Middle Management Meltdown: Are They Breaking?

1 - > Kieran Gilmurray: Last time we talked, we talked about retiring 2 - > the term HR. 3 - > This time we're going to talk about middle managers. 4 - > Now, maybe there's the initial challenge if we're expecting 5 - > middle managers to be here. 6 - > We may be slightly mistaken.

7 - > Only on the basis that we seem to be putting a tremendous 8 - > amount of pressure on is it underprepared, undercooked, 9 - > overcooked, overworked middle managers? 10 - > Where are that group sitting today, Laura? 11 - > SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that's the key word for me, 12 - > Kieran, is the overworked or certainly the perception or 13 - > feeling of being overworked. 14 - > And we have continued, you know, this isn't a new phenomenon.

15 - > We continue to expect people to lead, communicate, prioritize, 16 - > you know, manage performance, give feedback. 17 - > But the reality continues to be is that most people were never 18 - > actually taught how to do any of these things. 19 - > And we surprisingly have a we never taught people how to work 20 - > properly problem. 21 - > You know, I was working recently with a really, really great 22 - > group of middle managers.

23 - > They were super capable, really bright, really experienced, 24 - > technically really, really strong in their area. 25 - > And we got into a conversation about performance management, 26 - > which, as we all know, and certainly from my own 27 - > experience, as soon as the term performance management is so 28 - > much as referenced, people have the ick. 29 - > The back is up, people don't want to know about it. 30 - > But we don't we weren't talking about the system, we were 31 - > talking about the actual conversations, and people tend 32 - > to get kind of hooked up on the systems, and that's what they 33 - > focus on.

34 - > But in talking about the conversations, one of these 35 - > middle managers said really openly, I avoid these 36 - > conversations unless I really absolutely have to. 37 - > And it's not because they didn't care or because they weren't 38 - > capable, but nobody had really shown them how to do it really, 39 - > really well. 40 - > And when we dug into it, it wasn't just performance 41 - > conversations, it was prioritizing, giving feedback, 42 - > running meetings, all the things that actually make work work.

43 - > And Kieran, you and I have spoken about this before, where 44 - > you know, we're certainly in the the my clients that that often 45 - > it can feel for me that that it's very basic, the kind of 46 - > skills and the kind of information that we share with 47 - > people, and they lap it up. 48 - > They want to know more about it. 49 - > And and it does come down to that because those things that 50 - > make work work, we haven't been teaching people how to do. 51 - > And it really struck me, you know, we promote people, we 52 - > expect a huge amount from them, but we rarely stop and say, Have 53 - > we equipped them with the fundamentals to do that really 54 - > well?

55 - > And it is that word, fundamentals, and often we can 56 - > perceive that as I suppose the dirty part of work, right? 57 - > It's not that people aren't capable, but it's we're 58 - > expecting a capability from them that was never built. 59 - > So when we talk about performance issues, engagement, 60 - > or even you know, leadership gaps, it is the question what's 61 - > wrong with people, or is it what have we never actually taught 62 - > them? 63 - > Kieran Gilmurray: Have we hired the wrong people?

64 - > Like dig go back a little bit here because again, I worry that 65 - > we're now having to uh mother or parent or father or they uh a 66 - > group of highly paid adults who should know these things or 67 - > should they? 68 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, organizations don't teach these skills for 69 - > that assumption, they assume adults already have those 70 - > skills. 71 - > You know, so you're experienced, you've been promoted, you've 72 - > been hired based off uh you know an amazing job description, uh 73 - > an amazing capability framework or core skills.

74 - > You should know how to do this. 75 - > But the reality is that most people were never taught how to 76 - > give feedback, they were never taught how to have difficult 77 - > conversations, how to manage time reactively, and that can 78 - > confuse activity with effectiveness. 79 - > So we promote people into leadership roles and expect 80 - > capabilities that were never really developed. 81 - > You know, so should they be developed, or are we hiring 82 - > people on the assumption that that skill set is there without 83 - > actually measuring or checking that it is?

84 - > Kieran Gilmurray: Well, we we've jumped in. 85 - > So let's step back a little bit. 86 - > What should what is a manager? 87 - > If uh God forbid we have to go back to the very fundamentals, 88 - > but what is a manager?

89 - > What do we expect them to do? 90 - > Because this middle management group have had a kicking for 91 - > years, you know, the the the best thing ever, because we got 92 - > the board and then we got the front line and we need someone 93 - > to interpret it the worst thing ever because they're getting in 94 - > the way of of the instruction and the actual real work. 95 - > So draw back a little bit. 96 - > What is a middle manager?

97 - > What are we saying they're doing? 98 - > And then what are we saying the skills they need are in 2026 to 99 - > 2020 thirty? 100 - > Because I'll I'll talk about World Economic Forum and what I 101 - > think they need, but let's draw back a little bit before we kick 102 - > them any further. 103 - > SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, I think you know, in a very, very simple 104 - > version, when we look at what a manager is and defining what it 105 - > is, a manager is or should be someone responsible for getting 106 - > work done through other people.

