When is Executive Coaching the Answer?

Welcome to the Generous Benefits Podcast, where we help employers build people-first benefits that make business sense. I'm your host, Amanda Brumett. Today, we're joined by Kenzie Judge and Jessica Taylor, coaches that work with leaders and organizations to strengthen performance, clarity, and impact. In this episode, we unpack what executive coaching is, what it isn't, when it makes sense, and how organizations can evaluate whether it is the right investment for their leadership teams.

Well, Jessica and Kenzie, thank you so much for being here. I feel really lucky to have the talent of both of you on the show. So really appreciate that. Can we start by each of you just telling us who you are personally and professionally and how you got into coaching?

Well, thank you so much, Amanda, for having us. It's really a pleasure. And it's lovely to be joined by a friend and a colleague in Kenzie. So we're both coaches, obviously.

And we each have individual practices. My company is called Coaching Coalition. And I work at the intersection of coaching skills and executive coaching and working with corporate clients on building the coaching cultures. I have a PCC, which is a credentialed coaching credential, and we can talk a little bit more about what that is.

And also, you and I met via healthcare, and so a healthcare executive background. Okay, you're being humble. Give us the spiel on your healthcare background and your education. All the things.

Yeah, so I have an MBA in healthcare administration, And I was in healthcare management for 20 years as my corporate background. I was the VP of marketing and business development for a healthcare organization that worked with 170 plus healthcare organizations across the United States working in shared services. And as part of that work, I worked with HR directors and facilitated a lot of peer networks. And so that was one of my favorite parts.

And that's how I got into coaching, was working with those leaders and facilitating some of those deeper conversations about what is going on in both their personal and their professional life. Because, as we know, we're 360 degree human beings showing up at work. And so, yeah, one of those HR directors is actually the person who got me into coaching, pulled me aside and said, you know, you're facilitating all these great meetings. have you thought about coaching?

And that might suit your personality and your skill set and what you enjoy. And that weekend, I was curious and found a coaching training program. And so, that started me on my journey with with official executive coaching incredible well i'm so happy that our cross our paths crossed and that we got to meet and glad you landed in coaching me too me too and then kenzie how about you yes hi thanks for having me amanda and always good to be with jessica dear friend like many coaches just like jessica i had a corporate career here in san Diego, where I live, where both of us live, actually, we have a lot of defense.

So we have Navy bases, Marine bases. So my corporate career was for a defense contractor. We supported some of the military and some of the intelligence agencies. And when I quit, my husband and I traveled for a year.

And when I got back, I just knew I couldn't go back. And that's when I began to explore coaching, thanks to a friend who invited me to help do some consulting work with him. And I've been building my coaching practice ever since, so almost a decade now. And I also have an MBA, but mine is not in healthcare.

That's not my specialty. But that's from UCSD here in San Diego. And I have a coaching credential from the Hudson Institute up in Santa Barbara. And I'm also a PCC, which we'll talk about, I'm sure, like Jessica.

up. And my approach is, I like to say, I offer a soft place to do the hard work of transformation and growth. And I live here in San Diego, like I said, with my husband and my daughter. Awesome.

And then, Kenzie, correct me if I'm wrong, because I have a terrible memory, but you also went to UCLA? Is that where you did your master's, maybe? No, I have a couple master's, but not from UCLA. I did a bunch of coaching with executive MBA students at UCLA, and they are a wonderful, wonderful group of people.

I've so enjoyed working with them as a coach. Gotcha. Okay. As a USC Trojan, we generally try to avoid having anybody failure with UCLA on the show.

But no, I'm kidding. We've actually had several. I think you're third. It's fine.

UCSD is prettier. And at campus, I'd rather roam around, although both are honestly beautiful and great areas. Very gorgeous. Yeah.

We're lucky here. Yeah. Well, before we go any further, I try to avoid acronyms. And we can get into PCC more later.

but can you tell us either one of you what PCC stands for? Yeah. Yes, it's professional certified coach. And so it is a credential by the ICF, which is the International Coaching Federation, which is for your HR listeners, it is the SHRM of coaching.

