ATOS and EQUALREACH: Digital skills in an AI world

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Lens with me, Sarah Travers. The Lens is a business in the community podcast in partnership with One Young World. I'm really pleased to introduce our guests to you today. They are Michael Herron, head of Atoz UK and Ireland, a uh, global AI powered digital transformation provider and European leader in agentic AI digital sovereignty and um, cybersecurity. The group provides tailored end to end solutions for all industries in 61 countries. And joining Michael, I'm glad to introduce our second guest, Giselle Gonzalez, who is the founder and CEO of Equalreach, a social enterprise that connects teams of displaced and host community tech talent with dignified digital work. In this episode we will be discussing digital skills in an AI world. As we know it's an ever changing and fast paced arena that presents challenges and opportunities and one, um, every company is talking about and interested in. So let's get into the conversation. Michael, Giselle, you're very welcome to the Lens.

Speaker B: Thanks so much for having us.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker A: You're welcome. It is such a hot topic right now, so I'm keen to hear your take on those challenges and indeed those opportunities. But first of all, we like to get everybody introduced to our listeners. So Michael, if you could tell our listeners about yourself, how you've come to be in your role at Atoz, a little bit about Atos too, how you've journeyed into technology, and if you want to talk to us about what you do outside of work too, then that would be great as well.

Speaker C: So in terms of my background, following some education, I started working in the uh, public sector for government. I'd done um, some education in politics, but I started work um, at the Ministry of Defence as a civil servant. And from um, those very early years in my career, about 27 years ago, I was quite quick to spot the role of technology in improving both government citizen services and a big enabler for business. So I spent some time in public sector and then I spent the majority of the last 20 years or so in uh, two or three private sector and now with Atoz as the CEO of our UK operations, my job is to lead the firm and lead our customers through the AI revolution that we are seeing now and will continue to see for many years to come. So super, super exciting from a personal perspective. Um, I'm married to Emma, she's uh, also spent a career in public sector for government. But I'm delighted to say she, after many, many happy years working there, she's given that up and she's just about start her own gardening business. And in the age of AI, I can assure you, certainly near where we live, um, there is a shortage of gardeners.

Speaker A: Lovely. Giselle, over to you. Next.

Speaker B: Sure. So I'm Giselle Gonzalez, the founder and CEO of equalreach. We, we are a project, uh, marketplace, much like an upwork or fiverr, and we have vetted teams of agencies around the world who also happen to come from displaced backgrounds that we connect to those projects. The whole reason why we exist is to create fair, uh, economic and, uh, digital inclusion opportunities for, um, refugees and marginalized, uh, youth, um, working together, um, uh, through the digital economy, uh, where we really see peace as, uh, or opportunity as a pathway to peace. And we're leveraging online opportunities where local opportunities may be barred for some individuals. As I've spent the last 10 years working with displaced communities, and pre Covid was one of the first to research this emergence of digital work among refugees and realized it was this incredible new frontier, but also there were so many invisible barriers that existed. I then went into tech and I built Amazon's first way to connect refugee talent to digital work. And while there, I realized that it was both an incredible business opportunity and strategy. Not just, you know, a side CSR initiative to include diverse talent, but also could create a new pipeline to overlooked, uh, remarkable talent that had the skills that businesses needed and at the same time create really robust change within communities, bolstering regional economies where refugees are and making sure that they were included and not excluded from the future of work. We've, over the last two and a half years, built a tech platform to make it as simple as possible to make those. Those connections. And now I, uh, get to have great conversations like this to figure out how we can be a part of changing the way the private sector outsources for good.

Speaker A: Goodness. I was going to ask you a little bit. Do you do gardening in the. When you're off, but it sounds like you don't have any spare time at all with doing such good.

Speaker B: Well, I will say I love being outside and biking, and I moved to Oxford recently, and I will say some the best biking trails I've ever come across are along the river, uh, out here. So last weekend I was biking down to my favorite bakery. I, um, was fighting off some geese trying to get my croissants. But that is one of my favorite ways to just disconnect and, you know, literally touch grass sometimes in the midst of the. The complex digital work that we do.