107 - > Kieran Gilmurray: So are we just very people? 108 - > Are we well let's let's stay a little bit on that. 109 - > So it a manager today won't know all the things that their team 110 - > knows. 111 - > And therefore, when I take it from a digital and AI 112 - > perspective, I have leaders all the time who haven't got a clue 113 - > what the word vibe coding means, what a prompt is, and therefore, 114 - > if they're getting work done through their team, they're 115 - > telling them what they should be doing in 2023, not 2026.

116 - > And uh the second thing is the proposition that a manager is 117 - > there, you know, to mind a team, grow a team, develop a team, 118 - > coach a team, you know, remove obstacles, but not actually do 119 - > the work themselves. 120 - > Is that not something as well? 121 - > Because that's maybe the conflicting bit. 122 - > Because do I know what it means to be a manager?

123 - > In other words, what's expected of me? 124 - > Maybe that's not clear here at all. 125 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but do I need to be told what that is and what 126 - > the expectations are, or should I innately know that? 127 - > And I think that's the argument that that we we are having and 128 - > that we need to be having because the assumptions are 129 - > being made without those questions being asked.

130 - > And we know that, like if we look at research from Deloitte, 131 - > you know, we could you mentioned coaching, coaching and 132 - > developing people is now one of the most critical capabilities 133 - > of managers. 134 - > It really affects performance, it directly affects indeed 135 - > performance, engagement, and retention. 136 - > So managers are not no longer judged by just what they 137 - > deliver, but it's how well their people perform and grow. 138 - > So to your point there, that's that is part of the expectation 139 - > or the the new or current definition of what a manager is.

140 - > But are we telling people? 141 - > Kieran Gilmurray: Well, go back to what you're saying there, 142 - > because I've seen, and maybe this is slightly biased 143 - > experience, because I adore coaching, I'm a qualified 144 - > executive coach, I made sure I was. 145 - > Uh, when the rubber hits the road, it's can you please stop 146 - > coaching and just get more output? 147 - > You know, I I see a lot of that.

148 - > And and we're talking about soft skills here, or what was 149 - > traditionally called soft skills. 150 - > Are we talking about still needing soft skills? 151 - > Are we talking about operational skills? 152 - > What are what are the skills that we think managers need 153 - > today to allow them and their teams to be successful?

154 - > And ultimately the organization. 155 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, I think we need to reframe how we define 156 - > those skills because historically we've always 157 - > referred to those types of skills as soft skills or core 158 - > skills. 159 - > And they've become, in a lot of particularly bigger 160 - > organizations, what we would describe as like off-the-shelf 161 - > training programs where, you know, aligned to a core skills 162 - > program, we have you know communication skills and 163 - > delegating skills, and and I select to attend one of those, I 164 - > tick that box, and that's great.

165 - > I now have that skill, but we're not actually measuring any of 166 - > those skills. 167 - > So, in terms of the bigger picture and what matters to the 168 - > organization, if we can't track those skills or we can't measure 169 - > those skills, are they really important? 170 - > So I think moving forward when we're looking from you know 2026 171 - > and beyond, you know, the coaching piece and people 172 - > development, that's one of the critical skills that we will 173 - > need.

174 - > The also basic skills around communication and difficult 175 - > conversations. 176 - > Difficult conversations are one of the biggest gaps, and they've 177 - > been identified as one of the biggest gaps for managers. 178 - > And if we're looking at, say, that that concept that you 179 - > mentioned at the start, the dirty world of work, you know, 180 - > the most basic leadership skill of all is conversation, and it's 181 - > still the least developed. 182 - > So that is a skill that we will require going into 2026 and 183 - > beyond, but it's a skill that we need to think about how we are 184 - > turning the dial on that skill.

185 - > So instead of having those off-the-shelf training programs, 186 - > we look, we need to look at how we can embed that skill 187 - > development into our day-to-day practices. 188 - > And you know, we know that people say attention span has 189 - > reduced significantly. 190 - > So, what are we doing to amend our interventions in order to 191 - > get the most bang for our book? 192 - > You know, and a lot of organizations are turning to 193 - > bite-sized modules, whereby you're looking at on-the-job 194 - > training for 60 to 90 minutes or online bite-sized pieces of 195 - > training that people can digest at a time that suits them.

196 - > The other areas that we look at are the likes of decision 197 - > making. 198 - > And, you know, we know that our middle managers are they've been 199 - > getting it kicking for years. 200 - > They are drowning in meetings and reporting and admin. 201 - > You know, the McKinsey report that was released there recently 202 - > shows that they spend up to, I think it was about 35 to 40 203 - > percent of their time on non-people related tasks.

204 - > So it's not just like basic time management, it's deciding what 205 - > actually matters and stopping the rest and having the scope or 206 - > the being given the permission almost to stop doing that the 207 - > rest and focus on what actually matters. 208 - > And it's something that that goes on. 209 - > Kieran Gilmurray: So let me challenge you. 210 - > And again, that's my role in this.

211 - > I know, I know. 212 - > That's my role in this protocol. 213 - > You bring the brains every challenges and the offerness. 214 - > SPEAKER_00: I don't know if we've got this balance right 215 - > yet, Kieran.

