Leading a Team and What it Means to Truly be of Service with Geoffrey Roche

Speaker A: Good day one and all, and welcome to another episode of the Leadership Mind Podcast. I'm your host, Massimo Backus, and today I was joined by Jeffrey Roche for a really engaging, thoughtful, and heartfelt conversation. Jeffrey is one of those individuals, uh, one of those leaders that truly embodies servant leadership. To the extent that he looks at every engagement, every relationship, every conversation is an opportunity to be in service. Comes down to kindness, generosity, and really living in accordance with his values, which he talks about so much in this conversation. He is proud to be the son of a nurse and shares some really profound insights around what it means to be raised by somebody who is in a role of service, not just as a parent, but also within their community, and how that's really shaped his professional career. He also talks about the importance of empathy when it comes to leadership. Now, that's probably not necessarily new to many of you listening, however, he also talks about what it means to be, uh, empathetic and compassionate towards ourselves as we're going through uncertainties, the difficulties of running a business, overseeing a team, and protecting yourself from potentially being let go in a volatile work environment, which is something that seems to be ever present today. He also talks about the importance of succession planning and how that might be the one thing that we're focusing on least in leadership and is something that requires a greater amount of intention, focus and strategy to make sure that organizations are really playing the long game. And without further ado, welcome. Jeffrey. Tell me about this Statue of Liberty with the, uh, kind of rainbow swirl cloud behind it. Behind it.

Speaker B: Uh, so this is a Daniel Wall. Have you ever heard of Daniel Wall?

Speaker A: I have not. I suppose I should.

Speaker B: Obviously, this. This room, which is, like, where I work right now, but, uh, this is also the baby, our youngest, uh, room. But Daniel Wall is an artist that I actually, we've been on several cruises in Park West Gallery does a lot of the cruise art artwork. And I learned about Daniel Wall there, and I. So I collect quite a bit of art, mainly patriotic art, but, you know. So I have Peter Max, which I'm sure you know Peter Max, he's iconic in art. But Daniel Wall came from China to the United States and obviously fled it because of it being a communist country and didn't feel that he could ever achieve his dream of doing art there, obviously immigrated to the United States and now, ironically, not only has he had phenomenal success with his art, his daughter, who's like 13, is also a renowned artist, and she's about to surpass her dad, I think, actually, in like art sales already. It's just one of those pieces that, you know, I mean, he talked as, uh, when I first learned about him, you know, we see videos and stuff. I haven't met him in person, I hope to one day, but he talked about kind of similar, you know, how he came. My family fled Germany and came to United States, you know, for seeking, you know, liberty and justice and freedom. And so it's just a, uh, kind of connection from that vantage point.

Speaker A: Is that the connection for you to patriotic art or. Tell me a little bit about, you know, I mean.

Speaker B: So obviously my, my. My mom came to the United States when she was five, so 1963, and obviously came through Ellis island. And so the first thing she saw was the Statue of Liberty. So I was a young child. My, uh, my grandparents and, and my, you know, my parents, especially my mom would talk about that. And so there's always been a strong connection to that kind of that life, family story. And then I've always just been very involved, you know, not only politically, but much more from a service end. I've served, you know, in government still do I. I'm a school board member now, which is a very interesting discussion on leadership, especially during the pandemic, but have served, you know, since I was 18, was a township auditor, you know, youngest elected official in Pennsylvania at that time. So I've always had that call to just serve. And uh, a lot of that comes out of what my family has, you know, shared with me over what occurred in Germany. So it's just kind of that. That element of impact.

Speaker A: Yeah, Well, I like to start all these conversations with talking about people's origin story. You know, I think it's always fascinating to see people when they are mature and evolved and they've, you know, they're on the stage, they have the credibility and the expertise, but we all kind of came from the same place of, of being kids and being lost and trying to find our way. Were both your parents immigrants, just. Or just your mom?

Speaker B: Just my mom. My dad's. My dad obviously had family that did immigrate, but many years before from. From the Czech Republic and, and Germany. But. But no, my mom was. My. My mom is what makes me a first generation.

Speaker A: And what impact did that have on you when you think about where your kind of the origins and on that set you on the path that you've been on throughout your career.