Speaker A: I want to hear so much more about the incredible work that you do, Giselle, as an award winning social entrepreneur. And is it any wonder disrupting the way private sector outsources for good? But let's get into today's topic. Let's just go wider. First of all, digital skills in an AI world. Okay. Every single day people are talking about AI and there's still a lot of fear around it, isn't there? Uh, Michael, But I'd love your thoughts on this. Is AI going to replace humans in jobs?

Speaker C: So I've got a very direct answer to that. And the answer is yes. It's followed up by AI is also going to create a whole new bunch of roles as well. So will AI change the nature of business going forward? Yes, it will. And it's doing that now. And my job is to make sure that ATOs are armed and ready for that. We are becoming what's called a software services software organization where if you think about the agentic AI agents, they will handle the kind of repeatable, specialist, data intensive work and operate at uh, phenomenal pace and speed and scale. Whereas the humans and the people in our workforce here will be focusing on the value that they can bring around intent, judgment, quality and accountability. So, um, I'm super passionate about people being at the heart of everything that we do. I think, uh, my job is to ensure that we have future proof roles for our people. And today we have roles that are disappearing. That is a truism. But we have existing roles that are also evolving into different shape roles. And we have brand new roles, new roles that in those mixed human and agentic AI teams, new roles for our people. And I think sometimes, Sarah, the media focus a little bit on that middle column that is the roles that are disappearing. My focus is on those other two columns of those roles that are evolving and they're brand new roles. For every revolution we've ever had in the country, new roles have been created. Something like 65% of roles today did not exist at the end of the Second World War. And it will be the same in 70 years time. We just have new roles. I'm, um, super, super hopeful for our uh, people. I think if anything they'd be doing even bigger and better roles. And I think AI is going to make people brilliant.

Speaker A: I love that statement. I love that optimism. And yes, I can also support that the media does tend to concentrate on the jobs that are going. I believe that too. You're a father as well, Michael, so you're hopeful for your children and your grandchildren's future, that there will still be a World of work out there.

Speaker C: I am because I've got two boys myself, they're 14 and 11. I'm going through the same discussions as every other parent. Do I send them to uni, do I not? Maybe I go down apprentices route. Even if I did send them beauty, what are they going to study that isn't then going to be replaced or by, by AIs? But then I wake up every day and realize I'm a CEO of a major technology firm and so I can do something about it. And I am doing something about it by the introduction of our new career portfolio models, which has new roles for our people and technology, I massively see as an enabler. I think we're probably talk about AI for good later. But uh, my youngest boy, I mean both my boys are AI literate. Yeah. I mean they give chatgpt answers to pretty much any question I ask them these days. So they're going to turn up to the workforce AI literate. That's a good thing, I think. And then my youngest, after, He's a type 1 diabetic, has been since the age of three. And every year technology is helping his condition. It's getting better and better and better where one day soon they have a closed loop system where his pump won't have to do anything, it will just operate in itself and he'd have to stop injecting himself. And so technology can be figured out and AI is a key part of that. So yeah, there's risks associated with it, which we'll discuss later, but we must leverage the power and the benefits of it as well.

Speaker A: Giselle, what does AI look like for you in your world, particularly in the context of those digital skills and jobs out there and the opportunities, I suppose, that it provides to the people that you empower, I suppose with your work. Tell us a bit more about what Equal Reach is doing and just how difficult is it out there to make sure that you don't get left behind?

