"No Labels, No Pressure" with Lee

Roz: What happens when two married scientists question the relationship script they were handed and crack open a door they never knew existed? This is our research phase, and the experiment is already changing us.

Max: Welcome to the Partnership Lab, where we study love, partnership and consensual non monogamy. Think of this podcast as, as a relationship lab notebook filled with real time observations, experiments, and what we're learning along the way. Our discussions may include explicit language and sexual content, so listener discretion is advised.

Roz: Welcome back to the Partnership Lab for episode seven. I'm Roz, and I have a special girl talk episode for y' all today. We have Lee with us, and in the background, her main squeeze, Mr. B. He's gonna be the fly on the wall. Um, so Lee and I met at the women's retreat a while back that you guys heard about, and we've just still been chatting, like, a little bit and decided, like, I'd love to have her on the podcast just to talk about, like, all things lifestyle, because, like, so many couples and just people in the lifestyle have different perspectives on, like, where you're coming from, like, how do you get in the lifestyle and just how do you find, like, your way to, like, this community and things like that. So if you would just want to introduce yourself to our listeners and just, like, how much lifestyle experience you have, like, relationship dynamic you have, and we'll just kind of go from there.

Lee: Okay. I'm Lee, and I'm, um, super excited to be on here with you. Yay.

Roz: I know.

Lee: I love it. Um, so my husband and I have been married for over 20 years, and we are both in our 40s. And, um, really, I guess I. My thoughts were I would just tell you kind of how we got started, like, before we got started.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: So I, um, have some past childhood sexual trauma. And after being in marriage for 20 years and being in my 40s and starting to go through perimenopause, not really realizing that, um, that's really what I was going through. I thought there was something wrong with me because he wants it all the time, and I don't necessarily need it or want it all the time. And so, like, I asked a friend of mine that's she's been married for a long time, she's older than me. I was like, I don't understand, like, why, you know, like, like, I don't understand what's going on, like, is there something wrong with me? Like, why don't I want it as much as he wants it? And she, she answered, I, uh, just by saying I have I have nothing to say. And I was like, oh, great. You know, like, none of the women in my life that have been married for a long time, they. They don't talk about their relationship. They don't talk about their sex lives with their spouses of 20 plus years. Like, I don't know anything. And I'm thinking, uh, there's something wrong with me.

Roz: It's so isolating.

Lee: Yes, it is. And so I had started doing my own research because I'm forced into it. Like, I need to find out how to, I don't know, fix myself. And, um, I came across his books, the Anatomy of the Female Arousal. It's really good book, but I learned a lot. Like, I learned that, A, I'm normal and that B, there's things I can do to, like, get myself in the mood, to get my. To get my head in the space. Right. Because it's getting it into your head space. Like, getting prepped mentally and getting rid of all of the outside noise and, like, getting prepared to have an experience with your husband. And it's not just like, okay, hey, you want to have sex, and five minutes later you're done. You know, like, yeah, let's. Let's do something.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: So I'm curious.

Roz: Have you done your erotic blueprint?

Lee: I have done my erotic blueprint.

Roz: Are you essential?

Lee: I am kinky, actually.

Roz: Hey, that's interesting.

Lee: I'm mostly kinky, but. And then I'm kind of like, even across the board with the rest of them. Okay.

Roz: Interesting.

Lee: Yeah, I'm just. I'm, um. You know, I'm a little mix of it all, I guess.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: But, yeah. So anyway, so then we. So I was doing my research then New year's, right before 2024, we both got sick. We were in the house for days, sick. And I think we got cabin fever because we were like, we need to plan a trip to go somewhere. And. And then, like, he loves to be naked. And so we were like, well, maybe there's some place out there that's like Curacao where it's topless beaches or something. And so we. We found desire.

Roz: Okay.

Lee: And that just opened up, uh, a whole new world to us because we didn't know anything about the lifestyle. We didn't. We knew that there were swingers out there, but, like, we just didn't know that there was a whole community of people.

Roz: That was us, too. Like.

Lee: Yeah.

Roz: I had no idea all of this existed.

Lee: Right.

Roz: Like, my mind was just, like, blown.

Lee: Yeah.

Roz: I felt like I was like a newborn yeah, like, I'd like to learn all of these like, terminology and like how people, how you like conduct yourself, like in the community, which is totally different from like real world, quote unquote. And uh, yeah, yeah, totally.

Lee: Yeah, it's. I mean it's. Yeah, it's a whole new place. And so we started researching Desire and found, you know, different podcasts and YouTube videos of people who have been there and had, you know, were doing their own reviews of it. And so, you know, there's. There was a little trepidation building up to that. But we did decide to make the trip. And so three months later we went. The plane lands and my stomach is, it just drops. I'm just like, oh my God, like we're here and we're about to do this. And you know, just didn't know. We did not know what to expect.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: Um, and so highly recommend for everyone to go to Desire just because it, I think it like gives you a different perspective on just people in general. Like when everyone's walking around the pool nude or half nude and it's not a big deal and people are happy and they're chatty and they want to talk to you and I don't know, I felt so liberated and so free to be there. Like, the energy was just so positive and so loving. I said it was like, um, Disney World. You love Disney. So it's like literally Disney World for adults. Like true Disney, Happiest place on earth. And so that was, that was the beginning of our journey.

Max: Mhm.

Roz: That sounds super fun. It kind of sounds like that's kind of gonna be what it's gonna be like when we go to Heedo.