216 - > Kieran Gilmurray: Yeah, we have. 217 - > So we mentioned a moment ago, we need to teach people 218 - > communication skills. 219 - > Really? 220 - > You're you're telling me that I need to teach a manager to talk.

221 - > And the second one was we then need to assess it. 222 - > What why the hell am I assessing this at all? 223 - > I've given you the training, go and do the training. 224 - > If I have to tell you and check in that you're doing the 225 - > training, it becomes very parent child.

226 - > You know, whereas if I put the right individual in the first 227 - > place who uh I hope can communicate effectively in some 228 - > shape, form, or other, I give them guidance and training. 229 - > They should do it themselves without me having to check. 230 - > And ultimately, you know, you control whether you're in the 231 - > meetings or not. 232 - > Elon Musk says if you're not adding value, just walk out.

233 - > Then surely we need to take a lot more responsibility here for 234 - > actually taking what we've learned and putting it into 235 - > shape without HR having to go back and check that we've 236 - > actually done it, because that that now becomes parent-child. 237 - > The second thing is it's up to you to construct your own 238 - > working week to make sure that you're actually delivering 239 - > things that add value, not putting yourself into meetings 240 - > and other routines that fill the week and feel comfortable 241 - > because that's called activity, it's not called you know 242 - > directed action or outcome-based.

243 - > SPEAKER_00: Uh, I love how you frame that. 244 - > Despite your challenging uh position, I I I love how you 245 - > frame that because you used, and I don't know if you noticed, you 246 - > used the word should pretty regularly. 247 - > Kieran Gilmurray: I don't even listen to me, so I'm not 248 - > expecting anybody else to, so don't worry. 249 - > SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh my my uh antenna went up for the word 250 - > should because you you did refer to that quite a lot.

251 - > And yes, absolutely, they should be taught communication because 252 - > we know that it underpins performance, collaboration, 253 - > trust, all that great stuff that we need to have. 254 - > But yet the research still tells us that it's one of the top 255 - > drivers of disengagements. 256 - > So we know that managers who communicate will drive higher 257 - > performance and retention. 258 - > So if this you know, the standard answer is always going 259 - > to be of course we need communication skills.

260 - > Everything runs through conversation. 261 - > We know that, but maybe the problem isn't communication, it 262 - > could be the clarity because you'll often hear things like, 263 - > oh, we need better communication. 264 - > But what we actually mean is maybe priorities are unclear, 265 - > decisions are vague, you know, expectations are inconsistent or 266 - > haven't actually been made clear. 267 - > So people communicate more, great, but nothing really 268 - > improves.

269 - > So more communication doesn't necessarily necessarily fix for 270 - > poor thinking. 271 - > So a lot of training focuses on, you know, and I've delivered 272 - > training on this myself around tone, phrasing, and you know, 273 - > frameworks, more frameworks and more models, but avoids maybe 274 - > saying the hard thing or being direct or making clear 275 - > decisions. 276 - > So we ultimately end up with polite conversations and a lack 277 - > of clarity. 278 - > And, you know, it can be sometimes a courage gap.

279 - > People don't have the courage to speak up. 280 - > They should have, but they don't, you know, and that I 281 - > think is probably where AI is also, and I know we weren't 282 - > going to maybe mention that, but AI is changing what good 283 - > communication looks like as well, because AI can now, and we 284 - > we've all been on the receiving end, or we've all been on the 285 - > attempted drafting. 286 - > I love when you talk AI because you lose me completely, but 287 - > we've all attempted to use AI to draft emails or to structure 288 - > feedback and suggest wording, you know, and the value might 289 - > shift to how well you can write or phrase to how clearly you can 290 - > think.

291 - > And then the judgment piece that we mentioned last week, that 292 - > then comes into play. 293 - > So do we need communication skills? 294 - > Yes, but not in the way we've traditionally taught them. 295 - > It's not more polished, it's clearer thinking, okay, and 296 - > better judgment.

297 - > Kieran Gilmurray: In defense of the AI club, uh, everybody 298 - > notices really poor communication when it comes to 299 - > AI. 300 - > Funny, they don't call it out with people. 301 - > And and uh, why I see some of that what you might call AI slop 302 - > communication, so just doing it wrong. 303 - > Because we have to remember, and this is a bit uh not in defense 304 - > of machines, because I adore people more than technology.

305 - > Uh, 34% of us are emotionally intelligent. 306 - > Notice I put me in that as well, just to get me in. 307 - > But I put all my content through my emails through through an 308 - > engine to make sure that I'm not upsetting anyone. 309 - > Uh, and therefore, you know, the the AI is the chance if we code 310 - > it right and prompt it right and build it right, that will 311 - > actually help all the things that you're actually describing, 312 - > you know, structure a message, make it simple, focus on the 313 - > audience and everything else.

314 - > You know, so again, it it's it's in there and helping. 315 - > But it is extraordinary that we're having to explain to 316 - > people how to communicate with each other. 317 - > And remember, now we're we're in a multi-generational workplace 318 - > as well. 319 - > Where you mentioned, you know, we need to verbally communicate 320 - > when actually we do and we don't.