Speaker B: I'll say the work that we do is all about how do we ensure that refugees and young people around the world aren't excluded from the digital economy. That was the conversation long before AI was introduced. And now suddenly with AI on the table. I remember I was in, uh, Kampala, Uganda a couple of months ago. And I frankly went with a lot of fear and anxiety looking at the headlines of just like Michael was saying, kind of the, the narrative that tends to get perpetuated about the fear around AI. And I would come to these meetings with our, uh, local partners and say, basically express all, all of my concerns. And they were saying, no, no, no, Giselle, you're looking at this all wrong. This is the first time we have ever had such democratized access. Like for the first time, we can compete with those who have master's degrees in marketing. We can compete with those who have had 15 years of experience. Like, we can create at a much faster pace. We can access knowledge like never before and access, um, new ways of working. For me and all of our teams, we have a B2B model as a business. So we partner with hyperlocal refugee, supporting um, nonprofits that have agency spinouts. We work with refugee collectives, refugee led businesses. And we're constantly in conversations with them of making sure. How are you adopting the newest, uh, skills and tools to make your work that much more stronger and compelling to the service, to the businesses that you work with rather than getting left behind by AI? You asked about the difficulties. And I think one thing that does keep me up at night is in this new wave of technology and opportunity that we're seeing, I really do think that if we aren't proactive about addressing those kind of risks of exclusion from our boardrooms, from our positions of power, like Michael, I loved what you said of, you know, I look around and I'm a tech CEO, I, I can make these decisions. When I, I was having a conversation a couple of days ago with a former, also one, uh, young world ambassador, Ilwad Elman. She's a three time Nobel, uh, Peace prize nominee for her, uh, advocacy work in Somalia. And she was telling me about Somali youth. 70% of the country are under the age of 35. Young people want peace so, so desperately. And so they're looking into business and they're getting entrepreneurial to create that peace through opportunity. You look at these big systems of change and you, you can't drive towards more peaceful, stable societies if opportunities aren't there. And they're also seeing AI as this, uh, this great frontier. But the invisible barriers of access is that the major AI partners or um, platforms like Claude or ChatGPT, they're block listed for all of Somalia. Young people, if they're vlogging million followers on YouTube, they can't monetize that because stripe is blocklisted for the country. If they put up a song on Spotify and it gets millions of downloads, they can't monetize that and they can't earn an income. And so when we think about all of the opportunity that technology and these new waves of AI bring One of the conversations I continually want to have, and I think the role of business is uniquely equipped to have, is how do we make sure that this benefits everyone and that people are included and not excluded. When I was at Amazon, it was as easy as one email to PayPal to say, we have a business case for opening up payment, uh, solutions for uh, a people group that has traditionally been excluded and suddenly uh, there was access for an entire country that was put on an allow list. Like those are the types of decisions we can make as business leaders. But as we look ahead to AI, it's recognizing those challenges of exclusion, um, but seeing what we can do about it.

Speaker A: And Giselle, I don't know if you have any figures to hand on the numbers of displaced people or refugees globally right now. I mean, can you actually reach them all or, you know, what is the model? You've talked about that B2B model. But how does it work on the ground? Because sometimes AI and digital skills can be a bit abstract. So just if you could explain to our listeners how does it actually work and um, how do you reach the people you need to.

Speaker B: Yet globally there are about 120 million forcibly displaced people. These are refugees, people who have been displaced within their country. Let's say, you know, their region was flooded so they have to move to another part of the country. Over half of those are young people with marketable digital skills seeking work and purpose, just like you or I. So you've got this, like MIT for example, has this brilliant software development program where uh, they work, they do full, you know, micromasters for refugee talent. But then you have refugees who are sitting in a refugee camp where no business knows they exist. They've got this incredible certification and these skill sets and yet a business, let's say a great uh, new gardening company that needs a website from the uk. They probably need some help building out a website because they want to focus on, you know, building out their gardening business. And so rather than going in and learning those skills themselves, they can either get AI to do it or they can get the help of a team, maybe utilizing AI to, to help build that as kind of a flexible project that that company can outsource. And so what Equal Reach does is we just provide the uh, that marketplace for that to happen. So we source a project opportunity, let's say creating a new website or having someone manage social media, and then we shortlist one to three teams who are pre vetted for the requirements of those projects from that kind of population of refugee led and supporting Businesses. And what we're seeing is that all of these teams are utilizing AI in their fields, whether it's digital marketing or web development, app development. AI is now a key part of how they're able to deliver, to deliver higher quality services faster and better than before.

