new challenge, and I'm not maybe given the opportunity to expand scope even more. And I'll give you an example of that. So, um, my fourth VP of Product role, I was talking to my CEO about taking on more responsibilities, uh, beyond just VP of Product. I wanted to be COO or gm, and she was incredibly supportive, and she wanted to, you know, to help me get there. And she, you know, she and I talked through a plan, and then I felt like it just wasn't happening fast enough. So six months later, I just got a bit antsy and I felt like, okay, if it wasn't going to happen fast enough, and I had already been at the company for almost four years, then it was time for me to leave. And so I, so I left. I took a sabbatical. But that sort of, you know, combination of, uh, factors led me into a completely different career pivot, and I moved into venture capital. To me, it's just summarize, um, through your question. It's like, be incredibly good at what you do. Startups give you the opportunity to have expanded scope, work for a great boss who's supportive of your career. Don't be afraid to ask. And then finally, if they're not going to support you and what you need Then you might need to make the decision to walk.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that resonates so much with my own experiences as well, and I'm sure a lot of other people's. So how did you make the transition to venture capital?

Speaker A: Thanks for asking that question. Okay, so after that last VP product role, I did some reflection and I just realized that I just didn't have another VP of Product role in me. I had done it four different times. I really was ready for a new career challenge. I really did want to be a COO gm. I just didn't know how to break through because you'd look at my resume and to be quite honest, I could interview for almost any VP of product job because I had four different stints as a VP of product, but nobody would interview me for a COO role. So what I decided to do is I took my first sabbatical, uh, and this was about 2015 and I just started having lots of conversations with folks in my network. I'd reach out to my old ebay friends and colleagues who have since gone on to do some amazing things in a variety of different industries and roles and I would just pick their brains. Um, and in one of those conversations an old boss from my ebay days said, oh, I just joined a capital firm as one of their GPS and I'd love for you to like come and hang out with us here since you're, you know, uh, taking a break and then work with our portfolio companies on product because that's what your expertise is. And I was like, oh, that sounds pretty cool. Um, and so I ended up joining as an EIR and was able to drive impact right away. And so six months later they gave me a full time role as an operating partner. And then two years after that, that same ex manager, uh, of mine at ebay who was in venture, she and I started our own venture firm spinning out of our current one, um, and the venture firm was Spiro Ventures. And so I spent ah, a couple more years, um, not only as an operating partner, but also as an investing partner as well and uh, writing checks into seed, ah, stage and early series A companies. And so it was an incredible detour. Spent five years in venture altogether. Learned an incredible amount, I mean so much more than I think I would have learned had I joined yet another startup in an executive role.

Speaker B: I'm curious to hear more. I feel like I've talked to, you know, a handful of people anyways in product who moved into venture. But um, it's rare to talk to someone who Then spun off their own, uh, venture capital firm. So how did you make the decision to do that?

Speaker A: The firm that I had joined was Omitteira Network. For those of you who might not know Omidira Network, it's Pierre Omidier's investment firm. Pierre is the founder of ebay. The brand was very much centered around philanthropy, even though there was a venture capital division, because Omidir, um, network wrote a lot of grants into nonprofits. And so what we were finding was that if we were going to be responsible for generating venture returns, we needed to separate ourselves from sort of the brand of philanthropy.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker A: Because we wanted the best founders to pitch to us. And so we were able to get approval from Pierre and the board to spin out of Omidrio Network. And Piero was sole LP limited partner of our new venture firm. We named it Spiro Ventures. Spiro is Latin for hope. Pierre anchored us with $100 million fund. So that was pretty nice for a first time fund. Uh, but he believed in our thesis, which is that the best companies of our generation have purpose at its core. So to drive impact, you had to have purpose. So example companies were ebay, Tesla, Airbnb, purpose at its core. And yet at scale, um, you know, you could drive both purpose impact and incredible returns.

Speaker B: That sounds like an amazing opportunity. How long did you do that for?

