The Challenges a New Leader Faces

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: So welcome to this next episode of 2J's HR and Leadership podcast. And today, uh, I'm joined by Harry Carthy. Now Harry, I've known you for, it's nearly four years now, um, but we first crossed paths when you were joining the graduate scheme at Coonanagal, but your current role as National Commercial Service Manager at Coonanagle, um, I thought you'd be appropriate, appropriate to talk about this particular topic today, which is really just looking at the challenges a new leader faces and, uh, really keen just to kind of understand your experiences of becoming a new leader, um, and the challenges that you faced and ideas and thoughts on how they could be improved, if anything.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. No, I think, yeah, I mean, as you mentioned there, we've, we've had a sort of a fostered relationship over the last few years, I think, um, from a very, you know, young, first career, um, point of view from myself on the graduate scheme to now being in a position of management and having a team. Yeah, it's been, it's ah, been an interesting few years. And um, yeah, it's not gone without challenges. But yeah, I think it's an important topic that's, you know, quite, quite prevalent as the logistics. Uh, industry as a whole as well is, uh, an aging population. So, so more younger managers are coming in into the industry and I think it's, yeah, it's very topical.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm kind of conscious that we're both at different ends of career spectrums, if you like. So what age are you going as now? Is it in your 20s still?

Speaker A: Is it? Yeah, I'm 25. 25 now.

Speaker B: Wow. So I'm double that now. So I'm at the other end of the spectrum as we say. But, um, my experiences of becoming a new manager, a, ah, long, long time ago, um, obviously there were a few challenges which I guess may be consistent. But for you guys kind of joining organization now, becoming leadership, there's a whole heap of additional things that you've got to deal with. Um, so, yeah, that's why I just wanted to kind of get the modern update, as it were, in terms of the challenges facing you guys. So how would you say that, um, your experience was kind of stepping into your first role, be that off or off the graduate program or part of the graduate program? Um, how did that go for you?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that the graduate program for me was, um, sort of shaped around building as much, you know, business acumen as well as something that you, you've pushed through some of your Training sessions, Lee, which is around, you know, your network. I think for me, um, I, I definitely valued those equally. Um, my networking, um, was coupled with the sort of business acumen you get on the job and I think that's has set me in a good stead. Um, I think it's probably one of the most important things you can do sort of early in the career is network. And I know people discuss that at length but it really is invaluable. Um, and you never know who you're going to lean on and at what point you need to lean on those individuals that you've built the relationships with. So with that being said, I think that the hardest part about going into a role post grad scheme is knowing when to lean on those relationships and when to ask for support or whether that's for mentorships or um, career progression talks, I think. Yeah, the network comes into play and it's been my biggest asset I think. And the business has been great in that respect, especially with the graduate scheme.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good point. And we often used to bang on in the training courses about um, the importance of the network and talked about the fact that your net worth is your network effectively. So um, it's good to hear that kind of, you recognize that as you stepped into the role. But um, I guess as we're talking about new managers, most new managers, ah, I guess, um, find themselves in similar situations to yourself, kind of being fairly young, going into a, ah, team that may have some experienced individuals. So how did you find the age thing kind of stepping into a leader role?