Speaker A: And they can work from anywhere. And, um, they just need access to what, a phone or a computer?

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Wow, it's really incredible. So, Michael, you need to tell Emma that she has to get our new website, uh, designed there through equal reach, definitely for that gardening business. Okay. That is incredible. I think, you know, just when you break it down for us like that, you can see the transformation to people's lives that can take place because they can earn some money, do it from wherever. This is where AI is really for good. Michael, what do you see as the big AI opportunities and benefits for organizations? You've talked there about the, the jobs that perhaps we don't even know about yet, that don't even exist yet. So there are those opportunities. But I'd love to see, because you're leading the way there, and this is what your atoz does, is to just tell our listeners as well what they should be doing right now, what opportunities they should be taking.

Speaker C: I am, uh, an AI optimist because I think despite the risks, it will deliver great benefits to people and to society. I think the people will be freed up to do more meaningful work, which is back to my point about how it will make people brilliant. Getting rid of doing more menial tasks and allowing them to do much, much more visible and value add tasks. There was a fantastic case study in, uh, another European country where this firm went in and interviewed a load of GPs and doctors about what they loved and what they hated about their job. And what they loved about their job was saving people's lives and making people better. What they didn't like was all the guff and the admin and the paperwork and everything else. And so the firm went to task and in essence eliminated all of the guff and the admin. And uh, guess what? More people were saved and more people were happier. But AI will change the fundamentals of business. I think commercial models will change, be much more value based, outcome based business models will change. So I would encourage businesses to rethink structures of their business and what the output should be. So much more movement from traditional views of inputs to big, big focus on outputs and outcomes. So you know, we've been through numerous technology revolutions before and we get through this one as well. We just need to adapt and Keep up with the pace because this one is probably bigger and faster than any tech revolution before.

Speaker A: Yeah, and when you're rethinking structure, sometimes people can really not know where to start. Have you any advice on that?

Speaker C: So what's the term? You know, don't eat the whole elephant. Pick out I think either certain applications or certain processes or certain parts of your business and apply AI there and do it well. Right. So that might be, as I say, a particular application that is fundamental to the business or maybe it might be a function like your HR function or your commercial function. And then when you prove them the benefits, then you can look at scale. Uh, my other piece of advice would be don't just look at the technology. In fact, look at that last look at your underlying business architecture and business processes and make sure that they are fit for purpose. Because if you put tech on an old process, you're only going to get X amount of return, I think, from your AI. Those organizations that are doing it really, really well are putting much more effort into their business processes and business architecture and then they focus on the tech. So it's a slightly longer game but the returns you get from AI would be much, much, much more profound if you do it that way around.

Speaker A: Well, I hate to bring it back to risks again. I'm just talking about that keyword trust. Um, you know, how can businesses build trust when using AI? Uh, we're hearing now that they have to be open and transparent and say we used AI to help with whatever process or in what we do and then immediately alarm bells uh, can sound in customers heads or again is that just the media whipping us all into a frenzy?

Speaker C: No, I don't think it is the media actually on this one. I think, you know, as much as there is opportunities, there's also risk for sure. My view on this is I think you need to do that toe to toe to stop the AI in the tech running off if you like. You know, the right safeguards and controls need to be placed at uh, all times. For me, my observation is that uh, we aren't there yet as a society. I think there's much more controls and ethics and governance required. I think everyone's thinking about it, but the tech is moving a bit faster. So we've got to move at a really quick pace I think. On the, on the ethics side, I read a fascinating quote in the Sunday papers yesterday from a AI researcher called Conor Leahy where he said there's more regulation on selling a sandwich to the public than there is on building potential godlike intelligence by AI fueled private companies.

Speaker A: That's so true. Yeah.

