Rewiring Leadership: Gene’s Journey of Vertical Growth

Speaker A: Hi and welcome to the Human side of Business podcast. I'm Angie Cabe, CEO and co founder of Intuitive Performance. I'm a performance coach, HR professional, whole person leadership facilitator and your host. The Human side of Business podcast is fueled by the genuine curiosity to understand how personal characteristics and skills can be leveraged to drive individual and team performance, tangible outcomes and ultimately organizational success within business. Each podcast is devoted to sharing knowledge, expanding our learning edges and exploring the trends in corporate culture towards growing the emotional intelligence of organizations. I'm so glad you're here. Hi and welcome to the Human side of Business podcast. I'm Ange McCabe, CEO and co founder of Intuitive Performance. I am a performance coach, HR professional

Speaker B: facilitator and your host.

Speaker A: The Human side of Business podcast is fueled by the genuine curiosity to understand how personal characteristics and skills can be leveraged to drive individual and team performance, tangible outcomes and ultimately organizational success within business. Each podcast is devoted to sharing knowledge, expanding our learning edges and exploring the trends in corporate culture towards growing the emotional intelligence of organizations. I'm so glad you're here.

Speaker B: Hi everyone and welcome back to the Human side of Business. I'm your host Ange McCabe and today we're diving into something close to my heart and probably yours too. If you're here with us. What it really means to grow as a leader not just in skills, but in how we see, think and show up. This isn't about titles or checklists, it's about evolving our internal leadership operating system to better navigate complexity, hold space for others and lead with intention. Joining me today are three incredible humans who bring depth, insight and lived experience to this conversation. Firstly, we have Mel who's sliding into the co host seat to help frame today's episode with some powerful context. Mel is a former executive leader. Now as the founder of Elevate Performance and co founder of MAP or map. Mel works as a team and leadership coach to organizations and as well as consulting and advising related to best practices in the areas of leadership development and team performance. Mel holds an mba, works as a certified professional coach, team coach and as a mentor coach and coaching supervisor for other coaches. So Mel is all about coaching. She often brings her neuro leadership training into client work to support sustainable behavioral changes. So glad to have you here Mel.

Speaker C: Thank you. Excited to be here.

Speaker B: We're also joined here today by Claire. Claire Williams is an executive coach, writer and speaker on a mission to merge the profound and the practical. She's developed thousands of leaders from managers to the C suite in Dozens of organizations across five continents, including Target, McDonald's and Marriott. Claire's Superpower is making transformational concepts. I love the superpower concept, uh, like vertical development and the Enneagram, digestible and actionable for leaders and teams. So. Claire also holds a master's in organization development and change, as well as a graduate certificate in executive coaching. She's a professional certified coach or PCC through the International Coaching Federation. So glad you're here, Claire.

Speaker D: Thanks for having me.

Speaker B: Glad to be in the conversation and our Spotlight guest. Uh, Jean Hong Kong is a design leader, business advisor, and mentor with over two decades of experience. He currently leads product design, strategy, trend and concept and an art studio at America's favorite retailer, a Fortune 40 company with a global perspective. Gene has worked with industry leaders, co founded retail startups, and, uh, mentored entrepreneurs. He spent four years in Seoul driving innovation and speed to market with some of the world's largest apparel manufacturers. Now, alongside his corporate leadership role, he is launching Aperture North, a venture dedicated to helping entrepreneurs and organizations unlock, um, the designer's mindset. By blending the art and science of creativity, strategy and leadership. Through mentoring, advising, and speaking engagements, he empowers leaders to elevate their strategic impact, achievement, oathized results, and build thriving leadership cultures. Welcome, Dean.

Speaker E: Thank you. Excited to be here as well.

Speaker B: So, Mel, do you want to queue us up and give us a little bit of a background on how we came about mustering up this, uh, incredible team to talk about, uh, leadership growth?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker E: Thanks.

Speaker C: Angelic. So this episode actually came out of a conversation that you and I had about something called vertical development. And it's this field that explores how we keep growing, going long after we've hit adulthood. And we're talking about the fact that we often seem to think of development as something that happens in childhood and then it stops. But really, adulthood is also full of stages too. And sometimes they're just more subtle. They're not always physical changes, although there are some that happen in adulthood as well. But a lot of times they're internal shifts, right? They're how we make meaning and how we hold multiple perspectives and how we relate to complexity and to uncertainty. And that conversation really sparked something as you and I were exploring it, and we, you know, we began wondering, what does this look like in real leadership, not just in theory, and how do people actually evolve through these stages and how does it show up and how they lead? And so I reached out to my coaching network and asked, like, who knows a lot about this stuff? And who are you working with that's really leading, leaning into this. And Claire knows a lot about this stuff. And so she reached out to me and started to tell me about her work with Jean and it just felt like a really perfect story to bring to life to the podcast. So I think we should welcome Claire and Jean into the conversation.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And Claire, maybe you can kick us off. So how did you and Jean first connect to help our listeners unfold the story a little bit further?