Speaker B: Significant. I mean, especially from the vantage point that, you know, look, my, my, My grandmother, my maternal grandmother, my Oma. She specifically grew up In Nazi Germany at a time when she never really had a home. And so you know, she was a child of 13 siblings, 13 total. So her and 12 others, many of which were forced to be in the military. No choice, forced if they were of age to go in. Lost several siblings in the war, uh, forced, no, you know, again, didn't choose. And her parents both died when she was young during that time. And so she was raised by her older sister who was only three or four years older than her. And when I say raised, she was literally raised her teenage years by her older sister. What we now know, and we heard stories, you know, when she was alive, my mom is actually still reading her. Her, My Omas uncle wrote a book about their upbringing because at some point my, my Oma and uh, my great aunt reached this uncle and so he has wrote a book that's in German and my mom is fluent, so she's reading this book and we've continued to learn about uh, their story and how they would have to flee home from home to, to avoid being actually assaulted. It's actually assaulted by the Russian soldiers because they were younger girls. And so that story, you know, was, was very much uh, known to us. But, but the, the aspect that that always has stood out for me has been the fact that despite that my Oma uh, raised us as young kids to, to never hold a grudge against anybody, to, to not discriminate, to always see the value that every person can bring to every situation and to never judge anything. You know, don't. As uh, she would always say, don't judge a book by its cover. And I can remember as a young child as we would hear this, I would ask a lot of questions and she would say to me, love first. She said those, you know, those soldiers were doing what they were told to do. They probably didn't want to do what they were doing generally. She said I'm not going to ever hold that against them. The irony is now my grandfather was the opposite. He had very different feelings. And so, you know, the upbringing from that vantage point was very, very profound.

Speaker A: So there were some pretty strong values instilled in you at a young age around being non judgmental, leading with love, being of service, doing good in the world. How did that inform your journey? When you think about your time in school, like what decisions were you making around who you wanted to become and at what point did you realize that leadership in particular was something that you were called to do and be a part of?

Speaker B: So you know, the irony there is you know, without question, my Omar was a huge influence. You know, the impact that she made as I went through school, you know, it was actually at a very young age. I can even remember definitely in middle school, is when I realized, particularly as my Oma would say, you've got a gift. Use it. And I didn't really always understand what she was speaking to, but. But then I started to really, in middle school, learn that, you know, I was the type of person who would want to bring people together and the type of person who would want to be a part of efforts, but always make sure our collective voices being heard. And a lot of that was in clubs, uh, in different school activities. But most notably, when I was in middle school, our school was dealing with some cultural diversity challenges. You know, I grew up in the Poconos, and the Poconos was a type of place that generally had a lot of people in Pennsylvania who had been there their whole life. But we were going through true transformation because a lot of people were moving from New York and New Jersey to come to a place that would be relatively cheaper to live but still be able to commute into the city. Uh, long commute, but still commute into the city over an hour and a half, but they would do it by bus. Well, that brought a lot more diversity, which to me was. Was beautiful, but to some people was. Was, you know, in their eyes, not so beautiful. And so our school was dealing with that. And my. One of my best friends growing up was Jamaican black, uh, and his family. I spent a lot of time with them, and they had taught me that, you know, you. You speak up when you see racism. And so in our school, I quickly started to become another voice as I saw things. In fact, I can remember we went to the school board. I was a middle school student with a group of other students going to the school board because members of the district weren't seeing it as serious as it really was. And we actually worked with, honestly was probably one of the most transformational experiences of my life. But we had an individual that was in our community who had actually been very involved in the civil rights movement do actually then lived in our community. He came and he coached us as young students. How do you advocate on these issues? He ended up taking us to the school board meeting. He was, you know, an, uh, incredible voice for us, but also somebody who trained us in the way that they were trained. And so it was very, very impactful. From that vantage point, what was the

Speaker A: outcome of that, of bringing that conversation to the school? Board.

Speaker B: This was a group effort. Uh, with incredible support from parents, we ended up. Our district, agreed to create a diversity committee that was representative of students, families, district members. And the great aspect of that is that same effort is still in place today. In fact, I was honored two years ago, inducted into the hall of Fame of our district for my work in the community, when I worked in the community, as well as work I did in and around the community, when I worked in the healthcare system. One of the things I asked when I was there was that still active. Not only was it active, every year they bring together the entire community. They talk about. They celebrate the diversity. They have food representing all the diversity. There's classes, there's efforts. And so it was definitely, definitely something that not only am I proud of, uh, really encouraged that it didn't stop after. After us, because that's oftentimes what we see.

