Authentic Leadership & Business Transformation: Penny McCormick's Journey at MyHealthChecked

Speaker A: Thank you for joining us today, Penny. It's really good to have you with us. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Speaker B: Me too.

Speaker A: So, first of all to get started, can you tell us a little bit about my health check, the organization that you lead, please?

Speaker B: Of course I can, Amy. It'd be my great pleasure. So my health check is a PLC. I started running my health check just over five years ago, November 2019. And we are really a team comprising um, a small team of executives, small management team and there's just nine of us. Um, and then we also have a really, really strong board. We've needed to navigate a lot of interesting space in the last few years. So we've got a really good diverse board that's brought us sort of a lot of experience and a lot of contacts and guidance over the last few years to get us into the position that we have. Um, what we do as a team, as a management team, um, is deliver a range of at home wellness tests to end users. And we do this primarily through retail. Um, so by at home tests. Our journey did start with COVID testing, um, and actually we were the first over the counter Covid PCR test available in boot. So we secured that piece of business which was from, fantastic and then from there we've built out a full portfolio of tests. Um, later on this year we've got some more tests coming um, but at the moment it's over 30 tests from lateral flow wellness tests through to uh, over the counter DNA tests, um, and also blood tests for end users, uh, that are available through ourselves and through some retailers with the main customer being boot. So we are headquartered in Cardiff which is where I am today. Um, but our team is remote, um, and yeah enjoyed in the last few years, bringing on a quite a young team actually of talent, um, and really seeing them grow over the last few years. And yeah we've done a lot.

Speaker A: It's been good, great story. And in terms of the challenges that you've had and your experience at the moment, I m can make assumptions based on the pace of change that you must have experienced. But tell us about what you've been up against and how you've overcome those

Speaker B: challenges within the market, within the market

Speaker A: and within the organisation. So as the leader of my health checks, I would imagine it was all hands to the pump at the start given, oh, crazy timing of you joining and then from there.

Speaker B: Yeah, so, so I, I joined actually a year before COVID here and um, you know, and I spent that first year I, I did, I Come into. I came in and took over a PLC that, that wasn't in a great place. We had some brilliant technology. It was focused around the fertility space, which was how come I came on board. Because my background was, was female health and diagnostics. I came up with feedback. Female health element actually spent some time really getting into the product, the business, the market, um, but ultimately then saw that there were challenges there. And however we tried to look at those, it was doable. But actually what we wanted to do as a board and what I wanted to bring in was that we really wanted to change our ah, trajectory to be a growth story. Um, and that then as, as I was recommending we move away purely from female health and look to expand this out into broader family wellness and health care. And this is where the opportunities are going. That's when Covid hit. So it turned out to be, it's really fortunate for us actually. We were a company that succeeded through Covid for sure. Um, but actually the challenges that that brought were huge. I mean, number one, a big career first for, you know, needing to change the direction of a business completely that had been running a long time before me and actually having to make that tough call that says actually we're going to move away from this. Number one. That was a biggie then in terms of the COVID business, we were lucky. My background's in retail, um, meant that actually we approached the COVID business via retailers and we looked at bringing a test to the space that understood consumers that things like instructions were going to be really, really important, bearing in mind that people were going to be doing something new for the first time. Not just end users, but also Boots. In this case it was a massive new requirement and everyone was doing things for the first time. And I think actually that tuning in to the customer need was what really gave us that, that win, that points of advantage. But suddenly, uh, off the back of that, we needed to supply at high volume into retail and that wasn't the business that we'd been. So that was fun.

Speaker A: Boots don't buy just 10 or 20 as a test case, do they?

Speaker B: No, no. And it is the old, uh, you know, go and go and get the win and then, and then make it happen. You know, that's how, that's how success, how success is built. You know, we must, you know, successful businesses aren't come from putting out big operational costs and then going out and trying to find the business. You've got to get that in first. So we needed to move really, really quickly and I looked back, it was funny, it was brilliant. But it was. It was tough. You know, it was really stressful. Suddenly I fast pace. You needed a supply chain, you needed to get a kit, um, and everything. Your time was of the essence. And companies, everyone else was shifting too. You know, people were going through their own Covid experience. And there were also, um, certainly around the test kit and testing space, there were big, big companies that were really snatching up the talent, you know. So we think back to Covid and, uh, people going on furlough and so on. But actually within the area we operated in, everyone was scaling up. So it was a great time for people that worked in that space. So trying to find people. Um, and actually we wanted. Sometimes we just needed some people for a short space of time to really help get us up and running. So that was one of the most challenging pieces. And it was actually that resourcing and getting everything going. Um, and then as the business grew then, and we needed. Actually we needed seniority and we wanted people to come and grow with our business. There was still, I think the recruitment space was really tough around that time. You know, it really. It really kept. People were retained in good roles through Covid that they wanted to stay in.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I suppose, um, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that you were going through that twofold because you've got an organization where you said you had to change the direction of the business. Those people that are part of that change are going through the whole Covid thing that happened outside of work for everybody as well. And the fear and all that noise that happened at that time. So how. How did you then create the vision so quickly to then articulate the vision to then get everybody on board with the vision? Was that something that was an intentional activity or did it just happen because of the team that you got in place or.

