Good jobs, strong businesses: productivity and responsible business conduct

Yvonne Bielavetia: Good afternoon and welcome to our lunchtime conversations brought to you by the ILO's Future of Work podcast series. I'm, um, Yvonne Bielavetia and we're coming to you from the International Labour Conference here in the Palais de Nacion in Geneva. Each day we look at some of the key questions shaping the world of work. Across many economies, growth remains uneven and um, productivity growth has slowed. The challenge is not only how to grow, but how to do so in ways that create decent work while also supporting strong and competitive businesses. Today we're exploring a question that sits at the heart of this. Can responsible business conduct help create the conditions for both stronger business performance and better jobs? Businesses are under pressure to stay competitive and adapt to new technologies and markets. At the same time, workers are looking for jobs that are safe, fairly paid and that offer dignity and stability. The question is how these priorities come together in real workplaces and what role responsible businesses conduct can play in making that happen. To discuss this, I'm joined today by Mark Birrell, who is the president of the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, representing businesses of all sizes across Australia's economy. We have Abdul Ah Bana, who is the general secretary, excuse me, of the Ghana Mine Workers Union who will be bringing the perspective of workers from one of Africa's major mining sectors. And we have Gita Roelands, who is the unit head for multinational enterprises and RBC at the International Labor Organization. Welcome to all of you and thank you for being here. Mark, um, let me start with you. You are the president of Australia's largest business network of uh, businesses across all sectors of the economy. How do you see the link between responsible business conduct and productivity in real practice? And what makes that connection work well and what gets in the way?

Mark Birrell: It's an important discussion for all of us and that's where I welcome this. Today, um, 90% of the world's jobs are created in the private sector and most of those jobs are in small businesses. So the challenge is to ensure that we can have very responsible business conduct that connects us well with customers, with our employees, with any regulators in a national environment and also ensures that investors and suppliers are part of that responsible environment. I, um, think it can work very well and it should be in the interests of all of those parties to ensure that we do that well and then you get a productive outcome. Um, in a very practical sense, responsible business conduct creates trust and it reduces risk. And that's good for a business. It's good for it in a long term sense, which is what we would want to encourage, um, and if you uh, ensure that there's a high level of trust and a reduction of risk, an increase of training, um, an elimination of waste, then over time that will improve the productive environment of the nation or the state, uh, that is working in. Uh, as employers we seek to encourage that behaviour. And as employers we see a lot of very good examples of that working from my own country of Australia, I think it does. Uh, but we always have lessons to learn. Stronger, um, business performance is important because you want businesses to thrive so that they can employ more, so that they can take more from other suppliers which boosts their business. That's good for your economy. And if you get efficiency through that then that improves economic growth and employment growth. These are outcomes we all want.

Yvonne Bielavetia: Thanks for that Mark. Let's listen now to the workers. Um, Banna, ah, you come from one of the most important mining countries in Africa. From a worker's perspective, what does responsible business conduct actually look like on the ground? Um, what difference does it make in people's daily working lives?