Lee: Yes.

Roz: Because that's really gonna be our first huge event where there's. You're allowed to be naked, like in public, quote unquote, you know, kind of. And uh, so that's gonna kind of. I mean, we're going to some other events too where that, that's a possibility, but it's not as big as. It's not like at a resort or anything like that. So yeah, that's probably gonna be like us. We're like, oh my God.

Lee: Yeah. I mean, I think that like you think you won't get naked, but when everyone else is naked and like, I mean, you're talking people of all ages, all sizes, scars, like all this literally like any human normal, you know, human being from here to there and, and different, like, I don't, I guess social classes, different levels of income. I mean, it's. You don't know, because everything is stripped away. There's no clothes. Like it's literally just the human in front of you. The conversations that you have in the, in the interaction that you have with people just, it's so different. It's. It's hard to explain that. I feel like you just got to go experience it, you know, And I

Roz: kind of felt like that at the retreat. The women's retreat also was like just age range from you know, 30s to 60s, maybe even 70s.

Lee: Yeah.

Roz: Um, maybe even 70s. Yeah. And it was just. But you all have like some like little thing in common.

Lee: Mhm.

Roz: Like it's like I would have never met some of these people like in my normal like day to day life.

Lee: Right.

Roz: Which is crazy.

Lee: Yeah.

Roz: And so like speaking of the retreat, like retreat, like how, how did that make you feel? Like after like going into the retreat and then like coming out of the retreat.

Lee: So that was my uh, second time going. I don't know if you knew that or not.

Roz: Okay.

Lee: So. So last year when I went, I didn't know any, any, you know, what to expect other than what we were, the information that we were given. So that time I was a lot more nervous and, and I was the one who showed up when everyone was already standing in the circle on the first day. That was me. That was me too. When I heard you say that, I was like, yeah, that was, yeah, I, I know what that felt like. Um, so last year was just. It was more like my fear was more based on um, like not. I think it's more like just dealing with society and people and like not like being afraid that people are going to find out. And then I'm like, well, if someone finds out, like, how would I explain why I like it? Why do, why do I like the lifestyle? What, what is it that draws me to it? Right. And I've been uh, for the last two years been working on that answer. Really? Yeah.

Roz: So have you had one? Like, have you like really? Like. Yeah.

Lee: Ah.

Roz: Like this is the foundation of like why this is like a part of my life now.

Lee: I do. Yeah, I think so. Um, I feel like other people articulate it so much better than I do. But, but now I know. Well, it's just like, okay, well what would I say, you know, if I was having to defend myself? But really like we, we really from desire. I think desire was, was the initial like start to it. So like having that experience of that, that sex, positive energy and like I feel like in society all we get is all of the Negative part of it. We hear about all of the sexual trauma and we hear about rape and like, just all of the things. Right. Like all the things that's negative about sex don't do this.

Roz: You can't do that.

Lee: Yeah. And so no one ever talks about the good. And like, when you think about an orgasm and just how beautifully powerful that feeling is, and like, there's literally nothing negative about it if you're in a consensual, obviously, situation. Right. Like, it's beautiful when you have that connection, that intimate time with your spouse. Like, that is what should be all over the media, but it's not. And so all we hear is negative. And so I, um, think with the lifestyle, like, being around people in the lifestyle allows you that opportunity to be in the positive. It's like the yin and yang. It's like now we're. We've been in yin ying for our entire lives. Now we're on the other side. Right. Like, we're getting to, like, see the, the joy and the happiness and just the positive part of it.

Roz: And honestly, like, even just, like, the benefits of talking about it.

Lee: Yes.

Roz: Being open and like, having conversation be like, well, I didn't like that because it just didn't, uh, make me feel good. And you know, just like, actually conversing and like, saying how you feel and like, figuring out. I feel like if you didn't explore in your, like, 20s, then it's like, okay, it's not okay anymore. Like, once you are married and m. It's not okay to explore anymore.

Lee: Right. Shut off, like, now. What barriers are. Are now set in place that society has told us about since the day we were born. And like, so we don't know anything different and we were taught to fear anything opposing it. You. You put your. Your marriage in this box and you stay put and you're not allowed to do anything outside of that box and, or. Or something horrible is going to happen. Right?

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: Uh, we just. We've been taught so much fear about. About anything out of the norm.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: And so, yeah. So having some freedom for that. I mean, you know, to talk to my spouse, for the two of us to be able to share our fantasies and, you know, oh, you know, what would that be like? And, you know, even thinking about desire was like, well, you know, what if, like, this happened or that happened? You know, it's like you start talking about it because you're like, there's these potential scenarios that could come up. Going to the women's retreat. Are you okay if this scenario happens or that like those conversations never happened five years ago. Right. So I mean, it's just, it's fun. It's a good time.

Roz: Yeah, Yeah, I know. Max was like super into like uh. When I came back from the retreat, he was like, you have to tell me all the details.

Lee: Yeah.

Roz: And he was like, like to the point. Like he was like anxious like, like not that like I did anything that we didn't agree upon or anything like that because we had like our like agreement in place like before I went. Like this is what you're okay with. And yeah, we're not gonna, we have these boundaries like for a reason at least like when we're so early for us.

Lee: Yeah.