Speaker B: It was a bit of both. You know, I had some. Some core people I had, um, because we'd been going through this transition and actually as part of making the call on the business as was and saying actually we need to change direction, I had actually really fortunately brought in some good people that I'd worked with previously. So some people that I had a relationship with, you know, and that that matters in times of change and, um, you know, turbulence. So I had a couple of trusted lieutenants that were with us for a period that really helped with that and helped of steady the ship. But for me, on a personal level, you know, as a leader, that's important. You need, you need people that, you know, really got you back. Um, and then, yes, starting to bring new people on board. I think once you've got what teams are most looking for when they come on board, they want a plan, they want something solid, they want to know it's going somewhere. Unfortunately for us, it was boots. Very familiar to people. Um, you know, everyone knows boots. It was absolutely solid. So that was a huge help. Um, but again, yeah, I'll always come back to. In Covid, everyone was doing things the first time, whether it was the government, you know, getting a lot of criticism for it. But I'll always sort of caveat with, never done it before, you know, so we, so it was, it was tough all round. But yes, just bringing the team in, uh, really closely communicating with them, um, obviously remote working was brand new. I found that really hard. You know, I'm of the team generation that never, never did that. Um, we found that, you know, because of, we were trying to get things going quickly. Um, you know, I had to act in line with COVID But actually, yeah, it was saying to people what we are doing is Covid critical. So if you do want to come in, if you see value in actually being here, we can take the necessary precautions and we can look at doing that. So we gave people choice, uh, around what they did.

Speaker A: Great. And hats off to you though because you must have been like fire, fire, fire, fire and just roll the team together.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And it was, it, it was all hands on deck and you know, some you really, it really taught me the importance of whether people like change or not and how they respond to it and that working with ambiguity, which is, is always something that's important to me, I talk to my team about it a m lot. Funny enough, in my, in my last role at bbi, our review process, when you're sort of going through that twice yearly review and you're ranking one of them was around working with ambiguity. And it's always stuck with me as a really important point in, in work because if you've got a small business, you are working with ambiguity. Um, and a lot of the time, as I mentioned already, people want that strategy. Yeah, but you always have to communicate the look strategies are planned. M. But plans do change because markets change. So it's instilling in a team, you know, that things do change. Sometimes periods will be uncertain and you've just got to communicate that, um, as best you can. And I think with COVID you know, I needed to say to the team, everyone's Doing this for the first time. Yeah, every, we're all doing it and then I'd say your boots are doing it for the first time. So, so we'll, we'll just work through it. But it just, it threw up sort of constants. I remember, I remember another point I'll always come back to was that first it was the May bank holiday, um, in uh, where they, where people were allowed to travel and people had to do the tests to go traveling. And you know we'd, we were ready, we had our customer care team but it just went off the scale because of course a lot of people were coming out of lockdown period, very anxious. Then they were going on holiday and then they suddenly had to pay for these tests, do them. Um, so people were stressed. What if it's positive and I lose my holiday? What if this, what if that, what if the other. Um, and it just, it almost felt, not the system, but for us it almost crashed the system. I remember a uh, sort of 13 hour phone a thon from my house with me, you know, doing the customer care with my team because it, people were panicking like mad and they just needed to know when am I getting my result and is it going to be okay and am I, I've got to board my flight and you know, things like that. It was just sort of constant. And then it was a case of just coming back on a Monday or so Tuesday after the bank holiday and saying, right guys, you know, we, we covered it, uh, yeah, what can we do differently next time? And just, you know, it's just a constant, keep moving forward. It really helped me. I learned so much in those times that it was never, it could never be about why didn't we do this, what we should have done. Um, it was always new, it's new, it's new, it's new. What should we do differently next time? Constantly. It's been a huge help to me those times. It got some really good practices in place.