Speaker D: Yeah, well, actually I also worked at America's favorite retailer that Gene still works at now. So I was in leadership development and that company. And Gene actually was a participant in a, uh, program that I led and we connected during and after the program. And then when I left that retailer, uh, Gene and I kind of stayed in touch. And a few years later he reached out about a possible coaching relationship. So that's where it started.

Speaker B: That's fantastic. And Gene, what was happening for you at that time? What made you be open to coaching with Claire or seeking something different within your leadership growth development path?

Speaker E: Right, Yeah, I mean, I think the way I would answer that question is, you know, I've kind of this balance of always hungering and curious to learn more and get better tied to this feeling that I may or may not be exactly the right type of. You fill in the blank to be in that position. Right. So call it a chip on your shoulder maybe. Right. And so I had jets come off of a few other things that I've done. I did a certificate program at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, another leadership program somewhere else. And um, it just needed more, more one on one because I was starting to hit certain roadblocks where I was unable to fully understand what I needed to do or change necessarily. And I was relying a lot on lived experience and intuition. But I needed a better framework to kind of break that back down and incorporate it into, uh, just kind of who I am and to understand where the intersections are there and what I could lean into and use what I could basically not use essentially or throw away. And also to kind of unlock the different little moments of feedback that I might have gotten through other, whether it's like a 360 feedback report or things like that and try to kind of go back and really understand and unpack what that meant. And so ultimately I think I really needed somebody one on one to help me walk through that and look at that. And Claire had always been somebody that was in my mind because of the experiences we had before.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: That's fantastic.

Speaker C: And Claire, I'M curious, like, what did you notice in those early sessions?

Speaker D: I remember it well. I remember when I first met Gene, even before we officially signed a coaching contract and we were just having exploratory conversations. One of my first thoughts was, wow, this guy is hungry for growth. And what was really intriguing was the way Gene, you, you even teed up. The request for coaching was not uh, as a problem that you needed to solve and so you were seeking a coach to help you solve that problem. Um, it wasn't even like a really clear question or conundrum that you seem to be wrestling with. It was truly this really expansive hunger for I want to understand myself better. Um, I know I have opportunities. These are the ones I'm aware of and I've been working on. But what might I not be seeing that, uh, you know, doing a 360, um, kind of doing some more uncovering of the layers of myself and my leadership could show me and I, we can unpack this more. But I remember even having a little bit of a wondering early on of is this a kind of a hyper achiever situation that like you've accomplished so much and you are now uh, kind of hungry for the next big challenge, but you're not even sure what that is. And so like I want more and more and more growth which, uh, guilty as charged. Like that's a problem I find in myself kind of based on my personality wiring is almost like growth just for growth's sake. Um, so I remember wondering that about you early on. Um, and you know, I'll give away the joke and we'll get to this, but that was not what was going on. Like it was a genuine open, um, ended curiosity without a goal in mind. And that was actually pretty unusual in terms of how a client often comes to me.

Speaker B: I, I would agree with that.

Speaker C: Mel.

Speaker B: Uh, what do you think?

Speaker C: Yeah, totally.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker E: Yeah, totally.

Speaker B: And so as you're working with Clair Jean, what did you see, I guess initially as an original shift for you?

Speaker E: Yeah, you know, I think it, it's interesting, Claire. I'm it. I'm obviously hearing this for the first time, kind of like what was going on in your head. And it's, I think it's really lovely and fascinating. Um, and I think it just goes back to like, for me, like I have always felt like there are these man made structures and walls and lanes and things that people have to create in order to have enough order and to process and to vet and to ensure this person's right here and this person's right here. And this person is high potential, whatever that structure may be. And so for me, I think the biggest thing I started to learn was the more self awareness I had and the more ability to kind of unpack that, whether it's through the lens of emotional intelligence or um, kind of framing it against kind of the typical corporate kind of feedback loop that is occurs usually or whatnot. Um, so for me that the beginning, it was really about reinforcing. How do I really be honest with myself and see and look at the things that I do both kind of instinctively and naturally and learned and really try to understand how can I kind of mold and shape who I need to evolve into that is as deeply rooted in my authentic self as possible. M. And almost to the point where I, I realized I'm never going to be like person A or B. And so when I think about that, it all comes back to this idea of how do I make my differences the difference maker or how do I make my differences the reason that I make a difference? Right. So just kind of that kind of concept is really what I started to realize. Because the thing is, some of the things that I get feedback on, I'm like, well some of that's rooted in my cultural background and my natural kind of, you know who I am. So I don't how much of that do I fundamentally change or not? Right. And so, and then some of those differences are kind of in structure there because the majority of the way things work 10 years ago, five years ago, yesteryear, whatever it might be, are, are what's working. But in order for me to actually grow and thrive, my belief was there's only a limit to how much of that I can um, change myself to. And really my advantage is amplifying away kind of in a positive way. My difference is to make a difference. M and that is something that I thought was going to be relatable to other people that look at leadership journeys or look at growth. Like this ultimately really complex Rubik's Cube that they don't know how to solve.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker E: And really at the core of that Rubik's Cube for me is knowing myself as much as possible and having faith in that.

