The Insurance Buzz · 2026-07-02 · 20 min
Key moments - from our scoring
Substance score
48 / 100
Five dimensions, 20 points each
Building a mega agency requires fundamentally different leadership approaches than managing smaller operations, according to Tunnell and Gillam. As agencies scale from $11M to $64M, owners face mounting pressure to perform despite higher revenue - payroll obligations, lead investment ROI requirements, and the need to maintain consistent team performance create an entirely different operating environment. Tunnell emphasizes that higher turnover becomes inevitable at scale; a 20-item producer who thrives in a smaller shop may not generate sufficient ROI in a larger one with expensive lead generation systems. Gillam identifies a critical bottleneck: promoting top producers into leadership roles often fails because production skill doesn't translate to people management. Both leaders now use Level 10 meetings (from the EOS framework) to maintain visibility without micromanaging, delegate confidently to core leadership teams, and make tough decisions about resource allocation based on six-month forecasts rather than immediate cash needs. The conversation reveals that mega agencies aren't inherently easier than smaller ones - they simply have different, often more complex problems around retention, standards alignment, and emotional maturity in leadership.
The biggest challenge is helping top producers transition out of leadership roles they shouldn't be in, while establishing clear performance benchmarks that apply across merged or acquired agencies that previously operated under different standards.
At larger agencies, you can't afford to keep people who don't fit the fast-paced environment or meet ROI thresholds on expensive leads; a $64M agency losing 2-3 people is manageable, but at $10-11M, losing one producer could cost your entire year.
No - your best producer is often not your best leader; instead, look for mid-tier producers or team members others naturally gravitate to, who have strong influence but may not have the highest individual production.
Communicate that decisions are forward-looking (six months out) rather than reactive to today's cash needs, and hire leaders with emotional maturity who understand the foresight behind the decisions.
Run weekly or bi-weekly Level 10 meetings with your core leadership team of 6-7 people using the EOS framework to stay up-to-speed on metrics, highlights, and challenges while letting your team own their domains.
Our reviewer’s read on each dimension, with quotes from the episode.
There are a handful of genuinely useful operational observations - particularly the $6-7M annual attrition math at scale and the perception problem of a hybrid producer-leader role - but large swaths of the transcript are validation talk, vague leadership platitudes, and a full mid-roll ad. The insight-per-minute rate is low.
you're you're losing six-seven million dollars out the door in a year as is, just with normal decent retention
a 20-item producer might be great fit in some agencies, unfortunately. It doesn't kind of work in our environment just because of the investment that we have in leads
The central thesis - best producer ≠ best leader - is one of the most recycled management observations across any industry, and the rest of the episode recycles intuitive truisms about scale and hiring. The one marginally fresh point is that a hybrid producer-leader creates a perception-of-favoritism problem, but it's underdeveloped.
usually it's your best agent. That's not necessarily your best leader.
when we installed somebody who was still, you know, producing it. There were, you know, kind of concerns that maybe they were getting different leads
Both guests are genuine practitioners who have run agencies at meaningful scale ($64M and $38M), and they speak from lived decisions rather than frameworks. However, the transcript extracts relatively shallow operational lessons from what should be substantial experience, leaving the caliber underutilized.
You went from 10 million or 11 million to 64 million in four years.
I have higher payroll like on a bi-month monthly basis than I had probably in 10 years when I was a small agent
The episode has some concrete anchors - $64M, $38M, 4-year growth window, $6-7M annual attrition figure, 7-person leadership team, EOS Level 10 meetings - but the majority of claims about turnover, ROI pressure, and leadership dynamics are asserted without supporting data or named comparisons.
you're you're losing six-seven million dollars out the door in a year as is, just with normal decent retention
we have uh right now seven people that help support, you know, and we do the level 10 meetings like from the EOS background
The host does drill down productively in places - asking what role to actually put a top producer in and whether production factors into promotion decisions - but defaults to summarizing and validating guests' points rather than probing or pushing back. The mid-roll ad interrupts momentum and 'That's a great question' is a recurring deflator.
