Mage-OS - A New Magento Non-Profit For a New Era

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Jetrails podcast, supporting you through the airwaves with information about website and e commerce technology and strategies from design and development to security, marketing, conversion, rate optimization and web hosting. We bring you insights from industry leaders and experts. Hosted, edited and published by me, Robert Rand, your friendly neighborhood tech ambassador. Hi, and welcome to an episode of the Jetrails podcast. I'm Robert, your host and today we're going to be talking about Mageos, a new nonprofit that is really helping to make sure that Magento stays alive and strong for many, many years to come. Um, with me, I've got 5 of the board members. Um, so we've got Laura, John, Maciek, Vinay and Alessandro. And we're going to be diving in with them to learn all about what started this and what it's doing, where it's going. So we're going to tackle this from a lot of different, uh, directions and angles. Um, let's start off with, um, Vinay, can you tell me a little bit about the history? Um, how did the organization get started? When did it get started? What does that timeline look like?

Speaker C: Thank you. Yeah, sure. Um, so about a year ago, you might remember, uh, at least in, in Western Europe we still were having a lot of COVID restrictions and there hadn't been any events for two years.

Speaker A: And

Speaker C: the general feeling of vibes in the Magento community were pretty negative about Magento. A lot of people were looking for alternatives, just precautions maybe, uh, even though most of them still made most of their money through Magento, that just didn't feel like a safe bet anymore. And I think a lot of that was because of lacking communication. No events in particular. Communication coming out of Adobe was, um, non existent. Same as many other companies, I guess. So I can't really say it's their fault. It just was a weird situation. So we as a, uh, community members, so to say, were forced to assume or guess their Adobe intentions. Right. Uh, what are they doing with Magento? And this led a group of friends and agencies and acquaintances to write this open letter. And that was, I just looked it up 14 months ago and uh, since then a lot has happened. So in there we were like, hey, we're going to fork. It's gonna happen.

Speaker D: Right?

Speaker C: Because Magento is dying and we don't want it to die. Um, so that's gathered a lot of traction. We got 1,600 signatures in a week or two and we made a big splash. And that I guess was part of the intention just to get Adobe's attention To hey, something's wrong, we're hurting, do something. And um, out of that many initiatives, uh, came. So the Magento association started an open source task force that's been going on for a year roughly now. And uh, yeah, also on many different levels, different conversations started happening again, which I think is great because a lot has m been cleared up since then. So right now we're in a very different situation than we used to be back then. There's been a lot more communication from Adobe, meaning they have said again and again that they're really committed to open source and have no intention whatsoever to deprecate it or get rid of it. It's still the fundamental system they're using for Adobe Commerce. Um, but still Adobe is trying to reach their key performance, whatever targets. And there are some things that basically are contrary to the interests of many of the businesses that were built up around Magenta Open Source. So because of this process just took a long time and didn't really lead to the immediate result that we're looking after. And also just to be safe and to be in a better position for, let's call them negotiations. Right. Uh, we started building this initiative Major os. Originally we were called Mosca Magento, uh, Open Source Community Alliance. Right? Yeah. But, um, uh, the acronym was taken. We couldn't find any domains or anything interesting so we just settled on Major S. Even if it's not sexy. I actually really like the name Major OS because uh, the OS is an acronym for two things. Open Source, which matches because Madras is based on Open Source Magento Open Source. And at the same time it's also a common acronym for operating system. And that leads into our idea, what we want Madras to become over time. So right now I guess we have actually uh, gathered a lot of traction and we are very committed and active in building this alternative Magento Open Source distribution. Even though Adobe itself, they haven't shown any real, uh, intention of deprecating, um, Magento. It's more about, I guess, the branding and the marketing in a way and just to be safe. Right?

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's such a detailed history and there's so many players involved because when we think Adobe, they're different business units with different goals and different needs, uh, in terms of their growth and success metrics. And so when we come into a Magento association town hall, we're told that the core code is sacrosanct, um, that it's still the same core being used for Adobe Commerce and for Magento Open Source, and that there is no immediate change there. Um, and that, ah, you know, and like you say that um, that they're going to continue to support Magento Open source for years to come and um, that, that it's important to them, um, and they do continue to do new work around that. But um, we see things happening with Adobe Commerce like um, you know, microservices coming in more and more, um, that make some of that core less central to operating an Adobe Commerce website. And so as the core becomes less central, that brings new questions. Um, so I'm with you all the way that you know, just because the goals and aspirations today are, are something in particular doesn't mean that these things don't evolve over time. So it's, it's great to have for the community a backup plan to have something else, uh, that can really keep businesses where they need to be to uh, protect small, medium, other businesses that are reliant on the software. Um, including some large businesses out there, some enterprises. There's a lot of debate out there about who uses the software and how and why. And I always think it's particularly interesting in terms of an economy of its own, just how big the Magento open source ecosystem is, just how many people are reliant on it. Um, but looking back at Mageos, um, Alessandro, can you tell me a little bit about how Mageos formed as its own nonprofit and some of the thought behind that. There are a lot of things that just happen more, uh, I don't know, m. In a more basic fashion. But here there have been routes that have been created in order to make this um, a particular kind of organization in a particular structure.