Speaker A: Sometimes, yeah, the momentum gets lost. It's an inspiring story, Jeffrey, that you. To think that in middle school you can create change that has a lasting impact. You know, at that time, you probably weren't thinking about, when I'm. When I'm an older gentleman, I will, you know, be recognized for this. It was from the heart. It was with purpose. It was to support your friend, anyone else who was coming into the community. But just to recognize that we don't, um, we don't have to wait to have a positive impact. We can do it at a young age. I love that.

Speaker B: I'll say the other aspect to that is really that aspect of community is what I learned in a lot of that, too, was, you know, again, this was. This was, you know, late 90s, early 2000s. Very different world then in some ways than it is now, but. But in some ways, we're. We're coming back to some of those things again. You know, for me, what I learned was, how do you build community? What I learned in that process and what I'm really encouraged today is the youth. We collectively. Now I'm an older member. Uh, I'm no longer youthful much. But when we do think back on those experiences, we can share those to help the youth understand they can have that lasting impact. And when I speak with groups that are particularly younger, I tell them all the time, you own your voice. Don't let anybody tell you what you think or how you think. Because I'm a millennial, and we're always told we're lazy. Uh, we're told we can't hold jobs. You know, we're told all these things, but the Reality of it is, is we're changing the world and we will change it for the better. And the future generations are going to even change it better.

Speaker A: There's a call to action for them. And I love that message. And you're right, it happens in community. That's where that is where change occurs. I wanted to ask you about the impact of being raised by a nurse. Your mom was a nurse and you work in healthcare now. What role did that play for you growing up?

Speaker B: You know, my mom, when she became a nurse, I was five years old. And right around that same time, the irony is that my parents were getting divorced right at that same time. You know, my brother and I were. You just envisioned that. I mean, you know, my mom had just became a nurse, uh, my parents were getting a divorce. Very transformational time that I don't Forget as a 5 year old. But what I can tell you is not only did my mom give 110% to us as her boys, she was doing the same thing in that hospital setting. Why I know that is that throughout my elementary, middle school and high school years, people in the community would come up to me in my school district and say, oh my gosh, my mom had your mom. And I'm thinking that's a whole lot of knowledge that you know. And your mom delivered m this sibling. And in fact one of my friends in high school, my mom delivered seven of their nine children, ironically within her time of, of being a nurse. When I would hear these stories, it was just absolutely profound. And so the influence was, was very, very strong. And there's a lot of, obviously, as you can imagine, that my mom learned from my uma, her mom, and my mom instilled that in us as well. Which the service aspect of, uh, my mom will always say to me when I talk about this, oh please. But the true reality of it is, is she taught authentic service as a nurse. She believed foundationally that, yes, my job is to help make someone get better or in this case, help deliver a baby and take care of mom and baby. She puts such passion, uh, into that work. And the amazing aspect about it is when I started my career in healthcare, I worked at the same hospital she had served at. Now she was not there when I worked there, but it's a hospital that I spent a lot of my days early on in life in. In fact, uh, you know, used to go to bring your child to work day with my mom and, and had fond memories of even spilling soda and juice on charts, uh, for example, and, and, and that was brought up when I got the job. They said, oh, I remember you when you did that. But what was really cool is my mom helped develop the plans for an icu, uh, at the hospital. And the irony is that when I served there, I was on the team that developed, uh, the advanced part of the nicu. It went from a level three to a level two. And so what was cool is that we had this kind of shared element, even though we weren't there at the same time. So it was very, very profound. And certainly her influence in a significant way is what made me realize that leadership in health care would be a special place to serve.

Speaker A: How does it guide you today, this focus on service and letting your behavior and your actions model the way for others?

Speaker B: It guides me in every possible way. You know, when I've been, you know, a people, people leader, one of the things every teams that I've had the privilege to serve with have always said is you've never come across as a boss. You've always come across as a coach and as a mentor. And, you know, for me, you know, that upbringing, that experience with myoma, um, my. And certainly my mom, and even to some level, even my father. My father was a laborer. So very, very different. You different in many ways. But. But the work ethic part is, in a significant way, is what I certainly learned from him and my mom. You know, I mean, both, but. But just in different ways. But to your point, I think what. What I learned in a significant way, particularly that. That relates to how I've led, is that connection at the heart that if you, as a leader can connect with another person in a heartfelt manner, you can truly be on a, um, be on a level with them collectively, and they can be on the same level with you that when you ask them to do something, they don't view it as asking. They want to do it with you. And you're achieving everything together. And it really puts that idea forward that we win and we lose together. Everything that we do is we. It's never about me. It's never about them. It's truly about us. And you know, for me, that's what I really was, was in many ways that idea of. Even when I look back in middle school, that idea of community. To me, leadership is community. Never can be viewed as, uh, us versus them. It's always got to be viewed as us together.