Speaker A: Yeah, um, it's a challenge, uh, it's absolutely a challenge. I think the biggest thing for me is as a younger manager, um, leading a team which has members of the team which are older and they've had a more extensive career within the, within the industry and a more extensive career as a whole. I think the biggest thing you've got to do is, is that balance between, you know, it's about build, I think building credibility is the biggest thing. Um, you know, it's about building trust and credibility there I think. And, and doing that by. It's quite easy to say open communication. Yeah. And being. And I think genuinely have to show that there has been people within the business that have entrusted you to go into that role. And then as part of that you have to then follow that through with actions and you know, you can't, you can't go into a role and demand credibility. You know, you have to, you have to actively show that and in the situation I was in, it was a very exciting, um, new project, new field, um, and with a, you know, with an expanding customer base. And I think that enabled the growth of not only the area that I was working in, but also the sort of management style that you start to build up within the team, um, which has led to, you know, the team's been a great success and you know, and we're growing, growing, uh, sort of month on month, which is fantastic. So yeah, I think the challenge is being a young leader is definitely you can't go in there and demand respect. And I think there's definitely misconceptions around graduate schemes and apprentices, um, not just within logistics but you know, in all industries about, you know, is it. Is it too fast of a, uh, stepping stone? Is it, Is it um, you know, an um, unjust career ladder progression step? Um, and I think you have those challenges and those. And those preconceptions exist within all areas of sort of businesses. And I think, yeah, that coupled with somebody who's coming in and is potentially younger than you, um, and suddenly being your manager I think is um. Yeah, it's a challenge, but I think if you approach it with sort of the sensitivity that it deserves, uh, you know, it's not something that can't be overcome, but absolutely. I think it's probably the top. One of the top points of all young new managers coming into an area is, okay, how can I get this team to trust me? I think, yeah, as I say, that's done with building that. That element of respect and the fact that you've been entrusted to do the job. Now you have to prove it.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think you hit uh, a nail on the head there with the credibility. Now I know that you're far too modest to admit that you're highly regarded in the organization. And I know that because, um, still working with uh, your company, your name is often banded around as uh, a kind of role model in terms of uh, the credibility, the effectiveness, uh, and ability of young management coming through. Um, but uh, I think that credibility element, I think you're right. I think a lot of that is as you say, kind of proven improving yourself, delivering on your promises, as it were, kind of uh, behaving in the right mannerisms as well. And I think a lot of that is um, often down to personal brand, isn't it, how you project yourself? And the reason I mentioned that specifically for yourself, um, is that again your reputation, um, when your name is banded around, particularly with some of the younger Graduates and uh, new schemas is of the guy in the suit.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Always recognized as being that professional image, that kind of professional kind of uh, behavior, mannerisms, etc. I'm just curious, is that something that you consciously worked on or consciously are aware of?

Speaker A: Yeah, so you caught me on a, you've caught me on a casual day with the no tie and the M quarters it. But um. No, I think uh. I don't know whether it's just been ingrained within my household growing up. You know my dad's always been within um, you know, corporate environments. Um, same with my mum. And I think the biggest thing I grew up with was dress for the job that you want, not the job that you have. And I think personal brand for me is, is something it's. You can stand out with the work you do. But also people um, you know, people say first impressions matter but they really, really do. And I think if, if you've got an element of personal brand, you know, you've built something and maybe someone's seen a post on LinkedIn for example that you've, you've done but kind of recognize your face from somewhere. It's just a conversation starter. So I think it's um. Yeah it's been something I have put a lot of effort into. Um. But yeah, the uh, chap in the suit seems to be something that's uh, floated about every now and then and I say yeah, uh, it's a casual one for me today.