And so that is our trade and professional association. okay they have just like a fellowship program they have a certification journey where it's a continuum of education an exam and then a pledge to a binding to a code of ethics in coaching and how we do our our operations and work with our clients fabulous if our non-hr people sherm is the society for human resources management yes try and avoid all the alphabet soup right yes Yes, exactly. Well, and in keeping with definitions and starting simple, Angie, what is executive coaching?

And probably just as important, what isn't it? Yeah, great question. Executive coaching, sometimes called leadership coaching, is a structured, confidential, one-on-one development relationship between a trained coach and a leader, typically within an organization. And this conversation that spreads out over time is focused on the leader's goals, their growth, their performance, tends to be very future-focused and very action-oriented, may look at behaviors and specific, you know, changes throughout their leadership style.

And the coach is not meant to give answers we ask powerful questions that help the client discover what is already within them to go out and do in the world it's grounded coaching is very grounded in the belief that the client is creative and resourceful and whole as a human and it is our job as coaches to unlock that potential within them and then what it is not It is not consulting. Coaching is not consulting. We are not meant to come in and solve all your problems for you.

We certainly help with problems that may arise, and we may ask you some intentional questions around those problems. We're also not meant to advise or mentor and necessarily share our own experiences. Sometimes that does come up, but it's really about the client and where they're at in their own journey as a leader. It's not therapy.

We are not trained therapists. They have their own separate training that they do. And we don't focus on the past, where we tend to be more future-focused. We obviously don't diagnose psychological problems or anything like that.

There is some overlap with therapy. I've had a number of clients say to me, you're like my business therapist or something like that. So you might see some overlap just in that we tend to go deep sometimes. And we may address identity issues or thought patterns, that kind of thing.

Which does sometimes overlap with what a therapist would do. Another thing coaching is not is a performance management tool. It is not meant to be for remediation. Sometimes it is coupled with a PIP, a performance improvement plan, those types of conversations.

But the best coaching is done for leaders that really want to be there. They're eager for the next stage of growth and development. And finally, it's not a quick fix. It's meant to be a conversation that happens maybe 6 to 12 months that leads to meaningful behavioral change and growth for the leader.

Yeah. Okay. Fascinating. That is all amazing.

And I'm actually shocked to hear that people combine it with a performance improvement plan because to me, executive coaching is an investment in growth. And I'm probably not making that investment on somebody I'm putting on a pip. Right. Maybe I'm stingy.

Right. Well, sometimes I'll just add, sometimes people bring in a coach to do the dirty work of helping someone who is struggling, and it doesn't work out great. I would not recommend that. Yeah, you're coaching them for their next position.

Yeah. And then you mentioned mentoring, you mentioned performance management, and then it wasn't those. Jessica, can you maybe get into exactly how it's different, especially for people that haven't experienced executive coaching? Yeah, and like there are some commonalities, and I love how Kenzie framed it up, is that there are some overlaps with some other modalities.

But coaching is really looking at improving performance. And it can dive into some of those emotional aspects of it, you know, confidence, how that shows up, how some of those behaviors, interactions with your colleagues or your co-workers or your boss or your clients even, you know, It really is looking at those kind of relationships and conversations. And so a coach is a thinking and a sounding board, a place to kind of test out ideas or some thoughts. And really, the coach is asking a lot of questions because they're uncovering some of those depths.

And so where it becomes into performance improvement management is how can you show up as the best person as at work? And instead of where mentoring is somebody saying well here's what I've done here's what's worked for me coaching is what works best for you and it really a lot of coaches use a lot of exercises and tools that focus on values and strengths and so it really comes from that basis of how do you show up as your best self and then I hear the term life coach a lot we've probably talked to this just for fun.

I teach yoga. I find lots of dual yoga teachers, life coaches, and I got no training on any of the things you all are talking about when I went through yoga training. So I am eager to hear how executive coaching is different than a life coach and when you would choose an executive coach and when you would choose a life coach or a therapist or a mentor or any of those things. I can speak to that.

