Building a Strong Personal Brand in a Competitive Market

Most importantly, I think in terms of marketing is delivering a quality product. It can look really nice. It can look exceptional. If you're marketing well, that might be detrimental even because then people remember you, but not for the right reasons.

Most firms survive, the best ones scale. Welcome to the Managing Partners Podcast, where law firm leaders learn to think bigger. I'm Kevin Daisy. Let's jump in.

What's up, everyone? Welcome to another episode of the Managing Partners Podcast. I'm here today to show my friend Ben Faber, Faber Law Firm. As always, I get to talk backstage a few minutes with my guests, And I love what Ben can bring to the table and what he has to share.

So I'm going to have a lot of fun. As always, trying to bring the best topics and guests and what pain points you all are facing. So always reach out if you have ideas, guests that we should have on the show, topics we should cover. Reach out and let me know that I'll find the best people I can to cover it.

So Ben, welcome to the show. Thank you. Good to be here. Yeah, introduce yourself real quick.

Tell us where you're at and more about your law firm, and then we'll get into some topics about brand and how important that is. Sure. So my name's Ben Faber. I own Faber Law Firm in Columbia, Missouri.

We're right in the middle of the state of Missouri. Practice exclusively criminal defense. It's me, one associate, and some great staff. We're in a college town, so it sort of drives a bit of the business.

We're also in the middle of a lot of rural areas. So we practice in about 11 counties in central Missouri, including the primary caseloads out of Boone County, which is Columbia, where the University of Missouri is. A little more professional, medical insurance and college type demographic. But then, of course, we get smaller towns and a lot of the issues and folks that come out of there.

I've been practicing 13 years now. You know, things are going pretty okay this week. The life of an entrepreneur can look good in the morning. Not so much at the end of the day.

Well, I appreciate you sharing that. And, you know, we were talking one of the topics we were going to cover. And you kind of consider that like a mid-sized market. It sounds like it's really spread out, lots of different little areas and pockets.

So that can be difficult. Yeah, it can be. You know, we've got, we want to face our, you know, our highest value client base, you know, here in Boone County. But we get a lot of great cases from the surrounding areas.

And they're different people with different values. They're looking for different things. so you know balancing all of that has been always on my mind in terms of branding the law firm. Yeah so you know let's kind of dive into that obviously I'm huge on branding and niching and culture and you know when it comes to law firms or any business and it's so important just versus skipping right to you know I want the leads or I want to just you know show up in front of people But I think it's maybe a little bit of the process of how you've navigated that and maybe even when you kind of started to realize and put effort towards that versus kind of just, you know, hey, I started on my shingle and here I am.

You know, what does that life cycle look like? Well, it all started in my basement when I was teaching myself how to use Adobe Illustrator, trying to figure out what my logo was going to look like at two in the morning. the night that my former employer told me that she was closing her practice and that, you know, I decided that this is what I was going to do. You know, from there, you know, we knew we wanted a nice looking product.

And that's not terribly difficult to do, you know, if you put some thought into it. Most importantly, I think in terms of marketing is delivering a quality product. It can look really nice. It can look exceptional.

And if you're marketing well, that might be detrimental even if you're not delivering a good product because then people remember you, but not for the right reasons. So that's always been the most important thing is just being the best or attempting to be the best and delivering exceptional results. But at the same time, you want people to remember you. And we get a lot of, you know, we get a lot of price shoppers.

We get a lot of transplants. We get a lot of people without like, a lot of my referrals come from Google. You know, it's not direct referrals. We get plenty of direct referrals, things like that, attorney referrals.

But a lot of them are people who are shopping. And I'll ask them, where'd you find me? They'll say, on Google. And they'll say, I was impressed by your reviews, right?

And so you get good reviews by delivering a good product, but also by being attentive, you know, following up with happy clients, clients you've made a connection with. But when you're out there in a semi-crowded market, which I would describe, you know, Central Missouri as semi-crowded, there's plenty of work, but there's also plenty of competition. You want to stand out. You want to look like the lawyer that people want to hire.

the difficult part the tricky part of that is knowing and maybe I don't know but I'm trying to figure it out what that is yeah it's everything's your brand so someone calls up and talks to one of your folks on the phone how they handle that how they speak how they carry themselves reflects on your brand reflects on your marketing so yes it's no one ever likes the answer that you have to just do a lot of great things and get things right and do good work and show up and, you know, all these things.