Speaker C: What I love about Gene, what you're sharing there is, and I know that Ang and Claire, this will resonate with them as coaches, is so much of the work we do is about the inner game of leadership, like who it is, how you show up as a leader. And Claire, I'm curious, like, how did you help Gene like harness that appetite. He had to actually create the space for what we all know is. That's like a deeper level kind of reflection. Um, right. That we used to do.

Speaker B: How did you do that?

Speaker D: Right. Well, I often start a coaching engagement with one, maybe two insight generating assessments. It might be a 360 or some sort of personality test. Um, because I do think having a new angle on self, uh, new information or just kind of a new framing for our understanding of ourselves can be a helpful jumping off point that we can then kind of sink deeper into. And what I love that happened between Gene and myself was, you know, I said, hey, you know, we could do the Enneagram, which is a really profound kind of consciousness raising personality system that I use in a lot of my coaching. Um, and. Or you know, we could do something called the leadership circle, which is a really wonderful, uh, 360, um, that also is about expanding consciousness, um, and kind of changing leadership behavior from the inside out. Um, and. Or you know, there's this thing called the vertical mindset indicator that I was using at the time, um, to, to look at your level of development as a leader and where are you? And I was like, so does one of those sound interesting? And Gene was like, how about all three? Um, I was like are you sure? That's a lot, that's a lot of data to take in. But we ended up spacing them out so we didn't do it all at once. Um, and we can talk more about that. I know as we go into some of our other topics today, about one of those assessments in particular I think was really profound for you, Gene. Um, but I think that gave us new, um, language and new questions to ask about where you were in your leadership journey and all the things that you had come that were kind of like come to coaching with that were of swirling. Like I want to make a deeper impact and I want to do that in a way that is leveraging my differences, um, and using the profound giftedness that each of us only uniquely has. And how do I do that for myself? And I think all of this, uh, framing that the insights from assessments gave us maybe helped you go down that path a little deeper than you could have gone on your own. So what do, what do you think? Do you agree with that, Gene? What do you remember about the assessments?

Speaker E: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think sometimes the importance of vocabulary or vernacular or language is so critical. Right. Like, you know, even in the design world too, we're very intentional with our choices of a color or A word or a phrase. So I think one of the other key unlocks was understanding multiple types of frameworks that can help me create the right verbal acumen around how to translate something that might be written in a structured, like, kind of like format into and connected to something that I'm feeling and kind of finding the words that work there that then can be also then scaled. Meaning, like, then I can understand how that needs to be contextualized for another peer of mine or a leader or some of those things. So I think that was one of the things that I recall is as I really looked at the various assessments, really try to triangulate almost, this one was saying, this one is saying this, this one is saying, I'm like this. How do those things intersect? And then what is the actual thing that I could actually take control of in terms of a narrative and a positioning and a brand and who I am and how I show up and then how do I take advantage of those and then. And also where are my weaknesses and how do I control and manage my energy around those to show up when I need to amplify it in that moment when I know that's the moment that someone else might perceive that I'll just amplify in that moment. But I won't show up that way 100% of the time because it's also not exactly who I am.

Speaker B: Right. And I want to notice something. And then I have a question, Gene. What I'm noticing already, um, for our audience, and I think that it's obvious to Claire, your, your former coach and Mal, as a coach, you have really taken the lead in accountability of how you are growing yourself as an individual and a leader, which I think is chef's kiss, because oftentimes what can happen in the workplace, especially in leadership, is we're looking to fit within that quote, unquote container.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: And from a design perspective, Jean, I think it's so interesting that it almost seems like you're taking practical tools that you've used in your daily job and applied it to your own leadership, ah, growth path or pattern and wanting to put it out there to everyone. When it comes to leadership, yes, sometimes we can be confined to what, um, skills, growth we can have within organizations. But ultimately, at the end of the day, it's our responsibility to understand ourselves as a leader. And therefore how can we create or evolve for positive impact in. In leadership itself. The question that I have that's, that's kind of circling around because we've talked about, um, skill building and vertical development. Can we unpack for our listeners what is the concept like in plain language when it comes to vertical development? Mel, if you want to head this one up.

Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. And then, and I'd love Claire to add in after I'm done, is, I think a really simple way to think about it, is it's about transforming how we think. And you can actually hear Jean, like, demonstrating it even as we're talking, because it's about evolving our ability, our com. Our mental capacity and complexity to handle increasingly complicated situations and challenges. So it's really about how do we develop and strengthen the ways that we understand ourselves. And you can hear that he's talking about how he used the different assessments and the coaching conversations. But also then how does that change how we show up in conversation and in interactions with other people? Um, and just in the systems around us as well. Like Claire, what would you add to it?

