Decent work in the platform economy: how a new global labour standard can help make it a reality

Speaker A: Welcome to the ilo future of work podcast. I am yvonne bielawitia. Today we're discussing a major milestone for the world of the adoption of ILO Convention Number 193 on Decent Work in the Platform Economy, the first international labor standard dedicated to the platform economy. Digital label platforms have changed the way many people work and earn a living. They have created opportunities for innovation and flexibility, while also raising important questions about workers rights, social protection, occupational safety and health remuneration, and the use of automated systems. To help us understand what this international labour standard means in practice, we're joined today by Patrick Belsner, who is chief of the Inclusive Labour Markets, Wages and Working Conditions branch at the ILO in Geneva, where he leads the work on digital work platforms and other subjects such as living wages. Welcome Patrick.

Speaker B: Thank you. Good morning, Ivan.

Speaker A: During this episode, we will also hear excerpts from government employer and worker representatives who participated in the discussions leading to the adoption of the convention at the International Labor Conference. Let's begin with the basics. When we talk about the platform economy, what exactly do we mean?

Speaker B: Yes, good question. Um, well, we mean the new part of the economy which has been enabled by technology and which happens through digital platforms, or if you want some digital interface which is positioned really between the people who provide the services or the goods and the clients. So, uh, there are many examples. Uh, E Commerce for example, is an example where you would buy food or you buy a book through a platform. Um, also transportation, you may order transportation through a platforms. And even the social media is part of the platform economy. Now what we have been dealing with in this convention is a subset of the platform economy where uh, technology is used, where automated systems are used in order to organize or facilitate work. And so that kind of work you find, um, in different places. So some of the platform work is really location based. So if you're doing food delivery, you've got to be in a particular place. If you're doing transport, passenger transportation as well, you could also do domestic workers care work. All these people will, uh, be digital platform workers, uh, who will be in a particular location. Then you have also those people who are much less visible who work on their computers in their homes. And this is the web based platform economy where you might be a freelancer or you might be doing micro tasks, uh, identifying images or doing a small amount, uh, of repetitive tasks, uh, sometimes. And the new convention is, uh, covering all these different types of digital labor platforms and digital platform workers.

Speaker A: Different type of workers, as you said. How significant is platform work today? Where are these Workers found. And what is the importance of platform work in today's economy?

Speaker B: The significance of platform worker has been growing exponentially in recent years. Also with, uh, Covid, of course was a uh, big trigger point for the expansion of the platform economy. And you will find it basically everywhere. You will find it in rich countries, in poor countries, uh, in all the different parts of the world, uh, with some different levels of, uh, presence, let's say sometimes more, um, bigger platform economy in some countries than in others. But uh, it's really there everywhere and it's in expansion. Uh, in terms of how many people work on the platform economy, uh, it's not so easy to actually know. The European institutions believe that there are about 40 million digital platform workers in Europe. In China, there is an estimate about 85 million workers doing this kind of work in China. And globally you have numbers ranging from hundreds, 50 millions to 400 millions but in reality we don't really know. And uh, I think this is also a big opportunity now for the ILO to get more involved in better measurement of the platform economy. So that would be working with member, uh, states who want to know how many of their workers work through platforms and uh, developing perhaps labor force surveys with special uh, methodologies, uh, where we could better understand how many people work on platforms but also how they work. Because some people work full time on platforms, it's their main job, it's their main revenues. Many others work um, part time on platforms and sometimes they complement their remunerations with this kind of work. So you want to know how much these people work as well. And one complication that we have also in measuring the platform economy is that workers have different employment statuses. So you have some workers who are employees, uh, employed by the digital platforms, but many others are uh, independent contractors and so they don't appear in the list of employees of the platform. So that's an added challenge. But uh, this work is really important and we want to start it as soon as possible.

Speaker A: Let's now hear an excerpt from Colin Jordan, who is a, uh, government representative and chairperson of the committee that led the UM negotiations on the convention.

Speaker C: We discussed the opportunities that the platform economy creates, including opportunities for innovation, flexibility and formalization. We also discussed the challenges including rights at work, social protection, occupational safety and health remuneration, automated systems, and the importance of a human centered approach in a rapidly changing world of work.

Speaker A: My question to you, Patrick. Um, Colin highlighted both the opportunities and challenges created by the platform economy. How does the new standard address this?