Speaker D: Yes, Robert, thanks for your question. Well, we have uh, ah, an ambitious plan, a very big plan. We want to announce the platform and ensure the long term success of this piece of software. So from a technical point of view and uh, we realized that we needed the structure to coordinate people to collect funds, manage funds and pay services and uh, eventually pay people to contribute and enhance the platform. So we wanted to commit to something like this. Uh, also, uh, from a legal point of view, uh, we wanted to do things that could be legally good. Legally. Okay. Um, and that's the reason why we founded the organization in Poland in this case. Um, thanks for the question. I think that, yeah, there is another question that's why another association. But I think that Maciek can answer to this question better than me.

Speaker B: All right, well we'll put Maciek on the spot for that. So why don't we talk a little bit Maciek about. You know, there is a Magento association that is a nonprofit. It's up, it's running, it has a board. Um, it's, it's been around for a few years now and been evolving. Why was there a need for an entirely separate and new and unique nonprofit like Mageos? Um, and what's, what are some of the core differences between the two?

Speaker E: Well, I knew I'm going to get the hard one. So um. Well, from my perspective, um, Magento, uh, is all about. It's not the branding itself, it's not even the code, uh, that we use. It's of course the crucial part is that we have a code and it's open source. But um, it's about the history and um, the whole ecosystem that exists. And uh, this ecosystem involves and includes a lot of people, a lot of companies, organizations with many different interests. Um, meaning like clients rely on Magento. They relied on the whole ecosystem. Not only the, the code, not only uh, the branding and even the company behind it. But um, they relied on Magento, um, with having in mind that they can easily change one agency to another, that if they will grow rapidly, they can easily extend the resources and develop because there's a lot of people around. And um, this was the biggest strength of the Magento for me. I mean of, of the whole ecosystem. And um, and it's, it's, it's the ecosystem, it's the openness, it's the uh, it's, it's the community that uh, it's so the, the reason that people may get easily on board and will not be removed from the community by, I don't know, any interest, any um, higher interest of the company. Because uh. Well, making business means like going one direction with your company, but it's not always aligned with your clients, with uh, with your partners. You can't, you can sometimes shift and uh, there are frictions. Uh, and um, from my perspective, I would say like we needed an entity for many reasons. Like Alessandro already pointed that it was uh, like quite small operational stuff, but it was also like the long term strategy that if something happens to Magento, like we assumed what will happen if there's not going to be a magento.com site anymore? It was a year ago, right. So um, the site was there, uh, and it happened. So uh, what would happen if there was no repository with Magento code, um, managed by anyone? This would lead to a mess in the community, in the ecosystem. Uh, everybody would. It would be like a lose, lose situation for all of Us I mean even for Adobe. So from my perspective like having um, a separate entity means keeping the values of um, of Magento, preserving what Magento was and will be. Because right now it's like community has no clear vision for, for long term support and uh, business is planning always with the long term support support in mind. Meaning they see the long term plan not only the one year or two years term but they see whether we're going to have support for the framework we use within five years. I believe uh, we can provide that we can preserve the community and the whole ecosystem also um, being enterprise ready uh like pci, DSS compliance because uh, Magento is the way it was before. The only lack we have or we see issues with is like the not not having a long term uh vision. And long term vision is important with PCI because uh, when you choose the uh framework you need to assure the support of the vendor or any organization behind it. And if there would be no legal entity like who would own the major os, like Vinay would own the uh, the website and uh, or I don't know who, who's, who's the owner of the, of the URL. Right.

