He Built a 7-Person Agency Without a Single Marketing Campaign

Welcome back to the Happy Clients Podcast. Today, I'm so excited to introduce you to John. He is one of our clients here at DOT, and we have been working with him since he started his marketing agency. When we first chatted, John and I, he was kind of just starting and the idea of an agency was just kind of on the horizon.

And now we've been working with him for a while. We got to meet in person at an event last month, and he is just such a cool agency owner and his story has been really cool to follow along. So let's get into today's episode. I can't wait for you to meet John.

Welcome to the Happy Clients Podcast, brought to you by Dot and Company. Whether you're a virtual assistant, an agency owner, or a client-facing account manager, we all deal with clients. Lucky for you, client management is what we do best. Now, let's dig in.

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Find out how E2M can support your agency at e2msolutions.com slash dot. Today I'm doing something a little bit different, which I'm excited about. I'm sitting down with one of our actual clients, John, and not to talk about dot, but really just to talk about you and what you've built, John, and how you've navigated the agency life.

And I think if you're listening to this, you're probably going to want to listen because John's built a pretty cool, spectacular agency. Well, welcome to the show, John. Thank you very much. And we'll probably have to talk a little bit about DOT because it's a big part of the story, but no, thank you for having me.

Yeah. Well, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you've built. Give me kind of the version, I guess, you'd tell another agency owner if they were listening. Okay, so it starts back, you know, January day, 1980.

No, I won't go that far. But no, about three and a half years ago now. So early 2023 is the official start of Safrina, which now is the Safrina Marketing Group. But my career goes back about 23 years.

Coming out of school, I did major in marketing, but never really thought about the agency world until I did a summer internship and really enjoyed it in the healthcare marketing space, another area I never really thought about until I was in it. And so, you know, what started as kind of happenstance and opportunity led to over 20 years of working my way through a few different healthcare-focused marketing agencies, I'd say health and wellness-focused, through a bunch of different paths, always based in Toronto, but working within Canada, globally, US business, in the pharma world, in the consumer health world, the health tech world.

Really interesting, varied opportunities. Quite a bit of focus on the kind of consumer health and DTC world, which is rare in Canadian healthcare marketing. But certainly for me, I think one of the reasons I stayed in it this long, it was a more interesting area for me. And all through that, maybe halfway through that time, like, you know, 10, 15 years ago, started to have conversations with several colleagues about eventually starting our own thing.

And those, it's funny to kind of look back and even talk about that now in hindsight, because the way we discussed it was nothing at all, like how it actually happened years later. And it was always one of those things that was easy to kind of say, we're going to do that in four or five years, and kind of kick the can down the road. So it was always four or five years away, no matter what timeframe we were in. And I think a huge turning point for me, and it was obviously nothing I had control over, was COVID and kind of being forced to learn to work very differently.

So those early conversations around, you know, having a fully baked team and an office space already figured out and, you know, two or three clients already baked in is almost laughable now in hindsight, because if we waited for that, we would never get started. But I think COVID gave me kind of the, not only the permission, but the confidence that, you know, we could do this with very few barriers without an office, without even an actual team. And without even feeling any different in terms of my, like personally, my own day-to-day routine.

Like I'm still, this is where I was working before for, you know, several years during COVID for the most part. You know, we joked that had we not even told our kids who are now 14 and 12, so they were what, 11 and nine at the time, had we not told them about this, I don't think they'd even notice any difference in terms of me, quote unquote, going to work in our house. So nothing really changed lifestyle wise significantly So I think that for me you know it was easy for me to allow these barriers to get in the way of actually taking the you know quote unquote entrepreneurial leap But certainly a lot of those barriers were eliminated during COVID.

And that's ultimately, among many other things, what kind of led to this this happening. So and again, I like I say to anyone who's thinking about this move, it's easy now with, you know, three and a half years or so under my belt. but no regrets at all. It's been incredible, even though it wasn't entirely, you know, intended and planned as it happened.

So what did the agency look like in year one versus where it is now? So it was probably me, I don't know, maybe about five to 10 pounds lighter. And I think with slightly thicker facial hair. And then at the time, literally, that's it.

So it, what I would now call an agency and what I ultimately always wanted to call an agency was by definition, what I would call a consultancy. And like before actually starting it, I had a couple client opportunities lined up, which was really a huge, you know, that was kind of a huge catalyst to, to, for this to actually happen. And they were both kind of small owner led businesses, one family business, a great business and still one that we work with that really didn't even have a marketing infrastructure.

So we were really, or I was brought in more as a marketing partner, call it fractional marketing lead, if you will. And then when there was quote unquote agency services needed, well, I would kind of tap into my network at the time, freelancers and others to kind of help get that done. And it wasn't even, you know, again, when I had all those thoughts and earlier visions of starting an agency, that was never how I had thought through it or intended it. But in reality, that was the only way to do it.