Speaker A: Besides, when you talk like that and you look back and you think it was a crazy time. It was nearly five years ago now, but it's absolutely crazy time.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: And I think when you talk about ambiguity and change, I think people often see attitudes to change as quite binary. Like you're either for change and you're running towards it, rubbing your hands together because you're excited by it, or you just don't like change and it makes you uncomfortable. But I think, I disagree. I don't think it is binary. I think if you can communicate like You've communicated. I think people can get comfortable with change and it can be like the ambiguity is a learning exercise, definitely.

Speaker B: And also people come into it at different times. And actually it's okay to go through a period of change constantly sort of saying, you know, I'm not sure, you know, that's okay. It's not a bad, it's not a sin. You know, if you think about the amount of times, certainly in my career, the amount of people I've met that I could honestly say, if you said, right, we're about to upend that and do this, the amount of people that would go, brilliant, bring it on, is actually really quite small. You know, it's, it's is quite small. And, and you are, you are going through a transition. And it's important, I think, as a leader, uh, to really, just really respect that. You know, if just because somebody's asking a lot of questions, it doesn't mean they're resisting change. It means there's someone who really likes to weigh it all up. And, you know, really, just sometimes those questions can actually be really helpful because they get you thinking in a different way. So I agree. I sort of, uh, for me, it's just a, it's something to think about how I may need to approach things with that person or need to do that a little bit differently. But actually having a floor of open communication where people are really comfortable asking questions, you know, sort of challenging on points, it's a good thing. But no, I completely agree with you. It isn't a binary. And you know, we're all, we're bottom line, outside of work, in our personal lives, we're all going to experience change in our lives, whether we're aware of it, uh, you know, some of those big things that will come in life or not, they will come and we'll deal with them differently.

Speaker A: Definitely, definitely. And I think some leaders as well, not to go too far off a tangent, but I was reading recently, someone was saying, don't think about the question that someone's asking. Think about why they're asking the question. And I think sometimes in leadership, some leaders, and I don't put you in this box for a second, but I think some leaders can be challenged by the questions and think that it's a challenge. And what, are they, uh, challenging my authority or are they questioning my decision? But I think sometimes the questions are a signal. And if you think about why that question has been asked and um, where it's coming from, that can sometimes be far more information than Just making an assumption. This person.

Speaker B: 100%. And I think it's. Yeah, it's certainly something that earlier in my career, I've. I've been guilty of that for sure. Um, but I think, you know, you learn through life, don't you? You get better at things and you. Sometimes you learn things the hard way. Um, but, yeah, I completely agree. I think it's. We need to. The ego can be an absolute bugger in leadership positions. It's there for all of us. And it's just, you know, always doing that thing of that. That isn't a thing coming to me. It's. Let me. Exactly where's it come from? 100%.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: What's behind that and how. And what's needed at this point in time? You know, what does this person need from the situation? But actually, what do we need? It may be that, um, you know, and it's just handling it that way. That person maybe needs some reassurance. But actually, the business requirement is that we are doing this. So that's what I'm going to need to be conveying. But I can then open the floor up to some questions or I can add a bit of flavor around it, for instance. It's just tuning into what the requirement is at that point.

Speaker A: Yeah. So. So your leadership journey, then, Penny, Was it. Was it intentional? Was this. Was this the end goal? Not that we're at the end, but was this the goal always? Or was it accidental?

Speaker B: Or when you say, was this the goal, is that leading a plc?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. To be in a senior leadership position?