Speaker A: So five years in total. A lot of people do ask me like, so why don't you leave? You know, um, because I do think that the perception from the outside is that venture is glamorous. And I think there are parts of the role that can be glamorous. I think in 2020, during the pandemic, I was starting to feel, while I loved what I was doing, I just didn't see myself as a career VC, you know, for the next five, 10, 15, 20 years, every three or four years, you're raising another fund and then you're investing in that fund and then you're continuing to manage the portfolio companies that you had invested in and you. But you're constantly raising a new fund. And so it's just this career role. And as I took a step back, I was feeling a little bit of burnout. Listening to five to seven zoom pitches a day during the pandemic, and I was like, you know, I really miss operating, I really miss building, and I just don't know if I wanted to be a career vc. So all of those forces were kind of dancing in my mind. The craziest thing happened. The founders of a marketplace startup called swimpli pitches to me. And for those who might not be familiar with swimpli, airbnb of swimming pools, they hit lightning in a bottle during the pandemic. Blew up like crazy. Went from like 0 to 6 million in gross bookings volume in the course of three months. After that summary, the founders, um, went and decided that they were going to raise venture capital. And I was One of the VCs that they pitched and I had an amazing connection, um, with one of the founders, um, and I really love the company and I even took them into due diligence and to a partner meeting, um, um, for a possible investment. Uh, but anyways, long story short, I stayed in touch with the founders. They then said, hey, would you consider joining us? You love marketplaces, you are a builder, um, you love swimpli. And there was just something that pulled me into the opportunity and after talking to my husband about it, and I even did end up talking to my partner about it, um, you know, I decided to go for it and I said yes. And I joined, uh, them as their chief experiences officer, um, but essentially a COO role where I led things that I hadn't led before. Operations, supply side growth, community, HR and people. Um, and it was an incredible role at like a hyper growth startup that like really accelerated due to the pandemic. I was on the other side of the table from vc. I was helping to fundraise, I was uh, writing the board decks, I was writing the investor memos. It was an incredibly, uh, rewarding experience. Although I would say that I was much better equipped in taking that role, having been a VC and sort of seeing dozens and dozens, if not hundreds of pitch decks, board decks, investor memoirs, et cetera. So I felt like my whole journey prepared me for, for my COO role.

Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, that's wonderful. So how long did you end up being in that position?

Speaker A: I was there for two years. It was a career highlight. Then after I left I took another sabbatical and did um, some more soul searching around what I wanted to do next. I'll let the audience in on a little secret. I just turned 51, but at the time I was almost 50 and I was starting to reflect on, well, what do I really want to do in the next 10, 20 years? And I felt like I didn't have the stamina anymore to be all in on one company as an operator. Um, and so I quickly made the decision that I just wanted to do startup consulting. And that's what I'm doing now. So I recruited a business partner, his Name is Garrett Kelly. He um, he and I were so complimentary. We work so well together and he's a thought partner to me. But right now we're, between the two of us, we're supporting about half a dozen mission driven and values aligned founders, um, build incredible world changing companies. And I think that this is what I was meant to do, at least at this stage of my career. I don't see myself going back into venture or an operating role, um, anytime in the near future, if ever again.

Speaker B: So I love this through line of uh, you know, I got to a point and then I took a sabbatical and I really assessed what I want to be doing. What do you think helped you be able to take that leap? To say I don't necessarily know where I'm going but I'm just going to stop and think about it.

Speaker A: Yeah. The first sabbatical was I just knew that I just could not do another VP product role. And so I'm like, I don't, you know, I just need the time and the space to explore other things. In the second sabbatical that was number one to give myself a mental health break because I was working 80, 90 hours a week at that startup. Because when it's a hyper growth startup and you don't have a lot of resources and you're playing all the roles, um, it was an incredibly rewarding but um, mentally and emotionally draining time. So I wanted to give myself the break, separate myself a bit from my identity which was the company at the time and then just start exploring. And quickly, early on I made the decision that it was time to bet on myself. My whole career was betting on these other companies and helping uh, you know, to hopefully create the impact to lead to the success of some of the companies that I was part of. But now I'm m like it's time to bet on myself. It's incredibly scary um, to go off on your own, right, because now you have nothing to lean on but yourself and in my case my business partner and it is very entrepreneurial. You're going 0 to 1 trying to figure out what is it that we're offering into the world. How are we going to get our first set of clients, how are we going to like set up our entity, um, and what's our process and how do we run this and how do we know that we're going to be good at like being able to parachute in into a company and drive immediate impact and yet support multiple companies at the same time. So we had to figure Out a lot of things. Just like any startup founder word. Um, but it was a point where I was just ready to bet on myself. I have a big network, I have a lot of great experience. I know I drove impact at these companies. Why can't I achieve that same level of success, um, in working for myself and betting on myself?