Speaker A: Us together around a shared purpose. Right?

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: When you think about. And this is, uh, an intentionally kind of provoking question, Jeffrey, so bear with Me, I'm all on board with the heart first leadership and being able to connect authentically and getting rallied around the same purpose, there's no question. And yet each of us as individuals have egos. We have our own desires and, and needs and wants and hopes for you. Where, if there has been a time where you have found this, this principle of the value that you got from your mom around being in service and building community towards that, that, that shared purpose, has that been tested for you at any point in your career? And if so, how did you tackle that? What did you learn about yourself and how did you address it?

Speaker B: It's definitely been tested. And particularly I think it's, it's, it's without question been tested, particularly in coming from the not, not for profit world into the for profit world. What I've learned in those experiences is ultimately both sectors all have mission, vision and values. But I think generally people that are in the not for profit world, yes, they know they gotta make revenue, but they also know that the service aspect is significantly important to their DNA. Not to say there's people in the for profit that don't. In uh, fact, I know there are and I've served with some, but then there's others who are so profit driven that they really lose the connection of what they're there to do. I believe every business in some way is there to serve. And when I've been tested, it's when I've served with leaders who feel as if they've got a drive, drive, drive entirely on that profit and they've, they've totally lost the connections that there's still people involved here. And for me, it's been a big, a big test. In fact, it's led to departures from organizations that I've been in because I am not one that is willing to compromise that principle. To me, whether you're a for profit or you're a not for profit, you are still there to serve. There's a consumer on the end and your team are also consumers. They're still customers. I regularly say in healthcare, we have not done a good job of taking care of our other patients who are literally in our four walls. They are also our patients. And I say leaders who haven't done that have failed. When I've been in those environments, I have realized I'm not willing to compromise that. And so whether I leave or they ask me to leave, that's okay with me because ultimately I'm not going to compromise that important value. And what I'll tell You is what I've learned in that is the good people, they follow you because they realize too, that they can't compromise that and they understand. And I've had this happen, you know, several times and have so been so privileged to work with other members of the team that, you know, went along with that or. And sometimes to give them credit, they even, um, went before I did. Which, you know, I'll be the first to say there's a lot of learning that happens in those situations.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I, I think that transitioning in and out of organizations is a very timely topic. And how one does it with dignity and the relationship, the, the unspoken contract of assumptions that happens with an individual in an organization when, when they come on.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: For you, what do you think are some of the biggest opportunities that you see that are being done well and those where you see that are misses when it comes to how the employee is thinking about that transition and what an organization owes to them, and when is the time to say our values are not aligned. And that's okay, as you said. And that means I need to, to move along or if it's the responsibility of the organization to treat these employees with dignity when they need to make some calls, tough calls.

Speaker B: So, uh, I'll be the first to say that when we talk about. And to your point, this is a really tough topic. Right. I mean, there's so much of this that we're seeing occurring, uh, again, in a pretty significant way. And as somebody that's faced it, uh, you know, at least twice in my career, um, there are right ways and there are wrong ways, uh, to go about it. And, um, I will tell you that, um, my first experience with it was more human centered. My second experience with it was not so human centered. And what I've learned in those situations is, is, um, those leaders who ultimately are on the other end of it have to remember that there are people on the other side, there are families on the other side. And I will add, their actions will impact their bottom line in the future. And studies after studies have clearly demonstrated that. And so what I regularly say is that if you are in a not for profit and you have a board, if you're a board member, you better pay attention to how your organization does that. Because fiduciary responsibility means people. Hands down, finance is people. How we treat our people, whether they're in our workforce today and whether they're not in our workforce tomorrow is still very much fiduciary. And if they're shareholders, the same thing applies because guess what? You've got to protect your brand. You've got to protect your story. I think we're learning. And, you know, and I had. I was having this conversation with a, uh, former CEO of a very large company recently, and he was sharing with me how, you know, in all the organizations he served as a CEO, one of the things he focused a lot of his time on was, was this people aspect. Because at some point you're going to have to do some type of restructuring. It's just the world that you're in some type, hopefully not large. Hopefully it's done with some thoughtfulness. But what he shared with me was that what he always coached every member of his team to do, whether there was the HR team or the hiring manager, was that they had to first remember that it could be them. So every time they did it, they needed to remember that they could also be on the other side. And so when he coached them on that, he would say to them, think about if you were on that side, how would you like it to be? And he said, that's how they develop the process. Because, uh, which I thought was very powerful because I don't think people generally think about that. Oftentimes they think they're on the other side. But guess what? Put those shoes on and imagine what it's like. And so I think you've got to have compassion, you've got to have empathy. Um, and you have to be a good listener, particularly because in those situations, they are tough. And those of us that have faced it know that. But if you're dealing with. If you're dealing with people who recognize how tough it is, recognize that you're dealing with a lot at that moment and still have a desire to help you. Because we should all be thinking about that all the time. Particularly if it's a restructuring and it's not a disciplinary issue, then you can make a profound impact on that person.