Speaker B: No, no, it wasn't. I. I don't, um. No, it wasn't. I've. I've had, um. I've had a great career, uh, journey. I've been. I think I spent a lot of time m. Thinking, you know, I've been very lucky and, you know, I've had great opportunities, but actually, now I'm where I'm at and the age I'm at, and I look back and actually, um, I look at the decisions I've made along the way, and they've been really, really good ones. So that's been. An important part of my own personal journey is recognizing. Recognizing actually is. You know, back as a teenager, I was making active decisions that perhaps I didn't give myself credit for that have actually shaped how things have gone. I think I previously used to think maybe I sort of got carried along a bit, and as long as something was, uh, I was doing good work and enjoying it. But actually, I see now that's not the case and I have made really, really clear decisions. So for me it hasn't been the end goal. I think it's been about finding my niche. I, you know, marketing, I loved quite early on I, my first job from university I went, I went from journalism into public relations, but from public relations into marketing because I worked in a full service marketing agency and actually that more you know, because PR is hard yards. That's not why I came away from it. It was more that I really liked, you know, the mix and the commercial and what, what we could do to really help clients grow. And um, and from there I got into an in house role and then that took me to retail and then I, Things really changed for me in 2005 when I started working at uh, what was called BB International at the time. It's now gone on and become the BBI Group. But we were sort of, I think I was staff number 72 and I started working with a fantastic team of people in Cardiff, um, who were really great business people with a really entrepreneurial spirit. M. You know, my, the CEO at the time, Julian Baines, he now runs EKF Diagnostics which is a massive group. He sold BBI and went on to run ekf. Um, then Lynn Reese, who, Lynn's on my board now, Lynn was my marketing director, went on to be the CEO there. And we just, you know, I, I got this commercial bug because I started working with these brilliant leaders who just, we had this from the commercial perspective, just this great mindset of entrepreneurialism. You know, really selling your products well, building great relationships with customers and I just loved it. Uh, you know, and I started a period there for many years of, you know, but really, really happy times. And then the business changed direction and I no longer was part of that and no longer wished to be part of that because it changed. So from there, um, obviously by now I'd gone on at my time at BBI to become a managing director. Uh, that was something, you know, that I found that was challenging at the time. You know, I got opportunities came up and I took them. Um, but it was a huge step. Um, and you know, one that I learned a lot from both good and bad as we, as we do along, along the way. Um, you know, I certainly, when I look back at the kind of leader I was then and how I did things, um, I certainly, I wish I could apply some of what I do now. Um, perhaps. But all you can do is keep moving forward and just get, just getting better. Um, and Then for this role, you know, I was asked to, I was asked to come and run my health check. Um, it's called Concepta PLC at the time and run my health check. And it was just, I spent a lot of time thinking about it, uh, um, and um, and made the decision that, that yes, it was time for me, I could go and do this and I could have a really good crack at it. And I was the best place person to come in and really assess this. And if we were going to grow this small business into female healthcare success, that I was the best person I could think of for the job. And actually I should, I should go and do it. Um, so it's been more, um, it's been more sort of organic. You know, I've had the key sort of, you know, if you write it on my headstone, it would be she took the opportunities that came her way. Um, they have been carefully considered. Um, but it's been much more. It's grown. I've grown, I've made choices that I've then loved. Mhm. And then by loving it, you get better.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then you get better and you love it more. And you know, you, and you, you come through the tough times. You know this, gosh, this role's been really tough at times, uh, over the years. Um, but you get better and I love that, I love that, ah, that continuous learning, um, that we're just getting, we're just getting better all the time. We still make mistakes. Uh, absolutely. I have days and I go home and think, not m my best day. Yeah, not my best day. But so no, it wasn't, I didn't set out with this end goal. Um, I think I set out to do great work to the best of my abilities. But it didn't come from. I was never that person that uh, that had that clear roadmap ahead of me that I wanted to uh, deliver.

Speaker A: Thinking about coming home and going wasn't my best day. But conversely, if you did come home every day and go absolutely nailed that, I nailed that every day, you wouldn't be in the right role either. Because it takes that humility and that self reflection, doesn't it?

Speaker B: To definitely. And also it's, you know, there's no challenge with that. You know, that's just pure comfort, isn't it? And that, you know, that that doesn't help anybody. You know, there's always, you know, I love that, uh, I love the dynamic of businesses that they keep, you know, keep moving forward. I'm a real, you know, I did. I read. I read once, you know, I think probably many, many years ago, reading a book about, I don't know, probably feeling anxious and worried and those sorts of things. And it said, you know, life, just keep. Just keep moving forward. One foot in front of the other, just keep moving forward. And that I love. I just love that. Uh, just keep it. It may be a slow walk some days, may even be a little bit of a limp. Just keep going forward.

Speaker A: Keep.

Speaker B: And that's just sort of really helpful to me. Just keep. Keep it going. And if you're coming home with. Gosh, if you were coming home every day, I just don't think you would come home every day and go, I smashed it. Because what are you. What are you. What's that, uh, challenge that you're getting daily if it's just so comfortable? Yeah, it's just. It's, um. Yeah, plodding. Not. Not for me.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, it makes me pull that face, too. But I think you also said something about, I wish I could go back and apply some of the things that I do now back then, but that's also a positive thing, because if you didn't say that, you would have grown. And I think, uh, a question that I always really like asking is if there was a piece of advice you could go back and give yourself earlier, uh, in your career, what would it be?