Speaker B: What do you tell people who are thinking about whether they want to make that leap? Because I know there's a lot, especially these days, more and more people are saying, hey, I'm thinking maybe I want to go fractional. Um, how do you help them?

Speaker A: Okay, so I'm going to give you um, some perspectives that might be a little bit controversial. Great. I don't think that Fractional is for 80, 90% of the people that um, I'm talking to that are looking to explore it. Um, especially when I ask them like, what's your why you know and why you're, are you during this? Like it feels to me that a lot of people are exploring it now because they were laid off and because you know, it's a way for them to tide themselves over until they figure out like, you know, the next full time role while you can do that. And of course I'm supportive of anybody who wants to go that route. I do feel like, just like what I would coach um, startup founders when I was a vc, which is you should really do this because you can't imagine doing anything else, you know, um, you know that you felt like that this is what you were meant to do at this time, time, um, and that you have something incredibly unique to offer, you know, so it's like the why, the why now and the why you advice that I would give prospective startup founders. It's kind of the same here. It's like why you and why now? So of course you can do it for a short period of time. But I do think that it's hard. It's, you know, going to 0 to 1 is hard. I think what's hard is for people is landing deals and you know, and uh, or deals clients, I guess. Um, so you just have to have that sort of stamina that like, look, I can't imagine myself doing anything else because if you could imagine yourself doing something else like taking on a full time job, then just focus on taking a full time job. Because fractional work is hard. You don't get paid vacation time. You have to pay for your own benefits. You're constantly hustling right to like build your brand, build your network, land the next client and uh, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work and you have to just be passionate about the work. Yeah.

Speaker B: Part of how you make that work is your investment in community building. And I'm curious to sort of switch to talk a little bit more about that. How did you first get interested in community building and what does that look like for you?

Speaker A: The two communities that I've been part of the longest have been Women in Product and the Product Leader Summit. So for the Product Leader Summit, I think it was about eight, nine years ago, I had coffee with somebody who now I call a good friend. Um, his name is Gib Biddle. He was former VP of Product at Netflix, former CPO at Chegg. Um, when I met him he was doing a three day a week, um, interim CPO role and also doing a lot of um, speaking and coaching. But he and I grabbed coffee and we were just talking about how um, it, it's lonely at the top. It's so hard to build your network of other VPs of product and yet you know that connecting with other VPs of product is uh, a great way for you to develop perspective, talk through some of the shared challenges. I think that's how you learn and grow when you're at that level. But because the VP Product community didn't exist, we basically said let's start it. And we started with an annual conference and we, we recruited a couple of friends, um, Dan Olson, Sara Bernard and more recently Vidya Dhanamani, longtime Product leaders and execs to help us uh, work on this labor of Love project. But basically we anchor it every year around an annual conference where we bring 150 VPs of product together. It's highly curated, we bring in the best speakers. But beyond the speakers, it's amazing networking and opportunities to just like meet your peers and learn from your peers. And we've done that annual event every year now for the last eight years. We'll do our ninth Product Leader Summit next fall. For anybody who's interested in joining us who's at the VP level. Productleader summit.com um, there's an application process already up. Please apply. We would love to see you at a future one. Um, Women in Product was very much because I was connected to the mission of elevating women in tech. And as we know from the data, early career PMs, 50, 50 male, female, and then as you move more senior, that percentage starts shrinking for women, um, and binary people and folks of color. And so we really wanted to change that and so, um, a group of women, female product leaders in the industry, decided that we were going to start Women in Product. We anchored it with the annual conference, but then we started a Facebook group, started a newsletter, we started a jobs board, we started hosting events. Eventually we turned it into a nonprofit. And then how. You probably are also, um, part of the community. But today the community is 30,000 female PM strong, hopefully. I think we've been making a lot of great impact on the world, um, and allowing female PMs and product leaders to build community. Right. Like, find each other and help to support, elevate, cheer, lift each other up. And so that's why I've gotten involved in community work, is because I've been incredibly passionate about the missions and, you know, and it's a mission that I. Missions that I feel are worthy and that I want to contribute in some way. Um, when I want to sort of be in my deathbed, if you will, I just want to be able to look back and say that, okay, I create an impact in the world through the products I built, through the companies I worked for, through the communities that I built, through the people's lives who were impacted through the work that I did.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, that's just so amazing to hear.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I myself remember when women in product first started showing up, and I was like, wait, where'd this come from? Um, you know, wish it had been around when I was earlier in my product career, but it's certainly been a great place. I've participated in, uh, you know, several events and things and really appreciate, you know, its existence and its prominence now, because everybody, you know, most women that I talk to, they know about it and they're a part of it, and it's really great to see that. I'm curious if you have any, um, any advice for, you know, let's say there's some group that is trying to create this kind of community. Like, it sounds like both your main communities, you started with a conference. Um, how did you make the decision to start with a conference?