Do you consider production when you're looking at promoting within? How important is that in your decision?
What's the next position that you can promote? What would you put them in? If you're not gonna put them in like the office manager, what is that head of sales?
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
Your team is leaving money on the table. Let's fix that. For 8 years, Weaver Sales Academy has helped 17,000+ insurance professionals sell more and close better. Ready to level up your team for Q3 & Q4? Book your call: Let's Talk Watch the full episode on YouTube: HERE What's in this episode: Most agency owners assume that a bigger agency means less pressure. John Tunnell and Rena Gilliam prove otherwise. In this highlight episode, Michael and Courtney Weaver pull the most critical moments from two interviews with mega agency owners who built from scratch and share the real dynamics of scaling an insurance agency past $30 million. John went from zero to $64 million as a scratch agent. Rena runs a $38-plus million dollar agency with a team of just over 30. Both are brutally honest about what it costs.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
1 - > SPEAKER_03: I think there's a stigma out there that j oh you 2 - > have a huge agency, so you're just making a shit ton of money 3 - > and it's like, well Yeah, but also no, like there is a ton of 4 - > pressure for you to perform because you have so many more 5 - > people on your team. 6 - > Your expenses are so much larger that you have to perform to pay 7 - > the bills. 8 - > On today's highlight episode, I am super excited because we're 9 - > going to be talking about mega agencies.
10 - > John Tunnell, JT, went from zero to 64 million as a scratch 11 - > agent. 12 - > Renee Gillam runs a 38 plus million dollar agency growing 13 - > every single month with a team of just a little over a 30. 14 - > I am very excited because JT and Rednae both are extremely 15 - > honest, transparent, tell you exactly what it takes, the 16 - > chaos, the growth, the processes, and everything in 17 - > between. 18 - > With that being said, let's start the show.
19 - > SPEAKER_02: You went from 10 million or 11 million to 64 20 - > million in four years. 21 - > Your team size, I would be curious the dynamics that 22 - > shifted there and what you had to go through from like a 23 - > leadership position. 24 - > Like what's the team at 11 million versus what's the team 25 - > at 64? 26 - > And I'm saying this because if somebody has like for myself, I 27 - > don't have a fear of failure.
28 - > I actually have a fear of success. 29 - > So when things start to get too big, I want to pull back because 30 - > I'm like, ooh, that's gonna take more of me, that's gonna take 31 - > more work, that's gonna take more money, that's gonna take 32 - > more time. 33 - > So talk a little bit about what 11 to 64 was like from a team 34 - > dynamic and leadership and what that that took from you. 35 - > SPEAKER_03: That's a great question.
36 - > SPEAKER_00: So I can paint the picture of chaos, right? 37 - > So it's like I I really do think 11 million dollar agency that my 38 - > role was a lot more involved at that level. 39 - > So I think as we scaled higher, I think the pressure kind of 40 - > shifted more to the leadership team being accountable for some 41 - > things when it's not working versus ultimately I am, but like 42 - > you know, just being supportive if they make a bad hiring 43 - > decision. 44 - > Like I I told you so, Michael.
45 - > I told you so, Courtney, you should never hire that person. 46 - > Like you can't you can't do that. 47 - > But I think where we saw, I think the biggest challenges is 48 - > that you know, minimum expectations, what is our 49 - > benchmark? 50 - > What are we willing to accept?
51 - > And as we brought in other agencies, it's challenged 52 - > because different, you know, it there's a reason why an agency 53 - > just kind of becomes stagnant and not investing and marketing, 54 - > not growing, and then you know, we we we have to be okay with 55 - > the change, but the hard part I think was just are these you 56 - > know, as sad as it is, the person that was a great 57 - > salesperson in an 11 million dollar agency is not always a 58 - > great one in a 64 million, like you know, a 20-item producer 59 - > might be great fit in some agencies, unfortunately.