And that's what led to, although those were small businesses and, you know, not full-fledged quote-unquote opportunities for the agency, that's what led to me recognizing that we could do this in a way that's fractional and that is project-oriented and tailored and consistent with the vision that the original vision I had, which was, you know, working for a WPP agency for several years and really being exposed to the positives, but also the kind of inefficiencies of those massive global networks, I realized we could offer all of the same sophistication, strategic thinking, creativity, reliability, without the excess and the bloat and the inefficiencies and the kind of competing priorities where we had to focus quite a bit on our own internal goals, month to month, quarter to quarter, that weren't always consistent with doing the best possible work and having the best possible people on the business and compensating and rewarding the best possible people to make sure they stayed on the business.

So, you know, it started to become apparent. It was apparent very early we could do that without that infrastructure. And then as we got into it and started to recognize, wow, there's a world outside of this massive kind of corporate, you know, machine that can work and that can work well with great people who know what they're doing, who have experience, who are dedicated, who want to focus on the work, including uh yourselves your team uh because finding quote-unquote fractional uh account management or project management was difficult and that was a fear of mine that you know we had to wait till we had enough business to hire someone full-time or we just wouldn't have that bowl fulfilled um so agencies like dot uh and many others that could kind of contribute pieces of the puzzle um started to come into focus and those were that was a whole world i just kind of didn't know existed while I was part of the machine.

And it took being out of the machine and sort of slowly building to recognize it. And then another big part of my early time as a business owner, entrepreneur, consultant was really working as an extension of other agencies, helping them, whether it was to get into the healthcare space, to get into the Toronto market, areas that I had specialized in over the years. I would say all either firsthand or secondhand relationships because my network was largely in the agency world.

And that was great. While I was helping them, they were really helping me too to kind of get exposure to some of the smaller independent agencies and how they work and how they operate. Because over 20 plus years, as I've kind of worked my way through agencies that were growing and then becoming part of networks or owned by private equity and operating differently, I had kind of gotten further away from that smaller independent type where I had also started. So it was that first year, year and a half to get exposed again to how those owner-led small agencies worked, in hindsight, I think was a huge part of me then confidently growing this team that we have now.

So a lot of, you know, looking back, a lot of things that happened that if you had asked me at that time, I never would have been able to describe or articulate or, you know, plan for. It was really just kind of moving along, having great conversations and trying to make the best decision in the moment at each time, at each point. So when you went from just you, kind of that consultancy, like you said, into growing a team, take me back to that moment where you realized maybe something wasn't working the way you wanted it to be working.

And why did you decide to grow it into a team rather than just staying as a solo It a great question So there was a couple parts to that One I realized that selling my own time was working fairly well And I was having a pretty good amount of success and realized okay I was, you know, making enough money to put food on the table and keep our lifestyle and all of that. And that was great, but it wasn't scalable. I only have my own, you know, so much time. There was also downward pressure from a cost standpoint, especially when a lot of my clients at the time were agencies or smaller businesses.

So it just didn't feel it was potentially sustainable, but not necessarily scalable. And it also wasn't what I necessarily wanted to do. I was doing a lot of work to then ultimately help others, which was great without building my own thing. And so that was part of it is the scalability.

And the other part was, you know, I was just out of need or opportunity partnering with several different people I either knew and worked with over the years or met through them. And it was kind of my own network and then that kind of extended web and meeting and working with great people and starting to have conversations about this being more than just a one project or one initiative opportunity. And some of those people came and went. Some went back and went into full-time leadership roles in other agencies.

and then started to get more and more opportunities where, okay, this team is not necessarily permanent yet, but we can't do the work alone. We need, whether it's the creative side of things, writing, design, we need obviously the account and project management leadership beyond just myself. My focus is more on the marketing strategy side, but sometimes we need help in that space as well. So it was bringing in helpers as needed until eventually we landed an opportunity that was going to be more than just a three to four or five month project.

That was going to be an ongoing opportunity, one that needed not just a haphazard pulled together project team, but a team that we could stand up as committed and dedicated to this on an ongoing basis. And that's where we started to have the conversation about a more permanent relationship. And again, it wasn't enough at the time for a full-time account manager, but certainly required a commitment to at least a fractional account manager. And I think the partnership with DOT, not only did it bring an amazing individual to our team and then additional individuals at times, but a certain level of rigor and infrastructure that your team brought that I certainly didn't have on my own and might've thought, okay, I'll build that when I need it.

But it's just not, you know, there comes a point in time and my last boss at Tank had this great advice for me, which is you get to a point in your career, especially I think when he told me this, I was probably right around 40. And he said, you know, you've got to always acknowledge your weak points and your challenge areas, but at some point maybe stop trying to fix it and just acknowledge it and own it. And then make sure you surround yourself with the right people that complement your strengths and then your challenge areas so that it, you know, to mitigate that.

And I think that was a huge part of what the DOT partnership has done for Safrina, because my strength is certainly not in ensuring that level of rigor and structure. And even the tools that come with that, the platforms and the tools that I was largely trying to ignore in the first year to year and a half of Safrina's life. It was a lot of spreadsheets and notes and, you know, just trying to keep track of things in my calendar without a lot of, I'll call it shareable, repeatable structure.

So I'm curious, what does that look like now that you have the team in place? Like, What does your role look like versus other people's? How involved are you? Kind of paint us a picture.