Speaker B: It's a great point that yeah it's very hard to go to a PCI assessor and say I'm getting vendor supplied patches from somewhere in the ether. Right from, from a non existent entity that you know that just from a website that I found um, from some, some repo. Uh you know it brings to me is sort of the question is it fair to say that the Magento association does many things and while its main focus is on the community vis a vis education, learning events, you know so the meet Magento events, all sorts of things that the real focus of Mageos is making sure that there's a strong long term code base that's living and breathing so that nobody wakes up and finds out that uh, they're they're using Magento, they're reliant on Magento but in a couple of years time or whenever it could be that there's, that it's dead, that it's, it's not going to be moving um, forward in a sustainable way that makes sense is that the core, the core difference between the two. One is really focused on um, on having a repository and the other is focused on a lot of the other aspects of the community. Kind of an open ended there. I don't know if anybody in particular has a strong feeling on it but uh. Yeah it looks like Vinh's Got his hand up.

Speaker C: There are two aspects. So from my point of view, the purpose of the major OS association is to create an environment, uh, in which all the businesses and individuals whose professional life revolve around Magento can thrive. And one part of that is the code base. And even if Adobe never decides to deprecate it, certainly a possibility. Right. There's no harm in having an alternative and being able to maybe be a bit more nimble and agile with it and experiment with things that don't make sense for Adobe so directly. Uh, but the other part also is the community marketing information for merchants around Magento open source. Because that is something that just plays a very uh, you know, just doesn't have a, play a big role in Adobe's uh, marketing plan. They're not interested in the Magento brand. So we just need an alternative and uh, that's what majors will become.

Speaker B: That makes sense that there's so many of us that, that have lived and breathed Magento for so many years that you know, as veterans of the industry we understand it. But if a merchant was trying to learn about Magento today, Adobe is not making that nearly as easy that you know, and from a marketing perspective there's not a lot out there to sink your teeth into to learn about it and understand where it fits in the market and why it's powerful. So that, that's really interesting to think of it as equally um, about information. Um, John, um, I'm going to ask you to jump in and tell us a little bit about the goals of Mageos moving forward because we've so far talked a lot about how we've gotten to here and um, what some of the overarching goals are? But um, is there a little bit of a roadmap in play within Mageos in terms of the things that you'd like to see achieved in the coming months and beyond?

Speaker F: Uh, yeah, absolutely. Um, so yeah, as we've talked about already, the overall goals haven't really changed. We want to see Magento prosper, we want to see the product, uh, bring some innovation back um, to the code base. But equally as Minna and others have mentioned, it's about the community as well. And we want to make sure that um, we're including all the community and that also continues to prosper. But in terms of um, goals for moving forward are two kind of probably key aims at the moment. Obviously we're split into kind of two main tracks, uh, on a week to week basis at Major west and that is the kind of the Tech side that's generally headed up by Vinay and a number of others. So the goals on that side are to um, build out our distribution. So we've currently got the mirror and we've now got the nightly builds. We're ah now looking at uh, a full distribution. So this is our own um, completely separate distribution of Magento open source if you like where we can actually start to innovate, take pull requests and drive the product forward. So that's one of the key things. That's the tech side. Um and then on the content side which I've been uh, heavily involved in, we want to bring things back such as um, we mentioned already magento.com uh having disappeared. We want to bring back content around Magento about the product, about the platform, about the ecosystem, um, so that somewhere on the web for people to go and find out about Magento. So those are our kind of our two main things that we're looking at at the moment. And I think the other, the other area that we're really um, what's probably changed in the last um, month or two um from our side is um, kind of the way we're looking in the vision that we're, we're trying to do that with. Um, so we've talked about the Magenta Association. Just to add my, my 2 cents to that is um, the other differentiation between us and the Magento association is just the speed with which we can move and the decisions we can make. Um, we just feel we can get things done quicker and faster and that's kind of, I guess our frustrations led to Major west being created in the first place. Um but yeah, so a lot of time and energy over the last year via the task force that Fini has been involved with a few others and um, myself working on the content side we were looking at how we can resurrect the Magento brand and bring Magento.com back or have a Magento.org site. The shift in vision over the last month or two is we've now probably realized and accepted that we're not going to get those things back from Adobe. They're not interested in the Magento brand as already been mentioned. So we're making a push now on Mageos as a brand. Obviously we're still um, as are many people in the community unhappy with Magento is now Adobe Commerce, Advertising and marketing. We're kind of doubling down and focusing on major os. So I guess our long term goal is um, for when somebody thinks of Magento or Magento open source, we want them to think of major os. We're going to push and double down on major OS as a brand, both as a product and um, the community. That's kind of where we're heading.

