Empathy and clarity in the workplace

Speaker A: Foreign. Paradox Podcast. I'm joined by Erin Herman, keynote speaker and leadership strategist, to explore why empathy isn't softness, it's precision. We unpack her keg method, the hidden cost of faking care, and how clarity, courage and curiosity shift tough dynamics into stronger leadership. If you think empathy makes leaders weak, this conversation will prove you wrong. Welcome to the Maverick Paradox podcast. The show for business owners, organizational leaders, and the pathologically curious. I'm, um, Judith Germain, a maverick leadership expert exploring what it really takes to lead in a world that doesn't always make sense. If you're ready to think differently, challenge the status quo, navigate complexity, and drive real impact, you're in the right place. That happens a lot in leadership, where people feel like, uh, if they learn a leadership style or methodology, it will just fit everywhere without actually thinking. No, it needs to be contextualized. It needs to work in that way. And today our guest is Erin Herman. How you doing?

Speaker B: I'm doing wonderful. How are you?

Speaker A: I'm great, thank you. Tell me, what do you, what makes you laugh like a crazy person?

Speaker B: Oh, I love this question. You know, I just had a girls weekend, Judith, and I think whenever I get an opportunity to spend time with my girlfriends that are just, uh, like minded, similar interests, uh, you know, we all have a wonderful sense of humor and I think that's what makes life fun, that's what makes life interesting, is the ability to laugh at yourself and, uh, just enjoy every moment. Always continue to look up. And that's what, that's what we did all weekend long. And it was wonderful.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Tell me a bit more about you.

Speaker B: Sure. Uh, my name's Erin Harmon and I am a keynote speaker. I speak on the topics of change management, uh, creating positive failure cultures, self assurance, uh, and women empowerment. And I have been in this space, uh, working with corporations for a little over 25 years. I, uh, started my career in elevator and escalator sales. So I quite literally was paid to help people move up in the world, literally and figuratively. And, uh, from there I went on to, uh, work at the United Nations Children's Fund in New York and I led their corporate partnership team. And I was with the UN for about seven years. And then from there I transitioned over to St. Jude Allsac down in Memphis and led their corporate partnership team. And this was all previous to me becoming a keynote speaker and workshop facilitator.

Speaker A: So, um, thank you for that. So what I'm interested in today is to explore the, the ability to navigate tough dynamics with clarity and empathy, which I know is kind of your area, and I'm interested because clarity is an obvious one, but empathy, um, we're still lagging behind the understanding that empathy is in fact necessary.

Speaker B: Right, right, right. M. I think clarity is the foundation because you can't have confidence without having clarity. And you also can't have clarity without curiosity. And I think oftentimes in workplace settings and, uh, interpersonal dynamics, there is this predisposition, uh, to make assumptions or to attach our own thoughts and beliefs to maybe why somebody has reacted a certain way or, uh, you know, make, uh, judgments about a certain situation. We're so quick to do that. You know, we. Our brain actually judges within seconds as soon as we meet somebody. And we'll build an entire profile of them within our minds. Yeah, we have to put a stop to that. Right. And we have to have the curiosity to ask questions, to truly get to know people. Which then purports the clarity piece, the empathy piece. Everyone says, oh, I've gotta be, you know, soft, or I've got, you know, how do I have empathy and, uh, still be a leader? And I think, you know, empathy is not softness, emphasis. Empathy is precision. Because without the empathetic elements, you don't have the ability to understand the information you're getting from the clarity and curiosity perspective. So when we attach empathy within the workplace, we have a better understanding of why somebody may be reacting a certain way or why somebody may may, you know, feel uncomfortable or want to lead a team or, you know, is challenging or raising questions on a topic. The empathy piece is the understanding. It's the grace to realize, okay, maybe I don't, you know, agree with this person's viewpoint or what they did, but I understand the grace and the elements to that precision of why they may show up in a certain way. And so we can't overlook the elements of clarity, uh, and curiosity without the element of empathy. And then the last piece I talk on is a growth mindset. And a growth mindset really requires one thing. Uh, and I try and always make things very basic in high, uh, level topics for my audiences. But a growth mindset just requires one thing. It requires you to be uncomfortable. And if you can get uncomfortable when you're met with resistance from team members, from team members, or, uh, uncomfortable with maybe the C suite coming down on you and saying, or the board of directors and saying, hey, we need to understand why we performed in this way or what happened within a certain situation, you can really build infallible self assurance. You can also Build a mentality. And this mentality stretches your team, right? Because at the end of the day, everyone on your team is looking up to you. And if you show that you can be uncomfortable in the most difficult of situations, but you can prevail, that is what separates you from the rest of the pack. And it also helps you become a better leader because you're able to understand again, you've got the curiosity, you've got the grace and the precision of empathy. But then you've got the ability to put yourself into these tough discussions, these tough situations, and really take that information forward in a productive manner.