Roz: And, and it was, it was just funny like just how like anxious like both of us felt just like sharing like my experience and like he's like listening to it like after the fact. So. Yeah, it's. It's just kind of crazy. And like afterwards you just feel like, okay, that was a lot better. Okay. And I'm glad we get to talk.

Lee: And it's good. And it's hard to really even describe like how awesome the retreat is. Like even this year. I mean I went in this year with like more of an open mind. Like. Okay. I am given this opportunity to see if I'm interested in women because I know that that is something I could explore in that, in that situation if I wanted to.

Roz: Mhm.

Lee: I could at least ask somebody if they, you know, like if I wanted to. So um, um. And you know, so I, I was able to go in there with that question and with that intent and with that open mind and like I'm going to be open to this and feel my body and see what my body wants. And um. I just, you know, I'm. I'm not like, it's. I enjoy the, I enjoy the energy. I love the feminine energy. I never um, was open to that. Always. Women always made me uncomfortable. Really? Yeah.

Roz: And that's just part of as like ah. Like a sexual like connection. Are you saying like made you uncomfortable?

Lee: Even when I was a kid. And I think uh, I think part of that is childhood trauma and insecurity and self consciousness and you know, all these things like I thought I was ugly and unlovable and you know, all of these things. And then um. My mother also was not like affectionate. So like I never received that, that warmth and that gentle and that loving embrace from a woman or female. And so when I was in middle school and like my best friend now, like, when she. She would hug me and I would just be like, okay, this is what we do now. Girls hug. You know, it was just like, you

Roz: know, like, I feel awkward.

Lee: Yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm. I can. I can hug women now. I don't have an issue with hugging or anything like that. But. But I think at the retreat you just got to. To experience and witness and feel that. That. That sexual feminine energy in the room.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: And we got all of it because we got the deep conversations and the connections, but we also had that, you know, the last night where. Where we got to really explore a little more. And so, yeah, I just. It was. I got to be a little more in touch with that kind of energy and not just masculine energy, you know?

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: Um, it was, it was lovely because I got to take that home and I was like, oh, this is what it's supposed to feel like. I should be, like, loving on my husband and giving him that energy. And I just. I don't know, I feel like maybe I was giving off masculine energy all this time, you know?

Roz: Like, it's just.

Lee: I don't know. It's. It's. It's hard to explain it, I think. I don't know.

Roz: Yeah. Like, not when you can't be there to experience it. It's hard to explain it only in words, because I feel like, at least for me, like, I just. It's just a feeling that you get from being in the environment and, um, and you make connections, like certain connections, like with people, uh, and you are kind of friends with everyone, like at that point, like, ah, after this couple days of the retreat. And it's only like a couple days, it's not long at all. Yeah.

Lee: But it feels like it was a week, you know?

Max: I know.

Roz: Yeah. It feels like a longer. A lot longer time. And I. I, uh, mean, I would. I was kind of in the same situation too, where it was like, I've never really gotten to explore that part of myself. Like, am I attracted to women? I don't know. I mean, I've had. I've had lots of friends, but I mean, I never was really allowed myself to, like, take it to that level.

Lee: Yeah.

Roz: Of connection. And although I think women are the most beautiful and, like, attractive and all that stuff, I just don't know if it's really like a sexual connection for me or at least in my current state. And, uh. Yeah. It's just so interesting how you can feel like everything's so beautiful and like, cherish you have like, deep connections and everything. But it just doesn't go to, like, that next piece for whatever reason. I don't know.

Lee: Yeah, I don't. I mean, I was telling one of. Talking to one of the other ladies there. That was the one who massaged your ears.

Roz: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Lee: No good at that. But, um. Yeah, I love that. I was like, oh, I didn't. I didn't know that that was such a sensitive spot.

Roz: I'll have to send you the thing she sent me because she. There's like an entire, um, reflexology map of the earth.

Lee: Who. Who even knew, right?

Roz: I was like, what? So I'll just send that to you.

Lee: Yeah, send that to me. Um, but anyway, I. I told her because she asked. She. She had off. She asked if she could, um, um, interact with me in a certain way. And. And I was just like, I. I don't really know that I, like, care to be involved sexually. I mean, that's. Those aren't the words I use, but, yeah, that's basically what I said. And then I pulled her out of the room because we were doing the massages and. And we had a break or something. And so I was like, can I talk to you? And so I just told her. I was like, I don't know if it's. Because there's so much going on and there's maybe over stimulation, and so it's not really allowing me to relax and. And, um, be open, as open as I thought I would be to, like, an interaction with a woman. So, um, I just was like, yeah, I'm not really turned on. There's a lot of great stuff happening around here. I'm loving the sounds, I'm loving the visuals. I'm loving the massages, all, you know, all of the things. But I'm not, like, aroused by it. So I just, you know, I'm not really sure if it's just because there's a lot going on or not. But.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: Anyway, so we came. We went back in and decided to do, you know, massages. But, uh, yeah, so I. So I'm like, okay. I still don't know, because I do think women are beautiful. Um, I can appreciate a beautiful woman and be like, yeah, she looks hot. Um, but, you know, is that other little piece.

Roz: I don't know, puzzle piece. I don't know what to call it.

Lee: I want to suck on her nipples, you know? Like, I just. I don't have any desire in my mind. Like, oh, my gosh, I really want to kiss her. I just have never Thought that way. So maybe I just need some male energy in here and like, I don't have a problem with touch and stuff. So I think if I was ever in a situation with a woman, like a couple, and the woman was by, like, I don't think I would have too much problems. Like I wouldn't mind her touching me and I wouldn't mind touching her, but I don't think it would get like.