Speaker B: Interesting. Um, let me ask a couple of quick follow ups there because you touched on a couple of things that got my neurons firing. First, I know that I've been hearing today about the goals of the structure of this nonprofit and the group of people that were brought together being um, able to move more quickly. Um, so I think, you know, in some ways it's because the, the charter of the organization, the goals of the organization are a little bit different. Um, and uh, you know, came together with very specific, um, goals to, to be achieved. But if from a funding structure, I know that the Magento association spends a good amount of their funding, um, on management as a nonprofit, that they've got a third party, Smith Buckland, um, that helps them to operate. Would any of you be able to compare at all, um, how this association, how this nonprofit is structured and how that might be different, um, in terms of sustainability? Because uh, I know Veena, you mentioned early on that um, uh, in terms of how this is all structured, um, that there are, I mean this is a pretty lean, agile organization. Um, how does all this look to all of you, uh, in terms of the ability to continue to move fast and stay agile? Um, what is really that structure in terms of how it might be different from other organizations?

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, we made the conscious choice initially to start out as a small group in order to be able to move fast. Uh, that's changing a bit. We're inviting people to join us and to contribute and that naturally takes a bit more coordination. But that's okay. We're in a different situation now. Things feel a lot safer and more stable and more secure. So, so I think that was a good choice to get started with. Uh, regarding funding, I would like to uh. I think maczhak is more suited to answer that question.

Speaker E: Yes, well, from, let's say, uh, from the business perspective, we are rather like startup. So uh, we started lean, uh, having exactly positioned and metered our activities to what we need and we seek to achieve. And from this perspective, we cannot even compare to Smith Buckling our expenses because ours are like way lower, uh, so probably like significantly meaning like 100 times lower, uh, than having an international entity because, um, we just use um,

Speaker D: the

Speaker E: efficient way of doing, um, doing our activities. And this, this, this is the different part. We have an association which is um, Totally open. I mean from the diversity perspective we right now we're a group of people from all around the world and uh, we it like that diversity was uh, was not driven by that, that, that we had to have a checkbox that, that we have diversity. No it's like, it's the, the way community works. Uh so actually probably there's like only like one person from each country or at most two. So meaning the board members and we designed the organization in a way that it will evolve, it will grow. People uh, can join and they have um, they know the rules and the rules are that nobody will take any branding from major S for example that uh, we, we take control of what we have and it's the control of community. So whoever want to be involved wants to be involved. Um, they may be involved in up to the level they want to be involved. Um so the, the, the the only like the, the we measure here the activity, the uh, the involvement of people not uh, how it was designed that it needs to be uh the corporate governance level uh with diversity with all the rules that companies need to assure. But it's way slower, it's way efficient that a small startup uh I would say and it's actually we are having the size of the community and the size uh of the organization, the effect of the organization like we were way bigger than we are right now because, because right now it's just uh, during the registration process startup association. Uh, but the community involved is already huge. So I believe that this bottom up way of doing things um, is quite good for all of us. I mean from all the um, community

Speaker B: members involved and thinking the name, I mean Mageos Open Source it feels really like an open source initiative. But in the sense that when I think about somebody taking on responsibility for a code repository or something and that living on for years and the best side of the open source world where things continue to uh, get done and people really take responsibility around it. That's what I've been hearing and seeing with Mageos. Um, it's really about that kind of governance where people are coming together and it's not necessarily about paying a lot of outside people to do a lot of outside things. It's really about the commitment of the community and the membership and building an ecosystem around that. Uh, and we've all, I think you know everyone involved in Magento has seen how those things can flourish. Um, you know at the beginning of this episode uh as I introduced everyone I listed Laura first but I saved the best for last in terms of uh, asking questions. So Laura, could you tell us a little bit more about who should be aware of Mageos, who should be involved? Um, a little bit from the people perspective because obviously there's a big ecosystem, there's a big community. But um, how do we make sure that Mageos is interacting with the right people and the right people are interacting with Mageos?

Speaker A: Well, no pressure whatsoever. That's for last.

Speaker D: Um,

Speaker A: we've been touching on this this whole time about community governance and community ecosystem. This Mageos is different from Magento from Magento association in the fact that it is, is community driven and truly and not just lip service to community driven. So you know my perspective is I am a freelancer that works with very small merchants and these types of businesses are definitely getting left behind in the Adobe acquisition, even kind of before, but not quite as blatantly. So I think you know who should be involved is anybody who's worked in the community before, whether it's opened a ticket somewhere or posted on a community forum. I feel like with Mageos there's an opportunity to actually be heard a lot more than there was before, especially for smaller players in the ecosystem.