Speaker A: Brilliant. Thank you. That makes a lot of sense. But I suppose to go back a little bit, how do you define empathy in the first place?

Speaker B: Yeah. So empathy doesn't mean agreeing with everybody just to avoid conflict or, or, um, you know, trying to avoid resistance, which I think a lot of people put that notation to. Uh, it requires you. It actually says, clarity is kindness. Clarity is kindness. And when you lead with empathy and you sit down with somebody and you try and understand, everyone always says, well, uh, you know, I don't agree with how they showed up. Well, I'm not asking you to agree with it. I'm asking you to understand the why behind it. And when you can understand the why behind it from an empathetic viewpoint, where you are really trying to see this other person's perspective, though, you don't have to agree with it. And in 99% of the cases, you won't agree with it because we're all different and we're all built with different value systems that will help you be a very effective leader. In fact, Forbes released a study, um, maybe a year or two years ago, and they said the most important skill set in the workplace not to possess is not authority. It's not being, you know, this, this fabulous leader with, uh, you know, strength and, you know, every other assertion that you would put out there and think. They said the most important skill set to possess in the workplace in today's workplace is empathy. And that if your employees feel supported, they feel understood, they feel connected with you as a leader, they will lead. That will lead to higher 78%, higher job satisfaction rates and a 23% reduction in turnover versus leading in inauthentic or uncaring ways about your staff. I think oftentimes leaders get into these roles and they forget the human dignity aspect, which is, uh. I. I, uh, believe in my own experience, the most important piece to being a leader. I mean, you think about, uh, building friendships and how do we build friendships? We don't do it by leading with authority. We don't build, you know, authentic friendships by, uh, being so tough and so strong that we can't connect with others. In fact, we build friendships when we say, oh, you know, I'm having a hard time here. What are your thoughts? Can we walk through this? Or, hey, can I walk you through this situation and get your viewpoint on it? Um, or we build friendships by supporting one another and saying, I know you're going through a hard time and I care about you and I'm not going anywhere. We do the same thing at work. And it's always funny because people talk about a work Persona and they talk about a personal Persona, but honestly, when we think about the whole person, that's what makes us successful.

Speaker A: Um, thank you for that. I think it's interesting because it's almost as if you might need to give a business case for empathy. Why do senior leaders not see it as, well, self evident that you need it?

Speaker B: I think there's a lot of pressures. I mean, I have a lot of empathy for leaders within their roles. I've been in their leaders, I've led huge teams, you know, billion dollar budgets. And I've been under the pressures that I think so many C suite leaders face day in and day out. And when you're under pressure, people have really two ways of handling that pressure. They have, you know, the avoidant mentality where they're not tapped into their emotions, they're not tapped into the care, uh, side of leadership. And they are, you know, strictly focused on the results, the return on investment, the revenue, uh, the expenses. The other way in which to handle that is to be very conscientious. And when you understand that pressure is truly a gift because it helps us to perform better and it's not a, uh, negative. When you adversely change your mindset around the topic of pressure, it changes how you show up for your team, for your employees and for your organization. And so, uh, you know, we really explore the mindset piece within the growth, uh, the growth elements of my keynotes. Because you can't grow, you can't succeed, right without pressure. But when you change how you view pressure, you are then able to handle it in a much more charismatic and empathetic way, which then delivers the results that you're truly looking for from your team members.

Speaker A: Okay, thank you. Tell me about the KEG method. What is that?