Speaker A: Uh, I see it as a huge opportunity for organizations, and these changes are inevitable. That's part of that unspoken, um, contract. It's inevitable. These things happen, but how it's handled is the opportunity. So that's a very insightful message for the organization. Jeffrey, what would you say to the employees that are on the receiving end of restructurings that are happening right now, uh, or they're fearful that it may happen to them because of what they've seen over the last few months?

Speaker B: You know, what I would say to employees is you want to be doing as much as you can to establish your personal brand. And what I learned early in my career, particularly after, you know, almost 10 years of faithful service and then went through the restructuring, was that my. At that time, my brand was too much their brand. And after that experience, I learned, no, no, I own my brand. My brand is who I am and who I serve, not the organization that I have the privilege to serve. Yes, every day I'm working, I'm committing, uh, myself to their mission, vision and values. But at the same time, I'm also committing myself to my mission, vision and values. And so when I've taught in MBA classes and other, one of the things I always talk about is, as a leader, we all have to have a personal brand. And so I think anyone that's going through this today needs to think about what that is and how they reflect it on their LinkedIn, uh, how they reflected in the networking that they do. Because we all have to, uh, both live and work as if it can happen tomorrow. And I know that's uncomfortable when we hear it, but it can. It has to me. It has to most of us.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: What I've learned when I've gone through it is the strongest position you can be in is when it happens. People are calling you and saying, hey, I need you here. Call, come and serve here. And we all can be in that situation if we establish that brand, establish that strong connection, establish that powerful, uh, networking aspect. And so that's the message I would share. The other thing that I'll share and be a bit vulnerable is don't be like I was the first time, uh, because I was not, uh, handling it right. And when I look back, I've talked to some of the executives at the organization, and I said to them, boy, I've grown up a lot. And they said, yeah, yeah, you did.

Speaker A: How did you handle it?

Speaker B: I was raw. And, you know, I can tell you, you know, I did not, you know. Yes. Did I have a severance? Absolutely. But I didn't handle it right. For example, I refused for months to talk to anybody at the organization because I took it as they're all, you know, almost like, no interest in talking to any of them. There were some that I did like on my team, for example, because they were, you know, but. But leadership. I was not in touch with them. Now now, you know, a few years after that, we reconnected.

Speaker A: But, Jeffrey, you're saying that when you were given the package to leave, you were so hurt or upset by it that you said, I can't have a conversation with. With my peers or with the senior leadership.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Associated them as individuals with the broader decision that impacted you.

Speaker B: Yep. Which was not a good one, because if you think about it, some of them had nothing to do with it. You know, fortunately for me, they all had grace, and they understood that, you know, I was going through something tough. And. And here's the reality. I took it very personal, which a lot of us do. And at the time, my wife was pregnant with our second son. So, you know, I was living that life as a father with one. Uh, and then here, you know, I had to. To accept the fact that I, uh, thought I was, you know, on a phenomenal career trajectory. Didn't. And then, you know, went through a merger. Obviously on the other end was, was this. But when I look back, that was not a good professional move because, again, it could have had significant ramifications. And so I share that with people because we all have a choice. And what I learned in that process is I had a lot of grace. Others, uh, may not. And so think about how you act, think about how you react. And what I learned when I look back on it, as compared to the second time I went through it, was have a personal board of advisors, have a group of people that don't always agree with you. That was the other piece to this. But people who are going to challenge you that immediately I could go to. And here's the difference. In that first experience, they were all in that organization. And so I felt totally like they just turned their backs on me and held me out to dry. But. But what I learned is, you know, within weeks, I had this beautiful recommendation letter from one of my senior vice presidents from there, still have it today. And that was after I acted not so nice. And to his credit, he realized that I was acting in the moment. We all have a lot to learn in those situations. And so what I encourage people to do is have that personal board of advisors. Because today when I, uh, when I've gone through it again, those were some of the first people I called. And you know what they told me? They said, hold your head up high, because the next opportunity is going to be greater than that one was. And it was.