60 - > It doesn't kind of work in our environment just because of the 61 - > investment that we have in leads, and you know, I I would 62 - > say there's more of a pressure for an ROI to be positive in a 63 - > larger agency than a smaller agency, um, is what I could 64 - > probably equate to that. 65 - > Leadership got messy because we would take, you know, if 66 - > Courtney was in an agency that we took over, you know, whether 67 - > it's right or wrong, my commitment was let's just bring 68 - > them in, figure out if this is a good fit for our agency, keep 69 - > them where they are in that role.
70 - > It didn't always align with our core values, didn't align with 71 - > kind of the fast pace of a busier agency. 72 - > Um, and that's unfortunate because it's it's nothing 73 - > against the person, it's just where they're at in their career 74 - > and where we're going sometimes don't align. 75 - > And I think for me, like I I really do genuinely like people, 76 - > and I think it's hard because you see people that aren't gonna 77 - > be a good fit in six months, and you can see the writing on the 78 - > wall, like it's like it it stinks, it sucks, you know.
79 - > It's like I want this person to work out, however, they're not 80 - > capable of that type of growth that we're going to. 81 - > So, to answer your question, I think we had more turnover, and 82 - > I think you know, you just have to realize that being a larger 83 - > agency, you're gonna have higher turnover just because you don't 84 - > have the luxury of like you know, when your payroll, I mean 85 - > it I I have higher payroll like on a bi-month monthly basis than 86 - > I had probably in 10 years when I was a small agent.
87 - > It's like, oh my gosh, like we gotta get everybody kind of 88 - > aligned faster than possible. 89 - > So I think to that also, it's like you know, we're not the 90 - > right fit for every candidate out there in the licensed agent 91 - > role. 92 - > Like, it's like if you can't get up to speed quickly, 93 - > unfortunately, we're not good whether you're LSP or a manager. 94 - > So I think that was the biggest change, and you know, having 95 - > more of an impact on growth, like at a bigger size, like you 96 - > know, you're you're losing six-seven million dollars out 97 - > the door in a year as is, just with normal decent retention, if 98 - > you will.
99 - > So I think that that you just have to be, I think, just not 100 - > focused so much on the the numbers as closely, even though 101 - > you have to, but use outside sources like you know, an 102 - > accountant, an attorney. 103 - > Um, I didn't have to think about that at a 10-11 million dollar. 104 - > Like everything that we did, we could control momentum a lot 105 - > faster than we can control now. 106 - > Um but I guess the advantage if there's changes, you know, we 107 - > can adapt to changes, we can add, we we have a lot of 108 - > processes to provide a lot of leads a day.
109 - > So if we need a scale back, we can do that quicker and probably 110 - > you know we can cut not that you want to say this, but you want 111 - > to say it like if something happened to like commission 112 - > skills or something and it gets cut back, we can absorb that a 113 - > lot easier than I could at 10 million. 114 - > Because if I lose two producers, that might be my whole year at a 115 - > 10 million dollar. 116 - > If I lose two or three people here, it's like okay, more leads 117 - > for everybody else at that point.
118 - > So uh and I say that as kindly as I can. 119 - > For sure, yeah. 120 - > SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, yeah. 121 - > That's just the economics of it.
122 - > Like as you as you grow, you have more people to to spread 123 - > that around. 124 - > SPEAKER_03: Um, you've been, and I just want to say thank you for 125 - > being very transparent with like you made a statement earlier, 126 - > something to do with uh I wrote it down, I can't find it right 127 - > now because I have a page full of notes, but the pressure to 128 - > perform. 129 - > Like your pressure to perform is greater now than it was at 10 or 130 - > 11 million.
131 - > And so and you just walked us through a lot of what you're 132 - > going through on a day, week, monthly basis with some of the 133 - > stressors, your leadership team, the decisions you're having to 134 - > make, and I appreciate you saying this because I I think 135 - > there's a stigma out there that j oh you have a huge agency, so 136 - > you're just making a chit ton of money, and it's like, well Yeah, 137 - > but also no, like there is a ton of pressure for you to perform 138 - > because you have so many more people on your team, your 139 - > expenses are so much larger that you have to perform to pay the 140 - > bills.