Executive coaching often happens in an organizational context. So that's probably the biggest difference between a life coach and an executive coach. Again, as Jessica mentioned, the coaching, this executive coaching, leadership coaching is typically focused on leadership effectiveness. You might be working on.

Building strategic thinking skills or decision-making skills or delegating skills. You might also be working on team dynamics or how a person is showing up with their team that they're managing. So it's a lot of the stuff that comes with being a leader or a manager or a director. And then it's bound by what Jessica mentioned earlier, the International Coaching Federation's credentialing framework, where we have our own ethics, criteria, etc.

A life coach, I don't know that there is a credential or what the credential looks like for a life coach. So you might, you know, have to investigate if you're looking to hire a life coach, but it tends to offer a broader scope. All the life experiences, what you might be dealing with in your personal relationships or your personal life or building new habits of health and wellness, for example. So they tend to be quite different, the executive coaching in more of an organizational capacity and life coaching in maybe more of a personal capacity.

And then why does that matter for employers? Yeah, I think it's around the goals. And so often executive coaching is around how you're showing up at work and how that contributes to your team and also your company organization. And so a lot of times the coach, when they first start in an engagement, is what are the expected outcomes that you would like out of this?

Yeah. And so often there's an organizational component to it. Maybe, you know, what are the mission, vision and values of the organization and how do you fit into that and how do you work within that space together with your team? And so it's really looking at those future goals.

So, you know, the difference between like what a health coach might be would be, you know, your own personal, whatever your health function goals are, or you're looking at life. And then an executive coach is going to really think about how it fits together with your organization and your team. And then do you have people that land, I was going to say in your office, but in your Zoom, that, you know, you get into it and they've got a crippling fear of public speaking because of, you know, a traumatic incident in the third grade?

Something like that, do you end up saying, you know, I can work with you on X, Y, and Z, but I think on this piece, you actually need a therapist? Is there, does that end up happening? Yeah, that's why it's important to look for those ICF credentialed coaches, because as part of the code of ethics, it's when we identify something that is outside of our area of expertise, we refer out. Often coaches will have a network of referrals that they have vetted, that they trust and have gotten feedback from clients that it's been effective.

And so we will often have special, just like in healthcare, you have your primary care physician and then you have specialists that you might refer to. And so coaching is very similar. And so we might refer to a therapist if somebody is having anxiety or we notice that they're having trouble with attendance or health and illness might show up. We might refer to attorneys or any number of professionals that may be able to help a person within that specific scope.

Let's get into the research. I love data. I love evidence-based work. And there's a lot of evidence out there for coaching and its effectiveness in improving leadership capacity, decision-making, engagement, organizational outcomes.

So what would you share in that arena? Yeah, I think I can take this one a little bit and jump in anytime. So with, again, we keep mentioning the International Coaching Federation because it is such a rich resource for coaches. We also have an obligation, and with coaches it's not really an obligation.

There are continuous learners found by nature, but always continuous education and looking for the latest. And so the International Coaching Federation does sponsor every year with PricewaterhouseCoopers, so a third party, is conducting evidence-based research on the effectiveness of coaching and the different modalities within that. And what ICF has found is that coaching can increase self-confidence and reported work performance by up to 70%, and often more. And so this is reported together with the coachees as well as the organization.

And so they're corroborating that research from both sides of, you know, of the equation when a coaching engagement and also organizations like Corn Ferry. Gallagher, the insurance company we were talking about earlier, just before we jumped on. And a lot of these organizations have vested interest in understanding their coaching programs and the coaching effectiveness there. So they will often provide studies on behalf of their clients and publish those.

And so like Korn Ferry and Gallagher have also calculated ROI and how that affects their business outcomes. And the stats there are anywhere from 19 to 39% are noticing ROI in performance and outcomes in business. So whether that would be revenue revenue. Or one that they particularly measure is retention.

So when employees engage in coaching, does that help keep some of their high performers? And so that one is, you know, if anyone is looking to measure effectiveness of coaching, that metric in particular is very easy to identify as something that's measurable. And anecdotally, I personally have had great experience with it as a young executive with HCA. I was so fortunate that our CEO.