Speaker B: But no, I really admire that and I think it's a kudos to you that um, uh. That awareness around your personal brand and like you say dressing for the job that you want etc. Is um, absolutely spot on and something that I think in this day and age, post Covid with much more uh, relaxed dress codes etc. Um. Maybe some people aren't as aware of the uh, the impact of their image or how they're coming across um, through the non body language or the non verbal communication and the subsequent body language as it were. So I think um, again kudos as I say to you on that. Um. I guess one of the things I wanted to kind of pick your brains on is um again coming into a team or taking over a team. You mentioned about kind of uh, older generations there, etc, where you may as a younger generation have more knowledge and experience around the technology that's coming uh, into workplaces these days. I think particularly around AI or even systems etc. Um, uh. And how do you do, how do you deal with that?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I Definitely think there's, it's interesting to talk about because coming in you're definitely more aware of social and sort of ever changing developments around technology, cultural changes as well, uh, societal changes. I think it can all be coupled under the same umbrella. Um, yeah, they can all be coupled under the same umbrella and I think there is definitely an advantage to coming in and you know, having a different perspective potentially to um, different generations of managers. Not to say that other generations by any means have you know, outdated mindsets which some people like to stamp and say, you know, we need a fresh set of eyes. I don't actually think that's always the case. I just think that there's a lot more pressures on younger generations with you know, certain societal changes and threats to businesses with AI. And I think it does offer a fresh perspective, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's you know, a game changer. I think, I think it is, it's quite a lot of pressure to put that on a young generation saying that they're going to come in and be that step change that we need. I definitely think it is a fresh perspective, but I do think that some businesses put far too much onus on um, they're outdated management, uh, team for example. I don't think that's the case at all. I think that the societal changes I think have more of an impact. Younger managers or younger people coming into the business world have different pressures in their personal lives as well. And I think that's something that's uh, sometimes overlooked. Buying a house now for example, is very different to buying a house 25 years ago. And is how does that affect somebody's, you know, career drive, you know, their, their, their need for or ability to relocate. And I think that's something that also can be linked in with that, that AI change, but it's less specific to technology and more just a general approach to how's life changed, how's life changed as a 25 year old now as it was when someone was 25, 25 years ago?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a great point and um, I think it's being conscious of that as well, isn't it to, to kind of get used to how you're going to deal with those things. I also know that from your experience you've been uh, very lucky in your early uh, career to have worked internationally as well. So do you feel that there's a, um, different mindset or a different approach to young leaders, new leaders in different cultures or different companies?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So I Think um, yes, I was fortunate enough to do um, a three month sort of spell out in, in Germany across a variety of different uh, cities and locations. Um, there is definitely a, I'd say an equal drive and an importance on you know, new talent, apprentices, graduates. That's, that's something that is I think widely accepted especially within Europe as I can necessarily comment on a wider picture because I've not experienced it myself. But I think the difference with the UK is we obviously are very conscious on um, I suppose young people's uh, current issues and challenges and that can stem from you know, now within schools, you know mental health is such an important topic and has been taught. I can remember when I was at school for example, mental health was not a topic at all. And I've got a younger brother who's completing his A levels at the minute and throughout uh, his secondary school in mental health has always been a massive topic. So I think the generations that are coming through now into the business world post university are going to have you know, more, a more rounded approach that actually we're retrospectively training out within businesses at the minute. Um, just maybe some of the older generational managers um, that didn't have, that, didn't have that insight and you know, that's all. It varies. It goes to sustainability, um, you know, uh, right across to yeah, mental health being the biggest one. But you know, uh, within our business we have you know, well being team and uh, you know, menopause awareness cafes, you know, all sorts of different areas that actually the younger generation coming in may be much more aware of um, and then those sort of needs of you know, understanding and refreshers and training sessions actually may become a little bit less redundant within the business element.

Speaker B: Yeah, you're right. I think um, that the kind of additional uh, aspects of emotional intelligence is really important just to kind of um, get across and they say it's kind of been trained out within the organization. So those people joining an organization having that understanding and having that kind of um, ability to hit the ground running with that um, empathetic leadership or transformational leadership style is going to be benefiting a lot of organizations. So it's really interesting to hear. Um, I won't try and recall my school days because that was far too long ago. But again lots of things have changed since those days for new people equipping themselves into the workforce. Um, so yeah, I'm just kind of uh, still curious. Is there anything kind of challenging that you're still facing at the moment in your Role as a leader, I think.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I definitely think there's um, challenges that I think any leader faces. Uh, and I think I'm not any different to any new manager, regardless of my age, I think for specific challenges for a new leader. But a young, new leader, say, calling myself young, I don't know how long I can get away with that for.

Speaker B: I think, trust me, as long as you possibly can go through it.