Speaker D: Yeah, well, the term vertical development is often used and held up against its counterpart, which is horizontal development. And horizontal development is the kind of development that we often, uh, default to when we're thinking about leadership growth. So it's growing our knowledge, growing our skills. And we do that through things like, um, you know, taking a class or, or even, you know, maybe getting a coach at times or going through a program or reading a book or even having on the job experiences that stretch us and, and force us to learn new skills. So that's horizontal development, vertical development. We're doing it all the time. We're just not always talking about it or intentionally engaging it as a process. But rather than growing what we know, it's growing how we think and not doing that in a kind of random, haphazard way. But, uh, it reveals to us this very predictable set of progressive development stages that adults go through. Just like Mel said earlier, we know this about kids. Most of us don't really know this about adults that we can, uh, kind of predict. You know, if you're here in your development now, this is what might emerge next. Um, and as coaches, then we can start to kind of work with our clients through either an assessment like I did with Gene, or even just kind of listening and asking questions. You know, where is this person on their journey? Where have they been? And what, what are they wrestling with? And that's a big clue to where they are in their development path and what kind of coaching might serve them best right now.

Speaker B: And Jean, leaning into this a little bit further, how would you describe what Mal and Claire has encapsulated around Vertical development in a moment where maybe you had to unlearn a leadership belief or challenge the same.

Speaker E: Yeah, um, maybe I'll start that with a little bit of like a story very quick. So, you know, within the organization I work at, people are obviously broken into a hierarchy and at various levels. And there's always some sort of almost like a paywall. Right. Like you don't know what's happening at that next room. You wish you knew. You think those people in that room have something magical or special that they know or that they're talking about. And the realities are very different from that. And I remember the first time I officially became a leader, so to speak, at a corporate, uh, the first thing I noticed and I told uh, somebody else who was like, what is it like? What is it like?

Speaker D: Like.

Speaker E: Well, the first thing you're going to notice is get ready for nobody to ever ask you how you're doing anymore. And even like it was kind of to be, try to be an attempt at being funny. But we put all this effort into development and engagement and then once you had a level where you're expected to lead, it kind of stalls out or it's really just up to you at that point. There isn't as much programming there. And so that first six to eight months of that, there's a lot of unlearning happening.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker E: In order to be successful. Right. So let's just say going from senior to director in that sense. And so I have to go through a whole ton of stuff. One of them, the most, the biggest elephant in the room is essentially like imposter syndrome. Right. It's like, um, I went from being a part of the, the group and now I've been elevated and now people are looking at me not like, oh, what else do you want to learn? They're like, what can you do for me? What, I need this, I need a promotion, I need that, I need guidance. And so you're in there and then all of a sudden you're stuck in this mindset of I got here because of X Skill Set. But in order to do this well, if I, um, hold on to X Skill Set that got me here too tightly, I'm going to completely miss the boat on how to develop as a leader because I'm going to essentially go back to the things I'm good at as an executioner or a contributor. And I need to understand how to unlearn that comfort of that and translate that into things that are now going to be able to be worked through the people I need. And so that is probably the first big milestone moment and it's a tough one. And I've seen people that fail at it and miserably find themselves in a miserable state because they haven't understood that transition. And so that is to my. Just to kind of give it at a high level, that time frame of a new leader going from usually kind of a rock star contributor individual to leading a team. That is where probably the biggest chunk of unlearning from a structural and mindset perspective needs to happen. You have to build new scaffolding to create a different bridge and figure out a way to translate some of that mind space and expertise into things that you will have to relearn or unlearn to learn some something new.

Speaker C: Mhm. Mhm.

Speaker B: And if it's okay to probe a little bit further, Gene, when you're saying to relearn or unlearn and building different scaffolding for a new bridge, what would be the top three things that you felt that you had to accomplish to really go from being an a player, peer, contributor to leading the team?

Speaker E: Yep. I would say the most important thing is finding a way in yourself to humble yourself. Um, try to let go of the fear of looking like you're not supposed to be there or looking like you don't have the answer because you're not. You really shouldn't have the answer necessarily. So the first thing is I think based in internal humility. Um, and then I'm always kind of a person that likes triangles and triangulation. So that's like the, the interpersonal piece, right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker E: Then you have to right away get tactical and strategic and understand what are some of the fundamental things. So I always like to say part of my, a big chunk of my job is people, product and process.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker E: Out of those three things, I may not be perfect on every single one, but which of those am I? Usually it's two of three for most people, I would say some people are very process orientated and they're very into the product design, let's say. Or they're people orientated and they're into process or you know, so usually it's kind of like that. Right. So then you got to understand what that is and quickly try to figure out a roadmap for yourself. And then what do I need to do and activate and learn now quickly. Right. So that's tactical, you know, and so there's that. And then the third piece, in my opinion is really about now how do I Establish my own leadership vision and point of view. And that is where I think you can really draw upon what got you successful up to that point. And also you really want to draw upon who led you that you really loved or got inspired by or learned from, and quickly start developing a point of view around what leadership actually should mean for yourself, because that's going to be critically important both up, down and across. And so, um, I would think those are kind of three things that I think if I were to give someone advice now, I'd be like, look for those, you know, because it is tough, man, when you're coming in there and you're expected to have all the answers, you're expected to be that person. And you're like, I'm not even sure. I'm through the beginning stages of just understanding why, how I got here.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still, still digesting or, or reflecting. Absolutely. Based on the. The top three learnings that you had for yourself to elevate yourself as a leader, how do you lead differently now?