Roz: But just like a one on one. You're like, I, uh, don't know that's ever going to happen.

Lee: Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't think it'll happen.

Roz: Well, and it's just nice where you can be in a place where you are allowed to just go for it or not.

Lee: Yeah.

Roz: Like it's all up, um, to you. It's all like up to your, like what you want and like what you want to get out of it. And that is the best part, I think.

Lee: I agree.

Roz: Uh, be free to make your own choices and experience things if you want to.

Lee: Exactly. And honestly, I mean the weekend, like making the connections, having the conversations, meeting Kate and Katherine and Ashley and like all the other people that were there, you know, it was lovely.

Roz: Yeah, it was really good.

Lee: It's nice to meet some women in the lifestyle and have some good conversations.

Roz: Yeah. Like when my one hesitation at like going into like these really big lifestyle events is like, there's so many people that's can be a little bit over stimulating for me. And also like, okay, you only get to talk to these people like for what, a few minutes and like, maybe you don't find them again. And so that was like kind of the piece I was kind of missing because I think for us it's a little bit more about like friends with benefits situation versus like just having like a, A uh, weekend fling or something like that. We're just like looking for a little bit more friends first and that may like grow into like something else.

Lee: Yeah. If it, and it, if it does and not trying to force it and just, just have sex with people just to have sex.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: Yeah.

Roz: I think that would like, give me the ick the most time if it was just like, yeah, I just want as many people as I want and yeah. Yeah, that's not gonna be my bag.

Lee: Yeah. We've talked to a couple of people on um, sdc and you know, you start chatting and like one, the last couple, they were, they, they have young kids. Okay. I get that you want to make the most out of your time that you take away. But I had just reached out to them because we were going to go to a comedy club, and I was like, hey, we're going to go see his comedy. Do you guys want to come? Like, this would be a great time to meet for the first time. No pressure, you know, that kind of a thing. And she was like, yeah, we're free this weekend. And he goes, yeah, that works great. Oh, but by the way, is your intention to just do a meet and greet or is there a possibility of play? And I was like, like, I haven't even met you greet. But like, I don't understand. Like, I wasn't planning on getting a hotel room that night. I did get a hotel room, but I wasn't planning on getting a hotel room. And, um, he just, like, basically stopped. Like, they just stopped talking to us. And so they didn't show up. They didn't come because I was like, I already got my, My, uh, my seats at the comedy club because I wasn't gonna wait around. Like, we're going to do this. Do you want to come? Yeah, it's Wednesday. The things on Saturday, you know, like, let's. Let's figure this out.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: Um, but anyway, so they just basically stopped talking to us. And so I was like, all right, well, because I can't guarantee play on the night of. I guess, you know, it's a waste of time. So. Yeah, I'm not interested in that.

Roz: Yeah. And it's good to, like, really, uh, think about those types of things. Right. I mean, as. And being in the lifestyle, I don't feel like you can, you can't. People do. But I don't feel like it's a good idea to just fly by the seat of your pants. And that's those scenarios. Because that's when people get hurt. Especially like with. If you already have a partner, like a primary partner, and you haven't discussed it and then you're like, throwing it out, it's like, okay, now I feel pressured to either do something or, like, just be like, okay.

Lee: And I don't feel like we should feel any pressure to do anything anyway. Like, we are married. We have our own spouse. Like, I got the most beautiful dick over here to use. I want to, like, I don't need another one. I'm, um, not. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, if you're super awesome and you have this amazing way to just drive me crazy and like, I just want to, like, be in your lap, cool. But I'm not just gonna go out With a guy and give him some guarantee before we even meet. Like, oh, yeah, we're, we're planning on playing with you tonight. Like, yeah, not happening.

Roz: I'm not sure, I'm not sure how you could, I could even make that decision if you haven't even met yet.

Lee: Ah, right. You know, I was like, um, mind boggling.

Roz: Maybe not.

Lee: Yeah.

Roz: So like you said you had like a traumatic like, upbringing. And we, in our first episode, we kind of started talking about like where like we like came from, um, and like how sex was treated like as we were growing up. So it sounds like it was kind of similar. You just didn't talk about it. And that's when you're like, when you have questions and you don't know where to ask them because no one, again, no one talks about anything. And so like, how has the lifestyle like changed the idea of sex for you? And how is the lifestyle like changed like your view and like grown your personality?

Lee: Um, well, okay, so for me, I, my, my childhood abuse was from my stepfather when I was very young. Up until like age 11, it was like probably 6 to 11. And I've done a lot of growth with that. But part of being a teenager and a tween. Tweenager. And after having experienced that, my first sexual experience was with a grown man. Right.

Roz: And so I'm so sorry that happened to you.