Speaker B: That makes sense. And you mentioned businesses that in one way or another haven't their needs have not been as much the core focus of Magento in recent years. Um, I know that we heard already in the episode that there are their goals and aspirations when it comes to moving forward. Um, the Magento software to meet the needs of the community and not necessarily to just be a complete mirror of what Adobe has been doing, um, but to actually be able to, to stretch beyond that um, and meet merchants where they need to be met. Um, I know that I've seen things through the years like the addition of um, things like elasticsearch of dependencies that make it harder um, for a small business to use the software. They need more robust environments, they need more resource. Uh, have there been any initial thoughts from around Mageos around? I'll just say, um, directions that you hope to see the code base go in the next year or so and I know it's going to take time to see major change in one shape or another. Um, but just in terms of being able uh, to show some of that differentiation and maybe welcome people back in or make Magento more accessible to more businesses, way more closer to what it was in the Magento one days. I'll say. And you know there's a lot of different ways of looking at that. I mean I guess the other side to that coin is um, do you think that we'll also see more new features and ah, things that maybe Adobe doesn't have a lot of, um, a lot of need of adding a lot to the Magento code base. But uh, because I mean A, it's a mature product and B, people really want to slim it down in the first place to make uh, updates and patching and other maintenance easier and faster and less frequent and so if anything they're stripping things down. Um, but you, you know, this is technology, there's always evolution. So between those two areas of maybe, you know, helping to do things that would be more friendly to more merchants and helping to evolve the code base itself and maybe add new features or add things ah, that people would appreciate and value. Um, between those two directions, are there specific things that any of you are hoping to see come into uh, this repository in the coming year? I'll say, or maybe beyond.

Speaker F: I think the short answer is yes. Um, you might be able to add a bit more because you've been a bit closer with the tech side. But I know we've been looking uh, and I think it's Damien that's done a lot of the work. He's been one of the key contributors. He started looking at dependency graphs, um, for how all the modules in general open source, uh, intertwine and depend on each other. Because yes, we definitely do want to look at those different, um, almost like different starting points for the code base. So a slimmed down version like you mentioned or maybe like a headless version or yeah, all that kind of stuff. Versions without elasticsearch. So yeah, that's definitely one of the list. And yeah we also looking at the, probably again a bit longer term once, once we've got pull requests, uh, opens up new features and innovation as well. But yeah, we kind of want both. I know that kind of sounds, um, that's what I'm looking for, you know, sounds like opposite ends. But yeah, we want to be able to offer those things.

Speaker D: Yeah. Just to make another example, something that uh, we discussed just a few days ago, um, it was born in the community. A guy from the community had this idea of restoring a web installer. So this is another idea. Uh, that's very good. And it was not an idea born among these people that you see here, but was brought by the community. So uh, what we call more in general the quality of life Magento, that's not only the developer experience, we don't want to improve only the developer experience in general. Uh, the easy of use of the Magento platform, everyone including merchants, including users. Uh that's a goal that we have for sure.