321 - > I think that's where communication falls down, is 322 - > that we're taught a framework of how to communicate. 323 - > But actually, that we're becoming robots then. 324 - > We're becoming the AI in the human machine because we're 325 - > delivering it in a very standardized, formulaic way. 326 - > Whereas the generation that's coming through to work actually 327 - > don't talk to me.

328 - > And it's not that I'm not communicating, it's just my 329 - > communication style is different. 330 - > It's called texting and it's called whatever. 331 - > And it's different generations are going, why don't you just 332 - > talk to me? 333 - > And that generation's going, Why do we have to have a meeting?

334 - > Because I've told you everything you need to know in an in a 335 - > WhatsApp, in a in a text message. 336 - > So I I challenge us uh with frameworks for a start, and 337 - > that's why I worry. 338 - > You know, we go back to what we said last week. 339 - > Do we need to change HR?

340 - > What you're describing to me is that the fundamentals are still 341 - > the same. 342 - > We need to communicate, we need to organize people, we need to 343 - > manage people, we need to be, you know, we need, we need, we 344 - > need. 345 - > But somehow all of this is still not working. 346 - > So if I push you a little bit and say, look, what how do we 347 - > get what are the skills?

348 - > Because I hear about agility, flexibility, analytical 349 - > thinking, data, AI literacy. 350 - > I also think people should have basic financial literacy at a 351 - > level. 352 - > But you know, I also hear about systems thinkers and I hear 353 - > about self-awareness and I hear about incredible curiosity, all 354 - > these things that are going to help us survive. 355 - > You know, and all of a sudden I'm going, oh my God, even when 356 - > I'm saying that, I'm thinking that's a lot in one beastie.

357 - > And then you see a lot of organizations who, rather than 358 - > using technology to allow great people to achieve more with 359 - > more, more tech, more, more and better people, more and better 360 - > outcomes, we're still making all the same fundamental mistakes 361 - > that we've been making for years and we're still not moving 362 - > forward. 363 - > And now what you can do, by the way, this is the great one, is 364 - > now we're going to give you more autonomy.

365 - > You can now do your own HR, you can now do your own procurement, 366 - > you can now do your own finance, and you go, okay, so when I do 367 - > all that, at what stage of the day can I do the work that I was 368 - > actually employed to do? 369 - > Let's imagine this technology or something, and now I need 20 370 - > skills because the World Economic Forum have decided what 371 - > those look like, I'm exhausted. 372 - > So, so how are we going to help people that are listening into 373 - > this podcast go, oh my God, I I I feel this pain, and and 374 - > hopefully I'll listen to this on unless back because I'm too 375 - > busy.

376 - > So, what how do we actually train people and how do we 377 - > actually structure these roles or businesses to allow managers 378 - > to be really effective and to create organizations that work 379 - > for everyone, particularly when we're talking about the change 380 - > of pace, the change of agility that's required to meet uh 381 - > multi-generational needs internally inside of the 382 - > business, but make sure we're actually delivering a product or 383 - > service that someone wants to consume in a new and digital way 384 - > and communicate with them effectively to make sure the 385 - > whole machine works itself.

386 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it it's it's no challenge there, by the 387 - > way. 388 - > There's about there's about 20 questions there. 389 - > You've got three minutes. 390 - > Um well, I I I you know I I you know I love the generational 391 - > topic, and you know I love to discuss ad nauseum the the I 392 - > thought I'd give you the bone.

393 - > Kieran Gilmurray: I thought give me the bone. 394 - > SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna go for it, I'm not gonna go for it. 395 - > I I I've got too much um bashing over talking about the younger 396 - > generation. 397 - > So all of those elements that you've just mentioned, I could 398 - > discuss ad nauseum.

399 - > And I think for coming from uh a training, a learning and 400 - > development background, you know, the issue isn't just that 401 - > we don't teach the skills, it's that I think currently looking 402 - > at it, it's we continue to teach treat them as training topics. 403 - > So we need better communication. 404 - > You need to go into communication skills. 405 - > We need better listening, you'll go into listening skills.

406 - > We're continuing to treat them as training topics. 407 - > So we haven't moved on for any generations in terms of moving 408 - > away from that training topic approach and looking at it from 409 - > a daily practice and separating them from, I suppose, real work 410 - > because we're not actually embedding them in how the work 411 - > actually happens. 412 - > So if, you know, I and I come from the background where we had 413 - > the soft skills, we had the core skills, I think we need to 414 - > reframe how we actually define that skill set that we aspire to 415 - > and those skills that we want to identify in the future 416 - > organization.

417 - > So, you know, more progressive organizations are reframing them 418 - > as operating skills, i.e., how work actually gets done. 419 - > So, what I would encourage listeners to do is to think 420 - > about what they're doing and defining standards for running 421 - > the dreaded meetings.

422 - > As basic as it sounds, it is looking at the standards for 423 - > running meetings, look at the standards for giving feedback, 424 - > and look at the standards for decision making and build them 425 - > into onboarding, build them into your promotion criteria, build 426 - > them into your leadership expectations and tell people 427 - > about it. 428 - > You know, define what good looks like for three of those things, 429 - > you know, a good meeting, a good feedback conversation, a good 430 - > one-to-one, making it visible and making it expected.