Speaker B: So the KEG method, exactly what, what I, what I ran through, it's the clarity, uh, And. And the courage. So C stands for courage. And you need clarity in order to exude courage. But when I say clarity, I think you really need to look at also the clarity of who you are and how you want to show up as a leader so that you can exemplify courageous decision making and navigate those tough times, uh, within the workplace and with your teams. The empathy element is, again, just connecting with your team members and, uh, you know, understanding why they are there and what motivates each of them. You know, I'll just add, um, one other element on empathy. The most effective thing you can do as a leader is to understand who's on your team. It's to know who they're married to, who are their kids, what makes them happy outside of work. These are basic, um, questions that go the gamut. And when you let people know how much you care about them and that you support them, they'll stick with you during those tough times. They're not going to jump out of the boat when you're roaming through a storm. But that is built through empathy. And empathy drives the trust, empathy drives the connection. Empathy is the heartbeat of your team. And then the growth, growth, mindset piece is what's going to help you navigate those U turns, if you will, those times when you have met failure, but you view it now as a positive opportunity instead of a negative opportunity to grow, to build your team, to enhance your skill set, to learn. I mean, I always tell my kids, uh, what'd you fail at today? I always ask them, what'd you fail at today? And, uh, it's almost become a round robin in our house, because after that, after that question, what'd you fail at? Then I asked them, um, what'd you learn from it? What'd you learn? And how are you going to pivot from it? Because I think about all the wins. I mean, think about every time you've succeeded, Judith, in your life, or your kids have succeeded or your family succeeded. Those feel good in the moment, but they're probably not the moments that you're going to hold onto for years and that are going to redefine who you are in the next 5, 10, 15 years. But I can guarantee you 90% of the world is going to remember when something really stung or something didn't work out. And they're also going to remember how they made that pivot and what they learned from that. And so failure is really those times where we've navigated the uncomfortable, we've grown as an individual, and we've Put into play the strategies in which we want to exude to succeed in the future.

Speaker A: Mhm. I like that. I don't know if you've ever been asked this, but I've certainly delivered leadership training courses, for example, and had somebody say, but can't you just fake empathy? What's your thoughts on that?

Speaker B: Absolutely not. Now I think, you know, people feel it. Uh, you know, I oftentimes talk about energy and you can't fake the energy behind it. And I think people will really know, uh, you know, if you care about them. And when I talk about building empathy, for example, we can talk about, um, the, the previous CEO of Southwest Airlines or Keller. He, he knew every employee's name. They could meet him one time in passing and he would see them a year later and say, hey, Cindy, how are your kids doing? And he may, you know, it may be a baggage handler or a ticket counter desk, uh, employee or a stewardess. And you know, he took the time to get to know people, he took the time to get to know their families and he led with such empathy. And then you think about how that transcended through the organization. And Southwest was known for having the friendliest staff in the skies. They were easy to work with if you needed to change a, uh, seat assignment. They had the lowest turnover in the industry amongst every airline in the world, under 4%. And that really speaks to who the leader was at the top and how he showed up for them. You then look at, you know, other CEOs, uh, that, you know, have come to mind over the years and there's this idea of, hey, I have had this experience. I, I'm, I'm thinking of, you know, the former CEO of J.C. penney's that came in after, um, being an executive at Apple. And he struggled to drive some of the same business initiatives that he tried to replicate from apple over to JCPenney's because he alienated their consumer base and he wasn't empathetic to their purchasing presence. He wasn't empathetic to the consumer that was shopping at JCPenney's. You can't do away with the low price offerings that JCPenney's put forth because in essence, you alienate your consumer base. Uh, and he almost drove the business out of business. And so you have to be empathetic to your consumers. You have to understand what's their driver for showing up. And if you fake it, or you try and replicate it, or you mask it, eventually that will break. And it'll either break through financial performance and run the risk of going out of business or it'll bloom. In the case of Southwest, which is one of the most competitive airlines today, they've grown their presence, uh, twofold, and I think they have a great consumer following. But it starts with you, transcends to your employees, and then connects to the consumer.

Speaker A: M. Thank you. I create clear thinking and decisive leaders who can amplify their influence. Contact me to find out how I can help you or your organization. Thought a couple of things I thought from your example is one, that the leadership that that guy, uh, had obviously wasn't contextualized. And he probably didn't really think about the culture of the organization, just thinking. And I think that that happens a lot in leadership, where people feel like if they learn a leadership style or methodology, it will just fit so everywhere without actually thinking, no, it needs to be contextualized. It needs to work in that way. Um, and even, you know, even I know from being over, being over in the UK that you can't really compare those two organizations. You would, you know, be realistic to, to feel that you need to manage and lead in those places quite differently.