Speaker B: Um. Oh, gosh, it's, um. I think it. I think it would be. This is twofold. I think the first element is what we were talking about earlier, which is, you know, the person you're dealing with. You know, that if. If there's a challenge that comes, it's not necessarily your issue. So that, that would be a big one and just navigating all of that, and then the other one would just be simply, you know, just back yourself and, you know, remember that you've been employed for what you bring and, you know, go with that, you know, stick. That's going to involve. Make the decision, uh, make the decision. We don't have crystal balls. You make it, make it and go with it. And sometimes you may need to turn around and say, with the benefit of hindsight, I may have done that differently. But that's what we're here for. We're here to make the best calls with the tools that we've got, take the best courses of action with the tools that we've got. And I think I probably used to be a bit maybe too concerned with what if it goes wrong. Okay, so it's that, uh, a Little bit of fearlessness that very different to recklessness but a bit of that, but just bravery back yourself and um, whatever. Again, hindsight's a wonderful thing because I've been here that actually it may not always go according to plan but you'll saddle back up and you'll have another look at it and go that way. So I think that's. But again that's all tied up with confidence and years experience under your belt, isn't it? So you know, go thinking, oh well I wish I'd had that, you know, wisdom at 25. You know it's just I'm sure some people have, I'm sure they're out there somewhere probably going home every day going, I've smashed it today. But, but I bet, I bet if

Speaker A: they are 25 feeling like that by the time they get to in their 40s or their 50s, they're probably going to be thinking the same thing anyway.

Speaker B: Yes, I think so. But yeah, they'd probably be mine. Is that uh, understanding that you know, firstly about yourself, make the decisions, work with what you've got. Um, and then secondly. Uh, yeah, is just that those relationship pieces and remember it's, you know I think I used to that placing expectations on yourself constantly as a leader. I think there's a lot of a million and one leadership books out there and I think they put an awful lot of pressure on, on people they can do and actually you know it's, it's being in tune with yourself, isn't it? Uh really having a great level of self awareness and using that as best you can.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And trying to instill that in the team that's around you as well. If they have that level of self awareness, definitely that's a game changer.

Speaker B: Yes, agree.

Speaker A: And, and so your leadership style then where does it come from? Are there leaders that have influenced you in the past?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I've had. Yeah. So in my last role I worked with some really, really good people. Um, you know, and that you know, very confident around plans and decisions that were being made. Um, we were quite good at ah, communicating when I joined that organization. There would be really good company updates and it would share ah, to a really good level financial information, um, and um, really help people understand the direction of travel. That was an important one for me. I think that's really key and obviously you have to temper sometimes what you can and can't say. But that communication piece I think is really, really important. Um, but I had you know in my last organization I mentioned Lin Lyn was someone who gave me really good opportunities. He employed good people, he let people get on with it. Um, you know, really empowered people to crack on and sort of, you know, rise as high up as they wanted to go. Um, you know, and I can see there's a good cohort that was, are still in touch, you know, and have still you. You build that trusted network. And I think that's always quite a good indicator, um, of when something's gone well. Um, I think somebody else I learn a lot from is one of my board members now is Amber. So Amber Voodagel is, um, is on my board. And Amber, Amber created one of the world's biggest pregnancy apps, which is called Pregnancy Plus. Um, and she created that pretty much herself and she bootstrapped it and she called in experts. She ran her business lean. She was really creative with how she got things done. So she'd have a vision of how it should look and the, um, uh, the features that the app should have. And then she went and found great people. But perhaps where she could really keep her costs sensible. She wouldn't go off and go to some big digital agency. She'd go and really cherry pick and hand pick. And that resonated with me a lot. I've always, in my marketing work with my teams, I've always really tried to instill that ROI and actually do as much as you can, use a freelance designer who's good rather than going to a big agency and know being creative in how you spend your money to get your best return. So I love that. Um, and Amber's someone. She's my age, she's been hugely successful. She ended up selling her business to Philips. Uh, so Philips, uh, had the Avem brand and then they acquired Pregnancy plus because there was a great synergy there. And she's somebody who, not only has she achieved all of that, um, but she's been extremely generous to me in how she helps me and how. And I can see her helping others as well. She's in a position where she's done well. She's involved in other ventures, her own and others, and she's just hugely supportive. She's very much, uh, very kind of altruistic in her approach. She wants to put something back and help others. Um, she's a good balance for me. We, you know, we've had different experiences, but there's a lot of crossover there. And I just find, you know, how she, how she spends her time really helping other people. She's very supportive of women. She's very inclusive. You know, I've got to say, you know, I've been very lucky that a lot of the people in my network have been very generous to me in how they, whether it's been supporting me or say, yeah, I can come and help you through that Covid piece or yes, you're, you know, one of your key people's just left. I can cover that for you on a little interim basis, you know, through to people really including. And Amber, uh, has just, she's brought me onto networks that I know from years experience. A lot of people just wouldn't do that. They'd sort of go, well, I've got this and I'll help you, but I'm not. But Amber's, she's, she's very considerate with it. She doesn't give it away willy nilly, but she's been extremely generous to me. So she's. I've learned a lot from Amber around, um, around those elements. You know, be, be generous can be considerate and help people with, with what you've got. You know, where you are in your experiences may be really, really helpful. And I just, I'm very passionate with my own team. I want them to be the best they can. I want to understand where their career goals are and really just try and make them better all the time. Which probably drives them mad and thinks I'm always.