Speaker A: If community is about connection, I think that there's no substitute for bringing people together in person. Certainly you could start small with events, and I think a lot of communities start with, like, you know, small local events. And I think that that's a great way to get started, too, because conferences are a lot of work. But, yeah, if you want to sort of launch with a splash, I think that, uh, conferences are a good way to do it and then, you know, get some critical mass and then from the momentum coming out of the conference, then it can also then expand into other things. So with the product leader Summit, you know, now we have a Slack channel quarterly dinners, you know, locally. Yeah, there's a product leader summit dinner that recently happened in New York and in LA and in Boston and in Denver. And it's VPs of product who met at the conference who, you know, continue to stay in touch locally. Um, so I think that when you do a conference, it's a lot of work, so I don't recommend it for everybody, but it can make a big splash that can then just expand into other things for folks to continue to forge and strengthen those relationships. Um, even post conference.

Speaker B: Yeah. How did you fund those initial conferences?

Speaker A: A, uh, combination of sponsors and um, ticket sales.

Speaker B: So do you see like a synergy between these community investments and the fractional work that you're doing now?

Speaker A: Well, for sure. So I would say that, you know, um, number one, I think it's always helpful to build the network. When you build the network and people have seen that you have been putting the hours in to build what I call the labor of love projects, you know, um, it, it's just easier because when you need to reach out to folks for anything they want to help you, they'll pick up the phone and they'll help you. So my first few founders were actually through network connections where um, I would catch up with my network and they would ask me, well, what do you, what are you going to do next? Or what are you up to? And I would say to them, oh, I, I know what I'm up to, uh, or what I want to do next. I want to start a consulting practice where I help mission driven and values align founders to build world changing companies. In those kind of conversations, I was introduced to a bunch of founders and that was how I landed my first three clients. Uh, if you will, were just introductions to the network of like, oh, I know a, uh, founder who could really use your help.

Speaker E: Ha.

Speaker A: While I still work with those three founders today, I think that that's still the best source of client leads, if you will, is through the network. And so build the network. It really helps you down the road. Even if you don't do startup consulting like I am doing, when you want to land that next role, when you want to start a podcast and find guests, when you really want to do anything in tech that's new, um, you want to lean on your network to provide coaching and advice to open doors for you to help you get started. Don't wait until you need it build your network before you actually need to call on favors.

Speaker B: Excellent. I think we're about out of time. I want to ask where people can follow you or follow your communities if they want to get involved or learn more.