431 - > But again, it's it's the follow-through and it's the 432 - > embedding piece, Kieran, that's different to what organizations 433 - > have traditionally been doing, is that we we look for that 434 - > movement in what people are doing and we hold people 435 - > account. 436 - > You know, you you mentioned earlier that we're accountable 437 - > for our own, developing our own career. 438 - > There is still that expectation of my organization telling me 439 - > what to do and telling me what good looks like.

440 - > And maybe we need to meet people in the middle here and make it 441 - > visible, make it expected, but also hold people account. 442 - > You know, so replace training with you know practice loops or 443 - > habits. 444 - > You know, we're moving away from workshops, and I'm doing myself 445 - > out of work and saying this, but we need to move away from that 446 - > workshop one-off training sessions. 447 - > You know, often with clients that I work with, I will say 448 - > unless there's follow-through or unless there's actually impact 449 - > or value add here, I'm not going to engage in a tick-the-box 450 - > exercise.

451 - > We need to practice embedding into real work. 452 - > And what that actually looks like, you know, is weekly 453 - > practice. 454 - > Okay. 455 - > Give one piece of developmental feedback this week, run one 456 - > meeting using a structured agenda and reflect afterwards 457 - > what worked, what didn't work.

458 - > I know it sounds basic, I know it sounds a little bit boring, 459 - > but they are all practices that if we can embed them into our 460 - > day-to-day interactions, they become the more the norm. 461 - > They are the things that are gonna move that dial and have 462 - > that operational impact, not that one-off training workshop. 463 - > You'll case it. 464 - > Kieran Gilmurray: So who's gonna do that though?

465 - > Because at worst here, Laura, I'm hearing I need a tick box 466 - > that says this is what a good meeting looks like. 467 - > Then I'm gonna go into a room, then I'm gonna assess you 468 - > against those ticks to make sure you're doing it. 469 - > And I know that's not what you're suggesting. 470 - > So bring it to life for me because someone's gonna sit here 471 - > and go, okay, I I love that feedback.

472 - > Because I love feedback, mentorship, uh, coaching. 473 - > I absolutely adore it. 474 - > Others are more defensive, you know, and that could be just 475 - > personal history, it could be the environment they're in. 476 - > But bring it to life.

477 - > I I'm now turning our HR people into executive coaches who are 478 - > going to sit with me and and then feedback at the end of 479 - > every meeting, is that what we're saying? 480 - > SPEAKER_00: I think in a real world, that that's that's not 481 - > necessarily practical, you know, but it's looking at moving. 482 - > It's not saying HR is the process owner, it's saying HR is 483 - > the capability builder. 484 - > So if you think of HR as having that coaching mindset, but it's 485 - > not to, I suppose the key is making it real, and that's what 486 - > you're supposed to alluding to there.

487 - > But we're looking at a mindset, mindset shift. 488 - > So we're advised. 489 - > Peep-on-people issues, we're moving from that to coaching 490 - > leaders through them. 491 - > So it's providing leaders with executive coaching opportunities 492 - > and changing how HR shows up in conversation.

493 - > So instead of us giving them the answers, drafting the responses, 494 - > fixing the issues, you know, providing them with that 495 - > tick-the-box exercise, you know, we want to move from towards 496 - > what outcomes are you trying to achieve? 497 - > What conversations have you had so far? 498 - > What's stopping you from addressing it directly? 499 - > You know, one thing I've seen organizations do, which I think 500 - > works really well, is having people champions within the 501 - > business.

502 - > So instead of having your HRBP or your HR exec coach, you have 503 - > people champions within the business that are provided with 504 - > that support, guidance, and coaching that can then live that 505 - > in the business, show the business what good looks like 506 - > and ask those more challenging questions. 507 - > You know, giving a very simple coaching flow to them that 508 - > wouldn't be like training heavy, you know. 509 - > But if we think of like, and you've probably heard the phrase 510 - > the coaching spine, where we're looking at clarifying the issue, 511 - > creating ownership and committing to action.

512 - > Allow your people champion to have responsibility for that 513 - > within the business and stop HR doing the work for leaders, 514 - > which we mentioned last week. 515 - > We're looking at how we can build that capability within the 516 - > business opposed to providing the solutions from HR. 517 - > But do we have time? 518 - > Kieran Gilmurray: Do we have time?

519 - > Because I I say this we've now got coaching champions, we've 520 - > now got data champions, we've now got risk and governance 521 - > champions, we've now got automation champions, we've now 522 - > got you know when am I getting to do my job? 523 - > I mean, that's and and by the way, folks, we want you to do 524 - > all this in addition to your role. 525 - > We're not carving out 20% so you can drive everyone else. 526 - > SPEAKER_00: Most organizations will continue to struggle with, 527 - > you know, fix it yourself.

528 - > It's it's just faster today. 529 - > Coaching or providing that kind of gentle guidance and input, it 530 - > is slower today, but it will be faster in the long term. 531 - > And the question then becomes are we prepared to slow down now 532 - > to build capability that reduces workload later? 533 - > And I think that's a question that organizations will have to 534 - > ask themselves where they prioritize building that 535 - > capability at that level to enable work to get done more 536 - > effectively down the road.