Invested in all of us, and it was incredible. And then later on in my career, just about a year and a half ago, I actually went through a program with Cornberry, and it was so cool to do it in this second half of life when I could just dream about what I want to be, what I want to do. And yeah, it's so useful. It really is.

Kenzie, I saw lots of nodding. Did you have something you wanted to add on the data piece? No, no. I'm disagreeing with how powerful and transformational it can be.

As I've seen it so many times with my own clients. And I just enjoyed your story too, Amanda, about how it's been beneficial in your own life. That's great. Yeah.

Yeah. The first time around, I feel like I learned what not to do. And then the second time I got to play with who do I want to be. Great.

It's so wonderful. Yeah. Sorry, since you mentioned Korn Ferry also, if I can give a shout out to them because they have a coaching program and they partner together with an organization called Year Up. And they work with populations that are underrepresented or under-resourced.

And they have a career development program and training skills and getting them into Fortune 500 companies. And then Corn Fairy helps support that once they're already in their organization and have been there about a year. They have volunteer coaches that are credentialed coaches, provide some like anywhere from 6 to 12 free coaching sessions for those early young executives and helping them on their journey. It's a wonderful thing that they do.

I love anybody that's giving back to the community. And then when do we know, Kinsey, when it's time for an organization to bring in an executive coach? Does everybody need it? Are there certain signals that they should be watching for to say, hmm, coaching might be right here?

Sure. Yeah, there's a lot. But let me just cover maybe a couple. The first would be if a client or an employee or a new leader comes and asks for it.

They want it. I think that's a great green light of this person is ready for whatever the next level might be, and they're eager to do some growth and development. So that's a great green light to consider executive coaching or leadership coaching. Another is transition moments when a client is in a new role maybe they're a first-time manager or executive they might need that extra support they might need that extra time to reflect on how they want to show up in this new role particularly if it's maybe the first time they've managed people the first time they've been responsible for business of whatever it might be revenue, et cetera.

New big responsibilities. So coaching can be a great support for those types of clients. Another is just an inflection point. I like to use the example of a lot of clients often have amazing technical skills, but they've never been trained as a leader.

And often coaching can be a really great support to them as they're beginning their leadership journey. They, again, have showed up and been incredibly successful on the technical side, and now they need to influence people or now they need to manage people. And that can be very tricky for some folks. So having a coach to support them through that process.

And so, you know, help figure out how you want to navigate some of those new skills and experiences can be really helpful. Coaches are often brought in or another green light I would say is when you're using assessment data, many coaches have been trained in specific assessments or 360s where you're gathering feedback from everybody around that person. Knowing what to do with that assessment data or that 360 data is a coach's sweet spot. Now how do we use this and move forward in your growth and development as a leader because it can feel like drinking from a fire hose whatever the assessment or the 360 data looks like so the coach can support the employer the manager leader and okay now what's next what do we do with this how do we want to turn this into actions or behaviors moving forward and then you mentioned this earlier Amanda, just high potentials.

When you have employees who are moving up quickly or you can just see that they are ready. A coach is a great way to support them, invest in them, and give them some great tools and reflections for their growth and their journey moving forward into leadership. So I hope that helps, yeah, identify some of the great times to bring in a coach. It does.

I encounter that high technical skills success. And now you're the leader of an organization a lot in healthcare. I see it happen a lot in benefits. I see it in lots of industries.

And I'm curious your take on this because people know I went to business school. So they call me and they're like, do I need to go get an MBA? And my answer is usually, why don't you start with an executive coach? And then if you need to do some baseline education on reading a P and L, profit and loss, things like that, you can.

But you're not going to learn in an MBA program what I would learn from sitting in sessions with you all for a year on learning. How to do performance evaluations, how to have a difficult conversation. So feel free to tell me I'm giving terrible advice if I am because I need to change it. But what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, sure. I'm sure Jessica has great thoughts here too. You can do dueling coaches and you can decide. Yeah.

I think it is. I think your advice is great. I mean, I would continue giving that advice. If there are business skills that they need, they can go take a class.