141 - > Now, yes, with a bigger size agency, you do have the ability 142 - > to also maybe cut in other aspects that a smaller agency 143 - > doesn't cut to get the cash that you would need to get, but those 144 - > are also really tough decisions to make. 145 - > Um, and so like there's nothing there's nothing easy about like 146 - > your where you're at in your role, um, it looks a lot 147 - > different than 10 and 11 million, but that doesn't mean 148 - > it's even any easier.
149 - > Like the decisions just get tougher. 150 - > The role, in my experience, just gets tougher because of the 151 - > decisions you have to make. 152 - > SPEAKER_00: And I think unfortunate because we have you 153 - > know, we have a core leadership team, like we have uh right now 154 - > seven people that help support, you know, and we do the level 10 155 - > meetings like from the EOS background, which basically 156 - > means just I sit on on that, and that's kind of like where you 157 - > know, I get up to speed on everything, so I still have a 158 - > pulse on the agency, even though I'm not like in the you know, 159 - > taking granny's uh payment talking about the cats anymore 160 - > kind of environment.
161 - > But I still get you know, hey, here's a customer highlight, 162 - > here's a LSP highlight of the week, that kind of thing. 163 - > So, um, but I think although that pressure, like my role is 164 - > not to freak them out all the time, so it's like you know, oh 165 - > my gosh, like we gotta cut back on this. 166 - > You did you see this coming up? 167 - > But I think it's it you have to be physically responsible, and I 168 - > think it's important to have leadership that can be mature 169 - > enough to understand, like, if you talk about a bill that we 170 - > need to cut it back a little bit, that they can have the 171 - > foresight to be like, okay, well, we're making decisions 172 - > because we're looking six months out versus like today we're 173 - > gonna have to cut people.
174 - > Oh my gosh, I gotta go back and tell the whole team. 175 - > Um, so it's just that emotional maturity, I think. 176 - > And I I look at our core values, and like, you know, probably in 177 - > 2010, I wasn't always that positive because I was in the 178 - > day-to-day calls, and it's like you have to remind yourself a 179 - > person needs so much love in that service chair, you know, 180 - > because they're the ones that are taking the heat, and you 181 - > have to remind yourself it's like, okay, can this person be 182 - > positive and work in that role?
183 - > What can we do to help support that through technology, through 184 - > training? 185 - > Technology training as you guys have a great product in that. 186 - > Um, but just you know, just help them think differently and try 187 - > to look through their eyes versus you know our eyes, and 188 - > sometimes we just look at it as an expense where it's more of an 189 - > investment in our team. 190 - > So um, but I'm very fortunate to have leadership that A supports 191 - > the vision, but B buys into it and understands their role in 192 - > making it happen long term.
193 - > SPEAKER_03: Let's talk about something really important right 194 - > now to you and your office. 195 - > Right now, expectations are all-time high, bonuses are 196 - > harder to hit, commissions are getting cut, your team is 197 - > underperforming. 198 - > Sure, maybe they've been trained in the past, you might be even 199 - > invested in training right now, but they're not doing it. 200 - > Not only is that costing you money in the future, that's 201 - > costing you money right now.
202 - > But not only money, stress, anxiety, panic, all the things 203 - > that do more damage to you than need to be done. 204 - > And it can be fixed. 205 - > That's the best thing. 206 - > You don't have a process or framework right now.
207 - > That's what we do at Weaver Sales Academy. 208 - > We've worked with over 17,000 insurance professionals just 209 - > like you across the country. 210 - > It is our eighth birthday. 211 - > We have a summer sizzle cell that I'm excited to share with 212 - > you.
213 - > Instead of$4,200, it's only $29.97. 214 - > That is over a$1,200 savings. 215 - > The average agency that works with us sees a 40% lift by day 216 - > 90 of working with us in auto fire and life insurance.
217 - > Not only that, if you're hiring and we're able to get brand new 218 - > hires up and selling in less than five days for you, make 219 - > sure you click the link below, book a call with my team, and 220 - > let's make sure that you crush not only your summer goals, but 221 - > also Q3 and Q4 so that you don't have to worry about panicking 222 - > during the holiday season, working more hours. 223 - > I want you to be able to spend time with your family and 224 - > friends.