Speaker E: It's an interesting place to be, I feel, because, like, what I just shared with you happened five plus years ago. M. Um, where I'm at now. I think I'll start with this, like, in my belief, you know, leadership isn't about having the answers right. It's about creating an environment for your team to discover the best answers. And so for me, I've let go of a lot of ego number one there. I. Because I'm fully aware that there's going to be certain things I'm going to be really great at for the team that's literally coming from me to them and telling them, hey, try this, do that. But there's going to be so much actually more that I learned from that. And it's almost counterintuitive. When you're in this position, you think you need to come with everything. And the reality is you have to be the steward of the environment and create spaces for other people to feel good about coming to you with their ideas, their answers, as well as their questions. So, um, the big thing is now I'm less afraid of making a mistake. I'm less afraid of looking like I'm not the person I should be in that seat. So that's one of the bigger things that just feel very freeing, um, to a point where I will come into meetings with my team and tell them, hey, I just had a really rough fill in the blank and I'm not here kind of in the right way. But I want you guys to know that and I'm going to do my absolute best. So I think again, like that ties to this sensibility of being able to be authentic and vulnerable is so powerful for. Because it gives the permission for the others to also then show up. That. So that's definitely something that I am, I've leaned into fully as a leader, you know, um, and so that kind of is probably my foundational baseline for everything, is to try to be as authentic, transparent, um, and real as possible and then essentially be as present and so that I can help in my own way coach my team to be the best versions of themselves and fulfill their potential. Um, and you know, kind of get to a point where they really don't need me that much. Like in terms of the day to day. I think that's the goal. That's the way I try to approach the leadership piece now where I do come in and really still like to hold onto is when we're having a lot of fun and ideating for the future because I think that's a big piece of leadership, is not keeping the lights on right now, but being able to create the architecture to remodel the entire house before we know we're going to have the money and the means to do it. And so those are the moments that I need to really show up, um, both in action in what I say and how my presence and all of those things and to kind of be able to do that. Because that's really. I think I say this. A lot of people want to be so rooted in thinking and looking in the past, their future. And so I'm always like, we need a balance. We obviously need to look in the path, but leaders need to create the future. And so for me, if I think everyone's going right, we have to figure out a way to go left a little bit here. And that's my responsibility to always try to create that environment, poke in the right ways in my conversations to kind of make that happen or support that happening.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And you're saying so many things that could be unpacked. Like I definitely could spend hours with Eugene. What, What I'm.

Speaker D: I got to spend hours with him just. Just saying.

Speaker B: Envious.

Speaker E: Envious.

Speaker A: Claire.

Speaker B: Um, and Jean, what I'm super to understand is you said this word freedom. When I was able to let go basically of ego or having to be correct or doing the right things all the time, I was free.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker B: How did that transpire in the sense of your leadership style and its impact with your team?

Speaker E: Yeah. Um, now this Is obviously my version of this story from my perspective and I hope it's. That's fair assessment of how other people feel as well. But I'd like to think it at the very basic level created an environment of trust and m. Psychological safety and the ability for especially some of my most senior people to come to me like, Gene, you kind of messed that one up. We need to talk about. I'm like, absolutely, let's go, let's talk about. But like it creates this opportunity where it's a safe space to have real conversations and real transparency.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker E: It's also a space for people to come in and make mistakes. Um, I love. It's like I don't want my team to wait for me to say or dictate and then they're like, yes, I like that. Let's go that way. I'd much rather be like, they're like, no, we need to go this way. And I can't. I can ask them questions. And yeah, they like. I'm like, okay, I'm in, let's go, let's go that way. You know, and so empowerment. I mean again, like I, they're, they're. I hate to kind of go into that cliche direction, but it's. A lot of it is rooted in some of those things because they're so fundamentally basic for us to be happy, free human beings. And in a lot of ways I think whichever environment you're in, small business, medium size, large organization, we're just kind of recreating. I remember when I was in elementary school and we did this game called Town where they let the kids create businesses and you kind of had the Friday where you would. Some people sell brownies, some people rented movies to people and created these little businesses and would make money. And I feel like in a lot of ways we're just recreating these structures that are man made. Different levels of scale and organization. And ultimately again, I might be diverging a little, but the best leaders I've met, I feel like, are the ones that become the people that break the matrix somehow. Like they break it but they still uh, they're breaking it to reframe the future of the organization and they're able to break it in a way that's not so broken or so chaotic that it brings people along.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, it sounds like again, it comes back to that thought process or that singular word that you use, balance. And what I'm trying to wrap my mind around, as I'm sure a lot of our listeners out there Especially in fast paced industries that are innovative or highly competitive, where do you jostle with or find the balance of putting out the day to day fires and then also kind of quote unquote, breaking that mold enough, um, for positive future, I guess, visionary leadership change.

