Social dialogue at 50: Lessons for the future

Speaker A: Good afternoon and, uh, welcome, uh, to our ILC lunchtime conversation, uh, going live here, uh, at the International Labour Conference at, uh, Palais des nations in Geneva. Fifty, um, years ago in 1976, the ILO adopted Convention 144 on Tripartite Consultation. Um, the rationale was that fundamental notion that you cannot solve labor challenges without all their voices in the same room. Government, uh, employers, workers, speaking, listening, uh, and finding common ground. Today, 87% of countries have some form of national, uh, social dialogue institution, which is a big plus. That's one of the prime legacies, uh, of convention 144. Um, 50 years on. The question is more pertinent, um, than.

Speaker B: Than ever.

Speaker A: Uh, we have a world shaped by digital transformation, uh, climate pressures, demographic shifts and geopolitical tensions. So is tripartite, uh, consultation, um, still relevant? Is the question for today. That's what we're going to, uh, explore right here, right now. And to guide this conversation, uh, I'm very pleased to welcome, uh, Her Excellency, uh, M. Mrs. Emma Hippolyt, Minister, uh, for Equity, Social Justice, Gender, Older Persons, Labor Cooperatives and Consumer affairs of St. Lucia. Welcome. Um, we have also Ambassador Michele Cervone Durso, uh, representing the European Union delegation here. Uh, welcome, um, Mr. Ulan Tazibayev, advisor to the Chairman of the Presidium of the National Confederation of Employers of kazakhstan. Welcome. And Mr. Uh, Omar Farouk Osman, uh, General Secretary of the Federation of Somali Trade Unions Festu. Welcome. Welcome to all four of you. Um, this is how it's going to work. Ah, first we're going to, um, talk about real national and regional perspective. What does tripartite consultations actually do? Where has it worked? Then we're going to look how Convention 144 is still relevant in the changing world of work. Um, I mentioned digital transition, but we also have green jobs, emerging labor market challenges. So can social dialogue institution meet, uh, these challenges? Uh, finally, we'll wrap up with key reflection and, uh, takeaways. M. This conversation is being broadcast, uh, live and will become part of the ILO Future of Work podcast series. So whether you're here, uh, watching or listening later, your voices matter. At the end, we'll obviously take, um, questions. Uh, let me start with a straightforward question, and we need concrete example here. Minister Hippolyte. Um, St. Lucia has just ratified Convention 144. Why, um, what changed your government? Um, thinking. And what do you hope this convention will actually, um, do for your country?

Speaker C: Uh, first, let me start by thanking the ILO for giving St. Lucia, the opportunity to participate in this very important conversation as it relates to tripartite, um, conversation. We in St. Lucia sees the whole issue of social dialogue as key to national development. It is a strategy that we have embraced, and within our government, uh, the whole agenda of putting people first aligns with that whole conversation. Um, why have we ratified convention 144 now? Maybe I'll start by giving a little brief history about where we were and where we are now. Um, in the 80s, St. Lucia's economy was based on agriculture, especially bananas being exported to the UK um, in the 90s, this changed because of a challenge at the WTO by the government of the United States of America. This impacted us greatly. So from the 1990s, we moved from an economy based on agriculture to one based on services. And, um, at present we have 85% of our GDP coming from services, with 65% coming from tourism. So this, uh, impacted the whole issue of our trade, our labor market. And it was because of that complexity that we felt we needed to put structure in our conversation with both the employers and the workers representative. We were having conversations before, but by ratifying the convention, we felt it was so important that we were getting the support of the ILO to do so. And, uh, more than anything else as well, we took that opportunity in April to ratify the convention, as well as establishing our first national tripartite advisory Committee.

Speaker A: Now, what happens when you disagree? What do you actually find, uh, common ground, um, in that moment?

Speaker C: Well, you have a typical example now. There is a discussion in committee for the transition. Um, and the key thing is, if you have an innate understanding of the work that you do. For us in St. Lucia, our focus is people first. Government understands that, the union understands that, and the employers understand that. So we sit at the table and we put the people first. As long as we put the people first, we will sit, we will discuss, we will negotiate, and we do what you have a, ah, give and take, and we will arrive at consensus.

Speaker A: So that's the key point, I guess, isn't it? How do you move from consultation to consensus? Okay, um, in your case in Kazakhstan, uh, Ulan Tazibayev, from your perspective, what's the practical value to employers of engaging in tripartite consultation under Convention 144?