Speaker A: Yeah, probably for the next like 10, 15 years I'm going to try and call myself a young manager. But I think imposter syndrome has to be the uh, um, the largest one I think on a day to day basis. For myself, the first six months have been within a management role. You, you do feel inadequate at times, you doubt your own capabilities. And I think for myself, and you know it's, this is going to be really, you're going to uh, you're going to either be really proud here, Lee, with all the training sessions as a graduate, or you, you're going to think, wow, this, this guy's cheesy. But I think, you know, self reflection moments, genuinely, um, you know, let's say there's a large meeting that you've just been a part of, taking away. What look, could I have done that six months ago? Absolutely not. You know, and being, you know, proud of yourself and also questioning yourself when things go wrong. Uh, and that self reflection I think is really important and you know, businesses across the board, whether it's in logistics, whether it is in um, you know, fields, you know, let's say tech for example, AI, there'll be, there'll be managers there that um, will have support networks, they'll have mentors, they'll have buddies, they will have managers who are there to you know, push and progress their careers. But your, you know, your biggest asset is yourself. And I think, you know, having that reflection, good or bad, is really important and you know, sharing those personal experiences with people as well, um, how you've overcome it, I think that's, that's the, that's the biggest win um, that you can have. Where was, where was I a year ago? What have I ever, what have I, what have I, you know, won? What have I lost in the last year? And then how, how do I want the next year to go? And you know, everyone says that you can have self reflection moments, but really taking that half an hour in a dark room, you know, with just a pen and paper, just thinking about how the week's been, I think is, you know, a massive, a massive way to go forward. And, um, that's kind of something that's enabled me to be a bit more broad in my thinking of myself and how I manage.

Speaker B: Yeah, again, it's a good point. And just to clarify that not all of our training courses were in a dark room with pen and paper, but we'll take credit for if, uh, that stuck with you, the kind of reflection side of things. But you're absolutely right. The, uh, imposter syndrome is a fascinating subject because, um, I totally get what you're saying, that a new leader, particularly, uh, young leaders, may be experiencing that. But, uh, I can share with you that, um, dealing with other clients, um, the imposter syndrome is surprisingly, um. Or maybe not surprisingly rife, um, in a lot of senior roles as well. I remember I won't name the company or the individual, but there was a, uh, senior, um, HR Director, uh, for a large clothing company, um, who was, uh, about to do a presentation or invited to do a presentation with us and actually said, no, I don't want to do that. And I was like, oh, what's the issue? So why would they want to listen to me? What can I actually add? And I was like, oh, my gosh, are you crazy? With your experience, your background, your credibility, how you come across, they'll be biting your hand off to listen to you. But she couldn't see her worth in terms of actually sharing that knowledge and experience. So I, uh, think it's a great thing to call out and, um, having that ability to recognize that and then to reflect on it and use whatever resources you have available to you, your network that you mentioned earlier, uh, on, um, to kind of overcome those things is a great point there to make.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's an element of being a young manager. You don't know what your manager or their manager, how they're feeling unless you speak to them. And I think that trying to bottle this up and it links in with a lot of things, bottling up anything, it's never a good idea, but especially when it comes to how you know how to approach tasks, how to approach situations. You're. You're absolutely right. I'm sure everyone has had an element in their career where they have had a sense of imposter syndrome. I think it's somewhat to be expected with a young, you know, a new manager because they. It's the first time they've had to experience certain. Certain elements of the job. Um, but, yeah, I think just talking about it and sharing those, you know, sharing those experiences, um, and building that knowledge base, I think is definitely, uh, the way forward.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think again, um, as your reputation continues to grow and your career continues to grow, as I know it will, if you kind of reflect on what would be your advice to new leaders or new managers starting, uh, the very first roles, um, uh, and what should they be kind of looking out for and kind of be looking to, um, focus on it, as it were.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I would say, I think, Lee, you'll probably say it's come from you, and I think it has, but it's, It's a saying that is like, you are a reflection of the five people you spend the most time with. And, um, I think if you go into a new management role with the intention of developing your own leadership style, I think that is the best first step. You know, that unique leadership style. That's a compilation of the five best managers that you've had and the traits that you've had from those managers previously. I think you will only be able to excel in that position. Um, the qualities that you're admiring in those leaders. I think, you know, incorporating that in the situation you're in, um, as well as, you know, the feedback you're getting, um, from, you know, whether that's the staff that you're managing or your peers in management as well, I think that's going to influence your growth massively. Um, yeah, I think if you take the best snippets of the best managers you've had and go back to those times and actually that, that conversation I had with that manager was really impactful and that made me think like that when I got home, that impact you can have on the individuals that you're then leading. Um, and I think if, you know, if anyone goes into a management role with that mindset, you can only have positive impacts on people. Uh, I think it's really important to actually, on the flip side, you can probably take the five worst elements of management that you've had experiences of and do the opposite. I actually didn't really appreciate the way that that manager approached me and discussed this topic. So I'm never going to do that. And you'll have those stick with you. That's kind of what I like to base on. You know, I've been very fortunate. Um, I can't say I've had. I've had a bad, A bad manager at all in my time in my career. So, um, it's, it's been helpful for me because I've been able to take a lot and it's really hard to nail it down to five people. And by no means am I going to name drop, name drop anyone, uh, but even yourself, Lee, I'm sure you're aware of the people that I've had relationships with and the strength that's been there. And you know, I'd like to be in a position one day where I'm one of the five people that someone's thinking about. And that's kind of the ethos I've gone into it with.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're spot on. And again, knowing the managers and the mentors that you've had support you through the program, graduate program, early career, um, they've actually bought into the humility of leadership, the ability to kind of um, um, pass on experience. And I think you're right to say there that you should be constantly learning as a leader, whether you're a new leader or experienced one from um, your experiences with others and. Absolutely right. Take on board the best traits that you see and recognize at work and also recognize um, some of the traits that maybe uh, aren't beneficial and shouldn't uh, be replicated and learn from that experience. But I think the idea of surrounding yourself with the right people is absolutely spot on. Um, uh, I can't claim it, but the cliche that um, always make sure you're not the smartest person in the room so you're constantly learning from other people, um, is a key thing. So I guess it's looking for those opportunities really, isn't it, as a manager, a new leader, um, how can you engineer that? How can you um, tap in again to your network? How can you uh, get mentors or even, um, as you well know, peer, uh, to peer mentoring as well. Um, it doesn't necessarily have to be a hierarchical thing. Uh, it's just learning as best you can from those around you.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. The peer to peer, I think is probably one that's overlooked. You know, graduate scheme is built for peer, uh, to peer conversations. But you know, if you're not or have been a part of an apprenticeship or a graduate scheme where you've got sort of a similar aged cohort, for example, I think. Yeah. You know, talking to colleagues about positive and negative experiences, even if, you know, if those colleagues have different management, those impactful, you know, it's just learning. I think, you know, actually if you speak to a colleague and they've had a really beneficial impact with a manager. Okay, what, what was impactful? How did the. What. Why? Okay, it's because the manager approached it in this way. Okay, brilliant. You know, you're learning. It's not even your own, your own experience that you're learning from. It's just something that's happened to somebody that you have a relationship with. So. No, you're exactly right. I think it's um. Yeah, I think it's overlooked.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I guess um, if you've got a very supportive organisation, which I know you have, um, that's very easy to do if you've got fellow managers and development, uh, teams supporting you on the way. But maybe some individuals may find themselves in maybe smaller organisations where there's not the resource or the time to actually um, develop them as leaders. Um, what are your thoughts on where they should go and what they should do then in terms of those kind of environments?