Speaker E: Yeah. And I think, Claire, you and I might have touched on this in the past, but I always go back to. You're right about the balance piece. I'm looking at things from the balance of art and science. I'm also looking at things from the balance of order and chaos. And basically, and what I mean by that really is it's my job. So depending. So startup businesses, right, more chaotic than orderly, Big enterprises, more orderly than chaotic. So there's different roles to play with, both in order to kind of keep them moving in the right direction. And so I usually like to think of it in those terms. So for example, if my team is feeling complacent, uninspired, or they're feeling that they're stuck, that makes me think like we're getting too pulled into the order of the processes, the order of the delivery dates, the order of the meeting cadence, the order, what, you name it. Then I'm like, okay, then it's my job to create a little bit of an imbalance in the moment, to rebalance it by interjecting what I would say would be kind of chaos. But that's intentionally meant to sound a bit worse than it is because it could literally be like, okay, we need to get out into the market and walk and do like a comp shop, meaning go into the market, see some stores. I just need to ensure that when people are getting one direct, one overbalanced or over, the pendulum swings. I want to bring it back to balance. Or the other way, if it's too chaotic, I need to come back. Okay, let's get down to what we need to get done and be a bit more strategic. And the reason I say that is to me, the beauty of life and of humanity is when the balance of the order and chaos are so perfectly intentioned that it creates almost like a vibration or an energy. And that to me is where movement happens, right, or passion occurs or innovation happens and stuff. And so that's what I'm always trying to kind of like in the present moment, think about and, and, and refine my radar and my instinct to kind of sense those things.

Speaker C: I love hearing you talk about your leadership journey and uh, I could recognize parts of it for myself. And Claire, I'm curious, like, in your experience, what are the, what Are the patterns in leaders like that you see who are ready to grow like this?

Speaker D: Yeah, well, and as I answer that, I just want to really shine a light on how everything you just heard from Gene is. It's like um, it's like listening to vertical development kind of in action. Right? It really is.

Speaker C: I could hear it.

Speaker D: Mel and I have been through some trainings about vertical development together. And you can hear in the way that Gene thinks, not just his acting, um, you know, like his leadership behaviors and decisions and choices, but also the way that he thinks and makes meaning and holds tension. Like all of that is um, kind of evidence that he has moved through quite a few of these vertical development stage shifts. And I could sense when I met Gene, uh, you know, within a few, within a few of our coaching conversations, like, oh wow, there's some pretty complex things going on here. This is not just like I want to achieve and grow more for the sake of doing that. Because that would be at a very common, ah, vertical development stage called the achiever stage. And what I could really hear as our conversations went further and even he did the assessment, um, to accurately kind of pinpoint his vertical stage was there was something beyond just achieving that he was starting to crave. Um, it was like more and more impact and seeing um, different perspectives and navigating complex landscapes and leading people through that and kind of cutting through the chaos to bring order but not being afraid of the chaos. Um, and it's like Gene, it's been several years since we worked together and you've only deepened your skills and capacities in those areas. Um, but to get back to your question, Mel, of like how do, how as a coach might I know that someone's ready for that kind of development? Um, I would say if there's a hunger for growth or even a. And this is, this is true. And I think most people who seek out coaching that there's some sort of a hunger for something to be different.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker D: Um, it's more about for me as a coach listening to is that thing that they want to be different. Can it be solved by horizontal development? Can it be like, read this book, apply these principles, here's your three step feedback model so you can go give courageous feedback to people. That's all excellent, um, horizontal development work. But I know someone is really, um, it's not even that they want vertical development. It's like vertical development wants them. It's like crying out to emerge and turn and unfold into something different within them. There is something happening that's they can sense, but they can't quite put their finger on like the way I've been leading and making sense of the world and my role in it is just not fitting the demands of my context anymore. Something else is coming through, but I don't know how to facilitate that. And so that's, I think that's where vertical coaching, vertically informed coaching can really be powerful.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Mhm. That's great clarity. Uh, Claire. And when you're thinking about your journey, Gene, specifically, what is, I guess one thing or some things that you wish you'd known earlier?

Speaker E: It's a great question. There are, there's so many. In a lot of ways I'll keep it simple. The one thing I wish I knew that really would help give your, give every individual a sense of that, like freedom I was maybe alluding to is that there is not one mold to be a leader. And there's nothing that particularly special about leaders. And so only I, the reason I say that, and that's part of the reason why, as I got later into my career, I felt it was so important to be visible because I see this happen so often with the people that I mentor, whether it's internally at the company I work at or externally with other people, is how important it is to break the mold and to have visibility to people that relate to you or look like you or came from backgrounds that you came from. Because it's been so long that I think people have a certain mental image of what it is to be a leader or whatever that is. And I always feel like that's in itself. The challenge is to get over that or to understand that that's not really real, you know. And so that, that is probably what I would ground into to start with is to kind of um, I always say start with the past, go with possibilities, be someone that wants, you know, and so. And you can't imagine yourself being able to be um, deserving of or the possibility of and fill in the blank like in this position, like leadership opportunity, then you need to get to a place where you kind of figure out how to get there first. Because the reality is, um, there is nothing that special in my opinion about any of us in those roles. We're just human beings, we're trying our best, we're bringing in as much as we can. And quite often, most times I believe the amount of grounding work you've done in self awareness and understanding of yourself is going to pop through no matter how much you try to cover that up with like Pre written text or whatever, it's always going to creep through. And so, so yeah, that, that would be the first thing. Just, just make sure you don't believe everyone is like something that special. You're just like them. Just need a little time, a little finesse, you know.