225 - > And most importantly, I want you to make sure that you're making 226 - > the money that you deserve to make. 227 - > Click the link below. 228 - > Other than that, let's get back to the show. 229 - > What one or two things have you had to establish at a leader or 230 - > grow through like growing pains that you would have considered 231 - > as bottlenecks in your business?
232 - > Would you be willing to share right now that may help somebody 233 - > listening? 234 - > SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. 235 - > Um, you know, I think a lot of times in agencies, there is you 236 - > you end up with like almost an office manager. 237 - > There's this role that you know a lot of people end up with an 238 - > office manager, and usually it's your best agent.
239 - > That's not necessarily your best leader. 240 - > Can they they may not be able to influence? 241 - > Um, so so that was something that was really difficult for me 242 - > is I hired um well, I had my best agents. 243 - > Yes, they were amazing at working with the customers and 244 - > they could write business, but they weren't my best leaders.
245 - > Um, so that was one of the things that it was a really big 246 - > learning lesson for me, and it did bottleneck us for a while 247 - > because I didn't want to lose those agents, but I had to 248 - > almost backpedal them out of leadership once I really 249 - > discovered, like, hey, this isn't for them. 250 - > Good news, they really didn't like leading people, so that was 251 - > an easy backpedal. 252 - > Um, so they they actually still work for me and um they love 253 - > what they do now, so that's wonderful.
254 - > The second I would say is that you know, when you're when 255 - > you're trying to figure out how to develop agents and and you're 256 - > going, okay, I need to put somebody in to develop agents, 257 - > but I need the production, you know. 258 - > So when you when you're going, okay, like I really I don't have 259 - > the resources to be able to pull somebody out of production, but 260 - > they are definitely the person that I know should be listening 261 - > to calls, should be holding people accountable toward for 262 - > development.
263 - > That was a that was a moment for me that was a little bit 264 - > difficult. 265 - > SPEAKER_03: Okay, so I'm hearing one consistent in both of these. 266 - > Is so the very first one, and I don't know why this this has 267 - > been around for a long time in the insurance space. 268 - > It's just like, hey, you take your best producer and you turn 269 - > them into like your team lead, your manager, and it's constant 270 - > feedback.
271 - > Like we've heard the same thing from multiple leaders, just like 272 - > you, Renee, where it's like, actually, that is not the thing 273 - > to do. 274 - > It's usually like your mid-tier producer that has a really 275 - > great, like great at what they do, but they may not be like 276 - > that super just high energy or high motor type of producer. 277 - > Um, I don't know if you would agree with that or not, but like 278 - > that's kind of what I'm hearing is like you're it's not always 279 - > so for you agents out there that may be growing in your business 280 - > or you're about to promote someone within your business, 281 - > the thing to do right now is not necessarily to take your top 282 - > performer off the phone and actually have real conversations 283 - > with an individual that you find as a not natural leader, but the 284 - > one that most people gravitate to is what I always looked at in 285 - > the business.
286 - > Like, who where's my team gravitating to when they go to 287 - > ask for help? 288 - > Are they going to the top performer or are they going to 289 - > someone else within the organization? 290 - > SPEAKER_02: Right. 291 - > Would you agree with that, Renee?
292 - > Because that's the question that I would ask next is so who do 293 - > you promote? 294 - > So you're saying who who they gravitate towards? 295 - > SPEAKER_03: So I think so. 296 - > There's two, so we obviously have a lot of experience outside 297 - > of just the insurance agency.
298 - > Um we've had better luck finding people totally outside the 299 - > organization with leadership, uh, a resume, somebody that's 300 - > been in an organization before with um proven track record of 301 - > successes, where we have personally had a lot of luck in 302 - > hiring somebody up from outside to come in and and lead and take 303 - > that over. 304 - > I don't know if that's your experience or not, um, or if 305 - > you're promoting within. 306 - > What's your experience?