Speaker A: You've stumped me, Lee.

Speaker B: I try to with at least one question, Harry.

Speaker A: Would you mind rephrasing it? Yeah.

Speaker B: So I guess uh, the key thing for me that with some of our clients we don't always deal with uh, large blue chip global organizations like yourselves. Some of our organisations, ah, are SMEs and um, small and medium sized businesses. And I'm aware that they don't necessarily have a hr, um, department or a training department or even kind of um, learning uh, platforms that new managers can kind of tap into. So if you're a new manager in that environment, just talking about the networking like you've been doing, what, what would you suggest their course of action should be? Where should they go to kind of look to get that uh, development, to deal with some of the challenges.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, you've almost teed me up here. But I feel like it's probably goes without saying a service sort of that, similar to that 2Js or 2Js provide, you know, the elements where you've got Training courses available, LinkedIn training courses. Um, you know, we are, we've got a plethora of ability of, you know, information at our fingertips as they say. And I think those online courses, um, whether that be, you know, additional education, you know, actually you've got a slight interest in marketing and you're going to do a marketing course for example, and then as part of that you're building a network of people that are also on that marketing course. I think even if you're in a, you know, an SME with a very small group, you know, employee base, the, the wealth of, you know, information and knowledge that's on platforms such as LinkedIn, um, you know, even just YouTube now, you know, YouTube training courses. You know, you got to be careful. I think with you probably do a bit of research in terms of what sort of content it is that you're trying to, you know, absorb and become. Um, but no, I think there's, there's no. Well it sounds awful isn't it? But there's no, there's no excuse to not have, have the ability to find the information because it's definitely out there and there's so many people that have got the information and the willingness to share it.