Speaker B: Yes, thank you for the question. And first of all, congratulations. That's a very big decision and very useful. And we actually, uh, seen the use of consultations, uh, of this three party, uh, dialogue. It's a very crystal clear benefits for the employers first of all, uh, you can see the first, uh, effect is that, uh. You can participate in decision making about regulation in an early stage. And this increases, uh, predictability for business, uh, and drastically. Uh, second is, uh. You can affect those decisions to make it, uh, to make your decisions better. But the most important, I think, is, uh, uh, within this mechanism. You build a good trust relations between three parties. And that makes you more prepared for any challenges that you may face. And this, uh, crystal clear benefit is clear, uh, for all three parties in Kazakhstan. And I think, uh, we're doing a very good progress in even deepening this.

Speaker A: So you've made the case that tripartite, uh, dialogue is good for business. Okay, but let me ask you, um, if dialogue, um, shows a slowdown, uh, in decision making, let's say in a crisis situation, for instance, a pandemic or an economic shock, does tripartite consultation still work?

Speaker B: Ah, absolutely. Ah, and we actually have seen, uh, the cases when, uh. The unilateral decisions, they are, uh, made faster, but they are not necessarily good. And sometimes you have to revisit them. And uh. Uh, actually dialogue is, um, not slowing down. This depends on the quality of your dialogue. And uh. If you have a very good quality dialogue, you make a proper, uh, decision with less negative, uh, consequences, uh, and you win after all. So, uh, the main goal is to, uh. Reach to the point when you don't spend m much time on talking. But you have the level of trust that makes your dialogue very fast and, uh, effective.

Speaker A: So that's a crucial question. Can social dialogue institution move, um, at the speed of crisis? Um, I'm coming to you, Omar, uh, Farouk. Um, I want your perspective from a worker's experience. What's the actual difference, um, that Convention 144 makes on the ground? If you can show me a concrete win, that would be perfect.

Speaker D: Um, thank you very much. Um, this is very important discussion. And especially in our own context. As a country that came from civil war and crisis, um, accepting and welcoming social dialogue was a very difficult journey. And especially appreciating the role of social partners, trade unionists and employers as, ah, an active agent of socioeconomic. Was a difficult one where people would not appreciate in government, the transitional government in our country. Would not see trade unionists as an important actor. And we have had that history where we said we do not want it to be spectators in the labor market in the socioeconomic issues, but an active decision maker, uh, that sits at the table. And we have unique history where we have faced 11 years of egregious human and labor rights repression in our country that lasted for 11 years. So with the help of the ILO that has mediated the discussions in the year 2019, we came to the table, the government, the trade unions and employers. And that is the first time that we have agreed for social dialogue to start. That was 2019. And as trade unionists, one of the things we have been demanding was the ratification of the ILO Convention 144. And our government was resisting then. And then we said, okay, look, it's give and take. Social dialogue is not something to be afraid of. Trade unionists and employees, our, uh, partner is in progress. We can have discussions. So when 2019 officially social dialogue was institutionalized in Somalia, and that is the formation of the Somali National Tripartite Consultative Council, where we have three members, employers have three members, and the government has five members, then we discuss it how we can institutionalize and inculcate social dialogue. And one of the key issues that we as trade unionists championed was the ratification and the domestication of ILO Convention 14 4. And we are very happy that two years after the social dialogue was institutionalized, we agreed as a tripartite, the ratification of 144. And it was ratified after two years. And now last year, it was officially domesticated in our new labor law.

Speaker A: So these are very concrete wins. Thank you. Um, um, let me ask you, what's the difference between a genuine, um, influential social dialogue and, um, some consultation process? Where do you see the difference?

Speaker D: Um, we always say genuine social dialogue is the right thing. Honorable minister, set people at the forefront. And for us, in our case in Somalia, we say people centered social dialogue. You need to take your selfies with the people. People must be with you. So the junior social dialogue is very important. And the difference between union social dialogue and performative is the influence. For example, in our case in Somalia, what we said was, we do not want a fictional social dialogue just to tick the empty boxes, to say we had a meeting of the employers and trade unionists, uh, for that date, and we discussed that when decisions were already met, when the decision is, the government wants to present the decisions to us. We said nothing about us, without us. If you want to talk about us, the labor market, the key actors are, uh, the employers and the workers. So share the decisions. We are decision makers at the table and not ticking empty boxes. So the difference between performative and genuine social dialogue is the influence. If the employers and the workers can bring their legitimate voice at the table to discuss, it's even good for the government. It makes even our government is beautiful in the eyes of the international community because it shows that our government is embracing democracy in labor relations.

Speaker E: Very good.

Speaker A: So we just heard the uh, tripartite constituents. Um, the European Union has embedded social dialogue, um, uh, into trade agreements and uh, sustainability frameworks. Ambassador Cervo Nedurso um, from the EU's uh, vantage point watching countries ratify Convention 144, watching them build the mechanism. What have you seen working and what is still broken? What should be uh, improved.