Speaker A: I'm sure it does.

Speaker B: Asking for more. Um, but yeah, I've learned a lot from her. I love, I love working with her. She's fantastic.

Speaker A: Yeah, amazing. Sounds like the world.

Speaker B: You're very lucky. Yeah, she's brilliant. And everywhere you see everyone who's involved with her, she's just Stella, she's a fantastic ambassador for herself and I mean that uh, in the absolute genuine way. She's great.

Speaker A: Brilliant. Thank you. And, and so in terms of. So there's people that you've learned from, but also if there are books or podcasts or even TED Talk documentary, usually we ask about books, but these days it could be anything. And at the end of the year then we create the human CEO reading list, which is often, yes, a watch list, but is there, is there anything that you would want to share that you've read or consumed that's helped you in your journey?

Speaker B: There's lots of things. But I do, I gotta say, Amy and I mentioned it, I touched on it earlier. I think, you know, I've had times when I've been quite focused on those books and actually I've reached a point sometimes where I'VE said, you know, it's helpful to have a look at this but as I said, the media is just everywhere. It's just. Did my, I know sound old saying it but gosh, it's gone crazy. Um, and actually sometimes it is important to have the switch off a little bit. And actually back to what I was saying earlier, we're brought on for what we bring to the party and so, you know, developing that self awareness and knowledge and I think taking a lot of those books for um, for you know, a great. I loved reading Warren Buffett's story, you know, I loved it. I mean it's mental. What a great and interesting read. It doesn't necessarily mean that's going to be something that I, that I adopt. Um, I love elements of what Simon Sinek says, but I must admit I, I sometimes. Yes, that's great. But I'm, you know, I'm running a tight little business in South Wales, you know, that's got a very different set of circumstances and it's a very different mindset. So it's a, it's knowing that some of those principles are good ones to tune into. Um, and, but think sometimes about where you can apply them and not allow them to put too much pressure on. I think probably the one that on a personal level, um, I found really helpful and helpful in how I can support my team where they, when they sometimes need help is quite quite simply the Chimp Paradox. Uh, I just think it's, it's great, you know, it's really fascinating. It's very, very simple. You know, when thinking back to some of those evolutionary ways of the, you know, m. How men and women work. You know, I see a lot of that in the workplace and I've just found it, it's a simple read, um, which I'm a big fan of. Um, because you know, you can every, everyone can access it. Um, and I just think it's really, really valuable to have. It's a great part of a journey around just self awareness and don't worry about things because this is normal and this is how we can deal with it. A very pragmatic approach which will always win for me. So it would have to be Steve Peters and the Chimp Paradox. I just think it's a great little read.

Speaker A: Good tip, good tip. And in terms of the, we talked about the questioning, didn't we? In terms of not thinking that it's a challenge to you. That's, that's the gym. And I suppose if you start using that language with the Team and the team understand that language, you can, it can pay dividends.

Speaker B: I think so. And I, I, I read it some years ago, probably about something like probably 10 years ago or more. But since COVID and uh, you know, when we're looking at how people are and how things are and rising levels of sort of worry and anxiety and uncertainty and many would say in lots of quarters, a loss of confidence, um, amongst individuals, then that's where I find it's just really kind of come into its own for me. And if we can try and you know, have that awareness of what's going on, you know, these sorts of things. If we're really anxious, often it's things like time management and organizing and process prioritizing.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: That's one of the first things that actually can quite simply be supported and looked at. It could be a really, really good win if you can create an environment where your team are actually having that conversation with you or telling you enough that you can support them. Um, and identify that actually. Look, let's have a look at prioritizing this here. And actually just then immediately you can almost see people's shoulders just relaxing a little, a little bit. Because when you, you know, and I've been there myself over the years, less so now because I'm getting better, got a lot better at it. But uh, m, you know that everything's going out of control. The to do lists get bigger and bigger and bigger. And you know, I think it's those simple principles that I think will always be, will always be required and will always be hugely valuable to people.

