Before Our First Sex Club 🇨🇦

Roz: What happens when two married scientists question the relationship script they were handed and crack open a door they never knew existed? This is our research phase and the experiment is already changing us.

Max: Welcome to the Partnership Lab, where we study love, partnership and consensual non monogamy. Think of this podcast as, as a relationship Lab notebook filled with real time observations, experiments, and what we're learning along the way. Our discussions may include explicit language and sexual content, so listener discretion is advised.

Roz: Welcome back to the Partnership Lab for episode eight. I'm Roz.

Max: I'm Max.

Roz: So what have we been up to? It's been a minute.

Max: Yeah, it's been a while since we recorded. We kind of got ahead. Um, so it's probably been two weeks since we've done this, so.

Roz: And we were gonna record a few nights ago, but we got distracted and had to have sex.

Max: Yes. Yeah, that.

Roz: And then it was our bedtime.

Max: Right, right, exactly. Um, I guess the only thing that truly knew with me was I got a vasectomy, which was an interesting experience. It was something that was, I don't know, it felt important to me, like, as we're kind of starting this process, just to kind of be as responsible as possible.

Roz: And, um, and also we knew we weren't going to have any more kids, so.

Max: Right, that too, yeah. It wasn't like it was a lifestyle centric decision that we were like, sacrificing kids for. We were definitely sure we weren't going to have any more. But, yeah, I was super, super nervous going in. I think, um, guys just don't have as much experience having all their private bits out to a doctor as women do. So I think that, uh, we maybe take that for granted a little bit, or at least I hope I don't take it for granted, but it was a new experience, is I guess, what I'll say.

Roz: You were very nervous.

Max: I was. I was very nervous, yeah. Um, and I would say for anyone who is wanting to or is interested in doing it, I think it's definitely worth it. I think they oversell on the recovery period. It is not like in two days you're going to be back to lifting the normal weights you do at the gym, which is kind of how I was sold it. Um, and I think that can kind of lead you to be a little bit discouraged or worried, you know, if you're still feeling pain. Five or seven days after which I was all better now and back to, like Roz said, having sex. But, yeah, I would say that the numbing part was the worst. Um, and I would liken it to like a pretty bad rubber band snap on each ball. Um, and then afterwards it just kind of has that you just got kicked in the nuts kind of feeling. But it lasts for seven to ten days. So.

Roz: Uh.

Max: But yeah, I mean, it was tough because I didn't want to, like, make it all about me because I really was doing it, like, with respect to all the things that you've gone through, you know, with your own responsibility for our, you know, reproductive process and, you know, having the, you know, carrying the baby and having the C section and the whole deal. Um, so, yeah, it was hard to, to even look for any sympathy. Um, you know, but it wasn't, it wasn't amazing, but I'm through it. So what's new with you? Anything?

Roz: Um, I got a Brazilian wax for the first time.

Max: You sure did.

Roz: And actually I've had two since. We haven't like, recorded for a while.

Max: What was that like?

Roz: Like, I have a pretty high pain tolerance as I think kind of like any woman on a, uh, baseline kind of does, in my opinion. The. I think what surprised me the most, it didn't really hurt. It was just like, like, just all the hairs being ripped out for like the first time and like on your, like, labia and stuff. That was a little jarring because obviously that's. That area has never been hairless. So. Yeah, I got the full, the full Monty. So it's like all the hair is gone. And there's other patterns I guess you could say you can get to, which is like.

Max: Yeah, bright shapes and things.

Roz: Yeah, yeah. And actually they call it a French, where you have all the hair gone except for like the inner, like, labia part.

Max: Okay.

Roz: They call it a French, which I didn't know. She was explaining it all to me and I was like, this is fascinating. But I just decided like, hey, let's just go. Go for the full thing. Cuz you always grow up back. So.

Max: Yeah, I'm a big fan. I think it's, uh, it's great for like, giving oral and also just like everything slides together real nice. So. Yeah, I like it.

Roz: Yeah.

Max: And they do men, so who knows?

Roz: And they do. Yeah. You have to call a different number, though. I'm serious.

Max: That alarms me. Going through a different door and there's

Roz: gonna be a back door.

Max: Yeah, it's like, like cinder block walls and like one guy named Marco. I was gonna, I was gonna do it. Now I'm scared.

Roz: Well, it's just like there's only really women that Work there. So they have to be okay with, like, doing the.

Max: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Roz: They look at vajayjay's all day, so it's like, no good deal.

Max: Yeah. Uh, yeah, so, uh, I think that's pretty much it. I also wanted to just note that we went over 200 downloads, which is pretty cool.

Roz: Thanks, guys, for listening.

Max: Yeah, and I thought we would do a thing where. Because I paid for the upgrade on our distribution. I know, pretty, uh, swanky. But now we can see where people are listening from. So I thought I'd pick three cities that seem to have pretty engaged listeners and just say thank you for having listened to all of our episodes so far. So Santa Ana, Villarica, and Provo. We see you guys. And thanks for listening.

Roz: Thanks for listening, guys.

Max: So the Naughty Jim Toronto takeover is happening in about a week's time as of this recording. And so we've got our tickets and for the most part, we have our outfits.

Roz: Um, I had some outfit mishaps that I needed to return and rethink.

Max: Yeah, that damn Amazon sizing. I've actually been pretty lucky with mine. I think we'll probably talk about those more in the recap. And we got the hotel reservations, but we felt like it would be beneficial to sit down and have kind of a. A structured conversation talking about our goals, desires, and boundaries. Because if you've been listening for any length of time, we've only had eight of these so far. You know, we had a similar conversation that was like this before, but it was when Roz was preparing to attend her women's retreat. And so at that time, we used a framework from one of the hosts. Was that from Expansive Connection?

Roz: Yeah, it was from Katherine.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: Yep.