Speaker E: Yeah. First of all, uh, really Warm congratulations to St. Lucia that you really joined and I think it's honored to speak up to you Minister. Ah, I had the honor also following the pathway of Somalia country in full transition. So that's great and important. Um, I want to speak a little bit about the experience but to answer your question I think and we heard also from the speakers just now, it's important that we have a structured process that that's significant. Uh, um, I uh, mean the principles undermining the convention um, are key. I mean effective social dialogue depends on 1 legitimacy, 2 independence and 3 the representation value of the, of the employers and the workers to refer actually just now. This is why I think ratification is important in the eu. I'll come back in a second. Has taken a number of steps in terms of ratification in terms of what we are, are doing to uh, make it happen. It's uh, I mean we have actually social dialogue is enshrined in our treaties. It's very much in our DNA. Article 154 of the treaty of the European Union provides for uh, consultation with European social partners. I mean we have a very complex uh, set of dialogues taking place. 44 sectoral dialogue committees which consists of 65 European Employers Association, 15 European Trade Union, um, federations. Uh, I mean some of the issues that we are closely looking at at the moment in terms of jobs also is the quality of the jobs. We have Equality roadmap also uh, directive of adequate. We have a specific directive of adequate minimum um, wages. In terms of the challenges which you asked and I think it's relevant for the ongoing ilc uh how are we adapting to new technology to AI There's a report now being presented also. I see that as one of the key challenges and um, you know I think there we're looking of having a. It's important to have an approach which is ethical, integrated and inclusive. Uh, it's uh, I think essential. A human centered approach promoting decent work is for us essential.

Speaker A: Okay. Thank you Ambassador. So what I'm um, hearing from the first round of uh, uh, questions and answers, um, is that convention 144, uh, works best when all three constituents uh, are genuinely empowered. Um, that tribati, um, consultation needs to be institutionalized, that speed matters, that consultation can paralyze the crisis response and that evidence uh, or impact uh, of impact matters, workers and employers need to see that the dialogue is actually um, changing the outcomes. Um, so those are the practical lessons, uh, from 50 years of convention one, uh, hundred 44. Now let's look ahead and uh, we're living in a moment, um, where the world is into a massive transformation. And the question is, how can Convention 144 help us cross 20, 26 and beyond? And Omar, let me go back to you again here. Um, in this context of digital and green transition, what new forms of social dialogue do workers need?

Speaker D: Yeah, um, social dialogue is needed more than ever now. Why? Because the nature of the world of work has changed and continues to change. A lot of dynamics are coming and effective social dialogue requires anticipatory participation instead of reaction because that is what helps us in shaping um, in the labor market in our own context. Somalia, one of the things we feel social dialogue and 1 4, 4 is needed is the way we use it not only to address issues in the labor market, but equally in resolving conflicts and crises in our country. Where we say tripartite plus Michiel is here who has been involved in the peace processes in Somalia. And one of the issues is that we said it is not only the government, employers and the trade unions meeting. It's also the clan chiefs, the community leaders, the civil society. So that spirit of tripartite plus we were using social dialogue. So it's not only something confined to only labor relations, but something go beyond labor relations in promoting peace, stability and um, the transition to democracy. So, and in this particular context, when we talk about green economy, when we talk about just transition, the key to it is social dialogue because we have to agree because the nature of work is changing. And um, we do not want workers for example to be called when the decision has been made to change the nature of work. No, we want to be at the table at the get go and be discussing and saying no, this is the changing of the nature of work. And that is. I can give you another good example that on the case of just transition, Somalia has become the first country in Africa that enshrined just transition in law. We have just transitioned and green economy in our national transformation plan in NTP and we have international policy on just transition and all this across the board. We have used social dialogue to engage our interlocutories in the government and our interlocutories in the employers um sector. So that's why we are saying that even when we agree that just transition green economy has to be uh, politically uh, programmatically and legal wise be inculcated in our country, its implementation must also be accompanied by social dialogue. And that is when Convention 144 is very key in realizing in our own