Speaker A: Well, I think you bring up, um, an important point here, which is when we are inside of organizations, all of our social capital goes to people inside the organization. And that's a trap that we can fall into. And we always need to create space to continue to build our network outside of the organization, to cultivate our network, but also to make sure there are people that serve on that personal board of advisors that are not just in the organization and that might not agree with all the decision that we want to make so that we have a broader point of view and perspective on, on what we can do next and what's possible for us when we're feeling down. Right. So that we are reminded the next thing can be better.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: There's something else that you've said a number of times in this conversation, Jeffrey, that I, that stands out to me, that I, I kind of keep highlighting it each time you say it. And that's an organization that I served with or served at. When I hear that it is different than I worked at this organization or uh, this is my job. I hold this role within this organization. There is a part of that that sounds like personal accountability, that sounds like a personal ownership of um, I'm choosing to serve here and they are worthy of that service because I believe in more accomplishing. But another organization could also be worthy of the service.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: What I have to offer and it doesn't give all of the control over the organization, which again I think is a trap that many people fall into. Oh, this company is great. I'll be here for protected forever. As much as we'd like that to be true, it's not.

Speaker B: No, I agree. And, and you know, I think healthcare, particularly as an industry where this has happened so much because for so long you didn't have to think about these things. There wasn't the same level of the competitiveness, there wasn't the same level of, of the worst budgets ever. That's where we are today in health care. And so many people like the tech industry are going through some of the most difficult times of their life. And um, you know, I can, I just know when I've served with people in the past, depending on where they are in their career, sometimes it's harder to get that next opportunity. And you know, to, to your exact point. For me, what I've learned is when I look back, uh, you know, for example, how I reacted after my first experience several years later, not, not, I shouldn't say several, maybe even a year after, I never went back to the community. Now mind you, I had family in that community. I, I was so hurt that I couldn't go back. But I remember when I first went back, one of my colleagues said to me, you have to remember your legacy. Just drive around, see the projects that you were part of. You did, they didn't own you. You did this for the community. And you know, it was one of those moments where this good friend and colleague who I'm privileged to still work with today in another capacity, literally said to me, to your earlier point, give up your proud and your pride. Because she. That's what she was telling me. She's like, I know you were very prideful because you did a lot of really good work here, but that work didn't end when your tenure ended. That work still has. Is still happening, and the influence that you and the whole team did together is still going to be part of that legacy. And, you know, it was one of those moments. And she still worked in that organization for many, many years after that. Just recently left, but many years, she would say to me, oh, my gosh. She would take pictures and say, look what. Look at. Look, your influence is still here. And it was one of those things where it's like, wow, why am I being so full of myself to realize that at the end of the day, sometimes a restructuring is just a restructuring. Uh, this wasn't get rid of Jeffrey. This was, unfortunately, we have to make a tough decision. And, uh, what I learned, when I look back on that, to your point, was at the end of the day, I still served. What I did was impactful, uh, as a part of the team. And, you know, to this very day, that service lives on. Five years later, as we speak, you know, actually six, almost six years later now, I still get calls from people in the community. Hey, tell me about when you did this. Tell me about this. And, yeah, I always take them because that is where I grew up. That's where I served. That's where I first started my career. Um, and it's where I was mentored by the best leader of my entire career for many years. And so for me, it's kind of like, that's my home.

Speaker A: Tell me about that person who is the best, the best leader that you've had the. The privilege to work with.