Speaker B: Right. I like it too, Gene, in the sense that it's almost like we give this kind of um, uh, you know, when we're working with a doctor, for example, it's like that, that white coat syndrome, um, you know it's, it's that leadership syndrome that you're demystifying in the sense of we're all humans and we're all trying to do our best. And by the way, there's no such thing as just like a polished leader where a whole person and regardless of if you want it to spill over or not, is going to. So, um, you know, there's, I guess what I'm reading between the lines as well. There's a, um, not a hidden. But there should be an overt responsibility when we're in really leadership roles to really understand self, Self awareness, how we want to intentionally lead and then therefore act upon the same. Which I think is absolutely brilliant. The other thing that was coming up for me as you were speaking, Gene, is that as a leader it doesn't need to be consistently looked at as um, you know, a position of power, but rather it could be and ought to be a position of influence. So if you're a project manager, for example, to our listeners out there, that's a form of leadership. It doesn't mean that you need to lead people, but you're leading a project. So ultimately leadership comes into, I think what you're saying, Jean, in a nutshell, understanding yourself and using Claire's words in her bio, your superpowers and how can you harness that to help, um, the betterment of a project or other people or something outside of yourself. And that truly is kind of the crux of leadership.

Speaker E: Absolutely. If I could just add one note to them, like each individual should align. Is that even what they want to do? Um, and does it align to actually what your purpose is? You know, and I would say most human beings that are, you know, well intentioned, all are leaders just because, whether it's in your family or with your friends. And you know, and it's just about how much of that do you want to amplify into different types of scale? Um, and for me, as my personal journey along, that is. And Claire, you know, very intuitively saw this is m. A Big part of it is I really want to make some form of a positive impact in the world. Right. So that part of that purpose that I have puts me in a place in a mindset where I want to serve in that way and willingness to then be like, if I. If nobody else in this room wants to take on that responsibility, I will give it a shot and do my best. Right. And that, that is also that other click you need to kind of click into it.

Speaker C: I really appreciate that. Gene, like, the importance of as. As leaders having a vision, like, for what our leadership. What's our leadership about? What does it enable outside of us, like our. Our own ego, our own accomplishments. But what does it play to. That's a bigger game. What do you feel like you're still learning?

Speaker E: I think, um, a lot, really. One of the things that's a bit more evident within structure of organizations is kind of that elevated polish, um, the ability to really kind of understand every different room or platform or situation and kind of elevating it, elevating my presence and polish and how I'm saying things, um, in a way that really maximizes the impact without having to take up as much time, so to speak. That. That's one thing that I've. I've thought about. Um, so that's something I'm learning. Number two is honestly just the biggest thing I've learned over time is repetition. It's. It's reps, it's experience. So what I'm learning is finding ways to continuously challenge myself, whether it's a new project at work that I'm asked to take a leadership position on or a contribution position on. Everything that comes my way is an opportunity to refine my leadership perspective, to gain experience and ultimately to gain reps. You know, like, it's hard to be a leader just the way it's hard to be like a professional athlete if you've been sitting on a couch for six months. You know what I mean? Like, it's actually a physical game in a lot of ways. You want. The bigger the stage, the bigger the problem, the more I want to be in tune mentally, physically, emotionally, all of those things. So the. It's almost like you have to treat yourself in a way like an athlete might, in my mind, and have to kind of keep tweaking your machine, so to speak, to be the best you can at those moments. So I think I'm learning habits around that, um, you know, in terms of how do I keep defining that? Because there's only so far you get by Winging it so far, you get by the power of your own personality. And there is things you have to kind of be disciplined around. And so I think a lot of that is what's happening. And then constantly up. Leveling my acumen in terms of how do I translate my value to people in the language they need to hear. Because at different levels of organizations, whether it's entrepreneurs or kind of executives, if you haven't been in that room long enough, it's almost hard to articulate your impact in quick and concise ways to the language that they need to hear, not the language you want to speak it in. If that makes sense.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker C: It's not just about you.

Speaker E: Right.

Speaker C: It's about them too.

Speaker E: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Ah.

Speaker B: Adapting those communication styles. You said something that was extremely powerful, Gene, in the sense of leadership growth is really about reps and the habits that you're forming. What advice could you give to our listeners when they feel a bit stuck with regards to their leadership growth or being motivated to continue to do those reps? What would you offer them to be unstuck?