537 - > You know, and some HR teams don't have that time because 538 - > they haven't stopped doing the work that shouldn't sit with us 539 - > anymore, as we discussed last week. 540 - > You know, that the elements that can be moved out of the HR remit 541 - > and where you know we can add that value via the coaching 542 - > approach, you know, HR may need to step in more directly, but 543 - > coaching can still happen alongside alternative 544 - > interventions or even traditional interventions.

545 - > We don't have time not to coach, would be my line on it. 546 - > We just haven't made that shift. 547 - > Kieran Gilmurray: Yeah, but here we're going back to so now I'm 548 - > sure HR professionals listening into this and going, when am I 549 - > going to get to do coaching? 550 - > When am I going to get to create?

551 - > I think this is a fundamental problem with organizations 552 - > today. 553 - > Notice you and I haven't talked about any taking anything out. 554 - > Uh and I am a massive fan before we put anything more into 555 - > business to do something called strategic subtraction, which is 556 - > we celebrate when we add more in, more AI champions, more 557 - > business partners, more data champions, more, more, more. 558 - > And all we're doing is layering and layering and layering on to 559 - > an already exhausted workforce.

560 - > Whereas this is the bit where I am a huge proponent of 561 - > technology and the change management piece. 562 - > So I think we'd need to redefine HR's role from administrators to 563 - > if you're going to expect me to coach, okay, well, how are you 564 - > assessing me? 565 - > How do we assess our managers? 566 - > All that needs to come into play.

567 - > But I think you can use a lot of technology. 568 - > And this isn't me removing the people. 569 - > This is using brilliant technology to allow people to 570 - > achieve more. 571 - > So, for example, when I go into businesses, they all want the AI 572 - > strategy.

573 - > What I talk about is strategic subtraction about what is we're 574 - > going to take away. 575 - > How do we free up another seven hours a week? 576 - > And everybody goes, You're never going to get a seven hour. 577 - > I can get you an easy 10.

578 - > It's it's not a problem using technology. 579 - > So, for example, as I'm coaching someone, I can get AI in real 580 - > time or post-event to give me an indication of how well I coached 581 - > or didn't coach. 582 - > I don't even need to do the coaching. 583 - > Now, again, this is a very personal thing.

584 - > I'm not sending you put technology at it, but I can put 585 - > an agentic AI into your hand, and that agentic AI agent can 586 - > watch everything you're doing, can give you, you know, feedback 587 - > on every aspect of your role, and can provide that feedback as 588 - > much or as often as you want. 589 - > I can automate and digitize a whole load of roles to get those 590 - > seven hours a week. 591 - > I can teach you basic behavioral things, for example, how to 592 - > optimize your working week in your diary, when are your best 593 - > times and most productive times, how not to switch tasks and 594 - > whatever.

595 - > You know, so I'm a tremendous fan of doing that first before 596 - > we start adding in champions here, champions there, champions 597 - > the other. 598 - > But notice even by giving you the seven and a half, ten hours 599 - > back a week, not a problem, folks. 600 - > It then comes down to, you know, the culture of the organization. 601 - > Have we got a coaching culture?

602 - > You know, it then comes down to, well, how are we then going to 603 - > assess our HR colleagues? 604 - > How do we get our HR colleagues to learn how to coach and mentor 605 - > in the first place? 606 - > And then when it comes to, you know, when you're talking about 607 - > real life skills, well, coaching and mentorship is one thing, but 608 - > how do I teach client centricity? 609 - > How do I teach colleague centricity?

610 - > How do I uh teach problem solvers? 611 - > How do I teach people work ethic? 612 - > Because let's be honest, you need a strong work ethic. 613 - > And if you don't have it, I can't coach it into you.

614 - > You know, you either will or you won't. 615 - > How do I teach emotional intelligence? 616 - > How do I teach AI, data analytics, financial literacy? 617 - > You know, the the things I think the Swiss Army knife manager 618 - > that we're expecting to have in place today plus run faster than 619 - > ever before without taking something out means that I've 620 - > ran my engine oil out about 200 miles ago, kilometers, if you're 621 - > listening in from America, anywhere else, and now I want 622 - > you to do more.

623 - > So I I think we need a more fundamental rethink of HR. 624 - > I think we need a fundamental rethink of management and 625 - > structures. 626 - > I think we need a fundamental rethink of how we're judging 627 - > success. 628 - > Otherwise, we're tinkering at the edges still, regardless of 629 - > tech or whatever else.

630 - > We're still tinkering at the edge edges in an age where we're 631 - > demanding more. 632 - > And I don't mean the good more, which is achieve more with more 633 - > and better tech and more and better coaching and more and 634 - > better leadership. 635 - > So I still don't think we're actually solving anything for 636 - > anyone so far. 637 - > We've just said, here's more, folks.

638 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, I would challenge you on that because I 639 - > think when last week when we spoke about this and we talked 640 - > about the idea of the traditional versus the 641 - > future-focused HR, and we did land on the space of AI removing 642 - > admin, for example, from HR that we continue to do. 643 - > You know, that's certainly one space where AI is going to 644 - > enable HR and is already enabling HR to free up time to 645 - > focus on the value add, to focus on the coaching, to start 646 - > building capability and step back.