Speaker B: That was my, my CEO. So when I started in, uh, 2008, she was our CEO for. For about five. About five and a half years of my. Almost ten years there. She was a nurse, was the. One of the first female CEOs there. I always called her the Mother Teresa, uh, of healthcare. She was relatively short. That's not why I called her Mother Teresa, but I would always tell her I would remind her of that because I was taller. We just had a great relationship. But she would always say to me, don't you worry. I can, I can take care of height very easily with, with, uh, with my voice. And My. My ability to navigate as a nurse. But she, um. What was special about Kathy was Kathy taught me again right out of college. So, you know, we, you know, where we come out of college, we've got a lot of drive. Sometimes we have a little bit too much of, uh, you know, a lot of different things. But Kathy was the one who really, from a career perspective, instilled in me that if service is your focus, you can serve here, you can be impactful, but don't let anybody stop you. Don't let them stop that motivation. And I can remember I went to her early on and said, hey, I want to develop the government relations program here. And she said, go ahead. Here's the keys. Do it. Prove to me that you can do it. Prove to this organization the value. And when you've done that, we will all recognize and we'll celebrate together. And I did it. And, you know, she would be the type to just say, hey, go ahead. Here's the keys. Try it. I want to see what you got. Uh, and, you know, she was a very seasoned leader, 40 plus years. And I was so fortunate to have that time with her at the end of her career, because she really poured her heart and soul into. Not into the organization only, but into me, mentored me, coached me. It was almost as if I had my own leadership academy, to be honest with you, because she literally would spend hours. We would go to Washington, D.C. together. It was an entire three, four hours of her coaching me. We would have tough conversations, as she would call them, because there were times where I needed to be checked. And she would always say to me, you're not acting like the Jeffrey that I know. So the door is there. When you're ready to come in as Jeffrey, I'm here. But until that's happening, just politely take a chance out there and you come back. And it was powerful, because what I learned was she was telling me, mindset is key. Bring that mindset in. When that mindset is there, you're here in the way that I need you to be here. If it's not, you, come back when you're ready. And she was just so special. And what I saw her do as a CEO was never let the title ever go to her head. This was a leader who would literally walk the woods with me to serve the homeless. We brought food, medicine, you name it, she would walk the woods as a CEO. What I learned from her was, you're there truly humbly to serve, regardless of the title that you hold.

Speaker A: What a gift, Jeffrey. You Know, to be in the presence of someone and for someone to. To give of themselves so much to you and for you to see them give to others. When she'd ask you to step out of the room because you weren't showing up as the Jeffrey she knew what was going on for you at those times. What did you learn about yourself?

Speaker B: Well, there's definitely a lot of frustration. Like, are you serious?

Speaker A: Uh, yeah.

Speaker B: You know, the. The confident part of me was like, are you kidding me? Um, but, you know, it's funny, I can remember, um, you know, remember, you know, in those settings, the executive assistant's right there, so she hear, um, and so oftentimes I'd go out and she'd look at me and she'd go, just take a walk. Just take a walk, because you want to come back in with a different mindset. But what I learned, too, about. About that was. Was, um, and it's a life lesson now, is that especially in this remote world, uh, you know, I'm a very visible facial expression person. And she would call me on that. Um, in fact, we would be in group meetings. You know, she would not do it disrespectfully, even though she could. She's a CEO. She would do it respectfully. I would either get a text message, or she would look over at me and say, and no one else would notice it. She just had her way of doing it. And what I learned was, you know, look, uh, we all are going to deal with frustrations. We're all going to have challenging days, but we have to find a way to channel that. And so, you know, what I learned over time was, Was actually became my strategy, was if I was in those moments, I would literally just take notes, and I would just, you know, I would go along with it. And I got so proficient at that that, you know, she would say to me, that mindset's really changed, right? And I said, you m. Know, kind of, you know, but the reality of it is, is that I just learned to just channel it in some way. What's interesting about it was, and I later knew why she was coaching me on this, was she was always preparing me to take on new leadership challenges. When I started to really realize that, at one point I asked her, I said, did you fear that if I didn't do certain things that I wouldn't get it? And she said, look, I may be your boss, I may be the CEO, but you still have to earn the support of all those around you, uh, among the leadership team. Because even if I put you in these positions. If they don't see you for who they are, they're going to doubt you and challenge you all the time. And you do not want me to have to always be the one to tell them to back down and back off. That's not what I want you to be in. And so she was just preparing me for those moments. And to her credit, um, you know, when she, uh, retired, uh, she assigned another senior vice president to continue to work with me. Uh, and that senior vice president and I worked together all the rest of those years. And he was always coaching me on those things too, continuing. And, you know, like her, had a very diplomatic way, sometimes a little less diplomatic than she was, but. But it worked. And that was very, very profound.

Speaker A: Is Kathy still alive? Is she still around? Shout out to Kathy. We need more leaders like that in the world that are being intentional about the development and succession of, of great leaders. You know, I, I think that's one of the biggest misses right now in organizations is not thinking about true succession and thinking long term for people, um, and what they're going to need to be to be ready when that opportunity presents itself.