Abdul Ah Bana: Thank you very much. Um, I must say that Ghana and by extension the uh, rest of Africa have gone through a lot of phases economically. And so from the era between 1960, 1970 it was predominantly state owned and so operations were state controlled. However, in the 80s we had what we call the uh, introduction of the economic Recovery Program which led to what we call the introduction of the Structural Adjustment Program. And that essentially was to shift the concentration from state owned government control to the private sector. And so you had a lot of uh, multinationals trooping into the Ghanaian economy. And so there were certain productive sectors of the economy, particularly the extractive sector, that became the preserve of private participation. And I must say that between the era 1960, 1970, when it was under state control to when you had the influx of foreign direct investment, um, legislation was really relatively very weak. Health and safety standards were very poor. Wages and salaries have stagnated for years. Um, generally if you look at the institutional framework it was also quite questionable. But with the uh, arrival of foreign direct investment we began to see um, some gradual shift from technically inefficiencies to efficiencies because then you had productivity going up, you also had legislation, new legislation coming into the sector and for that matter health and safety, um, wages and salaries of workers began to improve. And so between that era and when you have ah, arrival of foreign direct investment, that was what the scenario was between the 1980s up until date. A lot has happened. Um, you have today situations where with the arrival of foreign direct investment from the east and also with the advent of globalization and for that matter labor market policies that have traveled from the global north to the global south, um you have begun to see certain employment trends. And so you have ah fragmentation of production which has resulted in non standard forms of employment. You have casualization, you have flabilization. And so the general work environment has become quite um uncertain. And so level of precarity has gone up. Um workers unfortunately their ah respect for rights and freedoms have become quite challenged over the period. Um wages and salaries have gradually begun to stagnate owing to the fact that um you have all these non standard forms of employment in the system. So job security has become a challenge. Income security has become a challenge because um hitherto you had a permanent job but now as a result of outsourcing you have too many non standard forms of employment. In the mining industry in Ghana, for example, you have 90% of employment more or less in temporary, you know, engagements. And so um, you have situations where jobs are no longer secured, incomes are no longer secured, their right to freedom of association and collective bargaining, fundamental principles and rights at work have become undermined and challenged. And so responsible uh business conduct will require um a reversal in that current narrative. But until that is done, um, I must say that the current situation is quite precarious. It's become very problematic for workers in Ghana, not just in the Maya industry because it's symptomatic of the entire Ghanaian economy. And so you have too many jobs which are in temporary, you know, arrangements. And so guarantee to Social Security has also become a major challenge for workers in Ghana. But the good thing is that there is that conscientization. There's that consciousness from all the tropatite partners. And so we have begun to see some drive towards legislative reforms to ensure that um businesses behave more responsibly. They respect workers rights at least wages and salaries do not stagnate. Productivity goes hand in hand with the overall you know um, performance of workers by way of their wages and conditions of service. And so within the Ghanaian context and by extension uh, the African context, I must m say that uh, responsible business conduct is a major hot topic. It's a matter that requires um, all the trophy type partners working together to ensure that we change the narrative over time.

Yvonne Bielavetia: Thank you Bana for that interesting insight about um, that precarious labor um situation you describe. And uh, stressing the importance of tripartite um cooperation. Let's bring now in the ILO's policy and evidence based perspective into this conversation. Um, Gita, how should we understand the relationship between responsible business conduct and productivity? Um, under what conditions can responsible business, uh, conduct strengthened performance of enterprises and at the same time competitiveness?

Gita Roelands: Well, thank you very much, uh, for inviting also the ILO as the office to participate in this uh, conversation. And I would like to thank my fellow panelists Mark and Abdul, to also participate and give the perspectives of the employers and the workers, which are of course at the heart of these uh, discussions as well. And I very much like the question actually, or the topic. You have productivity at the one hand and responsible business conduct at the other. And very often they are seen as separate conversations. When we talk about productivity, it's very often how can we actually increase the productivity of SMEs? And I think that is also where a lot of the focus has been on, you know, productivity growth. How can you actually realize it? Whereas when we talk about responsible business conduct, very often we look at large companies that immediately fall under certain expectations and then how do you actually bring these agendas together? And I think that is what we are talking about today in this conversation. And it's clear that I would say responsible business conduct is both a, uh, driver for productivity, definitely when we talk about SMEs, because it can be an important driver. And at the same time when we talk about productivity enhancement is an important driver for more responsible business conduct. And especially when you bring them together through linkages of large enterprises that are also willing to share their own experiences in productivity enhancement, they can do that while they are engaging with suppliers in, in the context of a, um, supply chain context, also working on improving working conditions, um, and so on. They can be a really powerful driver. Now within the ILO context we have various frameworks, um, in relation to, at the one hand, responsible business conduct, and at the other hand I would say productivity, uh, enhancement. All of them are linked to the promotion of sustainable enterprises. And I think we should not forget, and I look at our director as well, uh, here in uh, participating in the audience. But it is really in sustainable enterprises that decent work really takes shape. And sustainable enterprises are enterprises that are of course economically, uh, resilient, successful, that have access to finance, that can create jobs, that can provide the good working conditions that are needed. They are also socially responsible and at the same time also environmentally sustainable. I think it brings together those three elements. And I will just quickly mention the ILO frameworks that we have in relation to responsible business conduct and productivity. Um, the ILO has a tripartite instrument, um, the tripartite, uh, Declaration of Principles concerning Multinational Enterprises and social policy, the ME declaration that is really the ILO's instrument to engage with government social partners and with enterprises on responsible business conduct. And I would say the whole social dimension of responsible business conduct, its aim is really to encourage the positive contribution of the private sector. And you mentioned it, Mark, already, the positive contribution of the private sector to inclusive economic growth and decent work and at the same time mitigating and resolving potential adverse issues, impacts of business operations. And we've seen over the years a lot of emphasis has gone now into the mitigating and resolving the adverse impact, specifically through due diligence processes. So we've lost a little bit the emphasis also on the importance of working together with SMEs, on dealing with some of the challenges that they have, not only in terms of compliance, but also in terms of really being able to grow and increase productivity so that they can offer good working conditions and so on. So this is an important element. We also have in the ilo, of course, um, um, the productivity ecosystems, um, for decent work, which is another framework that looks at the various um, ecosystems at the national sectoral and enterprise level, how all these elements need to come um, together to lead to decent work. And I think I will leave it here, uh, with this first question.