Speaker B: Well, and I think you bring up a good point, and I'll say, you know, I'm guilty, right? I remember the very first leadership role I ever had. I had literally no idea how to manage, how to motivate teams. I was only focused on the one thing that I knew how to, uh, exude, and that was performance. Right. Because as an individual contributor, you're taught to make plan to hit your goals, to recognize that results are what's going to be the determining factor between getting you promoted and increasing your salary and what's going to get you fired. And when you step into management, you oftentimes, not all the time, but oftentimes you lean into what you know, and I leaned into what I knew. And in the process, uh, you know, half my team, more than half my team quit at the UN when I started because I didn't know how to make people feel cared about. I didn't know how to make people feel a part of the team, how to make their feelings feel considered. And that was a really hard lesson to learn. And it didn't happen overnight. There was quite a few bumps and bruises along the way. But I'll tell you, I learned to get really good in uncomfortable situations. And I learned that sometimes we've got to build the model backwards. So you've got to go through the discomfort to reflect and to rebuild and rebrand who you want to be. But when you do that, if you're inauthentic or if it's a one size fits all approach, as you mentioned, it's going to be ineffective. And so you have to think about the long term plan of who you want to be and how you want to show up and then you, you lean forward with, with it. So it's definitely not a one size fits all approach. And since then, Judith, I'll just say I have changed how I lead at every single organization. Not because I'm being a chameleon, but because I have learned how to continually be better, how to build back better things. I need to change ways in which I need to show up differently. And I think that comes from a strong sense of empathy. You know, uh, new, uh, managers, they may just fire people. They don't even think about it. Well, when you've been a seasoned manager for 20 years, you're talking about people's dignity, people's grace, people's livelihoods, uh, you know, how can I coach em up? Can I move them to a different team if this isn't the right role for them? Your whole, uh, mindset shifts. And I think that is across the board in so many different dynamics and elements when you're a manager. But you look at early career to seasoned career and clearly you're going to evolve within that process.

Speaker A: Well, we'd hope not everybody does, unfortunately. I think it's, I think that comes up to me for that. What you were saying is that empathy is often considered a weakness. And I think when people are empathetic at work, especially as they become more senior, you have to almost fight to be empathetic because your peers see it as a weakness, because it's. Because it appears on the surface easier, more effective just to say, do this and I don't care or whatever.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Because it looks like it's effective even though it really isn't.

Speaker B: Yep, and I think that's a great point. You know, when I was, um, working at St. Jude Allsac I St. Jude Children's Research Hospital, Alsac I the very first week I flew down to Memphis to meet the team and I knew I was going to be a remote manager, right. And there was a lot of different teams that I was managing, a lot of different personalities. And when I was on the plane going home then that Friday, I sent an out to everybody on the team and I talked about the theme of team, the theme of team and the elements that I thought were the most crucial and the most effective in building a really Strong team. And then I specifically called out every single person on that team an email where everyone could see their names. And I called out certain intentions and actions that I had notated that I thought contributed to the team that those individuals had exuded over the past five days. And when I sent the email, you know, no one knew me from Adam, and honestly, I didn't know how it was going to be received. But then every Friday thereafter, I would identify a theme for the week. Whether it was charisma, whether it was strength, whether it was a story about supporting one another through, you know, individuals through different difficult times. And I would, I would share a story and then I would share the theme, and then I would notate individuals that I saw exhibit that theme. And I did this every single Friday. And I, I, I never missed a week. And my manager at the time had come up to me and she said, I've never seen somebody build rapport so quickly, especially being. And I said, well, I can't imagine managing this team any other way. Because for me, part of being empathetic is just acknowledging people think how busy we get. You know, we, we check out at the grocery store, we are running to our kids soccer appointments. We fail to recognize others around us, whether it's the crossing guard helping our kids cross the street to get to the parking lot so we can pick them up to take them to the game, or, you know, the, the checker at the grocery store that's helping pack our bags, or, uh, you know, the teacher that maybe instilled just that little bit of extra confidence going into the summer so our kids really feel, uh, that sense of self belief. But when we recognize people, when we say, I really appreciate this about you, and specifically you did this, and it was admirable, um, when I talk about others, I make sure to highlight what they did well to that person. Uh, that makes people feel seen, that makes people feel believed in, that makes people feel valued. Um, and about five months in, when I was at St. Jude, one of my team members came up to me. She knocked on my door. I was just getting ready to head to the airport. And she said, erin, I just want you to know I live for Fridays. And I said, oh, yeah, you know, I like the weekend a lot too. It's great to, you know, go spend time with family and friends. And she said, no, I live for two o' clock on Friday afternoons. And I was thinking, and I thought, well, what is 2:00 clock on a Friday afternoon? And then it dawned on me that is about the time that I send out my email every Friday. And she said, I have saved every single one of your emails. And every Friday when I open up that email, I hope my name's in the email. And in that instance, even when I tell this story and I think about the woman, I get, you know, a little bit emotional because it's those small ways in which we can build empathy and trust with our teams, but we also have such power and influence, and it's so important to utilize it in the right way, and it's so important to be intentional with it.