Max: But since we're both going on an adventure this time, uh, we thought we would kind of make our own framework and give it a go and kind of let you listen in on the process. So, um, we worked together and made sort of an 8 section, or, sorry, 7 section framework. Sounds like a lot, but it's really not. And we've gone through and answered each of these on our own separately, and we're actually sharing them here for the first time. Uh, and then at the end, we'll do a little fun chatgpt exercise to kind of see where it thinks we're landing with, uh, where we're at on this whole process. Do you want to talk about, like, what the sections are?

Roz: I think we should just, like, get into it.

Max: Okay. So the first section that we're going to talk about is what is this event mean to us? And there were five prompts. Why are we going? What are you most excited about? What are you hoping to get out of the trip? What would make the trip feel successful and what would make it feel disappointing? Would you like to share yours first?

Roz: Um, so what is, what does the event mean like to me or like to us in from my perspective, um, why are we going? Like, for me it's really about exposure, meeting other people in the community and seeing how it feels to be open and practice that type of relationship dynamic with other people who are accepting and, you know, are curious in the same way.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: Um, my brain can really understand like lots of scenarios because we're very cerebral people, like being scientists and everything. But my question to myself was like, does my body understand all these scenarios? Interesting, because those are two very different things. And I'm trying to like link it. I'm trying to connect all the dots, um, of all these things. Like I'm learning and understanding like why things are the way they are. And so I think also being essential also ties back into this.

Max: Sure.

Roz: And I'm in my head a lot. But, and, but my body tells me things. My body sometimes tells me things before my brain does, like logically. So like the physical manifestation of scenarios and feeling how I'm affected or not with like quote unquote, dating again and putting myself out there.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: This is like the exposure therapy, I guess. Yeah. Uh, to all those questions and really just experiencing it and then seeing what happens.

Max: Yep. And for me, I said that this is a opportunity for us to go somewhere that we don't have to fly to, which is nice from an expense perspective with a group of people who listen to the same podcast we do, which we found, uh, kind of self select for people you're gonna get along with. So that's exciting and it allows us to take. Sorry, I'm going to try and say more me statement. So it allows me to have experience into the traditional sex club setting for the first time because we have done some of these trips before, but they've been very, um, like learning based. And this is probably the first real kind of party setting we're going to. And it's also an opportunity to meet Scott in April, which is something I'm pretty excited about because we've kind of communicated online with, you know, through Instagram or through the Niota gym platform and stuff and thought it'd be cool to meet him in person and hopefully make some new friends. So that's. That's what I answered for why we're

Roz: going M so what are you most excited about?

Max: The part of the weekend I'm most excited about is the Mermaid Lounge. Um, it's like a pool party portion of the X Club. Um, obviously we haven't been there yet, but we've looked into it and it's got, like, a very spa ish type feel, but it's also, like, super sexy. And I always get super horny when I'm in the pool anyway, so I think that'll be kind of a fun opportunity to experience that. And. And I think the other part that stands out is, interestingly enough, picking my outfits.

Roz: Um,

Max: and I think part of that's because, like, every day I don't really put much thought into what I wear because I work from home m a lot, and this is a chance to wear things that are maybe a little bit out of my norm, but I get to express myself and what is a very, like, accepting environment. Um, and lastly, I think there's going to be a portion of the. The weekend that's very Pride focused and I think it'll be fun to experience that as a couple and have it be, like, very safe and, like, anonymous, you know, like, we get to just be there and have a good time. And because it's.

Roz: It's Pride Weekend in Toronto.

Max: It's like the finale of Pride. Pride Month in Toronto. Yeah. So it'll be fun to, like, experience that. Not to worry about, like, who's watching or who's taking pictures or whatever. What about you?

Roz: I had to think about this one actually quite a bit because I was like, I'm kind of at that point of, like, just before the trip where you kind of, like, start to get a little nervous about it. And, uh, so I think the most exciting thing. I only really put one thing. Um, the most exciting thing that I'm looking forward to is, like, maybe, like, flirting with other people and just, like, being friendly and, like, just kind of vibing with people.

Max: I love that.

Roz: A new crowd, you know, I don't know, just. Just having a good time. And I think that shows, like, some of my, like, later answers, too.

Max: Cool.

Roz: And what I'm hoping to get out of the trip is to really get a, like, personal glimpse into, like, what, quote, unquote, real parties are like, um. I know, like, you know, whether it's like a resort party, a, uh, club party, or maybe it's a house party, there's a bunch of different kinds, but this will be like, our first real one. So we always hear about the stories about people going and experiencing their events. And this isn't just like not agent focused even either. I'm just talking about lifestyle events in general. Um, so you always like hear what it's about. But I think it's going to be fun to just experience it for yourself.

Max: Yeah. 100%. Uh, the thing that I'm looking forward or I'm hoping to get out of the trip is confidence. Um, and that could be confidence that we belong in the community or confidence that we'll enjoy ourselves or confidence in myself just in speaking to others or body confidence. Any of those. All of those. Some combination of those.

Roz: Any of those. All of the above would be great.

Max: For me. The next one is what would make the trip feel successful. So for me it would be the confidence I mentioned above. Uh, and then also just getting a better feel for what the lifestyle is and what our place is in it. What about you?

Roz: I was thinking, uh, um, more along the lines of like, I think I would consider it a success if we push our boundaries a little bit.

Max: I love that.

Roz: And then whether that's actually connecting with someone else through friends physically or just simply having like sexy time, just us, maybe in like a more open space. Space.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: Yeah. I think, I think that would be a successful trip.

Max: I agree.

Roz: And it doesn't have to be like one extreme to the other. I think we've kind of shown our hand already was like we, we take some baby steps in uh, everything that we do. I think. Yeah. And, but I'm not saying that that's bad. Like I liked and do like that we are taking it slower.

Max: Yeah. I heard someone say one time that it was like if you kind of jump to the end, you like miss a lot of stuff in the middle, you know. So if it's like your very first time out and you go to like a 10 person orgy, full swap, you kind of like missed the what is it like to have the first kiss and that type of stuff. So there's not. Doesn't necessarily have to be like everything racing to the end. So. Yeah, I agree with you. Just pushing our boundaries is a good success metric for sure.