But that's what it takes. That's what these other firms have done. There's no shortcuts to do that. But also to your point, yeah, what is the attorney that they want to hire for the majority, right, of those people in your community?

Is it the sharp-dressed attorney? Is it the, you know, the laid-back attorney? Is it the woman the biggest case wins or, you know, what is it? So I think understanding your market is very important.

But also I think they're looking for authenticity, that you're not coming up with some gimmick or some kind of scheme to try to look like the attorney they want to hire But honestly I think the one they want to hire is the one that has great reviews and delivers a good product and follows up You know, to me, that's the one they should want to hire. Right. No. And placing yourself in a position to be identified, I think, as that person is the difficult part, right?

Because they don't know. you google you know best criminal lawyer columbia mo right you're gonna get several shiny websites um nice looking lawyers you know nice looking suits little scrolling uh tidbits from their favorite reviews um you know five stars on avo and things like that or 10 i'm looking over here 10 10 points and then yeah five stars i don't know what the difference is um throwing all that stuff out there and um you know you can't differentiation can be difficult you know you can market yourself as the i've seen a one that i liked uh and i think like the state of washington it was a guy he said uh representing good people charged with dwi that was his that was his message as what I'm looking for people who perceive themselves as good people who also have a DWI um now there's other guys out there um you know he leans into the I'm the guy you call if you're guilty um because I'll because I'll get you off right um he wants people who are desperate and scared and are looking for the lawyer that will help them in that circumstance.

You know, so just figuring out a lot of it. And like you said, authenticity is important. Figuring out who you are, who you and it's like, I guess you could fake it. You know, I guess I could, you know, I could lean into like country lawyer.

Get some cowboy boots or bolo tie. Get you a hat. Yeah, exactly. Wear a hat.

Yes, ma'am. That kind of stuff. And, you know, there's probably a lot of good old boys out there. I know for a fact that some of my competition, that's who they are.

That's authentically them. And they connect with those clients. And to be honest, I'm not really competing. Well, I am, but if they meet with me and they meet with them, they like them better.

And that's fine, right? They have a better connection. But if I'm faking something like that, then I'm not doing anyone any favors. So figure out who you are.

I think my marketing is professional. I think that's probably the best way to describe is professional and polished that's what I try to deliver I feel like the language that I use in my letters the language that I use when I'm responding to client emails the way I dress professional and polished and it's just all sort of part of the brand but it's also who I am so it's easier to leverage when you're not out there trying to convince people to hire you because of some gimmick.

Yeah. No, I agree. I think there's a lot of lawyers laid back or they show up on here with a T-shirt on. They've been hanging out.

So there's a lot of newer firms and newer folks and like, oh, I'm different because I'm not dressed in a suit and all nice and neat. But at the end of the day, people expect a lawyer to be put together. They expect them to have clean, concise communication and letters and know how to draft an email and things like that. So I think there's a place for all of it.

And I think back to a point where you can Google and find 10 other people that have also done everything that looks right. So there's some stiff competition. You can't just get away with not going to work, that's for sure. Like you definitely have to be on your game these days and everyone's putting the right things in place.

So, you know, your brand, your personal brand, how you stand out is, that's your differentiator, right? Because they might go to the cowboy guys. And I got some clients like that, that are good old boys, but they might not like that. They might, you know, then they come to you.

So it's, everyone has the ability to have a place in their market. but back to Ben's point you have to do really good work you have to follow up you have to do the reviews you have to do a lot of crap to just be at a basic level these days yeah and you want to do both or maybe you don't right I want to do both I'm the one star lawyer call me well what I'm getting at I guess is like I have I'm thinking of someone specific one of the more skilled lawyers that I know who does a great job.

His clients love him. Everything about him is excellent. He doesn't really market that much. And that's fine with him.

He's not trying to grow his law firm. He's a little bit older than I am, just for example. And he gets good cases and he has the caseload that he wants. And that's great.

But, you know, for me, I want to grow my firm. I want to bring in more business and, you know, hire more lawyers and all that. So finding a way to be out there and executing on lead generation, it's important. And I think, you know, marketing is really the only way to, effective marketing is really the only way to increase that, especially, you know, when you have competition.

Yeah, I absolutely agree. Sorry. Oh, go ahead. Sorry.

Well, and on the other hand, I forgot that I was, I forgot that that was only half my point. On the other hand, you can, but this guy's talent and skill is what he has to offer for as his brand. And that's fine. If you know who he is, then you're going to go to him.