They can learn online. They can use an AI tool to support them with that. But the reflection and the people skills and the ability, as you mentioned, a great one, which is how to have hard conversations, this comes up in coaching all the time. It is not something that is innate in all of us, but it is vital for leaders to be able to do that.

And having a coach to practice that with or figure out how you want to navigate those hard conversations, that can, all of these types of conversations are a great tool for a highly technical leader who's used to being probably wildly successful and now thrown into a whole different pool that requires new skills, new types of conversations. It can just be a great way to support them with this new world that they're navigating. Yeah. I mean, a metaphor we often use in coaching, of course, is the roadmap.

And so when coaching is really helpful is when you're trying to determine the destination. Where is it that you want to go? where do you want to be? And skills training is like the map.

So how are you going to get there? What are the step turn-by-turn directions? And so that can be a really good way to think about when is training the appropriate modality and when is coaching would be more effective. Is really, coaching is more of that high level, what's Where do we want to be in the future?

And, you know, there can be the training of the skills that, you know, that's more of like your MBA. Like, do you need more, more tools in your tool belt, as they say? Super helpful. I'm glad to know I have not been advising people wrong.

Now I'll just be more specific. Call Jessica and Kinsey. Talk to them both. And then, Kinsey, I'm so glad you mentioned the 360 eval.

Again, wildly valuable in my own life as a very young baby executive. I did my first one. My bosses loved me. My subordinates loved me.

My peers hated me. And I had to do like a whole 180 of how I interacted with them in order to be successful. And I literally would have never known if I hadn't been done a 360. And so, yeah, massively useful tool.

What a great example of how it can be used. I was glad I learned early. Yes, right. Exactly.

Yeah. I mean, and to the point of like the coach being the safe space to talk about that because they're outside your work unit. And so, yes, you probably want to have conversations with those peers about how you can work better together. But having a conversation with somebody about it first can be so helpful to prepare for those conversations.

Yeah, I like that coach is the safe space. Definitely. And then, Jessica, we've talked to him about this in the beginning, when coaching isn't appropriate. When are there times that we need to do skills training or change expectations or help someone find their next job rather than coach them?

Yeah. So not to use you as a personal example. Please, please pick on me. But let's say that there is somebody who is having challenging relationships with other people on the team or their subordinates, which is often what we see is that there is a difference in management style.

Or there's something that is deeper underlying there. And so it may just not be a fit. And so it may be that there's a skills gap there or an experience gap. And so that's really when coaching is not appropriate because that is something that can't be resolved within a, you know, a sounding board type conversation.

That's a gap that needs to be resolved with a different modality. And so that can be kind of the measuring stick of when coaching can be used and when something else should be considered and then also you know having conversations at the leadership level of the culture and who is the team you know the classic Jim Collins who is it that we have on the bus and and is that how is that all fitting together and so it can be a you know part of that large larger conversation of, you know, when to bring in coaching.

So oftentimes we will see somebody that comes in who has been told that they need coaching. And so kind of like that voluntold, or that they're told that as part of their future employment that they need to receive coaching. And that is often when, you know, again, with the ICF training, we're, you know, we hit a timeout there and we had to pause and be like, is coaching really the right space for this kind of conversation? Because it's a resource.

It costs time or money or both, and we need to use those valuably. Yes, it's definitely. And then when we are going to move to coaching, and Kenzie, I'll ship this over to you. What should we look at on internal versus external?

What are the advantages and limitations by doing it in-house versus bringing in an outside entity? There's pros and cons to both internal and external coaches, as you might imagine. The pros to, let's talk about internal coaches first. Internal coaches, some of the pros are that they understand the culture.

They understand the context of the organization, the systems, the language that is used there. Some of those big picture organizational dynamics, the internal politics, they understand a lot of that. And it may be more cost effective to have an internal coach if you've got those resources already. Sometimes those internal coaches are HR or learning and development folks in the company.

And then some of the cons of having internal coaches, we haven't mentioned it yet, but confidentiality is a huge piece of coaching. Jessica mentioned the safe space. It is meant to be completely confidential. The problem with an internal coach is sometimes the perception of confidentiality is missing, whether it is or not, the perception of it.