Speaker A: So I'm always really interested as well about people's journey into leadership and how that developed. And so your background's pr, journalism then marketing. And some people I think incorrectly assume that marketing, they see the creative side and they think it's purely, it's purely creative. But it's very much, it's psychology and it's numbers and it's data. Ah. And so I think if you've got the people and you've got the numbers, those are leadership capabilities all day long. And so from your perspective, was that an intentional journey that you were going to take?

Speaker B: Um, I think I learned very quickly on it wasn't just the creative side of things. I think, uh. M, One of my great CEOs I mentioned always talks about marketing as the Silk Scarf Brigade, which always served as a great reminder for me much as we had a wonderful relationship, lots uh, of Mickey Taker just. Yeah, exactly. Um, but actually yes, I think when I moved into that last role and really got stuck into proper marketing, which was all about growth, ROI, margins and so on. Um, so, yeah, 100% it's the marketing is about bringing the leads in and then it was also about, you know, really supporting the sales team then on closing those deals, you know, and bringing in that whole sort of story about not, you're not just selling somebody something, you're selling them an organization and um, a service that comes with that. And Marketing in a B2B organization obviously plays a huge, huge role there. So, yeah, I completely agree and I think on the leadership front, um, you know, went from early days going out to retailers, you know, and retailers can be really, really tough. You know, they used to be brutal. Uh, you know, you didn't sort of get the time of day. I think that's changing a little bit now. And retailers are realizing the importance of those relationships. And that gives you chance, it gives you face time, it gives you, you know, time to really go and connect and sell and so on and bring your customers on a journey with you. And that's what you need as a leader. You know, you're bringing everybody, whether it's, you'll always be bringing your external parties in, but also your team as well. Whoever's leading an organization has, has to be front of house. You have, you have to be. So whilst. And I've, I've uh, tried to be as careful as I can and avoid stereotypes on this conversation, but actually you are going to find some finance directors that are, that love front of house. Of course, I've worked with some myself, but, but they haven't been in the, in the majority. You know, I've worked in the businesses. I've worked, I've uh, have involved some great sciences and great technical minds. Again, of course you're going to find front of house there. You will, but it, but it won't be just so, so readily available. So I completely agree. I think marketing, you are, you know, you're driving for the relationship, for the commercials around that. Uh, but you've got to really know the customer as well. So you have to have that natural interest in who's dealing with this at the end of the day, who am I serving? Um, and that will tap into all of that customer care element. But you've also got your ROI background which always keep you really, really focused on the numbers as well. So. Yeah, I agree. I think it's a brilliant, brilliant routine. And I say, when I look back, whilst I wasn't there saying I want to be here. M. Um, I'm really glad I have and I. Excuse me. And I want to keep on, um, going and yes, it served me extremely well. And I'd encourage you others as much as possible. You know, be ambitious in your marketing work. You've got all the opportunities to make all the contacts to meet all the people to get stuck in. You're probably, you're probably naturally curious. Get into your colleagues, get into the different functions of the organization and ask all the questions because we've probably got a natural propensity to be doing that. Yeah, just go for it. It's really good fun and you'll learn loads. I'd highly recommend it.