Speaker A: context um, uh, Ulan, uh from uh Kazakhstan, employers Kazakhstan. So what does effective um social dialogue look like when you're managing digital platform regulation, green job creation, uh, labor market disruption at the same time. All this at the same time?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a good question. And actually uh, I think uh we are already facing these challenges. We are at the stage when we are facing these uh new trends. Everything is changing very rapidly and uh, the stakes are higher. So you make a decision, you face the consequences very fast. You cannot just uh, uh wait and uh, try to analyze something in the past, you analyze something in the future. So uh, I think uh the importance of dialogue uh is rised up to the sky. And uh, for example for us in Kazakhstan we had our luxury. We have over 25 years of uh being in convention 144. So we had institutionalized everything. I mean this is due to and thanks to the government which is very like say responsible for the uh, for the decisions they make internationally first of all. So implementation was formally done at the place, then started to build up some trust, build up some understanding of the process. And now I think Dialogue 30 is in Kazakhstan. And we are trying and uh, having in mind things that you asked for, I mean the uh, current trends and very rapidly uh changing world. We're trying to even make the dialogue even earlier early stages. So for example uh, before the three party committee we will have a working group of three parties. They have a luxury of not doing the policy and they have a luxury of discussing things before their positions are polarized on three parties. So uh, improving the quality. So what we are trying to find is like fast response for changing world, uh making decision better and building up trust to the point when you don't need much time uh to get to the proper decision.

Speaker A: Um Ambassador, um Cervoni Durso from the eu um, you touched upon the subject a little bit earlier. You mentioned uh, AI. So what role does Convention 144 play or should it play in EU governance in this Environment.

Speaker E: No, it plays a huge role both say domestically in the EU but also externally. Um, I mean domestically, the European Commission and uh, basically all our European cross industry social partners are implementing what we call a new pact for social dialogue which establishes a framework for concrete action, some I alluded before taken by the Commission and it strengthens very much social ah dialogue uh, and promotes very much stronger consultation amongst uh, parties. Um, I mean for us it's pretty key that we have an institutional structured process that like was mentioned. I mean that enhances legitimacy, independence and the representation of the organizations. I think also the point of Omar is also of inclusivity is also very important also for us. Uh, I mean all groups have to be involved. Uh, it's, it's pretty essential and we try to translate this externally. Externally. Um, I also would like to mention because it's linked, there's also challenge of ratification of fundamental ILO conventions, uh C87 and, and C98. And we're trying to, to link this to our trade agreements, what we call GSP Generalized System of Preferences plus to make sure also uh, that to encourage our partners to ratify, uh, and to take forward important um, international label and human rights, uh, conventions.

Speaker A: Thank you Minister. Um, Hippolyt, um, as a government that just ratified convention 144, um, how are you going to apply it in the context of those, a massive transition that we just mentioned. Congratulations as well though.

Speaker C: Thank you. And I also want to take this moment to congratulate the ILO on this 50th anniversary. Um, you asked the key question, how are we going to apply it? I looked on the board and the Director General, one of his quotes says the future of work will not be determined by technology alone but by the policies, institutions and social dialogue that guide it. And that is what St. Lucia has embraced. That is why we ratified 144. That is why we spend quite a bit of time trying to strengthen the ministry responsible for labor. Now when you look at what is happening in terms of the economy, um, you've raised quite a few issues that's impacting us in the future of work. You mentioned AI, we are discussing here the platform economy. Um, we have the whole issue of the green issue of uh, climate change. These issues must be discussed openly by our government and um, at the table, the committee that is there to advise us, we need to sit, we need to develop policies, we need to advise our cabinet and then we make decisions we almost anticipate, but in doing so they would be coming to the table with the position of their stakeholders. So the employers would be discussing this, the employer rep at the table would be discussing this with the Chamber of Commerce and all the employers, members of the employers federation. The worker representatives would be discussing the subject with, uh, all the trade union members and so on. And as well, when you look at especially the whole issue of AI and the platform economy, our young people, we must not keep them out of that equation. And in St. Lucia we've taken the bold step in terms. We noticed there was a gap in the area of finance. And we have what we call the Youth Economy Agency. And what it does, it allows us to focus on where the future of work is, engage our young people. We have the National Youth Council as well, so that they influence that final decision as to how the government.

Speaker A: Yeah, thank you, Minister. So, um, let me try to sum, uh, up a little bit of what we heard now. Um, in 50 years, um, convention 144 has established one powerful principle. And that principle is that governments, um, employers and workers must consult together on labor and social policy. But in today's world, tai by tie consultation, um, is no longer optional. Okay? It's more necessary than ever. I think we all agree here. And convention one for four turns, uh, 50 this year. But, but actually the real work starts now. So, um, I would like to thank the panelists for all their contribution. The insight. Um, this is authentic, challenging conversation. Uh, thank you everyone for, uh, watching and listening. We hope you will see you again for more conversation, uh, on these key issues, uh, shaping the world of work. Um, don't forget to follow the ILO on social media, uh, for updates and, and Insight, um, Twitter, Xlo, Facebook, International Labour Organization. We have LinkedIn, International Labor Organization, Instagram, Lorg and YouTube, ILOTV. Until next time, take care and uh, goodbye from all of us at the ilo.