Speaker C: So you know all the stuff in the press at the moment around anthropic and you know, these new models that are coming out that could threaten existence. If you look at some, um, articles. This is the piece here though. Yeah. You need the right regulation safeguards around because those risks do exist. There was a very small example a couple of weeks ago, um, someone that I know reasonably well and he was playing around with um, some new AI tooling on the Friday, basically didn't switch it off, came back on Monday and he had a bill of £900,000 because the agents had gone rogue.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker C: So the finops associated with it, ah, there's sussops, sustainability, there's ethical ops, all it's a three dimensional issue, not just technology. Sarah, I think is my point.

Speaker A: Giselle, I'd love to know your thoughts there. How can businesses build trust when using AI?

Speaker B: Since day one, our team has talked about how trust is our most important currency. And in an AI age, I think that becomes one of the most important things for us to keep at the forefront of what we do. It informs the product decisions that we make. It informs the business partnerships we enter into, the way we think about vets, vetting, compliance, tax, all the, you know, less exciting bits of the business to make sure that we are not breaking trust with our clients, with the teams that we work with, um, uh, you know, at every step along the way. And when we think about how do we leverage AI and technology to further our mission, it really starts with the mission. We don't just find a cool new shiny tool and then try to work backwards to solve a problem. We are working in really complex, messy systems. When we think about how do we drive fair economic and digital inclusion of refugees, these are complex systems that need governments, policymakers, it needs businesses, it needs small grassroots organizations all the way up to massive INGOs, each playing their own part. And there's no one piece of technology, there's no one organization that can solve for this AI, can speed up our response and help us, uh, address these major systemic challenges faster, but only if we are the ones behind the wheel on, uh, the back ends, not letting AI lead for the sake of AI or the sake of the next shareholders report. So I think really making sure that trust and that mission and that why is rooted first and foremost in how we lead and how we build and then using AI as the tools to do that.

Speaker A: And going back to Michael's analogy there, the Sandwich analogy. What role does government have here in ethics, in governance and you know, obviously protecting society, protecting the human race? Michael.

Speaker C: I mean, for me, I think I do have a big responsibility, especially around, um, yeah, I think, you know, the guidelines and the frameworks around ethics and responsible business. I think setting that out is key. But equally I don't think we should just, uh, wait and see what government comes up to. The responsibility is on business as well. I'm not going to wait for that. I have to put my own guidelines in place, um, around that trust piece, around the ethics piece. I think all businesses should be doing that. But as with all big societal issues and opportunities, it's the role of both business and government want to stay on top of this and um, provide the

Speaker A: right direction and I suppose for other businesses then, Michael, they want to know where do I turn to, to make sure that I have the right code of practice in place, the right ethical approach to AI in my business? I want to get it right. Where should I go?

Speaker C: So some of it exists at the moment, some of it doesn't. I think, you know, I would go with government to start with. There are some good guidelines and frameworks out there. There's been a lot being done at the global and international level as well, but it's uh, at different levels of maturity. And this is the fascinating piece about the topic. I didn't have all of the answers and no one does, but it doesn't mean that we should be absent in finding those answers. So I think it goes back to, uh, being controlled and sensible in the pace of adoption and ensuring that your ethics and responsible business frameworks are moving toe to toe with the pace of your technology. That would be the best advice. And um, to work with others, both in business and in government, because we have some answers, but not all of them.

Speaker A: And mistakes are happening. But, you know, how do we, how do we support people in the transition? We've never seen such transformation in our lifetime. Giselle, that same question to you then.