Speaker B: Uh, that's also a very good question. Uh, I would like to say or start the response by reminding um, the people who listen to us that we uh, are a tripartite organization. And so the negotiation of um, this new convention was done with the participation of governments, all kind of governments, you know, the north, south, east, west, but also uh, with the very active and strong participations of workers and employers. And so the convention is an end product of all these negotiations, um, where the, the parties that negotiate have different perspectives on the platform economy and on what this convention should, should be. So I want, I would like to put forward the idea that the outcome here is a very balanced outcome in terms of the convention because it is based on uh, the views that have been exchanged, the compromises that have been made which reflect both the need to take these challenges and to use these opportunities, uh, that are provided by the digital platforms, but at the same time to strengthen the protection of workers who work on them. So the idea is really not to stifle innovation or uh, uh, to reduce the size of the platform economy. On the contrary, it's to make sure that when the platform economy grows the workers also benefit in terms of better protection. And the preamble of M. The convention I think shows this idea very clearly. It identifies that the platform economy has created opportunities for business, it has created employment, it has created new ways, possible ways to formalize workers and uh, enterprises. At the same time it recognizes that the decent work deficits, which is why uh, the adoption of the standard was really necessary. And if you allow me, I'd like to give another example which is perhaps particularly important. Um, it's the articles that were negotiated on the impact of the use of automated systems. So this is really something new in an ILO convention that we going to discuss algorithms and automated systems. I think that what we have here we have a very balanced approach. It does not prohibit anybody from using automated systems. It doesn't require from anybody to reveal commercial secrets. But there are a number of things that are expected from the platforms which are to inform workers that such automated systems are used, uh, to also allow workers upon uh, request to receive an explanation when some important conditions have changed and if the workers are deactivated, that they can expect a response from the platforms, uh, and a response which is reviewed with human involvement, not just a machine providing a response to the workers who have been deactivated. And in addition also the platforms have to make uh, responsible use of these uh, automated systems. So we think that this is very reasonable. It's not about regulating the technology, it's about regulating the impact of the technology on working conditions. And uh, it should uh, be sufficiently flexible to allow both the use of opportunities, continue to building up those opportunities, but also protecting workers from some possible abuses.

Speaker A: Indeed, as you mentioned, the idea is not to stifle innovation, but to ensure that workers benefited from it. While we will now hear from Ewa Stavorinska, who is the employer vice chairperson who participated in the discussions that led to the adoption of the convention as well,

Speaker D: the success of this convention will ultimately not be measured by the negotiations we concluded yesterday, but by whether it improves outcomes in practice, whether it helps workers access opportunities, whether it supports entrepreneurship, whether it encourages innovation and whether it strengthens sustainable enterprises, and whether it allows the Platform M economy to continue contributing to economic inclusion and growth.

Speaker A: Building on airware's points that the success of the Convention will be measured by its impact in practice, what could this look like, uh, and how can the Convention support entrepreneurship, innovation and sustainable enterprises?

Speaker B: Well let me say first of all that Eva is completely right. The success of the convention will depend on its impact uh, on the ground, uh, in the real economy. And this in turn will depend on the number of countries that are going to ratify this convention. So this is very important that we are able to secure a significant number of ratifications and also those countries that will not ratify we hope will be inspired by the text of the convention and uh, use it as guidance for developing their own regulations. So overall I'm very optimistic that uh, we will have uh, a lot of interest on this convention and we hope we're going to have a good ratification rate. We've seen in the work um, of the preparation to this convention that we have received a lot, a lot of questions and responses from governments from all over the world because many of these governments are currently regulating. It's a new phenomenon. So there is a lot of interest and uh, uh, I think uh, a lot of governments are looking at the ILO to see this guidance. We are the UN Agency for labor issues. So it's quite natural that they expect the ILO to take a position through this convention in particular. And um, I'm also optimistic that this convention will have a big impact because it is relatively uh, flexible and principles based convention. So it states some principles but it doesn't prescribe, is not very prescriptive and doesn't prescribe how the government should implement those principles. So for example, when it comes to the fundamental principles and rights at work to be guaranteed and uh, to be respected and promoted and realized in the platform economy. How this will be done is up to the countries themselves. So this was also the kind of the secret, uh, to be able to actually get that convention agreed that we focus on the principles, but we don't enter in too many details where we would have lost uh, a lot of the, of the country support. I think you know, on the question you ask about entrepreneurship, innovation, sustainable enterprises, I would like to highlight in addition to the fact that the convention is quite principles based, but the article about the, the classification of the status of workers as being uh, in an employment relationship or not in an employment relationship. And here we have agreed that um, the status and employer of workers should be classified mainly uh, according to the facts of the work that they do. But we're not prescribing that they should all be employees or we are not having a presumption that they should all be employees. So it's also a convention that respects the diversity of the platform economy, uh, and accepts that some workers will be employees and some workers will be independent contractors or self employed. And uh, that flexibility will also be very uh, important to support entrepreneurship and innovation I think. Plus there is an article in the convention which also supports the creation of uh, decent employment in the platform economy. And so this is also something that is encouraged m in the convention.

Speaker A: A principle based um, um convention, but flexible as you said. And a lot of governments are looking at the ILO for guidance. Let's now hear from Amanda Brown, who's the worker vice chairperson.