Yvonne Bielavetia: Thank you, Gita. Indeed, it's in sustainable enterprises where decent work takes shape. As you mentioned, um, we've heard from different uh, perspectives, business workers. And now we just heard from Gita and the ilo. Let's move from the generate picture to what is actually happening in practice. And uh, Mark, I may ask you first again one more time. Can you share with us and with the audience here a concrete example where business practice has improved productivity and working conditions. And tell us, walk us a bit through what made that possible and what can help it scale up well to

Mark Birrell: have a sustainable enterprise that you talk about. Um, I give an example in response to your question. Um, occupational health and safety is. And cooperation on a tripartite basis is, is a very clear example that if you get that right, then the business is more productive. Um, at the very obvious example, you don't want to have workplace injuries. No one gains out of that, everyone loses out of it. And if businesses can focus on improving their occupational health and safety practices and their culture, then you get the reward. I certainly think in, in Australia we have a good tripartite discussion on it. We have what you need, clear legislation, clear regulations and then good explanation. And if you have Those three, you're much more likely to increase standards. Uh, we had a debate here at the ILO two years ago and three years ago which helped in this area. And now we as a result I think have a better discussion about occupational health and safety as being a journey that we're all on. If you get that right, you improve product and of course your business is more sustainable, you build trust, um, and you ensure that you have a commitment of everyone to the business that you're trying to grow.

Yvonne Bielavetia: Thank you. Abdul, the same question, um, if you can give us an example, um, when productivity improves in your sector, um, do workers actually see that reflected in wages, safety, which Mark, uh, was just mentioning, and working conditions through responsible business conduct?

Abdul Ah Bana: Well, thank you very much. Um, interestingly the answer isn't an outright yes or no. Uh, but I would say that yes in a sense because um, there are enterprises that are very clear and understand that productivity is inextricably linked to wages, salaries, conditions of service and all that. And so within the Ghanaian context there are companies in the mining industry where I operate that are very sensitive to productivity induced wages and working conditions. And so you take for example a company like um, Goldfields. Goldfields is um, a South African mining company. Um, Goldfields just doesn't recognize workers by way of their uh, input which results in productivity and for that matter they get paid productivity enhanced uh, or induced bonuses at the end of the year they actually go the extra mile or the extra length of sharing profit. And so at the end of the year the company is able to declare profit and share portions of the profit with employees. Uh similarly there are other companies such as Ghana Manganese Company uh, CG Mining. These are uh, mining companies within the Ghanaian ecosystem which are very attentive to productivity induced um, wages and therefore for that matter conditions of service. And so you have some of these companies that ab initio appreciate the relationship between productivity, wages and working conditions. And so overall what I can say for a fact is that the Ghana Mine Workers Union, being the representative of the workers, um, has been very resolute in negotiating conditions of service that correspond to productivity metrics. So that at the end of the day the best interest of workers are always protected.

Yvonne Bielavetia: Thank you Abdul for that. And um, Gitam, going back to you, let's bring again the tripartite conversation into this. How might the tripartite constituents um, work together in national context to foster greater synergies between responsible business conduct and productivity improvement?