Speaker B: What we did when we were first starting equal reach. There were few examples of what fair, non exploitative digital work looked like for bringing in refugees. Um, and so from the beginning, kind of with my researcher hat on, I really looked at where can things go wrong and how do we build a counterpoint to each of those, uh, biggest risks of exploitation, of exclusion of, you know, low quality work, all of those challenges and help define what good looks like. And from the beginning we went to the organizations that could be our biggest critic. So I went and approached and worked with the International Labor Organization who define those standards. And so I think it's scary for businesses, but very intentionally seeking out and working with those who are keeping those public standards and public good in the forefront of their mind. It gives you a really strong counterbalance. And so I think, however, we can find those experts who can challenge our perspective and invite them in the room. I think those are really helpful ways that we can make sure our businesses are more resilient for the long term, but also make sure that we aren't blindsided by our own incentives. I, uh, think it is the right, the right thing to do. And uh, I think the scariest bit with how fast AI moving is, we don't have a lot of incentives right now to slow down and to bring those external discussions in because nobody wants to get left behind. Is this good and is this the right thing to do for the long run or for the stakeholders that aren't in the room and aren't in those, those seats of power yet decide how AI shapes our future?

Speaker A: Michael, do you want to add anything to that?

Speaker C: I think it's, uh, as I say, a three dimensional topic. It's, it's the same and different for different businesses. I think there are some commonality around some of the opportunities and risks. But, uh, my encouragement would be for business to look at what's specific for them and where the potholes and banana skins are and also where the opportunities are.

Speaker A: And Michael, you have said already that you're an AI optimist. Giselle.

Speaker B: Are you? I am. If we can wield it rather than be replaced by it. I'm an optimist.

Speaker A: Well, I think we always love to hear examples of transformation. And given the work that you do, Giselle, uh, it would be great to start with you just to hear some of those examples of where those digital skills and indeed AI has transformed a life.

Speaker B: I could go through so many stories. One example I'll give is we work with an incredible marketing team out of Uganda. And about a year and a half ago, one project that came through our platform was from a Nonprofit that had 30 hours worth of content that they needed put into social media, real format. They didn't have the in house expertise and so they just needed this kind of deliverable based project with kind of a fixed one off cost. They ended up working with this team who used an AI tool to help, you know, take those 30 hours. It probably did maybe 70, 80% of the work. And then they used their judgment, they used the project management, they used that Relational trust building with the client to really refine what needed to be delivered. The client loved working with them so much that they came back when they uh, had their next project, which was okay, actually, not just editing these videos, but can you run our social media management? And then they came back and said, actually we're putting together a curriculum for high school students on this new um, uh, educational topic. Can you design our curriculum? And all along the way it was just piece by piece, trust was getting built. And as these teams took on more projects, not only was it creating incredible opportunities that were these teams were getting paid four to ten times higher wages than the highest paying local jobs in Uganda. Accessing international clients for the first time. Just last week they came back with another website, uh, creation project for a couple thousand dollars, which seems really small for the business or nonprofit, but for this team that will have dramatic impacts for their communities. We tend to see that for every project or job created, even if it's a couple weeks, the impacts uh, of those dollars go on to impact five others. So it just has this ripple effect. And this is not going in and thinking of a refugee as a beneficiary, uh, of someone that you can give aid to. A very kind of top down approach. It's actually treating someone like the expert in the room. So when we have these calls where we connect a team with a client, the power dynamics shift, it's suddenly less of a conversation of oh, hi, how can I help and support you? But actually a business here in the uk, uh, a startup, uh, talking to a developer saying you're the expert, expert, what AI tools should I be using to integrate into my business? Like how do I, what do you recommend for this marketing campaign? It really, it's an exciting space to be because we see where opportunity is provided. Dignity also follows. Uh, if we can do that.

Speaker A: Well, my goodness, incredible work and just giving that agency and that dignity to people and being that expert in the room, which exactly what they are. And, and that is the potential of, you know, boosting digital skills, making sure that everyone is trained. So wonderful work, Giselle. Michael, can you share any examples? Maybe at a different level?

Speaker C: I find that quite difficult to follow. Aren't I set?

Speaker A: You are.