And that may in fact affect the relationship that's built between the coach and the client. Sure. There can also be interesting power dynamics. If you've got an internal coach who technically ranks lower than their executive level client, that can be a little bit tricky.

Sometimes, again, with the confidentiality piece, they may not be seen as a neutral partner. They may be seen as someone who has some skin in the game for whatever that may look like. Let's talk about external coaches for Maness. The pros of external coaches are, they offer, they are maybe more perceived to offer that true confidentiality.

They don't know what's going on internally. They only know what the client is telling them. They don't have any agenda. There's nothing going on under the surface there.

Part of coaching, we haven't mentioned this piece either. Part of coaching is pushing back on the client. If you're external, you may feel, as a coach, you may feel more freedom to do that. If you're internal, you may not feel that same freedom to push back, again, depending on dynamics or levels or all of that.

The cons of an external coach, it might be a little bit more costly. There may be a learning curve for the coach to get up to speed on that organizational context that the internal coach might already know. Generally speaking, I've heard this before. For your managers, you might want to look for internal coaches.

For your more executive level or director level, you might want to look for external coaches. That makes sense. Sometimes that hybrid model can be kind of nice, and it suits everybody well. It's just something to consider, but it depends wildly on the culture, the context, the funds available, all those kinds of things.

So there's pros and cons to both, I would say. Okay, so that all makes sense, Kenzie. Definitely pros and cons on both. Jessica, for an organization, like what's the deciding factor?

How do they know which route they need to go? I think what, you know, Kenzie just gave such a complete picture of, you know, the pros, cons, internal and external. And so when an organization is thinking about bringing in coaching, it can be for thinking about the levels within their organization and the size of their organization. And so often at the top levels that, you know, if it's a larger organization of 500 employees or more, they probably will bring in some external coaches for their executive levels.

And then once you get to that 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 level of employees, that's when they start thinking about developing internal coaching programs and able to have a team and resources for those individual contributors and some of those managers. Certainly in Lincoln, as we see in the organizational ladder, as people are moving up, having that internal coaching support can really be helpful. And again, like we were talking about the ROI of coaching, you know, when you're thinking about retention and keeping, you know, your high performers within.

Having access to coaches is reported as a huge level of satisfaction within an organization. And certainly, definitely within those younger generations, Gen Zs are noting it down within their interview process and asking those questions. And do you have an internal, you know, access to coaches? And so that can be, you know, part of what an organization looks at.

Now, the smaller organizations, there's external coaches can be just such a great resource to have on board. And then also you can find the right coach for your organization. Sometimes you do want somebody with industry experience or knowledge. And sometimes it's really helpful to have somebody without any of those influences at all.

So it kind of depends on the goals that you want to achieve. Yeah, I like that framework you lined out. So say I'm an organization. I'm ready.

I know that we've got someone or multiple someones that need coaching. And assume we're going external. How do they go about evaluating and shopping for a coach and comparing them? And should they talk to several?

What are your recommendations there? Yeah. I would start with credentials. We've talked already about the International Coaching Federation.

There are three levels of certification for coaches. The ACC. Associate Certified Coach, you have to have 100 hours of coaching. You have to have received supervision and done the test.

And, you know, so you've done a bunch of things. So that's the first level. So PCC, which is where Jessica and I are, we have over 500 hours of coaching. We've done the tasks, we've received supervision, et cetera, et cetera, our continuing education.

And then there's MCC, Master Certified Coach. Those folks have 2,500 plus hours and have done all the other, checked the boxes. So that's what you're looking for you want a credentialed coach ACC PCC or MCC so I would you know evaluate that they've gone through a credentialed training program that they have a credentialed themselves the other piece is the fit the chemistry between the coach and the client I often recommend when I get people coming to me for a chemistry call I strongly recommend they speak to other coaches as well.

And I often recommend other coaches for them to speak to. I know Jessica does this too. The chemistry between the coach and the client really matters. It can, I believe the same to be true for therapists.