647 - > I do think that there is accountability here for HR 648 - > because we are still holding on to those elements, despite the 649 - > fact or the potential fact of AI removing those elements, we 650 - > still have an innate need to hold on to those things. 651 - > And we have a responsibility here to remove ourselves from 652 - > ownership. 653 - > And it's only HR that can remove that dependency. 654 - > And we're still fixing it, we're actually going to be that 655 - > bottleneck.

656 - > So I actually would disagree with you in that that the space 657 - > we have provided space for AI to take on, you know, writing 658 - > feedback, managing everyday people issues, being uh 659 - > exclamation points for everything. 660 - > We cannot keep doing all of that. 661 - > We need to start building the capability, but we need to 662 - > relinquish the control. 663 - > So we I think certainly a takeaway would be to question 664 - > your position and question are you holding on to those elements 665 - > that really we need to relinquish control of?

666 - > You know, we can use AI to generate responses, but it can't 667 - > replace judgment. 668 - > So use AI where it makes sense, but we need to stop spending 669 - > time on what I should do, summarize this policy. 670 - > You know, AI can give us the words, but we need the judgment. 671 - > So I would say to our listeners, is are you continuing to hold on 672 - > to elements of HR that is no longer a value added, is no 673 - > longer where you're building capability, and it is where AI 674 - > or generative AI, whatever, whatever support is suitable in 675 - > your position, can come in and take that away and free up your 676 - > time to do what makes the difference.

677 - > You know, we can continue to use AI to do the same thing and do 678 - > it faster, well done, but nothing is going to change. 679 - > If we can use AI to stop doing the wrong work altogether, 680 - > everything is going to change. 681 - > So I think that we are in a space where we need to educate 682 - > ourselves as a HR population as to where AI can free us up, not 683 - > where AI can keep doing the same work faster, because that is not 684 - > going to bring any change.

685 - > It's what can I suppose I I just really there's there we're 686 - > banging our heads against a brick wall in so many ways 687 - > because we know all of the things that we need to do, we 688 - > know all of the things that spaces that we should be 689 - > spending time on, and we will always revert to that. 690 - > I don't have time to do this, I don't have time to do that. 691 - > We do have time to do it if we can use tools like AI to remove 692 - > those functions that we should no longer be responsible for and 693 - > push responsibility back to the business for people leadership 694 - > and support them in building capability.

695 - > Kieran Gilmurray: Yeah, I think I think that comes down to the 696 - > fundamental piece, isn't it? 697 - > That and again, I I always sort of oscillate between this a 698 - > little bit. 699 - > Uh and let me explain what I mean. 700 - > I'm not a huge fan of making faster crap.

701 - > In other words, you just put in to do the same old stuff. 702 - > You've just done it a little bit faster. 703 - > You can get home at night earlier, do whatever. 704 - > In the over the long term.

705 - > Now, in the short term, you know, to redesign what you're 706 - > doing. 707 - > So let's be honest, this is all going to take a little bit of 708 - > time. 709 - > You know, I need to go away and learn how to coach and mentor. 710 - > I need to redesign our onboarding programs.

711 - > I need to spend time, you know, not 20 hours doing admin, but I 712 - > actually need to spend 20 hours working with management, my 713 - > leadership team, coaching and mentoring those, you know, all 714 - > the better. 715 - > And again, I should be using AI to record the calls, to write up 716 - > the notes, or more importantly, let the manager write up their 717 - > own notes, take their own commitments, because again, I'm 718 - > not doing that for you. 719 - > But but in the long term, we need to redesign how we actually 720 - > operate, you know, and I think that uh is not just uh HR, I 721 - > think it's finance.

722 - > Because I've heard the same thing coming from finance 723 - > professionals, which is look, we're gonna give you more power, 724 - > aka, we're gonna shrink our team because we're under pressure 725 - > centrally at the budget. 726 - > And I'm gonna say, yeah, we had 30 in finance, now we've only 727 - > got 15. 728 - > But what they've done is taken the 15 people's roles or work 729 - > and handed to a manager who now needs to do their own payment, 730 - > their own budget, all the things that they, you know, that is 731 - > traditionally with a finance team.

732 - > Now, I expect everybody to financial literacy when you're 733 - > at a at a management level, but over the long term, I want an 734 - > entire redesign of the operating system. 735 - > Because if we're expecting 2020 firms to deliver in 2026, then 736 - > it isn't just the technology, it isn't just the functions and 737 - > departments that operate within those companies, but we need 738 - > different ways of actually being constructed. 739 - > So for me, instead of your traditional HR business, which 740 - > typically for many is people services, HR business partner, 741 - > COE, you know, I do want to use tech and AI as one tech to help 742 - > people business problem solve, to make a business impact.

743 - > And then that means fundamental reshaping roles like service 744 - > managers, uh, problem solvers, product managers, uh, as the 745 - > role of HR, because that's the series we're talking about at 746 - > the moment, to allow the business to have the greatest 747 - > impact, to free those individuals to have the biggest 748 - > impact, to allow the organization to work in a way 749 - > that it really needs to come into 2026 and 2027. 750 - > And if we don't start to take action now, all of a sudden, 751 - > businesses, which I think tend to, unless it's heavy, heavy 752 - > construction where you do need to invest over years, have 753 - > roughly got 18 month strategic cycles.