Speaker E: Yeah, I think hopefully they're not at the place where they've gone from being excited about being growth and learning and kind of gone to that place of being upset and jaded and in a bad mindset in terms of, like, I've been doing X, Y and Z what everyone told me to do, and none of it's working. Dah, dah. And now I'm in this place where I need to get myself out of that rabbit hole first. Right. You know, so like, hopefully, depending on where they are in the spectrum, I might tailor my counsel slightly differently. But ultimately I do think, um, people I would. The advice I would give is to be positive, to come with an energy where people are hopefully will take a chance on you and want to work with you. Because oftentimes in the work environment, leadership growth happens kind of in an unstructured way. You happen to be invited to a certain meeting, you happen to be invited to a conference with certain leaders, and your leader kind of instinctively picked you to come with them. And all of a sudden now you're in there, now you're talking to these other people and feeling good about maybe sharing your perspective. All of a sudden that turns it into a project, that project turns into something, and that turns into something. Right. So, uh, but that only starts when people want to actually work with you, if they feel your energy. So I think there's an energetic piece. The other thing, though, I would say is if you do happen to get lucky enough to do those things. Reflection is super important. What worked? What did I learn from that experience? Was it, uh, a new project on a strategy? What did I learn from it? What did I. What can I do better next time? And how can I wrap this up in a simple like, kind of like elevator statement that I can then now remind my leader that I just did this, you know, and the help is going to follow up later to be like, what was the roi? Right. So like some like tactically doing that and you stack up two or three of those over the course of a year and all of a sudden you have this amazing narrative of things you did beyond your core function that can speak to that. Right. So there's this idea of I'm always about balance, so there's the tactic, but then there's like that energy piece and the human piece that has to be there together, you know, so that, that's some of the advice I think I would give.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, can I say how much I love that you called out like the reflection piece.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker C: Meta leadership skill. Like if you can, if you can pause and notice and learn.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker C: Like that's huge. And then have that inform the action versus reacting.

Speaker E: Yeah. Because a lot of times I see that the issue is people do like stretch projects or this or that. No one remembers. It's your job to remember it and craft that as a part of the narrative moving forward. Because most other people unfortunately aren't the star of your movie. So they might be, uh, excited that you helped them in that moment for that project. But then they just move on as well. So it's really up to you to kind of feel how do you harness those moments. And a lot of times that's too also in my mind about how can we be as present in the moment as we can. You know, we're not just leaves floating in the corporate wind for me to land somewhere nice. You know what I mean?

Speaker B: You just land wherever we need to have intention. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this has been so powerful, um, in the sense of a conversation. We're lucky to have you here today. Jean, Claire and Mel. What's really stood out to me is that when it comes to elevating our leadership, the transformation doesn't always look like a big leap. You know, it could be 1% or it could be reflection and taking inventory and having an intentional direction. And also hearing from Gene. Sometimes it's quiet. We need to go within.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, but you know, managing the balance of day to day tactics and also celebrating the win that Jean shared with us around understanding what reps you have to do as a leader or ought to do to build your own skill set, as well as how to motivate yourself to continue to build those reps so that you are, you know, that quote unquote, athlete leader. Um, Gene, if you could leave us with one mantra or insight that you've gained from your leadership journey thus far, what would it be?

Speaker E: Um, I think the one that's on the tip of my mind most recently, um, is this idea that if we think about kind of like business success, leadership success, any of those things rooted in success, let's call it, that's the product that we're trying to build out, then to me, culture is the product. So culture is the product, meaning the culture of an organization and how you help define that or create that. Right? Or the culture of yourself and how it's tied to your authentic who you are. So to me, that has been the big thing for me, like as I've gotten in my journey, it's so important for me to be an architect of the culture. Mhm. Because the culture is the product that ultimately fuels the actual granular level of execution of what's in market, whatever. So to me, culture is the product. And to be kind of corny, it's the soil that excellence grows from.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Mhm. I think that's brilliant, not corny. And to our listeners, thank you for joining us for this special episode of the Human side of Business. We hope it's offered some insight, inspiration, or even just a moment to reflect on your own leadership journey. If today's conversation resonated, feel free to share it with a friend or colleague or leave us a review. Until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and lead with heart. Thank you everyone.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the Human side of Business podcast. I'm glad you could join us. If you enjoyed today's episode and want to stay updated with our latest content, make sure to visit our website. The link can be found in the episode description where you can subscribe to the podcast, sign up for our newsletter and learn more about our Whole Person Leadership services. Sounds interesting. Explore the Whole Person Leadership Cohort by Intuitive Performance, a unique program that offers unparalleled support to managers on every step of their leadership journey. Our, uh, program features evidence based assessments, workbooks, group coaching, and interactive learning experiences to help you level up your leadership skills.

Speaker B: Reach out today to apply to one of our upcoming cohorts.

Speaker A: Until next time, take care and stay curious. Thanks for listening to the Human side of Business podcast. I'm glad you could join us. If you enjoyed today's episode and want to stay updated with our latest content, make sure to visit our website. The link can be found in the episode description where you can subscribe to the podcast. Sign Up Sign up for our newsletter and learn more about our Whole Person Leadership Services. Sounds interesting. Explore the Whole Person Leadership Cohort by Intuitive Performance, a unique program that offers unparalleled support to managers on every step of their leadership journey. Our program features evidence based assessments, workbooks, group coaching, and interactive learning experiences to

Speaker B: help you level up your leadership skills. Reach out today to apply to one of our upcoming cohorts.

Speaker A: Until next time, take care and stay curious.