Speaker A: I love that. That reminds me of a boss that I had when I was younger, and we were all sort of head of HR in a number of different retail stores. And whenever we had our, um, monthly meetings, we always had a monthly meeting in someone else's store. So we always used to travel to get to somewhere else. He always found something to admire out of someone's. What someone had done in that store. And it was always different. And it never felt like participation prize. I mean, it was never. It was never something like, oh, and your place looks really nice. Like, you know, it was always something meaningful. And I think that was so key because because of where all the stores were, there were, like, some stores would be a lot easier to run because, like, you might all have, like, middle, uh, aged women who always. Who don't. So, like, there'd be. Sometimes there'd be stores where the women didn't really have to work, so they just came for, like, pocket money to go on holiday with. So very easily run. No, no issues. And there'd be others, uh, like maybe an urban place where it was lots of theft by younger members of staff or something. So it'd be quite different. But he'd always. You'd always not know what you would be picked for, but, you know, you'd be picked for something good. So, so, so it was a really. And because otherwise you can be situations where like, oh, that store always gets the price for this because they don't do anything, you know. Right, right. Where I'm in another store doing 20 disciplinaries a week. Well, I think.

Speaker B: And think about that. Right, Judith, it still sticks with you today. And it's just acknowledgment that people go back to. And honestly, I don't think there's any bigger compliment. On the flip side, as a manager, you know, since I've gone into keynoting, I've had people reach out through, uh, LinkedIn. Uh, actually, a couple days ago, I had Somebody reach out. And she had said, hey, Erin, I took a look at, uh, a video that you posted online. And I tell this story because first off I talk about creating positive failure cultures and when you fail, it's actually a wonderful experience. But she said, erin, I looked at a video you had online and she goes, um, I don't even know if you remember me. I worked with you 20 years ago. She said, but I remember having a conversation with you. And in that conversational, you were pivotal in me wanting more for myself and building a thoughtful career. And she said, so please take this with the utmost respect, but within your video there's two typos. And I know as a keynote speaker, branding is everything. And she said, uh, I have since become a really seasoned communications expert for a Fortune 500 company. And she goes, I'm trained to identify these. And she said, I just want you to know because just as you wanted me to be successful back in my day, I want the same for you. And I was blown away by the fact that she felt so comfortable and so confident to reach out to me and let me know that. Cause what a tough thing to tell somebody and you don't know how they're going to react when you haven't talked to, um, him in 20 years. And I said, thank you so much. I am so grateful because you've just given me the ability to go in and be better, to correct my mistake and to put forth a better product. And it's just mind boggling to me that those interactions like you mentioned that you have from 15, 20 years ago, when you connect, when you empathize, when you build that trust and that vulnerability with others, like I said, they're not going to jump ship ever, even if you don't see them for a long time. And I think it's so important. But it also, it helps you be a better manager in the long run too.

Speaker A: So yeah, it's a good point because again, it was like, you know, 20 odd years ago, if not more. And you just think, yeah, I still remember that. You know, it's just, and it's, and again. And uh, it would mean nothing knowing the man that he was. It would have, he wouldn't have done it for any like, manipulative purposes. It would, it was just the way he was, you know, and he had a team that was, was willing to do anything, uh, for him because it was just so authentically him. That's a really, um, good place to end, I think. Erin, uh, it's been so great having you on the show.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Judith, for having me. I've really enjoyed speaking with you.

Speaker A: You're welcome. And thank you out there for listening to the Maverick Paradox Podcast. I'm your host, Judith Germain. I hope you've enjoyed today's conversation. You can't lead what you don't influence. The Influence Blueprint reveals how your leadership is really landing and what's silently undermining your impact. Whether you're a leader ready to level up or an HR director, uh, tired of investing in development, that doesn't stick. This is where influence gets real. Find out more at maverickparadox.co.uk influence-blueprint.