Speaker C: Well, I'll have a go. Listen, I'm a technology firm but we can, you know, we do great things as well. I've got two quite cracking examples actually. One is around, um, use of AI technology for breast cancer screening. So we've got some AI tooling and processes that we are using with a Part of the nhs and the detection rates have gone through the roof. It's absolutely brilliant. It spots things that the human eye can't and so the quantity of screenings, uh, that is happening is increased, um, at least twofold. Detection rates have gone massively up and. Well, what's the outcome to that? Uh, more people are being detected early and getting to link live long and healthy lives as a result of AI technology. I think it's beautiful. The other example is quite neat is uh, wwf, as in the Worldwide Fund for Nature. We use some AI tooling to uh, automate environmental monitoring which helps predict the risk of epidemics. And some of the AI is used to analyze satellite uh, imagery with uh, algorithms to identify areas where bio diversity is um, negatively impacted. I think that's enormously powerful for our planet. Um, and that's what can do. That is definitely tech for good.

Speaker A: That is incredible. We're coming to the last couple of questions in the podcast, obviously on um, the Lens be, ah, a business in the community, we're all about responsible business and we've both demonstrated that in spades today. We describe it as about thinking about the three Ps, about people, planet and place. So Michael, could you share with our listeners some of the things that you're most proud of @ato's that link to those three Ps, please?

Speaker C: Sure, sure. So from a people perspective, we address digital inclusion by donating all end of life hardware and enabling employee device donations. So this helps children access education and families access essential public services such as healthcare. Also alongside that we invest in future talent. Like in June we're engaging 500 young people in Glasgow through STEM outreach to show that careers in technology are inclusive, exciting and achievable, uh, for all. So that's a people perspective planet. Ah. We extend the life of all of our hardware through reuse and donation, reducing electronic waste and supporting more responsible consumption of digital resources. So our devices provide a digital lifetime for many and again helps children access homework, families stay connected and accessing vital services to healthcare, for example. And then from a place perspective, Sarah, I think our initiatives are designed to strengthen local communities and regional economies. So by targeting those regions with the greatest need, such as skills and employability programs linked to our sovereign studios in Birmingham. Place based initiatives like our investment transform derelict building into a STEM hub near Sellafield. That's all about supporting people in parts of the country that may need more attention than others. So I think all of the three Ps, um, are interlinked and I think clever Firms understand that and try and hit all three of them at the same time.

Speaker A: You should be very proud of those indeed. Giselle, I know you're super proud of what you do.

Speaker B: We're super proud of what you do

Speaker A: and what you've shared with us today. But people, planet and place, what are you most proud of?

Speaker B: I'm most proud of how our team every day, is making easier for businesses, nonprofits, to wield their purchasing power for good. We want to make it as simple as possible for every business to get the job done and do good. And by creating, uh, an easy way to outsource small, you know, one off, fixed to retainer projects to talent that are ready and eager to get these opportunities. We're bolstering regional economies, we're creating new pipelines of AI enabled talent, and we're also making sure that, um, that those earnings are supporting the communities that they're in. Everything that we do is, is partnership based. So we partner with hyperlocal partners like NGOs, collectives, refugee led businesses, to make sure they're the ones that know where the talent is, kind of what the biggest needs are. Uh, as far as opportunity is and what our role is, is to be that market linkage. And so mission is very aligned with us. I would say the social impact is probably the core part of what we do. Less obviously on the environmental impact side. But even those who have been displaced by climate crises, we're trying to make sure that wherever someone is, whether they're in a refugee camp or in city, that they can access fair, dignified livelihoods through the digital economy.

Speaker A: Well, I hope you're fully supported in all of those efforts, but I'm sure there are challenges, too. I'd love at this point to ask you if you've got any questions for each other. Michael, would you like to ask Gisele anything?

Speaker C: What worries you the most and what excites you the most about AI Giselle?