Speaker A: Thanks. Um, well, folks can always connect with me on LinkedIn. It's an easy way. Folks can also support some of the founders that I, um, am working with. Um, one pitch that I do want to give in particular before we close is for folks who are looking to build their professional network as well as their personal board of directors. Check out sidebar.com um, I've been working with sidebar for the last year and a half as their chief evangelist. And now I've expanded my role to be head of community, still as a fractional consultant. But, um, but it's just a great way to build your personal board of directors and your professional network for folks who are interested in that. And then LinkedIn DMS are great, but I also share. Um, my email address is haxtstep, which is my consultant firm. Fwd.com haxtepfwd.com so feel free to send me an email too. I'd love to hear from you.

Speaker B: Wonderful. Awesome. Thank you so much, ha. This has been such a pleasure and such a goldmine of insights for people.

Speaker A: So fun. Holly, thank you for having me on and I look forward to continuing our collaborations together.

Speaker B: What great insights from ha. Next up, our new Lab Notes segment where I and my team at the Product Science Group discuss our key thoughts and takeaways from the conversation. In our first Lab Note, I talk about how practicing continuous discovery requires intentional effort as companies scale. Even as HA said, as your scope narrows. In a company that's in hypergrowth, one of the things that can happen is you can start losing contact with customers. Where you used to be talking to customers regularly, now you know, your scope gets narrowed, other team's scope gets narrowed, and it ends up being sort of handed to a single person or a single team as like they're the ones with the customer contact. And that can be a really difficult maturation for our company because you end up having all these handoffs and that decreases the actual understanding of the customer. And so one of the things that I believe deeply is that as a company grows, you have to build structures to make sure that the continuous discovery is still happening and that people are still getting access to the customers. And you have to do it even more intentionally than in the early days when the team is small. So Lab Note 605.1 is as a company grows, you must intentionally create structure for continuous product discussion in our next lab. Note Dagont Dave, product management consultant at the Product Science Group, shares his experiences with taking on new projects inside startups.

Speaker E: I've found myself in this situation a couple of times. I was an engineering leader and there was a very challenging problem that no one really wanted to own and I raised my hand and said I think I know how to fix this. And then all of a sudden I was managing a 20 person cross functional team, um, and it was a really rewarding experience for me. And then another instance where I was working at a very early stage startup, even though I was the head of product, I identified a lot of challenges that were going to prevent us from having a successful launch and growing our and scaling our company. And so uh, I ended up getting involved with a lot of things like building business processes, setting up a customer service organization and uh, doing a lot of things that are outside of the traditional scope of being a product leader.

Speaker B: It seems like being open to new projects really helped Degant grow in his career. Thus LabNote 605.2 is Raise your hand to access new opportunities. Next up, Degant and I talk about the changing perspectives on work life balance and typical work weeks for startup team members.

Speaker E: Maybe work and personal life are more integrated than ever before and in order to be effective professionally, you need to refill your cup personally as well, right? Or, or maybe it has to do with life stages, right? If, let's say hypothetically you're an empty nester, like you might be like yeah, I'm ready to go crush it again because I don't have, you know, but uh, versus giving children at home or you have other responsibilities and things in

Speaker B: your life then I also think there may be some generational stuff about it. HA went to Silicon Valley in the 90s and a lot of the product thought leaders today are from the generation that did that and they did work these insane hours and there are still young people today who are doing that. But my understanding is that less of them do it than in older generations. Younger generations today are being more thoughtful about their work life balance and the meaning of the work that they're doing. And they're asking deeper questions about how do we make sure that if we're taking this time away from the rest of our life that it's for a mission, it's for a reason. I think that's something that is also because of the success of the prior generations that we're able to get to the point where we're asking those questions more than they might have been able to.

Speaker E: I think there's two other things. There's a change in the social contract of work in a lot of ways. There was a time where if you dedicate time and effort and energy into a company, you get rewarded through the form of promotions or uh, loyalty right on both sides and longevity. And I think that social contracts has really broken down. I think for a long time technology industry seemed to be insulated from the typical boom and bust cycles you see in a lot of industry sectors. But I think with the most recent round of layoffs, it seems like a lot of people's, that contract is kind of broken or uh, changing. And so I think people are a little more reluctant to put their all into a role or a job when there is so much uncertainty.