Roz: And uh, what would you think would make the trip feel disappointing?

Max: I said if we just sat in a corner and didn't talk to anybody or if we argued the whole time.

Roz: I said if we disappeared to our room without trying new things.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: And finding out. And I added this later. I was like doing some of the other questions and I added this later and I was like, finding out that someone did not disclose an STI status would really be a bummer.

Max: Yeah,

Roz: I think that's kind of on my mind because like, uh, that just. That's like one of my things. I think that's one of my hang ups about this whole thing in general also is the. You're meeting new people, like you don't know like who they've been with and it's just that unknown piece. And I also think that this is why we gravitate towards the friends first scenario. Like friends with benefits scenario versus just like random hookup, sort of down to fuck sort of thing. Um, I think that's where this falls into.

Max: Yeah. Also it's interesting that we've, we've kind of really aligned on that idea of like wanting to have sort of a couple or. Sorry, uh, like a few couples that become friends of ours that you either like all go out together or maybe like a husband goes out with a wife. And then like you can, you know, maybe play sometimes. But it's more just like a trust and a friendship first. I think we both think that would be a pretty cool like, setup kind of to get past what you're, what you're saying there too. So.

Roz: And I think it's that this is kind of like our first event for like the trust building exercise.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: It's like, I think in general, in the lifestyle or just in the open relationship, like community, people are generally very honest. At least for the most part. At least. The, uh, people that we've met so far, they're very honest, they're very genuine. And it's just like, here's the info, you know, which is so refreshing.

Max: Yeah. All right, so section two is talking about the wants, desires and curiosities. So we broke this down into four sections that we can each share. Section one is things that, uh, I definitely want. Things I'd be excited if they happened. Things I'm curious about and things I'm not interested in. And note those are I statements.

Roz: Is it so for each one of us.

Max: Yep.

Roz: So for things that I definitely want, I was like, to be honest, I just want to have a low pressure fun time. I want to talk to interesting people.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: I want to practice my flirting skills. I want to get used to people looking at me because there's going to be lots of sexy people around. And that's just not one of my strong suits is like being confident in like physically. Yeah. And openly in that way. So it's just, that's just one. I Think I've made progress, but it's just still one of those things that I'm working on.

Max: Yeah, you're back on the market.

Roz: What about you?

Max: Uh, my list is kind of long. Um, so I said talking, flirting, and light touching with new friends. Dancing, uh, with Roz. And the reason I put that in is because I'm a very awkward dancer. And so I would like to just practice that a little bit, uh, so it doesn't feel so awkward, because I think dancing is a pretty big component of a lot of these events. I would like. Sorry. I definitely want to approach someone new and initiate a conversation. I want to try dancing with another couple. I mean, presumably it'd be the wife, but I'm m not exactly sure how that works. M. I want to feel what it's like to be naked in public. I want to see other naked people and be able to comment on their attractiveness to Roz. I want to walk through.

Roz: We kind of do that sometimes.

Max: Not nakedness, but see, sometimes I feel like I'm more enthused. I receive it more enthusiastically when you comment than you receive it when I comment. So I would like to see how that feels in this setting.

Roz: Like, uh, what do you mean? Like, I'm not enthusiastic by you saying, correct. Someone is attractive.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: Okay. I'm just trying to, like, get.

Max: Yeah, sorry. That was a bit of a mind bender. I want to walk through the playroom and see what that's like. I want to have sex in public, just the two of us, and I'd like to hear from Roz, who she finds attractive. So, um, just to kind of recap, the only sexy stuff I definitely want beyond, like, light touching was with Roz. There are some other things in our categories. Correct. In public. Yes.

Roz: All right, so or so am I public?

Max: Well, yeah.

Roz: I mean, public, not in a room.

Max: Public is, like, in a space where it's appropriate at this event.

Roz: Right.

Max: It's not, like, on the road or something. All right, so section two is things I'd be excited if they happened, but not necessarily things I definitely want. So things I'd be excited. What do you. What did you say?

Roz: I have two things.

Max: Okay.

Roz: I said a couple was vibing with us and asked us on a date. M.

Max: I love that.

Roz: And also, if someone comments or talk to us about our pod,

Max: I would be excited about that, too. Yeah. Uh, I said kissing new friends, playing in the playroom, just usually making a new friend that's worthy of trading info with parallel play, hot tub or pool play. And Finding someone who is into me and makes me feel interesting and attractive.

Roz: Wink.

Max: Um, besides you. Yeah. All right, the next one is things I'm curious about.

Roz: All right. I am curious about seeing what activities or settings, like really turn the fire on for me is what I said.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: And I always kind of like view these things as like little like explorations because, um, like I said earlier, you can think of dream, like use your mind to think of all these things. But I feel like the mind, like body connection, like how is it actually when you're in it physically doing it? Like, I feel like that is a huge component to this entire thing. Um, I'm also curious about group sex. I've only seen it in like a porn entertainment dynamic setting. Um, so like, is it the same? Is it different? Like, I'm just very curious about all the things.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: Um, and it's like, am I up for public sex? It's like question mark, you know, it's like you just gotta try it and then figure it out.

Max: Yeah, we'll definitely try it. So things I said I'm curious about are soft swap, um, Roz playing with a man or a couple and me watching. Though I don't want to fall into this being our only dynamic. I also said kinky play, um, which is like vlogging, spanking, etc. Those are the three that I put on that one.

Roz: So what other you mentioned like one scenario. Like what are some other scenarios that you would be curious about? Because you said you didn't want like me playing with someone and you watching being like the only thing.