Lee: Me too. I, I think what I've been learning is that I'm reading this book called the Erotic Mind and I'm, it's just blowing my mind because I'm like, okay. And um, you kind of learn like what your erotic mind, your erotic mind develops when you're young. So I was taught in my mind, I guess I was taught that sex was a way that you showed love. If you love me, you'll do this, right? And so with guys, like, I was boy crazy and I was, I mean, it was just wanted this boy after the next boy after the next boy after the next boy. And then it kind of became a chase, like, oh, uh, you know, if I can get him. Then it was almost like I had conquered something. Like maybe, ah, maybe I am actually lovable. But I, but I didn't feel good inside. I didn't think I was good enough to have girlfriends. Um, I, you know, I wanted to be popular so bad and I couldn't be popular because I just wasn't pretty enough or maybe, you know, like that's what I thought, like, told myself I wasn't good enough to, to be these things. To be loved, to be liked. And so I went through that, um, and then. Then became angry when I was in high school. So now I just hated everybody, and they could all just go screw themselves. Yeah. Um, and I went through several boyfriends and several guys, so, you know, I kind of slept around. And then, uh, when I went to college, I got invited to a church. And it was. Has been known to be called a cult. Okay. But they. They're really good at bringing kids in from college and. And kind of, uh, sucking them into their church. And so, like, I joined the church and went from very sexual to. You're not allowed to be sexual at all. Like, you got to shut it all down. You can't even imagine stuff in your head. If you imagined stuff. Something in your head, you were expected to confess that. Okay? So, like, we were very big on confessing our sins, holding each other accountable. I had a designated, uh, person that I. I got together with every week and, like, talked about all the things I struggle with. So, like, no masturbation. You couldn't imagine, couldn't pull images in your head. Nothing. So, like, I shut that down for, like, three years and then met my m. Husband. Yeah, met m. Met my husband. We ended up leaving the church. And then, like, it was like, okay, all this excitement came back because it was. You're still trying to be good. You're still trying to do what you're supposed to do and be pure and holy and all this stuff. But, like, now you have all this temptation and nobody to hold you accountable. And so that was fun. It was exciting. And.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: Thing and like, all this stuff.

Roz: That's where your kink comes from.

Lee: That's. That's exactly where my K comes from. Because I just, like, yeah, anything is taboo and that. So then we get married, and, like, then it, like, shut down. Like, my arousal went away because all of a sudden what I wasn't supposed to be doing, I was allowed to do.

Roz: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Lee: Um, I was reading. I read, uh, Sex, God and the Conservative Church or the. Yeah, I think to church. And she talks about that. Like, a lot of Christian couples have this problem. Like, they. They get married and. And they've never been allowed to talk about sex. And it. Like, I only went through church for, like, three years. Like that. Like, there are people who are born into this, and that is literally what they were taught. And so you're not allowed to talk about sex. I have, um, a family member who is getting married, and he told us at. At his fiance's bridal. Shower. We were not allowed to talk about sex with her at all. And so, like, he, you know, he's in control of this. He's telling us what she can and cannot hear, which is sad because, uh, that's a great time to give brides, future brides, some advice. Right? Yeah.

Roz: Ah.

Lee: I mean, I didn't have anything planned,

Roz: but now never under the control piece just like, really sets me off. Like, every single time. Uh, it's like it's not your decision.

Lee: Yeah. But it's like it's making it negative. Like it's now put in her mind. Like, I'm not even allowed to talk to my family members. Like, my, my in law, future in laws. I can't talk to anybody. Like, she can't talk to anybody about sex. It's not allowed. Right. So, uh, anyway, so, like, my brain's all confused and we've always had a good convers. Like, my husband and I have always been really good about talking about it because it was a struggle before we got married. And I was the one that was like, we're not supposed to be doing this and we're supposed to be good and yada, yada, yada. Um, but we, I mean, we've always been pretty open. I'm, um, I'm. I think I'm pretty open book. Like, I don't have any problem sharing stuff for the most part. He's playing at me. Okay. Um. But like, the changes. I know. Yeah. I'm giving you a long story.

Roz: Fine. This is what girl talk is for.

Lee: Yeah. So I think I just have carried that insecurity inside of me that I'm like, I'm not beautiful, I'm not sexy. And that's what I'm saying. Like, it's all kind of stemmed from all of that. And he has always been good. He tells me like 10 times a day, I'm beautiful, I'm sexy. And I'm just like, oh, uh, okay.

Roz: That reminds me, like, there was like a little piece at the retreat. I think Kate said it that was like, uh, someone, like, external people or external things can tell you, you're good enough. You're beautiful, you're sexy. Like, all these things. But if you're not loving yourself to hear that, it's never gonna get through. And that really stuck with me because I think I have a very similar thing where it's just like, if I don't believe it, it, uh, no matter what anyone else says, if I don't believe that in myself, it's never going to actually, like, hit home for me because I've had, like, very similar, like, okay, I'm not, like, this size, and I don't, like, look great in, like, lingerie. And so, like, I'm not worthy to be sexual or, like, feel like I'm being wanted in that way. And. Yeah. So I totally. I totally get this.

Lee: Yeah. And I mean, that's the thing. It's like, It's. I feel like we're our. We are literally our worst critic. I mean, we can find everything to cut down regardless, you know, of whatever it is on our body. Um, there was a show. There's a show called, um, Naked Attraction.

Roz: Okay.