Speaker B: I think you're spot on. Again, I think for me, like you say, there's a, almost a never ending uh, stream of resources. You mentioned YouTube, LinkedIn, etc. There's Udemy courses, etc. There's loads of resources out there potentially for new leaders. I think the thing that underpins the access to that though is the person's hunger, the person's uh, desire to want to improve and kind of look at things, um, with what can I do for myself, um, rather than kind of being the kind of victim in the process of facing the challenges. And I know that you've dealt with that very well together with your um, uh, graduate colleagues, that there is that natural hunger there to kind of want to better yourselves, to improve, to constantly stretch yourself from your comfort zones and to succeed as you've demonstrated. So I think there's element of um, own personal mindset, um, to go out and seek those opportunities, uh, as well as partly being aware of what they are and uh, where they're accessible for you as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think it comes back to personal brand, doesn't it? Is what's your desire to better yourself? I think, um, and if that is going out and you know, making the effort to network or if that is going out and making the effort to you know, gain a broader understanding around education in your field. I think they both go hand in hand and it's about that drive. And I think, you know, not everything's going to be given to you. I think you've got to go out and you've got to go out and ask the questions, you know, push the buttons and rock the ship, I think in a lot of elements, uh, in order to, you know, to develop yourself.

Speaker B: Well Harry, that's been some fantastic insights and uh, nuggets of personal experience there. But if I was to ask you just to kind of summarize with maybe one thing, one thing that you think a new leader, uh, um, who may be facing some serious challenges, that you may have mentioned. What do you think your advice would be to them to kind of focus on?

Speaker A: I would have to say it would be the self reflection. If there's one thing that I am proud of myself for doing is self reflection and taking the positives where the positives are due and celebrating those, whether that's with yourself, um, with a takeaway on a Friday or uh, whether that is, you know, challenging yourself, uh, when things have gone wrong and ensuring that you've made a mental, and maybe a paper and pen note, um, to not, to not um, repeat it or do your best effort to not repeat it. And I think that way you can only grow. Um, so I think the biggest thing would be self reflection and it's nice. You know, I think everyone needs 15, 30 minutes away from, uh, the laptop and the emails every now and then. Um, and I think as part of that, it's the only strength I think you can do that's free as well. What's 15, 30 minutes in your work week, um, compared to the amount of time that you're investing in yourself and the business? So absolutely, I think self reflection would be my absolute key takeaway.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good one to end on there, I think. Uh, we spoke before on previous courses about the importance of, of me time and recognizing that in most organizations now, the pressure to actually meet demands or customer expectations, etcetera, sometimes does away with that kind of time management element of finding time to reflect on yourself and your development area. So I think it's really important that you highlight that as one of the key things. Um, Harry, that's been absolutely fantastic. Uh, and thank you very much for sharing your insights there plenty there for listeners to take away and, uh, divulge. Um, hope to see you again on future podcasts if we can tap into your experience. But for the time, time being, thank you once again for joining us today.

Speaker A: Brilliant. Thank you, Lee.

Speaker B: Calling all HR professionals, leaders and managers. Are you ready to take your workplace strategy to the next level at 2Js? We get it. Managing people, driving engagement and keeping up with ever changing HR challenges isn't easy. But what if you had instant access to expert LED training, ready to use HR toolkits and practical resources all designed to make your job easier. From leadership development to conflict resolution, employee engagement to resilience training, we've got the solutions you need when you need them. And here's something just for you. Use discount code PODCAST25 at the checkout for 25% off all purchases at 2J's HR Store no more wasting time on outdated processes. Visit 2jshrstore.com today and claim your exclusive discount. Because great HR isn't just about policies, it's about people.