Max: Yeah. So like when I say soft swap, we could either be like together with another couple and we're both like engaging with the them and sort of that sensual, touching, kissing type. Um, or it could be like us going and finding people and not necessarily being together for those soft swamp activities. Or like you actually going and doing something separately. Feels less scary to me than like a full swap where we're both doing stuff, like both having penetrative sex with a couple at the same time, like same room. That seems, yeah, that seems harder to me than like letting you go do something and handle that later. Yeah, but I don't want it to be like I just sit while you play and then I hear about it. Because that's exciting to a point. But I feel like I'm not getting the full experience as well.

Roz: Mhm. So we talked about things that would be exciting things to be curious about. So what are you not interested in?

Max: I'm not interested in cuckolding or being degraded. We talked a little bit in the glossary section, glossary episode about that. And it's sort of the difference between like hot wifing, where you go off and play and there's like a very positive attitude with that, versus like cuckolding, where the man that's being with you is like saying that I don't please you or something like that. That's, that's not interesting to me at all. Um, I would say playing with total strangers where we don't even know their names is not something I'm interested in. And just watching Roz engage the entire time.

Roz: Yeah, I think ours are very similar. I said being seen as an accessory or toy, uh, and I put this in quotes, is like, oh, you're here, you must be dtf. So for those you other newbies that might be listening, DTF is means down to. Which means, you know, you're just like up for whatever. Yeah, basically. Um, or I also said being degraded is. I think we talked about that.

Max: Mhm.

Roz: Previously also.

Max: Yeah. You don't want to be a. Or a. Or a. Or.

Roz: Yeah, I just don't think. I just don't think I want to be called those things by someone else.

Max: Yeah,

Roz: I don't know. It's a weird, it's a weird dynamic.

Max: That's not weird.

Roz: I mean, I mean, I just mean I know some people like that's uh, like a turn on, like kinky thing and I just don't know. I just feel like it kind of gives me the ick a little bit.

Max: Well, we skipped over it, but you said it the other day that you had kind of reached this understanding that you're like, you're the queen. Right. Like you want the pleasure bring you the pleasure. You don't talk to the queen like that.

Roz: You don't talk to no queen like that.

Max: Yeah. And that's fine. All right, so that was section two, Section three. What am I actually comfortable doing? What are my personal boundaries? So there are four sections in this one. Actually there's five. What feels easy, what feels exciting, what feels scary, what feels too far right now. And then we have a couple different circumstances asking like, which ones of those would make you feel. Feel uncomfortable. Would you like to start with what feels easy?

Roz: Sure. So what feels easy for me is like, I think the easiest part will be walking into a room with NR outfits and you holding my hand. Yeah, that is going to be the easiest part of this entire weekend. Getting ready with you, like prior. Um, and like seeing or listening to you having interesting conversations with other people. M. In, like, an intimate setting, maybe.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: I was just thinking, like, I didn't write this down, but I was just thinking just now it's like another thing that feels easy is like, the. I feel like the music and, like, dancing part will feel easy to me.

Max: Yeah. I said nothing feels easy, to be honest. Um, but I think I could at least approach and start a conversation. However, that might feel a little bit different. There's no clothes involved. So, um, again, I wasn't writing this from a what feels easy to, like, see you do, because that's the next section. This is what do what feels easy for me to do. And I'm pretty introverted or at least have kind of become that way lately. Uh, so I. Yeah, that was why I answered that way. The next one's what feels exciting. You want to go with that one?

Roz: Yeah. I just said, like, dancing, flirting, casual touching. M. Kissing.

Max: Yeah. Yeah. And then I basically said the stuff that I had mentioned before. The things I'd be excited if they happened. So, like, kissing, us playing in the playroom, parallel play, those types of things. So. Yeah. Sounds like we're kind of on the same page there. What feels scary for you?

Roz: M. Something, uh, that I'm a little scared of is, like, me getting more attention and wanting to explore that, but not wanting to leave you behind because I want you to have, like, a good experience, too. And this is, like, an us exploration and not just, like, a me exploration or a you exploration and a, uh, full swap. And to be honest, any kind of penetrative sex with someone else feels scary right now. And although, like, I feel a little bit better about, like, the nakedness in public since I have gone to the women's retreat, I think putting, like, men into the mix changes how fun, free I feel about it when it was versus, like, when it was just women.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: And I think this comes from, like, a little bit of, like, ptsd, because I've been kind of, like, violated in a club setting in my younger years. So it's kind of, like, a big step for me, like, in the trust category, that people aren't gonna be that way.

Max: No.

Roz: In this community and, like, in this setting and, like, the group that's going to be there. And another thing is, like, Max, like, maybe want to drink to, like, take a little bit of the, like, nervous anxiety, like, edge off, but, like, maybe, like, getting too intoxicated to make good decisions based on our agreements. I don't think you would do that.

Max: But it's a reasonable thing to list. I don't think I've given you a reason to worry about that before.

Roz: No, but just being honest, yeah, it's a.

Max: So, uh, yeah, for me, I said for what feels scary. I said being naked in public feels scary. Having, uh. And if you remember, that was also something I was definitely wanting. So that's kind of telling. Um, having sex in front of people feels scary. Swapping with new friends feels scary. Um, worrying if my dick size is going to size, you know, if it's going to look too small around everyone else. Worrying, um, you know, if I'm going to feel like I'm being awkward or making someone feel uncomfortable. Um, I have this just like my sort of inherent fear is like making someone feel uncomfortable or coming across as like being a creep or something, which I don't think I really give off creep vibes. But that's just something that's like always in the back of my mind. Like if I'm walking behind a woman on the street, I'll like slow down or kind of move to the left so she can see me out of her periphery, just so she doesn't feel like she's being like, stalked. I don't know, I just, I always kind of have that in my mind. So that's something that I'm probably going to be kind of thinking about until I get in kind of in the zone. And then what feels too far right now for me, I said my too far is probably somewhere in the soft to full swap range. I think I would be very on board with like parallel play or us playing in the playroom or like kissing another couple or maybe soft swapping is kind of like, I think where my boundary is currently.