You want to find the right person for you. You kind of get the warm and fuzzy. So if you are an HR professional or an L&D and you're bringing in coaches, I would let your employees speak to, do a chemistry call with two to three coaches and let them pick the one that they felt they had the best chemistry with, because it really does matter. You might want to ask them questions about their coaching philosophy, how they approach the coaching conversations.

You might want to evaluate, just make sure they're understanding on the ethics pieces. Of course, that's part of our training, so they should be, but you might want to ask them about it. Another is if your organization uses any assessments or tools like the Hogan Assessment or Leadership Circle or Gallup-Clifton Strengths, If you already have that built-in language in your organization, you might want to find coaches that speak that language or have that training in that particular assessment.

So that might be an additional way to pick the right coach for your people. You can always ask for references for coaches and, you know, maybe ask to speak to former clients. That's an option. I've still had nobody do that for me, but that certainly would be a great option if you wanted to talk to former clients as well.

I really like your advice to talk to two to three. And I run into this with consultants as well. And I and people say, oh, I liked the first one. I'm just going to hire them.

And my thing is, I know it takes a little bit more time, but maybe you like number two or three better. And if you don't, you're only going to feel better about your decision. You'll just invest that time. So I'm really glad you advised that.

Yeah, it is really time well spent. And yeah, and almost all coaches offer discovery sessions or a single session at a paid cost where they are going to deliver some kind of value as part of that. Maybe they interpret an assessment or some kind of piece, but you can kind of test drive the relationship and see. And then Jessica, say I'm an HR representative today.

I have bought into coaching. I know we need it for some person in our organization. What can I do to build the business case for why this needs to happen? Yes, it's obvious.

Coaching usually starts within HR because they have had experience, firsthand experience with coaches. And so it's often something that they would like to see. And so, yeah, they're talking with the leadership team about this is an investment. And not to sound like broken record, but going back to that retention piece is often the best way that they can demonstrate the ROI for bringing in coaching into that program is that if we've got the risk of seeing somebody leave, they can oftentimes quantify the hours and the dollars invested in what it would take to replace that kind of person and at what level.

And so of course it can be a dollars conversation, but then, you know, the mission, vision, and values of the organization and how that can, how coaching can complement that and help build that within, throughout the different levels of the organization, that's often a really productive way to have a conversation with the leaders is, you know, and, you know, HR directors can use coaching skills themselves. And so, you know, what is important to you? What is the intended outcome that we would like to see and then kind of have a framework and maybe just a little bit of a wireframe of what a coaching program could look like and so that they can really envision what that would look like six months a year or five years from now and what that would lead to and anyway it's they can just really paint that picture of what their organization could look like as with coaching as part of it.

Sure. Yeah, that paints a really nice picture, makes it easy to understand. Well, you have both been a wealth of knowledge. If you had just one final advice to give to people about coaching, both of you, what would it be?

My best advice is don't wait for a crisis. Get to your leader, support them before they've reached burnout or before they've lost a bunch of people because they weren't a great people manager. Don't wait for the crisis. Let coaching support you in a proactive manner and help develop those skills and achieve those goals earlier in the process.

Just don't wait for something to fall apart before you bring in extra support. That's great advice. And Jessica? It really is.

So to build on what Kenzie just said, it's just because coaching is, you get out of it what you put into it. And so because it is an exchange of energy, if you're being proactive about it, then you've got the ability to show up as your full self to the process. And so that really can create exponential growth. Whereas if you're showing up and coaching with a crisis, which coaches definitely won't turn you away, but as the coachee, you're going to get so much more from it when you are anticipating what might show up.

When do you get that promotion? Reaching out to a coach right away before you start finding yourself mired in relationships or struggles. So really at those early stages of something that you've got a change or something you've got envisioned as a change that you want to see happen, that's really the best time to engage with a coach. Fantastic.

Well, thank you both so much for all of your time, your knowledge, and your passion about this really important subject. Thank you for having us both. What a delight. Yeah, really happy to share.

Yeah, thank you so much for having us, Amanda. Big thanks to Kenzie Judge and Jessica Taylor for helping us clarify when executive coaching is the right tool and when it isn't. This is the Generous Benefits Podcast, where we keep it practical, personal, and people first.