754 - > And therefore it's going to take 18 months to get all of these 755 - > you know new roles in place, like your vibe growth, market 756 - > manager, your your you know, your people. 757 - > SPEAKER_00: You have used those terms again on me, the vibe 758 - > coach. 759 - > SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean? 760 - > SPEAKER_00: And I'm jumping on that because you know, I think 761 - > you know, if for listeners, you know, is there is there a 762 - > potential here to remove the term manager entirely?

763 - > You know, some organizations are moving towards you know, 764 - > capability leads because manager implies control, which we would 765 - > have defined at the outset, not development. 766 - > You know, is is there, you know, could our listeners today say, 767 - > do you know what? 768 - > Is there one thing that I could take away? 769 - > What one thing could I take away from my managers this month?

770 - > Kieran Gilmurray: Yeah, but but this this goes well. 771 - > I love that subtraction piece, which is look, how can I take 772 - > something out to free the time? 773 - > Now, again, I think here, look, we need to use technology to 774 - > free people up to do the stuff that really matters. 775 - > I'm a huge fan of well-trained, well-capable managers.

776 - > I do think people have been put into roles that they're not 777 - > suited to. 778 - > But again, it's up to us to career path people, not just 779 - > land them in a role because they've been there two years and 780 - > we can't think of anything else to do. 781 - > We'll chuck them a bit of skill, we'll give them a bit of finance 782 - > work, we call that increased responsibility, uh, and claim it 783 - > as job enrichment when in fact it's job enlargement. 784 - > But how do we what are we going to send people away with to 785 - > today?

786 - > What is those two or three things that they need to do? 787 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, I I like to think in threes. 788 - > So for me, the three things would be if the role is broken, 789 - > stop training it. 790 - > Stop sending your managers on courses instead of fixing the 791 - > job you've designed.

792 - > Okay. 793 - > Managers don't need more skills. 794 - > We know that they need less to do. 795 - > Overload is the real performance issue, not capability.

796 - > If AI can do it, managers shouldn't be doing it. 797 - > Kieran Gilmurray: Unless it's emotional, if it's recording 798 - > meeting notes and doing all that type of stuff that AI is bred to 799 - > do, then we can free up time to allow managers to achieve more. 800 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we we didn't design the manager role, but 801 - > we've just kept adding to it. 802 - > Kieran Gilmurray: Massively agree.

803 - > So we take stuff out, we practice subtraction. 804 - > Again, that may involve other teams taking things back, 805 - > finance taking things back, procurement taking the role and 806 - > roll back, HR taking, you know, whatever. 807 - > I know, radical here to free them up. 808 - > Let me try and summarize where we got to.

809 - > So, like poor middle managers have a lot going on, probably 810 - > far too much. 811 - > Use the technology where it makes sense, but we need a 812 - > fundamental redesign of roles, managers and the others to allow 813 - > us to actually free people up to do the job that matters. 814 - > I do think at some stage we probably need to sit down and 815 - > and ask the audience, you know, what what are the skills that 816 - > you think you need in managerial roles and how would you go about 817 - > getting them?

818 - > You know, managers who are people coaches, who are highly 819 - > emotionally intelligent, who have a wide range of skills, 820 - > they're the thing that's actually going to make the 821 - > difference in the organization. 822 - > SPEAKER_00: And do you know that they want to be in that role? 823 - > Kieran Gilmurray: Ah, and that's and not the they need to be 824 - > because of promotion. 825 - > And my one is this, and I've said this many a time before, 826 - > and it'll seem odd as an absolute business technologist.

827 - > I I fundamentally position myself as that. 828 - > Only like tech that works. 829 - > I wish we prepared our managers. 830 - > I wish we spent as much time talking about our managers, I 831 - > wish we celebrated great management, great coaching, 832 - > great leadership, as much as we do technology.

833 - > If only we invested a fifth of what we're putting in AI into 834 - > creating great people to give them the skills that they need, 835 - > then for me, managers are 10x multipliers, some teams are 836 - > more. 837 - > Here, here train one manager, you'd be amazing. 838 - > Give them the tools, the training, the capability, 839 - > skills, whatever else they need and want and should have, and 840 - > let them loose. 841 - > And imagine then what your organization is going to be.

842 - > Because this is an age of AI. 843 - > Not that AI is the age of the defining thing, it's an age 844 - > where AI is getting a lot of attention. 845 - > The skill and the capability that's being enabled by that is 846 - > absolutely fantastic. 847 - > But we're still talking about all the fundamentals.

848 - > Great leaders make great teams, we make great businesses, and 849 - > that's the bit we need folks to concentrate on. 850 - > Thank you very much for listening in. 851 - > Next week we'll cover off intergeneration, and we might 852 - > use the word intergenerational conflict and then tear that 853 - > apart ourselves as well. 854 - > Laura, until next week.

855 - > SPEAKER_00: We're looking forward to seeing you next week. 856 - > Thanks, Amelia. 857 - > Take care. 858 - > Kieran Gilmurray: Thanks, everyone.