Roz: I think we're very much on the same like, path there. I said like, like for this trip, I think the penetrative sex feels too far and maybe soft swap. And I was like, maybe soft swap. I don't know. Yeah, I think it all really depends on what people we meet and just how that shakes out.

Max: Totally. And then lastly, we just had kind of a prompt that said what circumstances would make me uncomfortable.

Roz: Um,

Max: and yeah, I think what I said was the only time I would feel uncomfortable is if I thought you were in a mindset where you weren't making good decisions, whether that was from, uh, like a substance use or you were just like upset or emotional in a. In a mindset where I thought you were going to do something that you would like, regret later. That was the only thing I listed for that one.

Roz: I said, I think doing anything separate would make me feel uncomfortable. Um, or like, someone else being pushy about, like, a physical desire. And I know this is the part where it's like, you just have to stand firm in your boundary and stand firm and, like, in your. No.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: And for, like, no one will, like, cross your boundary on, like, on purpose.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: If you work, if you communicate it to them, you know, clearly. And I think I would prefer, like, we're more sober than not, so we can make, like, safe decisions. But also, like, we are. We're choosing to, like, push our boundary a little bit in, like, you know, open relationship dynamic. Um, established couples or people are always going to be preferred. And what I mean by that is, like, it's easier to make something more out of a friends with benefits thing than just somebody you just met.

Max: Yeah. Gotta get started on putting together that,

Roz: uh, Mean to have a list.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: A roster.

Max: Yeah, roster. Yeah.

Roz: Um, and then I was like, I'd like to play. I like to play with what we do privately, in public. Maybe sex and maybe just, like, naked dancing or whatever.

Max: M. Yeah, sounds good. Maybe we can put this worksheet up somehow so everyone else can use it if they want to as well.

Roz: Yeah. Bonus material for you all.

Max: So the next section is. So just as a reminder, the previous section was what am I comfortable doing? This section is what am I comfortable watching my partner do? Uh, so again, like I was saying, this isn't really intended to be, like, what are they allowed to do? It's more like, what am I prepared to watch? Witness. So this is interesting. So we did five categories. What feels neutral? What feels exciting? What feels intimidating? What would surprise me? And is there something that. Oh, I might have wrote that myself. I wrote one that said, is there something she's allowed to do that I don't want to see?

Roz: So, yeah, I don't have that on mine, so maybe a little bit later.

Max: Okay. So what feels neutral?

Roz: Making new friends.

Max: I said talking to new friends and being flirty. What would feel exciting to see me do?

Roz: I would feel excited for you to, like, sexy flirt with someone. Or maybe some flirt. Flirty touches and. Or maybe someone sits in your lap.

Max: Hmm, nice. That would also excite me for. Yeah, right. I would say for what feels exciting to see you do. I said watching you dance with other people. Light touching, kissing, lap sitting. Um, pointing out hotties and commenting on them, which is something I always like, even if we're just at Target. And I said soft swap type Activities. Like, if you're giving someone a hand job or a blow job or something, that would be exciting to me too.

Roz: I'm not really a huge fan of, like, giving head.

Max: I know this, sadly.

Roz: All right, So I doubt that. Uh, you just might be the only one. I doubt that.

Max: All right, well, maybe someone. I don't know, maybe someone's going down on you, then maybe that's the soft spot.

Roz: I'll take it. This is the whole, like, serve me.

Max: Yeah. Well, it feels intimidating to see me do.

Roz: Feels intimidating. I. So I kind of, like, went a little bit off the rails on this one. Kind of, like, I was thinking of, like, okay, well, like, what feels intimidating to me? And I was like, I see a woman. She's, like, really seeming, like, super into you. And then I was like, well, of course. Why not? But is she my competition? That's what was my first, like, line of thought.

Max: Okay.

Roz: And then what seems intimidating a little bit is, like, maybe, like, your interests in other people seem different from me, and how do I handle that?

Max: M. Like, they look different than you.

Roz: Yeah. Like, different flavor.

Max: Got it.

Roz: And it's not that I'm worried about it, but it's like. I think we've talked about this before, where it's like, this is, like, an exploration kind of time, and you just kind of want to explore, like, what you don't have currently.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: And I feel like it could be, like, a little bit intimidating because we're so used to being together, and so. Yeah, that was just something I was thinking about.

Max: Yeah. I like how I said different flavor. That's cute. For me, I said penetrative activities feels intimidating. And I said, I think watching actually feels harder than letting her go and do her thing. And meeting up after, which is something I mentioned before.

Roz: So

Max: what would surprise me?

Roz: So, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but, well, like, I'm just. It makes me curious about, like, what is. Is it something about, like, you visually seeing the act that makes it hard?

Max: I think it's the combination of, um, seeing something I've never seen before and also feeling like I still have to perform. Seems like an intimidating combination of things. I think if it was, like, just you and another man or, like, two other men or something and I was not participating, maybe that would not feel as intimidating. Um, and I might feel different in the moment, but it feels like being at my best for someone else is already gonna be, like, a massive challenge. And then if I'm also, like, having to take in what's happening over there. I don't know. It just seems like a lot.

Roz: That's like, if you were with someone and I was with someone else, but you were still, like, engaging with whatever I was doing.

Max: Yes.

Roz: And it's like, overstimulation.

Max: Yeah. And like, the. It's not like I'm m worried or jealous. Like, that's kind of reflected in the whole, like, you could go do it. It's more like, I think it would just be a very hard thing for me to be able to, like, multitask, watch, and also do stuff or, you know, not be thinking about your. Like, if you're okay. And also doing my own thing, you know.

Roz: Yeah.

Max: Seems like a lot, so.

Roz: Yeah, I get that. Um,

Max: okay, so what would surprise me? So I said if your pace got ahead of us, it would surprise me. And I also said if you felt comfortable or excited about me doing really anything. Uh, and then I said in parentheses, I don't need excited, but permissive or accepting would be good. You said something the other day about how you had focused so much on yourself, you hadn't really thought about what you were okay with me doing. And that maybe concerned me a little bit that we were going to get into this and it was going to be like you had a very good understanding of what you were okay with doing, but not with what you were okay with me doing. And that kind of, like, I was a little bit concerned by that.