Speaker D: For the first time in the history of international law, the women and men who move our cities, who carry our meals through the rain, who clean and care in our homes, who label the data that trains our machines, and who answer the call of an app at every hour of the day and night, these workers will be named, recognized and protected by a binding international standard. Today they cease to be invisible women

Speaker A: and men who carry our meals through the rain. Um, as Amanda just said, how does the convention address some of the challenges faced by platform workers, including those who work, whose work is often invisible.

Speaker B: Very beautiful words there by uh, Amanda. Uh, I would say that first of all the fact that this convention now exists gives visibility to these workers, uh, the digital platform workers. They are recognized by an international convention. And uh, that is very important. The convention covers all digital platform workers. This is also very important. So it covers those who work in a particular place like delivering food or transportation, but also all of those who work in front of their computers and who are very invisible workforce.

Speaker D: Uh,

Speaker B: so I think uh, that is an element of the convention which contributes to strengthening the protection, the labor protection for these workers. Um, and now on how the convention really does so. Uh, it does so in many different ways, but I would like to highlight some areas where the Convention establishes uh, protections and strong protection for workers. So first of all it's uh, by requiring from members to respect, promote and uh, realize fundamental principles and rights at work for the platform economy. This is very important. We have a, uh, number of uh, articles that address the working conditions of the platform workers and offer protection in the area of occupational safety and health of um, the correct classification with regard to the existence or non existence of an employment relationship, so remuneration or payments, the access to Social Security, the data protection for platform workers, and also uh, the prohibition, uh, of the suspension and deactivation of platform workers accounts, uh, if those are based on discriminatory grounds or uh, if they are unlawful. So I think if you read the text you will see there's quite, uh, a number of articles in there which offer a comprehensive protection for digital platform workers.

Speaker A: You mentioned, um, all these protections. How does the Convention help ensure that these rights are respected in practice?

Speaker B: So that is of course a question that will apply to all the conventions of the ilo. But uh, now our member states will implement those that ratify the convention will implement it, uh, in consultation with the most representative, uh, organizations of workers and employers through legislation, new laws, regulations. Social partners will also implement the convention through collective bargaining agreements. And there may also be judgments uh, in courts of laws. And so all of this, uh, you know, these uh, processes are going to translate the convention from what it is now an international convention at an international level onto uh, its application in the countries that have decided to ratify the supervisory system. Uh, is there also, uh, to help with implementation. But then we also have within the convention an article that guarantees access, uh, to safe, fair and effective dispute resolution mechanisms. So we hope that um, this will set the basis for well enforced and uh, respected, uh, protections.

Speaker A: Let's hear again from Colin Jordan, um, the government representative and chairperson of the committee.

Speaker C: The platform economy is largely a phenomenon shaped by younger generations. Millions of young people earn their livelihoods through digital labor platforms. Many of them are not following our debates, they're not following our amendments, they're not following our voting records. But they do care about whether the institutions that represent, represent them are capable of addressing the realities they face.

Speaker A: Okay, the convention now has been adopted, but what happens next, uh, from ratification by member states to implementation, could you walk us through the process.

Speaker B: Yes, of course. So under the ilo, uh, constitution, member states now have an obligation to bring uh, the convention to the attention, uh, of their competent authorities. So that would normally be uh, a national parliament and uh, also to determine whether the country will ratify the convention or whether there uh, is a need for some legal adjustments or for some measures before the country can ratify. So that is going to take a little while and uh, in the meantime the ILO will promote the ratification of uh, this convention and its implementation. We have decided that this will be a priority, uh, in the course of this and next year. And so we have a lot of offices around the world. We have regional offices, country offices, which will also promote this uh, convention, uh, in the countries with which they work. Uh, and the ILO on its side will try to develop a global program to support our constituents, which are governments, employers organizations and workers organizations, uh, to implement, maybe start, implement some provisions of the Convention, even though the Convention may not have been ratified. So that is always upon the demand of uh, the member States that we provide our technical assistance. But we have already received a lot of requests and so the main challenge will be for the ILO to be up to the level to provide that support. That is expected from our members.

Speaker A: This brings us to the end of our uh, podcast. As we have heard, convention number 193 represents an important milestone not only for the platform economy, but also for the broader world of work. It demonstrates how governments, employers and workers can come together through social dialogue to address new challenges arising from technological change and shape a human centered digital transition. A thanks go to Patrick Dulce, Chief of the Inclusive Labour Market Wages and Working Conditions Branch at the ilo, for helping us understand what this new international labour standard means in practice. You can learn more about the convention number 193 on the ILO's work on the Platform Economy on the ILO website. Thank you for listening. You can follow us on social media, on YouTube, Facebook and LinkedIn at International Labor Organization and on Instagram X Bluesky and threads@ilo.org. and for now it's goodbye and see you soon for another episode of the ILO Future of Work podcast.