Speaker E: Yeah, I would say it's not only for small uh merchants because uh what I see like when you consider that uh, I mean even the biggest players on the market they use strategic tools to analyze what's happening. You have five forces model, border five forces model and uh the power of suppliers is really important for uh E commerce, um merchants because uh when you, when, when you consider let's say low margin um businesses um you may have issues with using uh software that is licensed and that can easily be upgraded. I mean globally the, the globally the license will go up and um, you just your, your business is stopping to be profitable. And this is uh really important from strategic point of view because even the biggest players analyze what's, what's their situation. Actually they, they even analyze more deeply uh for example using this five forces model. So uh, when you have an open source project the it's it like it marks all the checkboxes with being open, being uh free being, being easy to develop, extend, change, take on your own, duplicate the repository and uh, do what you want with it. So from my perspective I talked even to really really big merchants, I mean with GMV huge and they considered um. They actually been asking about Mageos because they are afraid of losing the control over what the tools they use. Because this is the control the supplier gets in E commerce if you control I mean hosting provider, uh agency, software agency um support uh team uh and of course the owner of the uh, of the framework, the owner of the um, of the code. So this is actually not not only from, from my perspective it's not for small merchants but for all of them. For all of them that are aware of this issue being like a vendor lock and being locked to any particular solution. Yeah, so this is actually not regarding exactly the code but I mean the situation. Marvina, you wanted to add something maybe more about the code?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. There are several areas uh that we are looking to improve over the next year. One is uh onboarding of new developers which I think is very important because that's just part of keeping the ecosystem alive. It can't just be always the Same people. For 10 years new people are there and it's been very exciting to see new people at uh, in person events again. And that includes things like reducing the stack complexity like not having a hard requirement on things like Elastic and at the same time um allowing like the web installer for example. Somebody is completely new to Magento will Have a much easier time with something like that rather than having to learn the intricacies of Bin Magento setup install and all the flags and arguments. Right. So just making it a bit easier for them. And uh, the second part of course is uh, new features and improvements small and large. There are a lot of ideas uh, both say on the admin UX side how to improve things there and many of these are ideas that's been around in the community for a long time but haven't been picked up or contribution that haven't been picked up even though they might have existed as open source pull requests in the ah past. So we have the opportunity to just take them uh, and integrate them into Magenta open source. And uh, then there's the whole area that was mentioned before about the dependency graph cleanup. That's something I think that's a bit more long term where it will allow. It'll be the basis for many many improvements over time starting uh, by performance and security over uh, better developer experience, uh creating different distributions, et cetera. So yeah that's another area that we are looking to improve. Um, all of these probably will see movement within the next year I think just uh, to look a bit further on the roadmap, uh, I think we still have a couple of uh, years actually until we're so to speak ready uh, for merchants to really switch as such at the moment there's no difference between Major S and Magento open source. It's 100% identical. So over time the difference will become larger uh, even though we are trying to uh, remain upward compatible so to allow fluent migration from one side to the other time uh, sooner or later there might come a time where we decide that this compatibility uh, is no longer required and then we can uh, see how to go from there. But that'll be quite some time in the future I believe. Um, we definitely want to take all of the ecosystem with us uh in regards to extension vendors and such. So it won't be a hard break or something like that. So getting to the point where Major OS is actually definitely without a question the better choice compared to Magento Open Source, uh, that's not something that will be in let's say a couple of months or maybe not even a year I think uh, it'll be a couple of years, two or three years. So up until then people could choose Madras if they wanted to live more on the cutting edge or they could choose Magento Open Source which is great too. No problem. It won't be that much of A significant difference. Um, but this time will allow us to grow the platform, to improve it, to grow the processes and mature the processes around maintaining this. And, uh, yeah, I think that's what it takes. So then when we reach that point, uh, yeah, we'll be a very strong base distribution for many, many new companies can also build upon.

Speaker F: Awesome.

Speaker B: Well, I think we've given the audience a lot to chew on, um, and a lot of clarity, a lot of vision into the future of the Magento community and ecosystem. Um, I want to thank each of you that, um, I know we didn't do big introductions for each of you at the beginning of the episode, but obviously, uh, I know your reputations and we'll have links, um, for people to learn more about you in the episode notes. Uh, but each of you has contributed so much to this community through the years. So thank you for the time to join us today. Before we wrap up, does anyone have any, uh, final thoughts? Anything that we might have glazed past or glazed over that we want to touch on really quickly before we part, uh, ways for the day.

Speaker D: I have a thought to share. That's my motto. That is, there is nothing positive and being negative. So if you are part of this ecosystem, um, of this community and you feel upset in some way with Adobe or how things are going, uh, don't be negative towards, uh, something that has made living for a lot of time for many of us. But transform that energy into something positive and join us on Discord. Join Major S and put your energy in something positive. That is Major S and its evolution.

Speaker B: I love that.

Speaker F: Thank you.

Speaker B: Life's short, you know, and, uh, if you care about something, get involved.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker F: Awesome.

Speaker B: All right, well, to each of you, thank you very, very much for sharing your time today. I know we've got people in a whole bunch of different time zones in this episode. Um, to our, our listeners and viewers. As always, thanks for tuning in and we'll have more great content like this for you soon. Thanks for listening to the Jetrails podcast. You can subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. We also post full videos of most episodes on the Jetrails, YouTube and Facebook channels. You can find links@jetrails.com podcast have, uh, questions about an episode? Is there a topic you'd like us to cover in the future? We're at jetrails on LinkedIn and Twitter. Do you want to sponsor this podcast? Sorry, but we're committed to ad free listening. We are, however, always looking for guests that our listeners will benefit from and don't forget to like the podcast on whatever platform you're tuning in from. It's a small ask, but it's a big help. We appreciate it. And more importantly, we appreciate you.