Roz: So I don't think you need to be concerned.

Max: Okay.

Roz: It was just more like I've just been focusing on, like, a lot of things I just never really thought about before. And it's like, you kind of always just need to start with, okay, what. What serves me and then, like, what serves us? M. Like, and how do we align the wants and desires of both of us, like, as individuals, but also, like, as a primary couple? M and, like, find. Do the Venn diagram, you know, like, where does the intersection meet? I just had one thing for a Surprise me. It's like, that you would be more confident than me would surprise me.

Max: That would surprise me, too. Uh, and then I added on at the end, if there's something that you're. And I don't like even using the word allowed. I put it in quotation marks. But, like, is there something that you're allowed to do something I'm okay with you doing that I'm not okay seeing. And my response was, I don't want to limit her because I trust her. I'm not sure how it will feel to see Some of these activities happening. But I trust her.

Roz: And I think my general feeling, like, for this trip is, like, we're doing this together. M. And it's something that, like, we're kind of gonna stick together on this trip and, like, this is, like, our couple's trip. Yeah. And experience it together. Get all, ah, hot and bothered and go have sex, you know, like, it's gonna be that sort of trip and, like, meet new people, just, like, talk to people who, like, we've kind of talked to, like, online maybe a little bit, and just, like, reinforce those connections and, like, hang out.

Max: Yeah. There are a few cuties in the telegram, so. All right, so I think this is our last, uh.

Roz: Oh, no, there's two more sections.

Max: Yeah, there's two sections that I kind of left, like, things for us to sort of talk about in the moment, like, right now. So section five is what happens if one of us changes our mind. So if someone gets overwhelmed, excited, tired, triggered, how do we want to communicate? And I didn't write any thing out. I thought it just would be kind of a conversation. So what do you think? Like, if one of us needs a minute or if we just want to check in with each other, like, how do you want to do that?

Roz: So, like, communication. I just think, like, each of us, like, needs to be honest and how things are making us feel and communicate it early. Like, when it's happening, like, don't. Don't wait until, like, you're spiraling to, like, say something. Um, and then, like, how do we. How do we make that transition? I was trying to think, like, if one or both of us needed, like, just a step away, like, from, like, the overstimulation or excuse ourselves from a conversation. Like, should we, like, have a code word or a phrase that we use to be still be kind and polite, but also signal to the other person, like, hey, like, I need to, like, get out of here for a little bit.

Max: You know, I think we should just be super honest, because I think that anyone who's done this for a while is gonna kind of like, no. If you're like, pumpkin, pumpkin, you know? But if it's just like, hey, we, you know, we're gonna take a little break. We're gonna go spend some time, just the two of us, like, I think that's perfectly fine.

Roz: Yeah. Okay. So I think that goes into, like, how do we leave if needed? And I just said excuse ourselves politely. That's what I was just thinking about. It's just, hey, like, I'm going to get some air. I'm gonna go check out xyz. It was really fun chatting with you. Yeah. Like if you're having a conversation with somebody.

Max: Yeah. Catch us later or whatever.

Roz: Yeah.

Max: Or don't.

Roz: And I also think like when people say that to you, like don't be offended.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: Or be like, oh my gosh, I did something to like make them leave. And I don't know that very well might be true cuz they, you know, I don't, I just don't know. But I think just being open in your communication and. Yeah. Like you said like being honest.

Max: Mhm.

Roz: Is the simplest and most direct way.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: And then there's no like hidden meanings anywhere.

Max: Right. Okay.

Roz: And then what do you think about like how do we handle if one person wants m more than the other?

Max: I think given kind of what we talked about, it seems like we're on the same page with like, we're both really interested, excited, aroused by everything. Up to like kissing, light touching. Maybe the gray area is like parallel place, soft swap depending on the situation. And then we're both kind of like no on penetration. So I think as long as we're feeling like that is still holding for us when we're there. You know, maybe we need to communicate a little bit when we're getting in that gray area. But I don't feel like it's like you don't want to kiss other people. Like you want to just like make friends. And I want to like be a uh, 10 person orgy. I don't think we're that far apart. So I think it's just kind of that gray area of like oh, this is like getting pretty heavy. Are we, are we good or do you want to like slow this down? Is I think kind of where it.

Roz: And I think the check ins just need to be simply like that. Like. How are you doing? Like you good?

Max: Yeah.

Roz: Okay. Yeah. Um, what I just said is like quote, go at the pace of the slowest person. There is going to be plenty of opportunities for us to push more boundaries. And I think what. It doesn't sound like it's gonna be that much of a difference but I was just thinking in terms of like if there was a bigger difference. I think the small sacrifice of one person is worth preserving like our relationship foundation.

Max: Yeah. And hopefully it's not the one and only time we do this. So it's like.

Roz: Well. And we have like other trips. Yeah. That we have already scheduled. So that's why I was thinking, I was like we have More opportunities to experience, push boundaries, and do something.

Max: This is like, what does it look like to watch other people have sex? What does it feel like to be naked in front of people? What does it look like? What does it feel like to, you know, maybe kiss someone else for the first time in 20 years? You know, like, those are. Those feel like, pretty big deals. And then, like, if you kind of lay those bricks and then. And it's okay. If that's all we did this weekend, that's great. We come back, we have crazy sex for a week at home. But then the next time it's like, okay, now we know what it feels like to be naked in front of people, or we know what it feels like to walk through a playroom. It's like you're kind of building that foundation. So I don't think I'm racing to a particular outcome, but I do think that knowing that knowing how far is okay does. Does kind of unburden you a little bit to kind of practice the flirting skills and be yourself and kind of just see what that feels like. All right, do we want to do the prediction game, and then we'll see what chat has to say? I've, uh, copied our answers into chat and asked us some questions about us,

Roz: so that'll be fun. Oh, my gosh.