Or if you know somebody who used him, then you're probably going to go to him. On the other hand you can have very effective marketing and have tons of calls coming in and have people answering the phone and following up and taking money right You know converting you know maybe it a lower conversion rate but your leads are you know, five times what I'm getting or something, but you're not executing on the product. You're not delivering good results. You're not establishing yourself as a premier lawyer in the community.

Your clients might be happy, but that only goes so far if you're bullshitting them, telling them that you got them a good deal when you're not. Eventually, if you're building a house of cards, it's going to fall. So supporting your brand with the product is super critical. 100%.

I was going to say, I know a lot of firms that just don't want to grow. They're comfortable, and that's totally fine. Most people on this show that listen to the show, they're trying to grow. They're trying to expand.

And they're trying to, maybe they're not trying to be the biggest firm in the world, but they want to move ahead, move forward. If you're doing that, you need to do those things right. You need to take care of the clients, put the good work product out, get the good results. So, I mean, it comes down to, yeah, there's a lot of stuff you have to do right.

And then if you're doing that piece and then you turn the marketing on and you find channels that work for your market and your area, it's magical what can happen. and then growing, scaling becomes much easier. We were also talking about, I know you're big on hiring and so am I. Your brand, how your firm operates, how it handles its clients and customers definitely impacts your hiring capability.

Because people don't want to work at a firm that's like a marketing machine, but does shit work? Or does it fall with the clients? Because they're not going to stay because they're going to feel bad about what's being done. And if you've got a great brand in your market, Much easier because other people have heard of you, paralegals, associates.

Oh, man, I really want to work for Ben Faber. Like, since he's hiring, like, I'm ready to go. So, you know, the brand and the things that you're doing is helping on all aspects of your company, in my opinion. Yeah, absolutely.

Well, and that's, and it does tell us right back into what you were saying before, where if you're hiring anybody, right, anybody and everybody, if you're trying, you know, if all you're looking for is growth, then that house of cards is going to fall. You got to find good people who are interested in delivering the same product, like being successful in the way that you value success. With integrity, you know that you're doing the best job for these people you possibly can. You want someone else who will do that, who's not just there to get a paycheck or who's not just there to, you know, get more billables so they can get more salary so that they can be a partner so that they can, you know, make more money, right?

Like, that's all great. That'll happen. But finding the best people to that share that like mission, right, is super important. And that can be difficult because those people are valuable.

So like you were saying, having that having a reputation, you know, that's probably the most valuable thing you have. These old heads are like, that's all you need. You don't need a website. You just need a reputation.

Now people are like Googling lawyers with a good reputation. so it doesn't really you kind of need both um yeah yeah google's not like chat gpt you can just ask it questions and it'll you know it's acting just like like that so the way we're searching area that i'm just just i mean i'm not i'm not giving it any energy um but we're getting a few now where we say how'd you find us and they say chat gpt or grok or you know claw whatever um And that seems to be happening naturally, which is good.

Because of reputation. It's because of reputation. Well, that is branding, right? And because of existing SEO, reviews, branding, yeah.

People will get mentioned by those platforms that haven't put effort into their presence. I think so. Yeah, I hope so. You know, and the other part of hiring, too, like my new hire, her name is Nicole.

a friend of mine who had been you know practicing law like a colleague right a long-time colleague I call him for help on matters that are outside of my practice area he calls me for help called me for help on matters that you know may have been new or complex or just otherwise just wanted someone to bounce ideas off of he's transitioning into something different and he had an employee and you know over just like by being out there being in the community and that's another part we haven't really talked about like community-based marketing just being being involved being friendly being around um you know he called me and he said hey i'm transitioning i need somewhere for my for my associate to land i only thought of you right and so like what some of that's luck but it's also just because i i think you know the the community-based marketing uh also known as not being an asshole um can can really pay off um in in special ways yeah and and he knew she was gonna go to a good place and has the same values as you so a couple different points there you know yeah you can mark your way to get in ton of leads and do a shit job right and still maybe has some success for a while.

But if you never invest in the community, you don't show up. You're not really investing and building that, you know, those deep relationships. Then you're missing a big part. So yeah, you can just market your way, not be part of the community, not do a great work.

It's a house of parts, to your point. It's not going to last. And when you do all those things, then you're really building something. And that's when people go, I can't compete with Ben Faber.