I'm still very involved in that. As we grow, I think there will be a need to start to stay involved, but find ways to bring the right people in so I can step a little bit further away from the day to day. That hasn't happened yet. And that's OK.

I enjoy being involved. But I recognize, again, like I said earlier, there's a limitation to scalability. the more myself or any one person is too deep in the day-to-day work. But I think what the structure has enabled is us to have not only our core team of right now, it's about seven people.

Initially for a while, it was five. But we'd always, in addition to those five to seven, we'd always have a handful, six or seven other contributors coming in to handle specific tasks, swoop in when needed when things were kind of busier. that would have been almost impossible to manage if we didn't have a proper structure in place, proper rigor, like even project management software that I was reticent to rely upon. And, you know, Jamie had to convince me a little bit and successfully, even just ways of managing our time.

We still don't do formal timesheets or anything of that nature, but I certainly recognize the need to understand, you know, we're costing projects still in large part based on the time we put in and putting a value to those hours. So we have to know to some extent, maybe not down to the minute, but to some extent, you know, what's actually happening in reality. So we know, you know, are we able to sustain that? Do we can the same amount of people do more work?

Do we need more people? Uh so having more of that structure and not just kind of seeing which way the wind blowing to make decisions is important So I probably in my career have been too improvisational at times and that a strength Like anyone, their strengths are their weaknesses. But certainly, you know, I'm trying to use that same rigor to help manage my own time and figure out, okay, can I continue to do this, but also focus on not only developing the business, but promoting Safrina.

We're now kind of launching our refreshed brand. you know how can we ensure we put the right time into getting that out there and making sure people know about us so if an agency owner is listening who's maybe like two years behind where you're at what advice would you give them like what was that inflection point for you when you went from solo into agency like what happened and what advice would you give to an agency owner so first off to not sweat the details like I you know not I you know it's it's a weird analogy but I remember with my wife when we were having our first child you know all these people talking about having a birth plan and all these things and in hindsight you kind of laugh at all of that you just make sure the baby comes out healthy and and you do the best you can and work with the doctors and the experts to and so there's a lot of parallels to that where accept what you can control and what you can't.

And, you know, make each decision each day that to the best of your ability, but recognize that when you look back in six months, it's probably not going to be a linear path. You may end up in the same place. And when you zoom out, it may look like a, you know, sort of upward trajectory, but it's going to have a lot of little blips on the way. And some of them very positive.

And, you know, you may look back and say, wow, we wouldn't have got here without some of those blips and without having to figure things out and solve that problem that we didn't expect. So to kind of not sweat the fact that it's probably not going to go exactly as you envision it, my path certainly hasn't. The other part I would say is have constantly be having conversations with people in and around the business, whether it's just a way to catch up. You may realize coming out of a lot of those conversations that there's not going to be any direct benefit from a business standpoint.

I would say my entire business is built right now on the backs of those relationships and conversations, some of which, you know, I built over 20 plus years, but never thought of as a network or, you know, a source of business or anything along those lines. But, you know, kind of organically over time by doing the right thing, by being kind, by building rapport, being a reliable person, being a, I guess, decent person to work with and spend time with, they come back to help in huge ways.

I was doing another podcast sort of like this one early on in this time, about three years ago. And that and only that led to a former client kind of coming across it on LinkedIn and reaching out. And that became a major partnership for, you know, even to this day. So it's, there's so many things that happen by just having good conversations.

One person introduces you to the next person. And I can trace all of the business that we have right now with Safrina back to either our own prior working relationships or some connection to that. We have not done any, you know, formal lead generation or marketing of Safrina. And we need to start doing that as well.

I'm not suggesting to avoid that, but our entire business is so far built off of conversations, relationships, just being reliable and kind of saying what you're going to do and doing what you say over decades. So there's never a bad time to kind of be helpful and be a decent person, it will come back, whether you know it or not, it's going to come back to help you for sure. Yep. I love that.

Well, this is exactly the kind of conversation I wanted to be having on this show, John. So thank you so much for being so honest about the real stuff that worked and didn't work and not just the wins, but really kind of some of those things that you learned along the way. No, thank you. And thanks to you and your team.

I think I don't think we'd be where we are without DOT and without the model that you built because it was just something, again, being in the big network agency world, we never thought of fractional account management or project management as a thing that we would tap into. And I honestly can say Safrina wouldn't be what it is now or what it will hopefully become without DOT. So I very much appreciate that. And congrats to you on all the success.

Thank you, John. Well, where can people find you if they want to follow you and see what you're building? You can look me up on LinkedIn, Jonathan Kogan, J-O-N, no H, safrina.ca, S-E-P-H-R-I-N-A.

ca, and jcogan, J-C-O-G-A-N, at safrina.ca. And I probably should be out more, you know, whether TikTok and Instagram and you name it, I'll get my daughter to help me out with all that. But I'm on those platforms, maybe not in a professional sense, But yeah, find me on LinkedIn, come to our website, safrina.

ca, and we'd be happy to connect. Amazing. Well, if this episode hit home for you, please send it to another agency owner who needs to hear it. And if you want to talk about account management, you know where we're at.

But thank you so much for tuning in and we'll see you next week. Cheers to happy clients.