Max: All right, so the prediction game. There's five questions that we answered for each other. So what do I think Roz will enjoy the most? I said the social aspect. Meeting people, dancing, and getting to wear fun outfits.

Roz: True.

Max: Bing survey says number one answer.

Roz: Um, what do I think Max will enjoy the most? I said seeing me in a sexy environment.

Max: It's true. This is all stuff I never thought would ever happen in a million years. So this is all. This is all gravy, for sure. What do I think will surprise Roz? I said the amount of attention and interest she will draw because she's way hotter than she thinks. If anything, I'm worried that I'm the flat tire of the couple.

Roz: But you're not.

Max: Well, hopefully we. We. Hopefully I get the confidence to see that's not true.

Roz: Um, what do I think will surprise Max? I think the surprise will come with what I am curious about to see him experience.

Max: Yes, number one answer.

Roz: And what do I think Max will struggle with? I think maybe me being the more social butterfly.

Max: Yeah, I don't know. I don't, uh. I think I would maybe agree, uh, with you, with, like, a little bit of a tweak of the word of, like, I want you to be yourself. I want you to be social. I might struggle being social without you. Like, next to me without you is kind of like my security blanket. But I don't want you to stretching your social. Yeah, right. Um, but got it. Got to. Yeah, but I don't want you to, like, dim that. To, like, match me. I need to, like, match you, you know?

Roz: Yeah. Meet me where I'm at.

Max: Yeah. What do I think Roz will struggle with? So I said, hopefully I'm wrong, but I'm gonna say communication and dealing with my interactions with other people. I think that idea is less of a turn on for her, but I hope she can find the fun and benefit for me. But you also said, uh, what you thought would surprise me would be the things that you're interested in seeing me experience. So there you go. What do I think?

Roz: Just a box full of chocolates.

Max: You know, what do I think we'll laugh about on the way home? I said we'll laugh about all the naughty, sexy things we did that we never thought we would.

Roz: I said sexy things that surprised us and maybe anything that happened to us or we that we fudged up as newbies.

Max: And finally, what do I think will completely misjudge what you say?

Roz: I said, we've kind of already experienced this, but, like, quick connections or maybe what things mat finding out, like, what things matter more or less to us than we originally thought.

Max: Yeah. Yeah. I said how fast people become our friends and how natural it feels to be naked. So let me open my prompt because I put in our responses and I asked it some questions. All right, so this is what Chat said and I'm paraphrasing here, so this feels a little clunky. I apologize, but it said it's overall impression. Okay. First it said, I want to say how impressed I am with these responses. Um, I've been following your journey from I don't know if we could ever do this to now. And what jumps out isn't that your boundaries have changed. It's how you talk to each other. You aren't asking what's allowed. You're asking how do we protect us while we explore. I think your relationship has reached an important inflection point. Six months ago, this worksheet would have been almost entirely about fear. Now it's mostly about curiosity. Not because the fear is gone, but the curiosity has become bigger than the fear. That's a huge shift. And then identified some themes. And so the first theme, you guys are going for the same reason. Neither of you is Going primarily for sex. You're going for confidence, community, exposure, understanding yourselves, understanding the lifestyle, making friends, and pushing your comfort zones. Your answers were remarkably aligned. And that tells me your relationship has a shared mission.

Roz: Damn.

Max: Theme number two, friendship is greater than sex. Both of you repeatedly wrote things like meet interesting people, make friends, find people. We vibe with, trade contact info. Sex appears, but friendship appears everywhere. That's actually really healthy. Theme number three, you both want the other person to have a good experience. Max worries that Roz won't like seeing me explore. Roz worries that she doesn't want Max to feel left behind. Those are mirror images. Neither person is trying to maximize their own experience. They're trying to maximize the other person's experience. I thought that was sweet. Yeah. And the hidden theme of the episode, Max wants confidence, Roz wants exposure. They're almost synonyms. You're both saying, I want to learn that I can do this. The biggest difference is that it's not sexual, it's social. So Roz is excited to flirt, while Max is excited to observe the environment. But Chat thinks that Max underestimates how social Roz will be. And Roz underestimates how quickly Max can be comfortable once he finds his role. What I think you're actually ready for. So, green lights, wearing sexy outfits, flirting, dancing, casual touch, being nude, being in play spaces, public intimacy, making friends, trading contact info, and kissing. If the vibe is right. Yellow lights, parallel play, hot tub play, kinky play, or one on one conversations that become intimate. They're not a no, but they're a slow down, red lights, separate play, penetrative sex, overnight encounters, pushy people, intoxicated play, total strangers, and anything that creates regret.

Roz: I'd say it's pretty accurate.

Max: And then there were a couple other things that I, um, I said using Ross's notes, which she wrote herself without me there. How would you rate her enthusiasm? Willing participant to coerced. Instead of reading only Roz's words and taking them at face value, I would place her enthusiasm at between 8 and a half to 9 out of 10. Agency? 10 out of 10. And pressure? Coercion, 0 or 1 out of 10. The strongest evidence is she owns the why? One of the biggest indicators of genuine enthusiasm is whether someone frames their experience around their own motivations rather than their partner's. She doesn't write things like Max really wants to or I guess we'll see, or I'm doing this for him. Instead, she says it's about exposure, practice, that type of relationship dynamic. Does my body Practice my flirting skills, Seeing what activities really turn on the fire for me, those are deeply personal goals that are about her. That's not the language of someone being dragged along. She has independent curiosity. She m wonders about flirting, dating, public sex, group dynamics, and what turns her on. Those aren't Max's questions. They their razzes. People who are merely accommodating a partner usually don't generate that many independent curiosities. She has boundaries, and they're remarkably well defined. I trust enthusiastic people more when they have clear boundaries. And she worries about you. One thing I found incredibly telling was almost every anxiety she expresses is about protecting the relationship. There's no reluctant partner language, so they would describe you, um, emotionally as an enthusiastic explorer with cautious implementation. Thumbs up, say I'm. This. Says I'm underestimating you. Says they think Roz may be more curious than she realizes. So I thought that was really cool. Said if I had met Roz through these answers alone, without knowing either of you, I would conclude the following. This is a woman who is actively choosing to explore consensual non monogamy because it aligns with her own curiosity and personal growth, while also being deeply invested in protecting her relationship. She is neither being coerced nor simply going along with it. She's an equal architect of this journey, even if her pace and priorities sometimes differ from her partners.