Speaker B: Kathy had been retired, and I was being honored by my College for an Emerging Leader Award. I asked Kathy to come. The story was I actually wanted her to take the award because I was, you know, telling her that, you know, she really is what created, uh, all the aspects of me. And, um. But she said to me that evening, she said the greatest gift of her career when she became a CEO, she said, was, was to mentor and coach the next generation. She said, I've reached this because of all those that helped me get here. And she would regularly say, my peers need to learn that because that opportunity is truly what a leader is there. And I just, I can never thank her enough because the influence that she had was, um. I knew it then, but I especially know it now because I, in my mind, when, even when I'm dealing with something tough, I'll say, what would Kathy do? Uh, why would Kathy, you know, encourage me, uh, to do this? And mission was always key for her.

Speaker A: You know, in this conversation, Jeffrey, there's been a clear theme of legacy. And I don't mean legacy like my name on a building, look at what I've accomplished. But to leave wherever you spend your time better than it was when you found it. And you did that in middle school. You've done that throughout your career, even in places when you left unceremoniously. But to be able to recognize that you left a positive impact. Kathy's done that with you. It's shaped your leadership and the great work that you're doing in the world. And I think it's important for those listening to think about what opportunities are for them to leave things better than they were. Not for praise or accolades, but just because that's what it means to be in service. That's what it's all about. I want to ask you, uh, you know, I was just saying succession planning is where I think there's a huge miss. There are many. When you think about the biggest crisis in leadership today, what is it from your point of view and what can we do about it?

Speaker B: Interestingly enough, to me, it's both the combination of succession planning, the lack thereof, uh, the lack of mentoring, but then also the lack of a true, authentic commitment to learning and development. In my humble opinion, if you looked at almost every single organization and every single industry, you would visibly see clearly that we just have not invested, uh, enough internally and externally with other experts to help all those that are there to serve. To me, that is truly not just a crisis of today, but will continue to be a crisis of tomorrow if we don't truly make those decisions. Because to me, learning and development, mentorship, succession planning, they're all connected. And as a leader, it is my responsibility to help all those that I have the privilege to serve with have the opportunities that I've had. And, you know, I will regularly say I served in an organization, my first job, my first career, that invested in me to get a master's degree and invested in me to get a ton of other educational opportunities. But it's not just that. They also invested in me to do leadership development programs, to get certified in various different things. We've got to have that level of commitment, particularly our younger generations demand it. You know what? It's not about. Thus, you know, they want this. They want this. That's not the answer. The answer is, do you want them to be on your team, or do you want them to be on another team? And so for me, it's really build that community. Build that community that. That has the most prosperous, most thriving workforce, and take care of them like we would if they were our family. That's what Kathy did for me and for our organization. And if there's more Cathy's in the world, we would have succession planning, we would have mentorship, we would have authenticity, and we would definitely have commitment to each and every one of those learners.

Speaker A: That's a mic drop moment right there, Jeffrey. And I could, uh, not agree more. It is not a conversation about retention. That is not the focus. It is a conversation about growth. People want to grow, and they should. As we wrap things up here, is there anything else that you want to share with the audience that you want to call out, A call to action, a request, a flag that you want to put in the ground and proclaim to be true from the mountaintops?

Speaker B: No. You know, I think the only thing I would say is, um, is really focus on that personal brand. Really be. Continue to be intentional, genuine and authentic about who you are. And I would really encourage people, if you serve in an organization where you feel you can't be who you are, give considerable reflection to that. Because if we can be who we are, we can also perform at the best and we can serve in the most effective ways. I know there's a lot of people in our world today that serve in organizations that they can't be who they truly are. And I would encourage them to talk to folks like us because we want to help them find that place. Because not only will their, uh, life be better, their life will transform when they're in that type of place.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think that it's so important to remember or to know that we're not stuck and that we don't need to stay in places that we don't fit and we don't belong, that the world is a big, big place and there is an organization that wants you unique, different, authentic, just the way that you are.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Thank you, Jeffrey. Absolute pleasure to chat with you today.

Speaker B: Thank you very much.

Speaker A: Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Leadership Mind. Remember, uh, the mind is the connection between our being and doing, our intent and our actions. Make sure to Visit our website, MassimoBackus.com where you can like and subscribe to the show on Spotify, Anchor FM and Apple, so you'll never miss an episode while you're at it. If you found the episode valuable, please rate the podcast on your preferred platform or share it with your community until next week. Remember to lead with compassion, curiosity and gratitude. Great leadership is a gift.