Speaker A: It's great advice. Thank you. So you mentioned that there's going to be some exciting changes happening within the business. How do you see that that will evolve over time in terms of technology and.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, um, I've just loved seeing in the last couple of years just the, uh, sort of the plethora of services, um, and, um, products that have become available. And it's not just, of course, uh, as a company providing products into the market. Yeah, I can see all these great tests and great solutions. But you've also got initiatives like Pharmacy first, for example, that are allowing us to go into pharmacies for seven conditions that can actually be dealt with by a pharmacist. And some of those will involve prescription drugs and you don't have to go and see a doctor. That's a brilliant initiative. The target there is around, uh, in the next year or so is saving the NHS millions of pounds worth of time. So I think we're going to see more and more opportunities outside of the health service to just dilute a little bit and disperse, uh, a sort of shared burden with people that can afford things a little bit. You know, I live in Wales, I get prescriptions free. I'd really be happy paying for a prescription. Yeah, I absolutely would. I think we need to be thinking a little bit more around, you know, where we're allocating and giving people a choice around what they do. And I think, you know, in terms of, um, sort of the availability and accessibility for us, we work with retail, which is a fantastic outlet for healthcare, particularly when you've got a trusted brand like Boots, for instance. Your trust is everything in healthcare. So you've got a trusted brand, you've got the footprint. Um, the, the, the statistic is, I think it's 80% of people in the UK live within 10 minutes of a boot store, for example. You Know, and I'm referencing boots. There are other, you know, healthcare and trusted partners out there that people can get to and um, they can get to with making an appointment on their terms, um, paying an amount of money that they'll have made a decision if it's affordable for them or not. So I think we'll see this evolution of partners like pharmacists, they lend themselves really, really well. You've got that ability to connect. Um, I think it'll be great for end users to have those choices that they can make now. Much more autonomy, you know, and freedom to operate as far as their own healthcare is concerned. And I think that's, you know, fast forward five years I think, I think we'll, we'll be really happy about that.

Speaker A: That.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, I think, I think we'll see that growing and I think it'll work really, really well.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a cultural change that's taken place generationally or not. I don't know whether we can stereotype, but when I think about my grandparents, my parents attitude to health care and then I look around at uh, myself and my peers and how me and my husband think about health, I think there's been a massive shift in mindset from, from an empowerment, from a, uh, definitely second opinions point of view. From a, even looking at supplements. I think people are a lot more curious and information obviously is everywhere now. So people are a lot more empowered to understand their own health better. But I think that's not going to change anytime soon. If anything it's only going to accelerate.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think interested, definitely. And I really, you know, that message for me is it's so important. I, you know, I, we talk about it a lot in the, in the office and people have different views and you know, we try and influence, you know, where we can. And you know, I just, I, I want, for me life is about living, living for as long as possible without sort of reliance on others for, for health care or about uh, or you know, living in comfort. So I'm not, I'm not, I'm not Brian Johnson, we were chatting about him yesterday. I'm not trying to live till I'm 150, but for the years that I am here, I want to be independent. You know, I want to be, you know, I'm always looking around. I live in a city, seeing different people. You can have one person who's in their 90s, who's up and about, you know, look at the queen. It's not the queen. Isn't well, it's all right for her. She had all the money. Actually. No, she made choices. Every single time she sat down to the meal table. She made choices about when she was, when she might step aside from her role. She made choices about how many roles she did and how active she was. Etc. Etc. Etc. Um, and then you may see somebody who's a lot younger than that, who's perhaps in a mobility scooter now. You know, and I see that as like, that's limiting. You know, you're not walking anymore, you're not walking upstairs anymore or you're not doing this anymore because your world's shrinking. And it's about thinking it's changing that mindset from that's just something that happens as you get older to actually that's something that ah, I may have to surrender to if I don't do certain things. And the more, the earlier we can think about that and how we actually want it to look. Maybe my. I didn't have a career plan where I wanted to end up, but I certainly do have, you know, a life plan of how I want it to look as best as possible. And I do not want to be on crutches. I don't want to be in hospital, I don't want to be on a mobility scooter. Uh, I don't want to be relying on somebody coming and having to visit me to twice a day as uh, long as possible. I'll do everything I can to try and avoid that.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah. And prevention's better than the cure 100. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I. So my best friend's grandmother's 102 in April and has nowhere near the funds of the. The queen, obviously. But she, it goes back to choices. She's always been meat and two veg and she's always gone out walking and she's always just kept mobile. And I think it does go back to those small choices and we can talk about having different budgets and. But those lifestyle choices, just making those different changes and keeping an eye on your health, like doing the checks that are available now if you're able to. I think that can make a massive difference. But yeah, to be 102 and independent, that's definitely, that's the goal.

Speaker B: That's fantastic. You know, it's do. She's uh, of course she's got great genes.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But she's making the choices that work for her and I think that's the key thing. You know, you'll always get something. Yeah. But they've smoked all their life and they just do, you know what? Make the choice. Be happy. You know, get.

Speaker A: Be.

Speaker B: Make a series of choices that are happy for you. If you'll be happy doing that, then that's really important.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: But. But you have to be honest with yourself about it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, about what brings that.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Great advice. Thank you, Penny.

Speaker B: No worries at all. Lovely to speak to you, Amy.

Speaker A: Good to speak to you, too.