Ben's done the work he's spent the time, he's done all the things so yeah, it's hard to compete and replicate that unless you start doing all these things right it's not the answer people want to hear but if you want to plan strategy then that's what you have to start figuring out how can we start to accomplish these things and it's not overnight that's for sure it's not overnight and it's not easy it's definitely not it's hard it's really hard i think most most most lawyers who are interested and capable of doing good work are are also capable of competing um and you know being successful in terms of you know caseload and and high value clients and things like that It doesn take like a lot of talent I not skilled in coaching baseball I'm not skilled in advertising.

I'm not skilled in website design or SEO or graphic design or copywriting or anything like that. But if you put a little bit of attention into everything that you do and all the people who need it and all the people who ask for it, whether it's being kind to law clerks or not law clerks, court clerks, being kind to security at courthouses, being kind to your mailman or the people who deliver you food or chatting with your plumber, right? Put your grocery cart back. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, absolutely. People, if that guy's out there, we, we, we, we, and I'm on there and the wrong person picks it up and redoes it. I mean, yeah. I mean, it could all come crashing down to, you know, one bad moment.

We've seen it. You know, we saw it. Don't cheat on your wife. Right.

That'll hurt. Don't be, you know, that's it. Don't be an asshole. Get out there and do the right thing.

And if someone asks you for $100 for their Boy Scout, Eagle Scout project or something like that, give it to them. You know, it pays off just paying attention to everything. And that includes that. That's inside and outside of your business, right?

Yeah, it's hard. A lot of people who live in our business sometimes and don't get out to think about the rest of the community that we're in. So I love it. So don't be an asshole, everyone.

That's the lesson today. But I love it. It makes it simple to wrap your head around it, right? And then back to the hiring part, me and Ben were chatting to others.

It's like almost all my team comes from referrals from my team. And if you have a good team that believes in what you believe in, has integrity, whatever it is, you're basically asking them who do they want to work with. And if they have someone, oh, I got a great friend, they're not going to want someone to come into the organization that they don't want to work with. So, you know, but if you build a good culture, have a good brand and people will line up.

A lot of attorneys are having problems with finding people but if you do the things that Ben's doing and what we're talking about, it definitely gets easier. It's never easy just to find people or hire people but it'll make it better that's for sure. Yeah I agree. I think exactly like you said, it's not easy.

It's a challenge. Hiring is the least my least favorite thing um i dread it the most um putting putting the time in to meeting with people and you know and then you end up connecting with a few of them and then you got to be the guy that you know picks one um and then you got to train that person and they and you might have been wrong i mean it's terrible but sometimes it really pays off i mean we've got um got a legal assistant who's been with me since pretty much day one. So gosh, almost nine years, something like that, eight, nine years.

And then I've got another one. I think we're on like year three or four. And that's really the core team, right? And then we cycle in law clerks and interns.

Being in a college town, we go to law school here. So they come for three semesters, four semesters, something like that. then move on you know back to St. Louis or Kansas City or Chicago or whatever and get a job even though I'm like Columbia's great come work for me that's another challenge right stay here when you're competing with bigger metropolitan areas and these you know these people who are critical to my success like they're they're bought in they don't they don't come in late don't skip work they know they know that what we do is important they know that we've got a lot of people that rely on this office not just me the office as a whole uh to get them through this time in their life and they're bought in and that's super important well bet i appreciate you sharing uh your story and and your thoughts and stuff like what you're doing in your market.

And I think it's just a great real talk, right? You have folks out there trying to grow their farms in a different market or a midsize market or trying to figure things out. And real talk with Ben Faber. Don't be an asshole.

And things will go a lot better for you across the board. I think so. Yeah. Well, what's the best way for folks to connect with you, find you online?

Google me. Website, LinkedIn. Yeah. Google me.

Ben Faber, ComoCriminalDefense.com. That's for Columbia, Missouri. Counties sometimes call it Como.

ComoCriminalDefense.com. I'm on Twitter. I've got a LinkedIn.

Not terribly active on those platforms, but I'm around and we service. like I said about 11 counties in central Missouri so you know if it's not St. Louis or Kansas City we'd probably go there. Nice good yeah any lawyers listening that need a criminal defense attorney having referrals or situations with clients please connect with Ben and of course if you're watching this leave a comment if you want to connect with Ben directly I'm happy to make the introduction and if he's not on LinkedIn a lot, he will be once this episode drops.

So we'll see. Let's see you out there. Well, Ben, yeah, we'll just propose for you. Well, thanks so much for sharing.

I love the story. I love the simplicity and some of the concepts we talked about. And he's 100% right. So I hope you found it helpful.

And we'll see you on the next episode.