Roz: Thank you, Chat.

Max: Which is very important to me. So then I said, what do my notes say about me?

Roz: Well, let's read these suckers.

Max: Because at first I'm like, please tell me I'm not coercing Roz into doing this. Uh, and I was like, that was a pretty good answer. What do you think about me? So. So I actually came away with a different impression than I expected. For a long time in our conversations, I've thought of you as the one pulling the train, the more curious partner, the one introducing ideas, reading books, making podcast plans.

Roz: You can tell that, um, Chat and Max have had a very lengthy discussion multiple times.

Max: Yeah, it's my podcast producer, so it knows everything. Your worksheet doesn't read that way. It reads like someone who's trying to be brave. And that's very different. Enthusiasm. Nine and a half out of ten. Agency. Ten out of ten. Pressure on yourself. Eight out of ten.

Roz: What is that? Agency.

Max: Yes. Like you have your own. Like you're doing it out of your own accord.

Roz: I got it. Okay.

Max: Says, you're not chasing sex, you're chasing identity. Almost every one of your answers points back to 1:00am Um, I. Someone who belongs here. Look at your goals. Confidence, belonging, feeling attractive body, confidence, understanding your place, finding your people. Those aren't sexual goals. They're identity goals. You desperately want to contribute. You want to approach someone sexual. Start conversations, dance, wear outfits, make friends, make Roz proud. Have Roz enjoy watching you. None of that says I want to sleep with someone. It says I want to become a more confident version of myself. It also says you trust Roz more than you trust yourself. You repeatedly say things like, I trust her. I don't want to limit her. I don't want her to have regrets. But you almost never worry she'll leave you. You worry you'll somehow make the experience less enjoyable for her. And I think at the end it says your biggest internal conflict is this. You want two things simultaneously. One, you desperately want Roz to feel free. And two, you desperately want to matter. I'm going to jump down to the end because this is a long ass response. Okay, so this is the paragraph it wrote for me. If I knew nothing else about you and only read your worksheet, I'd describe you as a deeply curious, emotionally generous person who's far more interested in building confidence, connection and authenticity than accumulating sexual experiences. You consistently place the health of relationship above novelty. You trust your partner's judgment and you're willing to tolerate uncertainty, but you're still learning to believe that you are enough. And, uh, this is what I will leave you with from chat. Roz wants to discover who she is in this environment and Max wants to discover that he belongs in it. Uh, so I thought that was very. I know it's kind of a long. I was allowed to be reading, but I thought it was really interesting to kind of put in our own words and have it sort of read back

Roz: to us and make some connections to things we said. Yeah,

Max: so, yeah, that is, uh, that's our worksheet. It. You know, I'm, I'm honestly a little surprised at how closely we've, we've kind of come m together on this. I think I'm maybe not quite as far ahead as either one of us may have thought. And I don't think that you're necessarily like as behind as maybe I would have thought. I think we've kind of really caught up to each other in speed and interest and we both have kind of a very similar set of desires. And I also think we really, we both kind of want this to look the same, you know, like there's these events. But I also think we just want to have that very close knit group of like friends with benefits, as you keep saying. You know, I think that that is like our ultimate goal, which is something that's very like tangible to me. I can, I can understand that. You know.

Roz: Right.

Max: Anything you want to add before we close?

Roz: Um. I love you.

Max: I love you too. We watched just as an aside for all of you Erica Lust, uh, subscribers, we have two recommendations.

Roz: One was the Nine Delights.

Max: The Nine Delights. Oh my gosh. Four sexy people having sex outside. Like a thunderstorm comes, it's just cinema. And then the other one was like the, the premise was basically like.

Roz: I don't even remember what it was called.

Max: I don't either. But it was two sets of parents, um, I don't know, two sets of parents whose like kids go to the same school and their kids are friends. And so like this swanky high end couple invites them over for dinner and like they. And I'm just like, oh my God, this is turning me on so much because this is like the idea that we're like kicking around this like friends with benefits thing. So anyway, those two would be highly, uh, recommended and I will find the names of those videos and put them in the show notes for you. So. But I'm really looking forward to this event.

Roz: Yeah. And it's, I guess the word would be like reassuring that our, our goals are so like closely aligned. Like, I don't feel like it's gonna be taxing to keep us on the same page.

Max: Yeah.

Roz: So to speak.

Max: Which isn't really surprising considering we've been on the same page for basically our entire lives. But I, I definitely, I feel that too.

Roz: Yeah.

Max: I feel like we're not gonna have to try and slow each other down or speed each other up. I feel like we're kind of right at the same spot. So.

Roz: Yeah. So if you like our show, please subscribe on whatever platform you listen on. And our contact information is in the show notes.

Max: And we haven't said this before, but if you don't mind leaving us a five star review, that would really help with the algorithm. It helps our show get seen. And I know sometimes you don't want to be rating like em podcasts, but. But um, if you can, it really helps.

Roz: Yeah. And you can also find us on Instagram, um, send us a DM or send us an email. So our Instagram is at the Underscore Partnership. Underscore Lab. Or you can send us an email. The partnership lab.

Max: Podcastmail.com in our next episode. We're going to be back. We're going to be talking about the, uh, the event. So that wraps up today's entry in the Partnership Lab. Till next time, stay curious. Bye.

Roz: Bye.

Max: These conversations reflect our own observations and experiences that are not professional or institutional advice. They do not reflect the thoughts or opinions of employers, family or guests, nor imply their approval of the content shared.