Lee: England. I love it because it. It's just such a great show to watch where you realize that every single body looks different and everybody's attracted to different things. So even if you think you're not attractive, like, I'm telling my. I'm, like, talking to us.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: I'm like, even if you think. But even if, like, I think I'm not sexy and beautiful, because I am looking at myself thinking. That doesn't mean that he doesn't think that. Yeah, he thinks I'm m. Sexy and he thinks I'm beautiful, and he loves my curves, and he loves my. My butt. And he, you know, like, he loves everything about me. Even when I was fully pregnant and swollen and 50 pounds heavier, like, he was still telling me that I was beautiful. Right. And sexy, and I'm just, you know, so you're just like, okay. Clearly he likes something. I don't know what he likes. I don't see it, but I believe him. Um, and it's taken me a long time to. To get there, and I do think the lifestyle has been a part of that, just because it's given me the opportunity to, I, um, think just to embrace this side of our. It's like the side of our holistic health. Like, there's this whole sex piece of the pie sexuality that I've never really been able to, like, get into and research and, like, really embrace it. And I think part of that's with, you know, life, work, and kids and, you know, all the things. And so it's like, all of a sudden, I have all this time to really be able to focus on it and learn some things that I just never really got to learn before.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: And, God, I mean, we have all the resources at our fingertips now, so we didn't have to go.

Roz: Yeah. Just like, Google. Yeah, let's, uh, let's find some things out.

Lee: Yeah.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: There are resources out there now that it just haven't been out there. And it's just, it's lovely. I appreciate every single person that puts content out there because it, I think it helps us people out here trying to figure out who the heck we are and what's going on.

Roz: Yeah. Um, it's funny because we went to a, like, indie bookstore this, like randomly, and they had an entire section just on sexuality. I was like, okay, look at this indie bookstore. Getting it. Uh, like, oh my gosh. I was like, okay, I will read this one. This one? Yeah, I picked like one out. Then I was like, wait, I'm not going to pay $40 for this book. OK, okay, like, sorry, indie bookstore. I'm not paying $40 for this book. Very good. Um, but I'm still going to read it. I think the one I picked out was called, um, uh, Awake by Jen Hatcherson.

Lee: Awake. So is it Pink? Sorry. He's. Mr. B over here is thinking, I have the book. It's. The one I have is called awaken your sexuality.

Roz: Okay. Yeah. This one's just called Awake.

Lee: Okay.

Roz: Um, so I'm gonna read that one at some point. Maybe we'll do it for her book club. I don't know. But it was one. I was like, I'll read that. Yeah.

Lee: So, uh, he would like some brownie points for his contribution over here.

Roz: Okay, good job. And it's funny how often like I hear like, oh, I've been married for decades, basically is anytime I've like really talked to like other couples. And it's so funny because I'm like, yeah, like we've been together that long too and we, we just found a lifestyle, so we're very, very new. But yeah, it's just crazy that it's like you've had so much like a relationship experience and now this is like the time for like, okay, we have a solid foundation and now like, let's, let's keep it going. Like, let's explore things we want to explore, communicate about it and like, get both what we want out of our life. Because you only have one, right. You can't, you know, I'm a do over. So.

Lee: Yeah. And you get to do it with your best friend. I mean, uh, yeah. What a fun ride.

Roz: Yeah. And meet awesome people along the way, to be honest. And the most authentic people, in my opinion. It's kind of crazy. And, uh, how fast you can connect with people when those other barriers are not there. It's crazy.

Lee: I agree. And I think desire was, was the intro to that. That's kind of what I was saying. When. When you don't have any cloth. I mean, nowhere to hide kind of breaks through a lot of. Of, um, barriers there, and you just kind of get to the nitty gritty.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: Yeah, it's good. I love that. I. I'm not very good at, like, small, uh, talk. I'd rather just. Let's just. Let's just talk about who we really are.

Roz: Yeah. Where's the elephant in the room? Let's talk about the big elephant.

Lee: Elephant, yes. Get it out of the way.

Roz: Yeah. So, uh, where do you hope, like, your relationship is in, like, 10 years?

Lee: Well, hopefully I still want to have sex.

Roz: Main goal.

Lee: I mean, uh, ultimately, that's a goal, obviously. I mean, you know, you get on some HRTs, and hopefully you. You still have the. The drive and all of that. But I think in 10 years, like, it would be nice to, um, just continuing to be, you know, doing what we're doing now. We. We go on trips together. We'll do weekend getaways, and, you know, I try to find little date nights and stuff for us to do. And, I mean, I don't know, like, what do you do? You just keep doing the same thing. Maybe we'll have a molecule. We'll have some lovers that live in the basement, some lovers that live upstairs. We'll just have a big house full

Roz: of little commune action happening.

Lee: Right?

Roz: Yeah. Yeah.

Lee: I'm gonna go see George today.

Roz: I'll just be upstairs for a little while. That's fine.

Lee: Janet and I are switching beds tonight.

Roz: I do. I do kind of like the idea of, like, a small little community where you have little units of, like, couples and then you're all friends. And I do kind of like that idea. Yeah, just like a little unit. And then maybe, like, you all go to, like, a big event, like, every once in a while all together and travel together, and it seems fun.

Lee: Yeah, sounds fun to me. I think they call those, um. Are they, like, uh, nudist colonies? Plenty of them out there.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: Go get children.

Roz: Know that. No.

Lee: Very recently, you can buy a condo at, um. What was it? Caliente. There was some place that's selling condos for, like, 190 secret secrets. I thought it was in Florida secrets. Maybe. Yeah.

Roz: Um, okay.

Lee: Yeah, they're. They're open. They're building a new section. So you could. You could. You could buy a condo, live down there with all the other folks.

Roz: Yeah, sounds good. So when are we going to do this?

Lee: In 10 years?

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: I don't know. But I am looking forward to going to heo.

Roz: Um, I don't really have a whole lot of other questions but I'll give you one last question.

Lee: Okay.