Gita Roelands: Yes, I think it was already mentioned also by Mark the importance of uh, Social partners, government coming together, I would say at the national level, but also the sectoral level. And we can even, and I think that's equally important how management um, and the workers actually come together to see what productivity improvements can actually be realized. And secondly how can you come to a more fair sharing of the benefits that are actually realized through enhanced competitiveness that actually um, when you talk about enhanced productivity should lead to enhanced um, competitiveness and access to markets also for companies. And then how do you actually share this um, in a more fair uh way with the workers as well? And you talked about it, uh, increasing wages. We could also start investing more in training opportunities so that uh, innovation, all of these important elements that help also the company to continue to grow. But of course you need to bring those elements together of responsible business conduct. What you want to promote, as I said, the positive contribution of business to socioeconomic development and decent work and how to make sure you don't have an adverse impact. And it also means providing support to enterprises to indeed go into that direction. And their tripartite constituents have an important role to play through the follow up mechanism of the M and E Declaration. We have a uh, mechanism with national focal points, the country level, um, where tripartite constituents come together, they start to identify which are uh, specific priorities that uh, they could start working on together in the context of Ghana. And I think I'm very pleased to have Ghana actually on the panel because Ghana does have national focal points for the promotion of the M and E Declaration. It's tripartite plus because it also involves the Ghana Investment Promotion Agency which is there also to simulate linkages between multinational enterprises, local businesses. So that you also have this kind of um, transfer of technology, uh, transfer of production systems. All of this that can actually lead to enhanced um, productivity, competitiveness, access to markets and of course linked to responsible business conduct. But social dialogue is critical whether it happens at the national level, at the sectoral level and also at the enterprise level. And there is something in the context also of responsible business conduct that we have specifically in the M and E Declaration. And it talks about when you do your due diligence processes to identify risks, mitigate, resolve um, these risks. Um, a very important component. There is meaningful engagement with uh, rights holders, including of course with workers and their representative organizations. And that really shows how that mechanism of engagement between management and the workers to jointly identify potential adverse impacts. But also it can be identifying, you mentioned occupational safety and health. I mean that can be a risk for the company if it is not um, putting in place the right structures but at the same time it's a very important element to enhance productivity. So when these come together and there is uh, an open, and I uh, would say a uh, really meaningful engagement between management and the workers to jointly identify where are some risks but at the same time what is the potential to also enhance productivity, then that is also the way to move forward in a more collective way at the enterprise level and it can translate itself at the sectoral level when we are dealing with broader issues and then of course also at the national level. So social dialogue, I would say at all levels is key.

Yvonne Bielavetia: Yeah, I think you just said it. There's some very important points, social dialogue and uh, meaningful engagement. Let's try now to take this conversation going forward and um, to see what would strengthen that connection. And I'm going to start again with you Mark. Um, looking ahead, what are the biggest gaps, um, that still need to be addressed? Better to align productivity and responsible business conduct?

Mark Birrell: Uh, there are many. But at the heart of getting sustainable businesses is them knowing what path they're on and whether that is a shared path with the regulators in their environment or the governments in their environment. If there is a long term commitment in their state or region or territory or nation which says we want to grow businesses, particularly small businesses because they're the great employers, if there's a long term commitment to that and that we're going to try and make out the best way that you can employ extra people, you can meet the needs of your customers, then you will get a changed environment. It's when there's uncertainty or lots of changing rules or lots of extra charges that small businesses in particular retreat. And they say, well, we can't cope with everything you're wanting of us and everything we want to do and therefore that certainty of rules and the long term objective, um, the best example that comes to mind for me is a shared objective about training, about the nation or state having a view that we want to up the skills of our people. We want to make sure they've got 12 years of uh, primary and secondary schooling or the equivalent. We want to help them if they wish to go to technical or universities and therefore get a higher skilled environment. That means businesses have got great people to employ. That's how it helps. And all of a sudden you've got everyone saying, oh, I can see the outcome of this. Better training, better education, better standards. And the employers, particularly small businesses, say I could get exactly the type of person I need for my business and the Customer's saying I don't know how you did it but it seems to be working better. Um, that's a shared objective. Um, and I stress small and medium sized businesses because they're the most common business in the world. We often talk about large corporations. Um, they find it slightly easier to do all of this. It's the others that have to be helped along and we need that common shared long term vision that, and then they could be part of it.