Speaker B: Um, what worries me the most is that we will exclude the next generation, uh, of local and refugee talent. I just think of young people coming up into this world now and how the career ladder that served us for so long is no longer the case. Again, there's great opportunity with that, uh, if young people are embracing an entrepreneurial mindset. But if that shift, I just foresee that that shift will be challenging and making sure that we're not excluding major pockets of young people who want to, you know, they've got that fire, that passion, and that desire to do work that matters. And if we don't create that on ramp for them. In the age of AI, I am concerned about, uh, what that means for our societies. But on the flip side of that, I see the passion and the curiosity, the resilience of young people. And I know that if given the tools and the opportunities and the access that young people will rise to the occasion, no matter their background.

Speaker A: Excellent. Giselle, would you like to ask Michael anything?

Speaker B: Yes. Well, Michael, as a CEO of a major tech company, what are the ways that you are leveraging that position and using that power for good?

Speaker C: So, for me, the seat in CEO stands for culture. So, Chief Culture Officer, I think it has to come from the top around, doing what's right. Doing what's right from a responsible business perspective, providing our people with the tools and capability and confidence to come on the journey with AI and so making sure everyone has an opportunity, both for young people. I mean, the, uh, 30 apprentices that have recently joined us, they're magnificent to watch how they're developing, but also people that have been there for 40 years that haven't faced this kind of revolution before. And it's equally important that I provide them with the confidence and tooling as well. So I just want to make sure that everyone feels empowered. Empowered to drive through this transformation. But as I said before, doing it in a controlled, safe, and responsible way. I think that's my job.

Speaker A: Michael, if you could encourage our listeners to read one piece of research or one report that has inspired you to be more responsible, what would it be?

Speaker C: So, slightly biased on this one, Sarah, but ATOZ and, um, the British Chambers of Commerce collaborated together on a piece of research, and it was all around powering productivity and AI and the future of UK work. So it's a great piece of research. It's got some really interesting findings in it, and it certainly helped influence our strategy here in Atos. UK and I. So Atos and, um, British Chambers of Commerce, the future of work.

Speaker A: Okay, I have jotted that one down. Giselle, over to you. Same question.

Speaker B: So, one piece of research that I have loved. It's called Peace Through Entrepreneurship. It was written by Stephen Coltai. He led global entrepreneurship under the Obama administration. And it really looks at that intersection point of how do we support emerging economies and young people across the world, um, and use entrepreneurship as that pathway to opportunity and to peace. And in an AI age, I think so many of us are having to be more entrepreneurial, more proactive in not just looking at a traditional career ladder, but looking at how we can Leverage AI to create businesses, we can think about careers a bit differently. And I just love that book because for the work that we do, it marries those two worlds, the public sector and private sector, and the role that they each can play in creating, um, a more peaceful, more resilient societies.

Speaker A: I think it's brilliant to be more entrepreneurial. I think everyone should be okay. Final question. As responsible leaders yourselves, what are you personally committed to doing more of or less of in the coming year? Giselle?

Speaker B: I'm committed to, uh, listening more, speaking less, and really making sure that as we approach the adoption of new technologies, that we're making sure we are listening to our end users, uh, business clients, and also the teams that we work with to make sure we're building what's actually needed and not just what that's fast and exciting to implement. I want to keep trust as our most important currency. And I'm going to be doing a lot more listening as I have to learn and lead through this new wave of technology.

Speaker A: You just keep leading, doing what you're doing. You're brilliant. Michael, what are you going to be doing more of or less of in the coming year? To be that responsible leader.

Speaker C: Three things there are one, more and different social value responsible business initiatives, two, that piece around making sure the ethics and governance of being a responsible business is toe to toe with the pace of our technology AI adoption. And three, more examples of AI for good. Because those two examples I've given you, I think we've just, only just scratched the surface. There's loads more we can do, and, um, that's what's most exciting, I think, about AI.

Speaker A: On that optimistic note, we will leave our conversation today. My thanks to both our guest to Giselle Gonzalez and Michael Herron. I feel much better about AI after that conversation, and I hope you do, too. You've been listening to the Lens with me, Sarah Travers, and if your business would like support to understand why responsible AI matters and some advice, please visit the website bitc.org.uk and, um, search for BITC's responsible AI framework. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next time.