Roz: Because we're like relatively new. I Everyone's kind of at like a different stage. Whether it's like they're like foundational, like relationship or like their lifestyle experience etc. But like what advice would you give to couples who are curious, um, but scared about like getting into the lifestyle or like going to a event or something like that? Labels.

Lee: What? No label. No labels.

Max: I yeah, like lifestyle itself closes things off.

Lee: I yeah, I agree. Like in my mind it's, it's not that we're a lifestyle. I don't, I don't care about a

Roz: label or whatever but um, I don't know.

Lee: Open minded, sex positive. To me, I feel like if you go in with an open mind and a sex positive attitude, you can enjoy any situation that you're in. Lifestyle related. So go into desire. We had no intentions of doing anything with anybody. We just wanted to see if uh, if I would actually take my top off at the pool. Right? Like it was just kind of like that was my challenge. And, and I did, I did take my top off and I even got naked. And um, I think going slow, some people jump into it. I personally have just enjoy the process of like going slow, taking our time, enjoying the energy and the people and the conversations that you can have. Not going in with, with any expectations of anything happening. Obviously have your boundaries talking about that, knowing like okay, we're gonna go to this party or we're gonna go to this event or this, we're gonna go for this week long thing and you're going to check with each other and you're going to talk to each other and make sure you're doing okay and, and just take it, just take it slow and enjoy. Enjoy the people, enjoy the environment, enjoy the parties. Enjoy having a little bit of fun, challenging yourself a little bit. Take your top off at the pool or go to the nude side at Heedo and get naked. I mean, you know like that up as it is.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: You know what I mean? Like you're already like, you're already there, your energy's already up. Uh, like just enjoy the feeling of it and, and don't feel like you have to perform. There are people who are going to be dtf. There are people who are going to be looking for that and they may come up to you and they may talk to you and when you say yeah, we're not really doing anything with people. They may walk away and just be like, okay, that's what they want to go do. And like, yeah, exactly. Come back and see me when you're done and you know, you're ready for a conversation or good luck finding somebody. I don't know, maybe there's another DTF couple that's ready to go right now. Yeah, there probably are.

Roz: I really agree with, like, taking it at your own pace because we haven't done anything with anyone else. And, uh, our sex life hasn't been. Has been better than it has ever been.

Lee: Right.

Roz: It's like, what more do I need?

Lee: Isn't that the point? Right. So, like, if you're having a great sex life, just doing what you're doing right now, like, just talking about it.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: And do that. And don't feel like you have to be with other people sexually just to make it better. Like it. That's what I'm saying. That's when I said earlier, like, I don't feel like I need some other man to stick his inside of me.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: What's the best way I can say that?

Roz: No, like, I don't need another dick.

Lee: I don't. I, uh, have a beautiful one right over here. Like, I don't. That's not what I'm looking for. I just want to enjoy being around people who are sex positive, open, want to have good conversation and be able to flirt and not worry about pissing his wife off or pissing my husband off. Right. Like, we have this, like, now we're, like, able to just be who we are in a natural state. If we were single, we would smile and maybe flirt a little bit. And we don't have that, um, restriction on us who we naturally would have been otherwise.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: And then. Yeah, maybe it leads to something. Who knows?

Roz: Yeah. It's kind of like I felt like after, like, dating, like, getting married, uh, like losing kind of that autonomy slightly. Not like Max was that person that was like, you can't do this. He was never like that ever. But I think I just did it kind of out of. I did it to myself out of, like, all the things that people are. Like, this is what you're supposed to do. This is what, you know, you're. You're the wife now and blah, blah, blah, blah. But then it was like, why? What? Why did I do that? And that just is, like, coming back for, like, all the things that you're taught, like growing up. Like, this is what you're supposed to do this is what society expects of you. Yeah. Um. So, yeah, I've been really pushing back on that aspect of everything.

Lee: It's a hard thing to push against too. If you get to that point where you're like, okay, we're allowed to kiss, you're allowed to kiss another man. Like, you feel like, okay, I'm. I'm ready for that. Even if you think you're ready to kiss another man, kissing another man feels very weird the first time. Like, I have kissed the same guy for 20 plus years, and all of a sudden some other man's mouth is on mine and they kiss different and they smell different and their hands are different, their arms. You know, everything is just different. And you're just like, this is. It's so. It's. It's very, um, alien. Like, you know, you just.

Roz: It's strange what to do with my hands.

Lee: I mean, it's fine. I have kissed another man. It was fun, but it was just like, you know, kind of in your head. I always said too. I was a little drunk, so I was not too much in my head. Like, I was able to just really kind of get into it. But, yeah, it was. It's different.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: You almost just feel like you're just doing something wrong. Are you trying to fit as a. A circle in a, um, a square peg, you know?

Roz: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Lee: Or some. The opposite of that, however, that.

Roz: Or what is it? I don't know. Something like that. It's something like that. I don't know. I don't know what it is technically.

Lee: Yeah. So, uh. So I would just. I think, uh, best advice, just take the. Take your time and enjoy the. The journey of it. I wouldn't rush into it.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: It's been two years for A little over two years for us. And like, I mean, we've had a couple of ex. Experiences. Literally, like a couple. So. And even after those experiences, to be honest with you, like, they were fun, they were great, but they didn't, like, they weren't so amazing that I'm like, I need this every day of my life. That makes sense.