Yvonne Bielavetia: Thank you. Long term, common vision. You also mentioned clarity of rules, Abdul. Um, what is the single most important change that would make the biggest difference, um, in terms of workers and ensuring that productivity gains translate into decent work?

Abdul Ah Bana: Yeah, thank you very much. I think that um, I'll start by associating myself fully with Mark. Submission. Submission on uh, training as workers. The uh, world of work continues to evolve. Indeed with the advent uh, of artificial intelligence, robotization and all the new phenomena happening within the world of work, workers are obviously going to have serious challenges going into the future. And so there's an agent need for workers to be uh, retooled so that uh, we can take full advantage of um, the opportunities that will be presented in the new world of work. And so training becomes extremely crucial to prepare not just the present but the future workforce for the labor market. Aside that one other very critical driver of all of this is social dialogue. And indeed um, she touched eloquently on social dialogue. Social dialogue ought to be strengthened. In Ghana for example, um, our legislation actually um, has provision on national tripartite social dialogue. But at a sectorial level it's quite sparse. And so sectorial social dialogue is extremely important. And so we are looking at how we can institutionalize sectorial social dialogue, uh, and ensure that the tripartite partners at that level can engage more effectively and deal with issues that are ah, of mutual concern and interest. And we believe that if we get around the table and we're able to discuss matters of mutual interest, uh, it will go a long way to enhance and strengthen responsible business conduct and for that matter decent work in the industry and by extension the economy.

Yvonne Bielavetia: Thank you, Gita. You were nodding uh, when Abdul, uh, was mentioning social dialogue. The importance of social dialogue. In your view, what is the single most important factor in making sure that productivity growth and responsible business conduct translate into better jobs and better working conditions.

Gita Roelands: So I'm actually not going to use one uh, terminology but I think we need to talk about policy. Coherence is for me a critical component. And the other one is collective action because first of all, policy coherence is very important because we cannot say at the one hand, responsible business conduct is just about due diligence and compliance. And those that cannot comply, well, sorry, you know, we cut ties and then we leave it. It's actually about supporting then those that are, you know, having some challenges. And it can be related to productivity challenges can be related to others. But how do you actually them, how do you put in place a, ah, conducive environment for sustainable enterprises so that indeed they can actually, uh, make progress and not just comply, but actually even have a lot of opportunities to grow and become more competitive and resilient and have access to markets? I think that is a critical component. And the other hand is, um, collective action. And, um, I think we've discussed this many times before, but there are very clear roles for legislators. You mentioned it. I mean, the government has an important role to play. Social partners have an important role to play. And companies themselves are very important actors. And it's only when you bring those together to jointly address common challenges that you can really get things moving. And I think that is what we all should strive for. The ILO has, you know, very good mechanisms to bring together the social partners, the government, to collectively look at what the challenges are, what the opportunities are, develop jointly, roadmaps, again with very clear responsibilities and commitments. Um, and then, um, you know, identify really what is needed and who is going to do this and not just then make commitments, but also follow up on them. And that is sometimes where we can need, we definitely need more action. Very often we see beautiful roadmaps that are being developed, but then what needs to happen is the real work and the continued engagement of all partners to make the difference and make progress.

Yvonne Bielavetia: Thank you. The continued engagement of all partners and I think we can leave it there. Thank you to the three of you for this very, uh, rich and grounded discussion. Um, we've heard today that, uh, productivity and responsible business conduct do not need to be in tension. When the conditions are right, they can reinforce each other, supporting stronger businesses and better jobs. Uh, we've heard clear and predictable public policies, collective action, strong institution, effective dialogue between governments, employees and workers, and attention to the real conditions, uh, of firms and workers. Thank you for listening to this edition of the ILO's Future of Work podcast series. Um, be sure to tune in again. Um, as we continue to explore the major transformation shaping the world of work today. You can follow us online at ILO on X TikTok, YouTube@ILO.org on Facebook, Instagram threads and Bluesky and at the International Labor Organization on LinkedIn. Thank you for listening and we look forward to welcoming you again soon. Goodbye.