307 - > SPEAKER_01: We've done both. 308 - > Um, you know, uh 100%. 309 - > I totally completely agree. 310 - > Um, you know, I had a mentor of mine one time, he kind of 311 - > mentioned to me, like, look for who is influencing your team.
312 - > Have them run a meeting. 313 - > Like, have them have them run a meeting and don't watch, don't 314 - > watch the the person that you uh that who's running the meeting, 315 - > watch everybody else. 316 - > What is their reaction? 317 - > How do they react to that person?
318 - > Um, if they're looking down and they're not engaged, that's very 319 - > telling. 320 - > Um, you you you've gotta have somebody that's that's 321 - > influencing your people already, especially if you're hiring 322 - > within, because if you don't have that buy-in from them, they 323 - > are going to scrub struggle as a leader, no doubt about it. 324 - > SPEAKER_02: Do you consider production when you're looking 325 - > at promoting within? 326 - > How important is that in your decision?
327 - > SPEAKER_01: Absolutely. 328 - > Um you have to, you almost have to in our industry, right? 329 - > And so, um, and and it has gotten a little bit easier now 330 - > that we're a little bit larger, or now that we're larger. 331 - > Um so we're it can absorb uh production um by by you know 332 - > replacing it and down the funnel.
333 - > But um I do remember that moment that you're you're going, oh my 334 - > goodness, like I can't lose their their production. 335 - > But here's here's the reality of the situation in my mind now, 336 - > now that I'm kind of past that point, um you may lose them 337 - > anyway. 338 - > If you're not if you're not developing them, and you know, 339 - > they're gonna become complacent. 340 - > And so I think it's really important as agency owners that 341 - > we have like very good conversations with our folks 342 - > about like what are your aspirations?
343 - > If if you're not having those conversations with your agents, 344 - > you are going to lose them. 345 - > There's there's just too many choices or places for them to go 346 - > now. 347 - > Um, so I have those conversations with my agents all 348 - > of the time. 349 - > Like, what are your goals?
350 - > What and and if I'm not developing them on that stuff, 351 - > shame on me. 352 - > Because that's really what they're needing from us. 353 - > SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I want to drill down on this a little bit 354 - > because when you have somebody that is your top perfor, your 355 - > top performer, they have the highest sales and they want to 356 - > grow. 357 - > What's the next position that you can promote?
358 - > What would you put them in? 359 - > If you're not gonna put them in like the office manager, what is 360 - > that head of sales? 361 - > Like, what does that look like for you? 362 - > SPEAKER_01: I have seen so I've played around with this 363 - > actually.
364 - > Originally, I had them in a little bit of a hybrid model. 365 - > I don't admit that it's not the best though, because you really 366 - > don't want your leaders, you know, you don't want somebody 367 - > who's responsible for you know for overseeing somebody else to 368 - > be thought of as competition, you know. 369 - > Like, and and and that was what we we ran into when we installed 370 - > somebody who was still, you know, producing it. 371 - > There were, you know, kind of concerns that maybe they were 372 - > getting different leads or you know, different things.
373 - > And while they weren't, it was perception, you know, we really 374 - > have to be careful with that when we're trying to install 375 - > leaders leadership. 376 - > So um I like the model where you actually install them as a 377 - > leader, they're gonna have to work to develop, and they're 378 - > also gonna have to work on accountability. 379 - > The other things is taking things off of the agency owner's 380 - > plate. 381 - > You know, I measure my leaders and their success all by how 382 - > much they're able to pull off of my plate so that I can do other 383 - > things.
384 - > Um, so so that that's kind of how I've always built out that 385 - > role is we're not only going to concentrate on developing our 386 - > producers because we're kind of talking on the sales side. 387 - > So we're not only gonna develop those producers, we're also 388 - > going to make sure that everybody's very clear on their 389 - > goals and we're tracking all of those things and making sure 390 - > that our trajectory every single month is pointed toward that. 391 - > Um, but then also, what can you take off of my plate so that I 392 - > can improve the business on my end?
393 - > If we can do that, we can support your role.
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