Roz: So do you feel, like, more connected to, like, to your husband? Like, after, um, your experiences?

Lee: Mostly what it has done is we just look at each other and we're like, yeah, I mean, that was fun, but like, it's more fun when it's just the two of us. But I mean. And that's part of being intentional here and like, making sure that we're taking time with each other.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: Doing the thing here. So, yeah,

Roz: I totally agree.

Lee: Everyone's so different, though. Uh, that's what I love about the podcast, is that, you know, when you have different couples on doing podcasts and telling their stories, it's like they all have. And when they bring on other people and you get to hear their stories and, like, you just. You realize that everybody's on their own journey. Everyone's doing it differently. There's no right or wrong way to do it.

Roz: Yeah, I think that's the difference in, uh, like, the community, though, is like, everyone's open to hearing. Everyone's like, where they're coming from.

Lee: Yeah.

Roz: Like, oh, I never really thought about that way. Or like, I didn't really think, like, about that perspective, like, coming from. And even just a woman's perspective versus a man's perspective in the same situation. Or you may be, like, talking to a friend and they're perceiving it entirely differently. It was like, I think a couple times we were talking about when we did our book review. It was just like, the same situation. Like, Max and I, like, took different things away from it. It's just like, how we, like, heard the information. Like when I listened to, like, the audiobook, so I was like, how I heard, like, the situation.

Lee: Right.

Roz: And it's just. It's just so interesting to me. And that's why I love the little quizzes, like, Erotic Blueprint and like, all these, like, assessments and like, things. Because you just. By answering just, like, a few questions, you just learn so much about yourself.

Lee: Yeah.

Roz: And you start to connect the dots a little bit. Like, oh, okay, M. I think that

Lee: was the great thing about the retreat is that you actually got to see, well, what is a sensual atmosphere look like?

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: What does it sound like? What does it feel like? The kinky side of it was fun, you know, like, kind of. But I would never have had that opportunity if. If I wasn't involved in lifestyle stuff. Like, I never would have.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: Known about it. I never would have been able to. To go and experience that and say, oh, okay, like, I should find music and I should do some lighting and I should do some candle. Like, I should be setting my room up. And here's an actual real life example of ways I can do that.

Roz: Yeah. Yeah. So I definitely have started to use the music thing way more.

Lee: Yeah. Music's such a huge thing.

Roz: And actually, it makes all the difference. It does. It really does.

Lee: It does. And the type of music you play, like, sometimes he'll play some, um, Eminem or Snoop Dogg or some Nine Inch Nails for me, because that would get me moving, you know? But then sometimes I want, like, other. I don't know, other kinds of music, so.

Roz: Oh, what is it? Hold on. I'm gonna look it up. Because I found just some, like, random things on, like, Apple music. Dangerous Nights is what it's called by Night Sin Syn. And they have really R B kind

Lee: of erotic music now. You got to put it on your show notes.

Roz: Okay.

Lee: Oh, yeah, there is a one that, um. Uh, have you listened to the. You've got it. We've got a thing. Podcast.

Roz: Um, I hear about it all the time.

Lee: Well, there's a band that they helped kind of advertise on their last episode.

Roz: Yeah, I think they liked one of our posts. I was like,

Lee: oh, cool.

Roz: So that was cool. Um, uh, shoot.

Lee: Lux Music Studios. They're. We've been playing them. They've been really good.

Roz: Yes, they are good. I think I used one of their songs maybe, and that's why they're like, hey. I was like, oh, yay. Um, but they have really good music too.

Lee: Yeah, I love it.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: Kitchen. The head space.

Roz: Yeah. Well, I think we'll wrap up for today. Thank you so much for, like, wanting to talk and, like, beyond and. Yeah, it was really nice to just, like, catch up and chat and. Yeah. You guys are, uh, at.

Lee: Yeah.

Roz: I'm really excited you're gonna go to he, though.

Lee: I know. We'll see each other there.

Roz: Yeah. We're staying on the nude side.

Lee: You're staying on the inside. Yeah, we are too. We might be right next to each other. You never know. Oh, hey, uh, we say when we were in Desire, we had, um, a room where you could just step right outside your back door and into a little pool that ran along that one building. There was just, like, this little. That ran along it so you could just step inside it. And it was. It was lovely. It was lovely.

Roz: I can't remember if we got. I'm not sure which room we picked. End up picking. Uh, we were, like, waffling between, like, garden or ocean or whatever. I can't remember what we picked, but

Lee: I think I went with garden. I didn't really care. I was like, uh, I'm probably not gonna be in this room that much anyways.

Roz: True.

Lee: Garden hot tub. That's what we got. Garden hot tub.

Roz: Okay.

Lee: Inside. Yeah. It's gonna be fun.

Roz: Yeah.

Lee: Well, I appreciate you inviting me on.

Roz: Yeah. It was lovely to have you. It's nice to see you again.

Lee: Me too.

Roz: All right, well, keep in touch.

Lee: Okay, we'll do.

Roz: And maybe we can, like, once, like, Keto gets closer, we can, like, coordinate.

Lee: Okay, Sounds good.

Roz: Sounds good. Okay, bye. Uh, bye, Mr. B. Good job.

Lee: He said bye.

Roz: Bye.

Max: These conversations reflect our own observations and experiences that are not professional or institutional advice. They do not reflect the thoughts or opinions of employers, family, or guests, nor imply their approval of the content.

Lee: Shared. Sam m.