Speaker B: I could say more there, but I'll sum it up with this lab note 605.3. There are varied perspectives on work life, balance and startup life. In the next section, Mark Ynakia, product manager and designer Dina Levitan, lead product management consultant Dagont Dave and I talk about our paths to fractional work.

Speaker D: For me it sort of happened here and there through different jobs that I've been in and different life situations. Like working at a startup, I had to wear a lot more hats. Uh, working at a startup pre 2020in Soho, I was like running around and doing client parties and then coming back and working on graphics in the office. So it was really fun uh, and energizing. And then I've had other roles where it's a little bit closer to the. Your job is to work on this one page of the website and optimize for clicks. And for me like it's much more about a feeling, I think of feeling sort of alive, that entrepreneurial spirit, uh, that there's variation that there's uh, that I might not know what to expect because that feeling of sort of risk or uncertainty for me is really tied to creativity which I think for a lot of product people is a key part of why we get into this area where you know, we want to make things, we want to create things that people use and hopefully enjoy. So I'm in a similar spot now where I can't really imagine doing anything else. Like for me working with the product science group and I also make art, I dance. And so to have this blend of life, different aspects of life, feeling so full, I mean each one contributes to the other as well. Like if I haven't moved physically For a week. My work is going to go way slower in tech. It's not going to be as high quality. I'm not going to be as inspired or inspiring or pleasant to be around. So it's um, it's, you know, they're, they're all symbiotic, I think.

Speaker C: Yeah. My experience with working in this capacity is similar to Mark's. I really thrive with this model. Um, I actually think that a lot of people, many people would thrive with this model. You know, it's just not very available in the working world, at least in the US today. Um, but the way that, you know, we can kind of blend, weave different parts of our life between work, non work, things that are approximately work but maybe you don't get paid for. I think it's uh, it's, it's really amazing way to live life and I'm very grateful for the opportunity.

Speaker E: For me, I think fractional work makes sense for people who tend to be naturally curious and have a high threshold for ambiguity and are drawn to solving interesting problems. For people who maybe are focused on specializing in a specific area or domain, those who are a little less comfortable with ambiguity and risk it might be a little more challenging. I, um, think for me personally the positive and negative side of it is that it requires you to hold yourself accountable. You're uh, not always in a situation where there's pressure externally to deliver, uh, or do things like that. And so it um, requires a certain amount of discipline as well. So those might be some factors to consider when you're considering doing fractional work.

Speaker B: I would counter that though, with, there are a lot of ways that you can build systems for yourself to give yourself accountability and make that possible. I do really resonate with the sort of, the comfort with ambiguity. You have to have comfort with ambiguity if you're going to do fractional work. So lab note 605.4 is. Fractional product work is a great fit for creative people who thrive in ambiguity, but it's not accessible or right for everyone. Now here's myself and Dina talking about the importance of building community and networks. And uh, I just want to underscore how right she is that building your network, you know, you don't, you don't go to build it when you need it. You build it constantly and then it's there when you need it. And I'm curious how each of you has experienced that.

Speaker C: I think that it's important in a, uh, regular kind of corporate setting in life, but then also especially in the consulting world. In the independent world. Just the network is where business comes from in many cases. And I think that what she said resonated just being able to meet people and kind of know where people's strengths lie and who you can call on for different needs and how you can help them. Um, I think that's really valuable, uh, to continue working and investing time in that area.

Speaker B: LabNote 605.5 Invest in your network throughout your career and it will pay dividends. Well, that concludes our Lab Notes section. Each of these lab notes will be in the show notes as well. It was such a pleasure to talk with Ha Nawen about her journey through products management, venture capital and community building. I hope you enjoyed this episode. The Products Are Science Podcast is brought to you by the Product Science Group. We teach startup founders and product leaders how to use the Product Science method to discover the strongest product opportunities and lay the foundations for high growth products, teams and companies. We do this through community coaching, training and consulting. Learn more@productsciencegroup.com Enjoying this episode? Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss our next episode or Visit us@productsciencepodcast.com to find show notes or sign up for more information, information and resources from me and our guests. If you like the show, please leave us a rating or review. It goes a long way towards helping other people find the show too. Now go out there and experiment.

Speaker C: It.